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Offlinejdawg333
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Psychedelics vs. Dreams * 1
    #26842277 - 07/24/20 09:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think the strongest connection to psychedelics we have without drugs is through dreaming. That is, dreaming can be just as strong and educational and bizarre as tripping but because it happens during sleep it can be easy to forget them or not attribute much importance to them

I will frequently have very bizarre dreams where I'm either acting like myself but put into a wide variety of strange, disconnected situations in which I am having full conversations, I'm trying to do something that just won't work, or I will have 'out of body' type experiences if I begin to realize that I am dreaming. That last part reminds me of 'ego death', or the out of body experiences I can get while tripping when I start to realize that everything is more or less an illusion whether I'm tripping or not.

Much like tripping they leave me very refreshed and feeling as though my life is a gift. They tend to be so jumbled and confusing and nerve wracking that I am almost always thankful to be back in my bed after they are done, and can give me an interesting perspective on the day and what I've been worrying about. Tripping has some differences because you're awake, but I think the benefits, the chances of it going south vs. going beautifully, the kind of bizarre things I see, and the jumbling and rearranging of memories and random thoughts and things from recent days/weeks are almost exactly similar between tripping and dreaming. Even the loops feel similar.

What kind of connections have you noticed between tripping and dreaming? I think tripping might be a sort of waking dream, but there isn't really science to back that up. It's all based on the similarity of the experiences and the meanings of the experiences.


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OfflineKorean Jesus
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: jdawg333]
    #26842299 - 07/24/20 09:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Dreams cannot make use of the childlike impressionability so special in trips. While tripping your beliefs are so easily mendable it brings you to new places. Unfortunately while dreaming your thought is not nearly as deep and you cannot make use of the impressionability that it also gives.


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:rastamon::getstoned::rastamon:


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Offlinejdawg333
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: Korean Jesus]
    #26842308 - 07/24/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I feel a little different. I think something interesting about dreams is the fact that I will often act in a different way in the dream than I would in real life. I can see ridiculous things and not bat an eye, or attribute quite a bit of meaning to a relatively tame event. In my mind this reflects the impressionability of tripping too

I also think dreams are always so much more important and meaningful to the dreamer, than the person you explain the dream to. They weren't in the same head space, so to them it sounds like nonsense. In that way I think it's like tripping. I think dreams can go ridiculously deep if you are sensitive or 'let them'


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OfflineKorean Jesus
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: jdawg333]
    #26842389 - 07/24/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jdawg333 said:
dreams are always so much more important and meaningful to the dreamer, than the person you explain the dream to. They weren't in the same head space, so to them it sounds like nonsense. In that way I think it's like tripping. I think dreams can go ridiculously deep if you are sensitive or 'let them'




Totally agree with this. I just feel like equating trips to dreams is like equating harvard to elementary school. You cannot process the dream in the same way.

Also, at the higher dosages, the things you see/experience on trips are far more complex and outside the realm of imagination than a dream. It's simply more foreign.


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:rastamon::getstoned::rastamon:


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: jdawg333]
    #26842399 - 07/24/20 10:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thing for me is, I don’t remember my dreams. Only very rarely. I remember almost all of my trips. Not the fine details, but a heck of a lot more than dreams??

Mush love
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26842421 - 07/24/20 10:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

as rare as it is to bring back souvenirs form your dreams it is just as rare to bring back souvenirs from drug experiences to an everyday mind.

This is especially true if the amnesia barrier is involved (impenetrably layered signal density), but also simply due to the strangeness of so many layers which is alien to waking mentality
- when straight it is hard to line find associations in memory that have enough critical resonance density to bring stoned or dream images to the foreground of thinking.

however when stoned or dreaming again, these recollections are a snap!


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblemt cleverest
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26842459 - 07/24/20 10:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes a salvialand experience for instance is very much like dream space in that it can be hard to fully recall. Salvia has its own personality but it is very much a dive into the unconscious. The goddess is an archetype not just of the plant.
I feel like a breakthrough level dose on any psych is going to get quite dreamlike, whatever that means seeing as dreams can sometimes seem just as real or more real than everyday waking life.
Dreamwork or psychedelics they are both what Jung called  the royal road, the way toward marrying conscious and unconscious


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: jdawg333]
    #26842498 - 07/24/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think there's any connection between psychedelics and dreams, other than sometimes I dream about psychedelics. Aside from that, I don't really see any similarity or relationship between them.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: nooneman]
    #26842563 - 07/24/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

OP, I relate entirely.

