|
Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26838640 - 07/22/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said: I agree Alex Jones spreads false info and I'm no fan but I havent seen any evidence that hes incited harrassment.
I dont hold Bernie Sanders accountable for his supporter that shot up a congressional baseball game and I dont hold Alex Jones accountable for something his crazy fans did.
Sure, maybe saying that he incited harassment is too strong of wording. I was specifically referring to him calling the parents of school shooting victims "crisis actors", to which his fans responded by harassing some of them. You're right, in that case he didn't tell anyone to harass anyone. Nevertheless, it was reckless of him to say that, and it falls under the "spreading false info" category.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
|
BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 6 hours, 25 minutes
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
#26838642 - 07/22/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said: I agree Alex Jones spreads false info and I'm no fan but I havent seen any evidence that hes incited harrassment.
I dont hold Bernie Sanders accountable for his supporter that shot up a congressional baseball game and I dont hold Alex Jones accountable for something his crazy fans did.
Sure, maybe saying that he incited harassment is too strong of wording. I was specifically referring to him calling the parents of school shooting victims "crisis actors", to which his fans responded by harassing some of them. You're right, in that case he didn't tell anyone to harass anyone. Nevertheless, it was reckless of him to say that, and it falls under the "spreading false info" category.
agreed on the spreading of false info. just not on the "incitement"
|
Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,534
Last seen: 43 minutes, 2 seconds
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26838916 - 07/22/20 05:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said: I agree Alex Jones spreads false info and I'm no fan but I havent seen any evidence that hes incited harrassment.
I dont hold Bernie Sanders accountable for his supporter that shot up a congressional baseball game and I dont hold Alex Jones accountable for something his crazy fans did.
Just by labeling these people crisis actors that were in a giant conspiracy and their kids didn’t really die made his base harass the shit out of victims parents he didn’t tell them to do it directly but that was his message was these people are the sum ruining America and let them fill in the blanks. His fans aren’t exactly the most rational bunch and whether he intended to or not he caused those parents harassment directly . If there was no Alex Jones I’m the picture those people would not have been harrassed. The reason you don’t blame Bernie Sanders is because he never put out anything that would’ve led to that man shooting up that game. Alex Jones put out everything except saying go harass these people but his constant rhetoric that all these dead kids parents were crisis actors and enemies of America led directly to those parents being harrassed while they hadn’t even buried their children. Fuck him
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
|
BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 6 hours, 25 minutes
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26838975 - 07/22/20 06:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said: I agree Alex Jones spreads false info and I'm no fan but I havent seen any evidence that hes incited harrassment.
I dont hold Bernie Sanders accountable for his supporter that shot up a congressional baseball game and I dont hold Alex Jones accountable for something his crazy fans did.
Just by labeling these people crisis actors that were in a giant conspiracy and their kids didn’t really die made his base harass the shit out of victims parents he didn’t tell them to do it directly but that was his message was these people are the sum ruining America and let them fill in the blanks. His fans aren’t exactly the most rational bunch and whether he intended to or not he caused those parents harassment directly . If there was no Alex Jones I’m the picture those people would not have been harrassed. The reason you don’t blame Bernie Sanders is because he never put out anything that would’ve led to that man shooting up that game. Alex Jones put out everything except saying go harass these people but his constant rhetoric that all these dead kids parents were crisis actors and enemies of America led directly to those parents being harrassed while they hadn’t even buried their children. Fuck him
There is a strict legal standard for incitement. Alex Jones did not meet the criterea.
You could argue that his language was defamatory but he didnt incite anything and hes not responsible for anything he didnt incite just like Bernie.
I dont like him either. But I would never accuse someone of something without evidence simply because I dont like him or hold him accountable for the behavioir of his fans while not holding others to the same standard. thats dishonest.
|
Shiithead
Your Huckleberry



Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26838986 - 07/22/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I think anyone ought to say anything. Including fire and bomb in a crowded area.
I'm a fundementalist on freedom of speech.
--------------------
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Psalm 12:6 The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
|
Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Shiithead]
#26838992 - 07/22/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Censorship is the devil’s handiwork.. no bueno..
--------------------
Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
|
Darwin23
INFJ