I find dreaming & tripping to be closely related.  Birds of a feather- cut from the same cloth. Etc etc
In my experience, The higher the dose of psychedelics the more clear it becomes that it’s just like dream.  I’ve had dreams just like trips & trips just like dreams.
I’ve had trips more like dreams and dreams more like trips.  After I really upped it, any other trip, no matter the dose, I can recognize the dreamlike nature of it.  And that’s comforting.  I’m not confused over the nature of psychedelic drug experiences.  I know.

And to reply to someone else, yes they can most definitely have that special childlike impressionability to them.

They both have an ineffable quality to them.
They both are transient delusive & illusory experiences
If we understand appropriately the experience can shed light- or- if we misunderstand the experience can further obfuscate. 
We are either beguiled & fooled by the appearances in the experience, or we are lucid & clear about the nondual nature of the dream/trip.
They both are absent to the objective world, yet apparent to the intersubjective mind.  Non-existent, yet, perceptible.
Like sweet dreams & nightmares, tripping is often intellectually divided into good trips & bad trips.
Both are mirror-like experiences of the world, our nature, conscience, heart & mind.
Both can evoke the mundane & supramundane.
Both can relay important information & messages, be insightful & revelatory, or both can be nonsensical.
Both are the ordinary brain/mind & imagination on steroids/drugs
Both can be deeply emotionally cathartic.
Both can impact & influence long after the experience is over - for better or worse.
Both hallucinogenic and ultimately private experiences and any meaning from it makes sense only to the one from which they came.

Astral projection/ Out of body experiences.  Lucid dreams. Etc.  Let me further make a point by quoting a passage from Longchenpa/Dowman.
Where the word dream appears - pretend it says dream and tripping.  This meditation works for & applies to both experiences/dreams & trips.

***
/begin

At first we may dream many fearful dreams,
but mindful of the dream the fear dissolves of itself;
when natural concentration is effortlessly achieved the yogin knows his dream as lucid dream.
Thereafter the sole practice is to see all dream as unreal. The absent but apparent delusory mind,
like dream, has no essence to grasp,
and we know it beyond intellectual truth and falsehood.

Then, regarding the process of transforming emanation:
in dream-time, to transform the body into Brahma, for instance, or to emanate as a buddha or bodhisattva,
we simply relax with our wish into ambivalent space.

Like that, from moment to moment- from Brahma to Indra,
from god to man- whatever transformation we desire
is accomplished in an unreal world.

Furthermore, now multiplying those forms
a hundred, a thousand, or ten million-fold,
we develop the facility to heal wherever needed.

Further, we travel wherever we wish,
to pure lands, to foreign countries, or to Akanishta•
where we see buddhas and hear their impeccable word
and achieve jnana and samadhi and multitudes of dakinis.
Through thorough integrated practice day and night,
the creativity of pure presence will surely manifest, the core undistorted, infallibly actualized:
that is the most profound way of the heart.

Day and night, familiarising ourselves with the dream world,
the shackles of belief in concrete materiality are shaken off; enclosures,
mountains and walls now form no impediment and miracles, psychic powers and samadhis are actualized.
With deep experience of this direct and naked realization, primal awareness, empty and luminous, dawns
and in the primordial spaciousness of the nature of mind both subjective dharmakaya, and objective rupakaya,"
are spontaneously accomplished as in a dream.
Apply concentrated attention to the dream-mode!

*** / end.

In exactly the same way that LSD, Mescaline, DMT, & Psilocybin all make us trip, The trips are synonymous but not identical.
Dreaming & Tripping are synonymous but not identical. 
They go perfectly hand & hand. Imho&e.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (07/24/20 12:53 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26842591 - 07/24/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I will go further to say, that
REM -dreaming- sleep comes after unconsciousness or blackout and will be followed by waking up (and remembering elements of the dream) or resuming unconsciousness without dreaming.

Similarly, with Salvia (and other psychedelics), at either side of blackout or whiteout, intense visionary experiences will occur, with an intensely dream like quality to them.

at lesser dosages, psychedelics occasionally present some of the charm that we enjoy in dreams, but it is at the extreme sides of unconsciousness that the similarities shine.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (07/24/20 02:51 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Psychedelics vs. Dreams [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26842615 - 07/24/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well said.:cheers:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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