Registered: 10/08/10
Posts: 3,279
Loc: United States
Last seen: 15 days, 23 hours
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Srirachi]
#26839136 - 07/22/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Yup. I support the right to full-on hate speech and I also support the right of people to listen to and spread the idiotic teachings of Qanon. I'm not for policing speech in any form. I do, though feel that businesses have the right to delete whatever accounts they feel like. I'm a strong supporter of the boog types and it sucks that Facebook purged their accounts but it was their right.
--------------------
Take a look at my journal
|
Seriously_trippin
Cosmic Guru Ganesh



Registered: 07/12/13
Posts: 14,534
Last seen: 43 minutes, 2 seconds
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: BANANA.MAN]
#26839178 - 07/22/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said:
Quote:
Seriously_trippin said:
Quote:
BANANA.MAN said: I agree Alex Jones spreads false info and I'm no fan but I havent seen any evidence that hes incited harrassment.
I dont hold Bernie Sanders accountable for his supporter that shot up a congressional baseball game and I dont hold Alex Jones accountable for something his crazy fans did.
Just by labeling these people crisis actors that were in a giant conspiracy and their kids didn’t really die made his base harass the shit out of victims parents he didn’t tell them to do it directly but that was his message was these people are the sum ruining America and let them fill in the blanks. His fans aren’t exactly the most rational bunch and whether he intended to or not he caused those parents harassment directly . If there was no Alex Jones I’m the picture those people would not have been harrassed. The reason you don’t blame Bernie Sanders is because he never put out anything that would’ve led to that man shooting up that game. Alex Jones put out everything except saying go harass these people but his constant rhetoric that all these dead kids parents were crisis actors and enemies of America led directly to those parents being harrassed while they hadn’t even buried their children. Fuck him
There is a strict legal standard for incitement. Alex Jones did not meet the criterea.
You could argue that his language was defamatory but he didnt incite anything and hes not responsible for anything he didnt incite just like Bernie.
I dont like him either. But I would never accuse someone of something without evidence simply because I dont like him or hold him accountable for the behavioir of his fans while not holding others to the same standard. thats dishonest.
There’s what is legally responsible and then there is what’s right and wrong, a moral responsibility to a platform of people that hinge on every word you say. In Alex Jones’s case i’m not calling for him to be put in jail for inciting people legally. I am saying that what he did to those parents should be criminal and at the very least I understand social media not wanting to facilitate that .
-------------------- R.I.P Zombi3, Blue Helix Modest Mouse Zappa Slothie That Kid With The face ShLong Le Canard split_by_nine & Big Worm Forever Etched in the sands of time in the shroomery and ever so beloved and deeply missed by many
|
BANANA.MAN
Turd Ferguson

Registered: 01/11/15
Posts: 7,474
Loc: Ontario Canada
Last seen: 6 hours, 25 minutes
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Seriously_trippin]
#26839201 - 07/22/20 08:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
"In Alex Jones’s case i’m not calling for him to be put in jail for inciting people legally. I am saying that what he did to those parents should be criminal"
you contradicted yourself
"I understand social media not wanting to facilitate that ."
As do I and I'm ok with social media banning him. are you even reading the posts you are responding to?
"There’s what is legally responsible and then there is what’s right and wrong"
I agree. but definitions matter. someone claimed Alex Jones incited harrassment. whether or not you are talking about legal proceedings, he objectively did not incite anything according to the definition of incitement and thats all I was objecting to.
You were trying to say he is responsible for his fans bur Bernie isnt. I hold everyone to the same standard. If one's language truly meet the definition of incitement then they are guilty of incitement. if not they are not.
Edited by BANANA.MAN (07/22/20 08:19 PM)
|
Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,957
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Seriously_trippin] 1
#26839208 - 07/22/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I'm pro-censorship.
Social media platforms must take measures to protect the people against organized campaigns of fake news, of extremist propaganda and against the echo chamber effect such as the Incels experience.
There is a cyber war going on where populations of nations are deliberately exposed to detrimental points of view, in order to manipulate and disrupt these nations.
I'm also pro censoring what sorts of cookies sites may install on your machine. Its going too far.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
|
Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Asante] 1
#26839369 - 07/22/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
That same censorship is going to come back to bite you in the ass sooner or later..
--------------------
Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
|
Texas Honey Badger
No fucks given



Registered: 07/12/18
Posts: 58,657
Loc: Spicemaster Texas
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Amanita86]
#26839377 - 07/22/20 09:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah but Asante is talking about fake news we see every day
--------------------
Some call me Paw 🐾
|
Nonagon Infinity
Mycologist



Registered: 06/02/20
Posts: 756
Loc: Polygondwanaland
Last seen: 3 years, 10 days
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Asante]
#26839384 - 07/22/20 09:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asante said: I'm also pro censoring what sorts of cookies sites may install on your machine. Its going too far.
I am a huge advocate for privacy, and I agree that so many web services are simply going too far. I just wish Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and the like would have a more ethical business model, as I think the problem stems directly from the way they make money. Right now, users and customers of these services are not the same people. The customers are advertisers and anyone else who has enough money to buy the data that these companies collect from their users. Facebook, for example, isn't a product: it's a web service. The product is your personal information that you willingly forfeit as a user of the service.
I know it's extreme, but I honestly wish you had to pay a subscription to be a Facebook, Twitter, or YouTube user (or, maybe a freemium model, where you only get access to all the site features with a subscription). In that case, these companies would be dependent only on the satisfaction of their users for their income, which would actually be easier for them if you think about it. Right now, they have to satisfy both their users and the advertisers that buy data from them. It would be better for the users as well, since they wouldn't be sacrificing their own private data. The hard part would be selling such software to people, since everyone is already so used to getting web services for free. I know, I know... I can dream about it... It'll probably never happen. These companies will probably rely on selling personal data until the bitter end because it's working out really well for them so far.
Still, I think it's possible that we could live in a world where social networking companies make money from subscriptions. Match is a great example of a service like that where people like it. Match is generally regarded as one of the best online dating services out there, and it operates on a freemium subscription model. Users have to pay to use the service, so the users are the customers. Match doesn't have to rely on selling personal information to advertisers to make money (they probably still do, idk, but the point is that they don't have to).
I promise this is all relevant, and I'm going to bring it back to the original topic brought up in the OP now: Let's suppose that Twitter was a freemium subscription model business. Let's suppose that we lived in a world where you could set up an account, follow other users, and "like" tweets for free, but if you wanted to start making posts of your own, you needed to pay $20 per month. What would Twitter do in the case of QAnon in that case? Let's say there were thousands of QAnon people who were paying the monthly subscription under the pretense that they could spew all of their garbage publicly on Twitter. They would probably be more hesitant to ban these users in that case, since banning all of them would mean a serious cut to their profits.
It's interesting to think about how a change in the way they do business would change how they handle these censorship issues.
-------------------- Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door
|
Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Texas Honey Badger]
#26839482 - 07/22/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Spicemaster said: Yeah but Asante is talking about fake news we see every day
Fake news needs to be reeled in. I wouldn’t call a requirement to stick to actual facts censorship though. Censorship to me is something different than what would be cutting out fake news. I guess we’ll have to get pretty sharp with definitions and such.
--------------------
Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
|
ichugwindex
Dex



Registered: 06/04/16
Posts: 4,613
Loc: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last seen: 11 months, 19 days
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
#26839523 - 07/22/20 11:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Even if its hate speech against everything I love I think people have the right to say it. It's up to the viewer/listener to decide if the things are true.
Or are we gonna be a nanny state where you need parents permission to buy a butter knife?
-------------------- Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.
Edited by ichugwindex (07/22/20 11:13 PM)
|
Srirachi
Mold Hand



Registered: 10/18/05
Posts: 11,411
Loc: Fare Thee Well.
|
Re: Will you speak out against censorship even if you fucking hate what they're censoring? [Re: Asante]
#26839562 - 07/22/20 11:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asante said: I'm pro-censorship.
Social media platforms must take measures to protect the people against organized campaigns of fake news, of extremist propaganda and against the echo chamber effect such as the Incels experience.
There is a cyber war going on where populations of nations are deliberately exposed to detrimental points of view, in order to manipulate and disrupt these nations.
I'm also pro censoring what sorts of cookies sites may install on your machine. Its going too far.
So, would you also support censorship of the violent entertainment like music and videogames that are pervasive in our culture today? Russia hardly has the stranglehold on the American mind that Hollywood does.
Who gets to decide what's fake? When news casters speculate about the President's intentions with no proof, would you also censor that speech?
|
|