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Blue Helix
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Panaeolus Grow Log Report 7
#26836048 - 07/21/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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First I want to thank jcm4620 for his kind donation of this excellent culture of Panaeolus cyanescens (pan cyan) or Panaeolus cambodginiensis (pan combo). We are not absolutely sure which yet but I have started an on-going investigation we started Alan Rockafeller concerning this matter. From here out I'll say "pan cambos" since they look more like them and their potency is about what I'd expect from them. Whatever the species, it is a very strong growing strain that is easier to grow than pan cyans I think but harder than cubensis still.
This grow is actually a mix of a culture of his and a multispore inoculation from one of his excellent prints. Agar was used to make sure it was clean but I did not experience significant contamination in jcm4620's print. Still, unless you are getting a print from a vendor, you must use agar at first rather than introduce spores direct to LC as you would with a vendor print. The trays were originally split up half each (one isolated culture and one multi-spore culture), but after awhile it became obvious that neither the culture nor the multispore was a clear winner. The culture did seem to go a tiny bit faster, but in the end, they yielded about the same.
I have posted many grow logs on Shroomery over the years, so why yet another log? Two reasons: (a) people tend to like new logs even while the old ones were just fine for some reason (I guess it just confirms the techniques outlined work); and (b) this strain is the highest-producing one I have encountered in my life for any type of mushroom. So let's get started!
I am not going to cover how I make liquid cultures (LCs) or substrate bags. If you are still messing around with agar plates and sectoring and all that nonsense, I hope you will consider moving to LCs. I did almost 20 years ago and never looked back, and I'm still waiting for someone to prove to me some clone (which is agar's supposed claim to fame), produces better than a multispore (no one has taken me up on that challenge either. Instead they just keep sending me pretty pictures of symmetric agar projections or canopy flushes almost anyone can grow for some odd reason). And I hope people will refer to my previous grow logs concerning this very powerful way of growing tons of mushrooms that does not require a flow hood or SAB or any of that. I will just rehash the formula I use for the substrate in the bags, although this has been widely posted on before:
Quote:
- Manure 44 oz
- WBS 10 oz
- Water 100 oz
- Vermiculte 1.5 liter
measured moisture 65% +/- 0/.5% Prep: I spread into two large spawn bags and cook for 4 to 5 hours Produces: ~10.1 pounds total
The grow starts with the LC inoculation of the bag. Here we see the bags on day 6 after inoculation and, as you can see, they are very nearly completely colonized already:

On day 7 after inoculation, I opened the bags and laid the trays (in retrospect this was a bit too early I think). Below are the trays laid as well as showing the saran wrap I applied (with toothpick holes)
 
Any time after laying the trays but before applying the casing I call reconsolidation time. If it's done--and with some species/strains of pan cyans, it is not necessary--typically reconsolidation lasts between 2 to 5 days. During this time, trays are covered and should be kept around fruiting temperatures (RH really doesn't matter much since the trays are covered). I let these trays consolidate for 48 hours (although I now think it should have been longer, but more on that later). Below were what the trays looked like afterreconsolidation and after casing them on the day reconsolidation finished:
 
From this point forward, all references to "days" are after the casing of the tray. This convention is simply because the casing is so critical. Here we see day 1:

Below is day 3. Notice how we are starting to see a significant overlay of the casing. This is bad, but it does not always mean a horrible run. If it gets too much, it can destroy yields since pins do not like to form on the overlay. The overlay can be lessened and sometimes prevented by mixing the bags around 50% (I didn't do this but wish I had), making sure to not open the bags the day after they are done (let them keep going for a few days after they are done), and using longer reconsolidation times (I used 2 days but think 5 or 6 would have probably been a bit better):

On day 4 the overlay was so horrible that jcm4620 suggested I might remove it. That sounding pretty extreme to me, but given how overlay can ruin a pin set, I went ahead and did it. Below is the collection of overlay mycelium that was removed with tweezers:

On day 5, I started to see pins (mostly between the overlay but some poking through it). Below is a picture of that day:
 
Day 7 the pins started to develop into fruiting bodies:
 
Day 8:
  
Day 9 post-casing was the first harvest of about 5 of the 8 trays. Fruit observations are as follows:- Fruits were very stalky with meaty caps and fairly thick yellow stems while remaining in good proportion. This robust appearance strongly suggested cambos to me as it did to Alan.
- There were no aborts; that is, every single pin that started finished a fruiting body.
- Fruits were very tightly packed, particularly the smaller second flush ones
- The second flush yield was nearly half as much as the first which is better than usual
- The mycelium really compressed the blocks. There was significant contraction of the substrate.
- Even with the overlay playing a role in probably reducing the first flush yield a little, the yield was the highest I have ever recorded from ANY species mushroom.
Here are the day 9 (first flush start of harvest) pictures:
  
By day 12 the first flush wrapped up, and in many trays the second flush was well underway and partially picked. On this day I applied about a cup of water per tray using a large 140ml syringe to keep the soil between the pins wet as it had dried somewhat to encourage maximal growth. By day 13 the remaining trays of the second flush were near completion:

By day 14 the entire second flush was done except for the bottom right tray in the picture:

On day 15 I picked the last laggard tray. I stopped all trays on the second flush because of green mold on a couple of trays. I figure if it is on one, it's coming for them all. The green mold was probably due to the extra water I applied to the casing after the first flush, but it really doesn't mean I "failed". It just means it is time to pull the trays out because once it forms, the trays are toast. Looking back on the second flush density and the super high water content of these, I think the water was necessary. The fruits were packed together much tighter in the second flush versus the first, and they were so numerous that they were stunted even with the extra water. It just seemed like no amount of water was enough for these, but the extra water did help out.
Biological efficiency (BE): So the from the bag inoculation to finishing the second flush was about 3 weeks or shorter than the length of time it often takes for cubes to form the first flush. This grow has been amazing in general, but one thing stood out far above the others, BE, and that's where these really got interesting. First, let's just talk dry weight. Now keep in mind that I hard dry meaning it's a two-stage process: the first is force airflow through the pile in an open room until they feel cracker dry. The second stage is a closed space with a very low humidity environment maintained by DampRid desiccant also using a forced airflow through the pile for at least a day. So when I say "cracker dry" I mean as dry as they can be without using a vacuum chamber, not just normal "cracker dry":
First flush: 199g dried Second flush: 94g dried Total: 293g dried
I measured the wet-to-dry weight ratio with these. They contain far more water than either cubes or pan cyans. Water-to-dry ratio is not 1:10 like cubes but around 1:18 (about 94.5% water). For this reason, I will not be using the actual fresh weight here for biological efficiency. Doing so is meaningless because a given wet weight of these will give you only a little over half the dry weight compared to cubensis. Instead, I'll pretend they are only 90% (rather than 94.5%) water so we get a number that makes sense compared to cubensis rather than an inflated, meaningless one. Let's compute the cubensis-equivalent wet weight then (I always do this because different mushrooms have different amounts of water):
Cubensis-equivalent Wet of both flushes: 293g * 10 = 2930g
And the dry weight of the substrate: Manure + WBS + Vermiculite: 44oz + 10oz + 6.6oz = 60.6oz * 28.3g/oz = ~1717g
Now the best pan cyan grows I've done got around 70% BE off FOUR flushes, but what did these do, with overlay no less, in only two flushes? Let's compute the BE :
BE = wet weight fresh (using cubensis equivalent) / dry weight substrate * 100 = 2930/1717 * 100 = ~171% BE
This BE and overall dry yield are astonishing, and I've never seen anything like it in my life. They out produced even cubensis! That's why I wanted to post this grow log. The BE is off the charts!
Potency: So, I tried 0.8g of the floured first flush which is my usual test dose for pan cyans (happens to be about what you can fit in an 000-sized capsule too). They were in line with cambos. That means about 2X the potency of cubensis (or half the potency of pan cyans). Now these were grown on a traditional manure-based substrate, but unlike pan cyans, jcm4620 has pointed out these can grow very well on a grain-based substrate (I am trying that too). The growth medium of any mushroom can make a potency difference, so they might be stronger if grown on a grain-heavy mix (but with a lower BE according to jcm4620's grows). If I find that a grain-heavy substrate produces more potent specimens, I'll update this grow log to reflect that as well as the associated BE. Regardless of what substrate they are grown on, if you want to know the real potency of your grow you need to try them using a well-known test dose (none of this eyeballing stuff) of fully floured (or homogenized at least) material. Just going by what the last grow was like is really kind of sketchy unless you are using a known culture because genetics plays some role here too.
Closing remarks: Well at 171% BE with 2X the potency of cubensis there isn't much to not like here. Sorry but I don't do these "trip quality" things because except for potency, all magic mushroom trips are mostly the same to me, but it does help if you don't have to gag down a fist full of them or take 4 to 6 000-sized capsules as you do with dried cubes (of course you can make tea but even the tea tastes bad if you have to use a lot of dried material). I'd suggest if you are shooting for mostly potency as measured by strength per gram and don't care so much about BE, you grow Pan Cyans which are about twice as potent. Still, considering how super easy these are to grow and how much they produce, who cares about the potency? Just take more because you're going to grow more than you could ever use!
Edited by Blue Helix (07/21/20 04:37 PM)
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26836098 - 07/21/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Those are awesome. You got some monster caps.
The pic in my signature is from these prints too. They came in super thick clusters for me also. These are the only pans I’ve eaten so far but I thought they were 3-4x cubes so if cyans are twice these I can’t wait.
Idk how much difference sub makes but mine was wbs spawned to steer manure compost and verm.
Is there a reason you don’t use a dehydrator? I also had about 95% water in mine.
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LAGM2020     
Edited by A.k.a (07/21/20 02:21 PM)
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Gan
Wielder of Narya



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26836141 - 07/21/20 01:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Fuckin hell man. Beautiful trays
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Zifozonke
Stranger


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26836146 - 07/21/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Guess Blues back in town!! Awesome grow
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Camera93
We got dicks like Jesus



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Zifozonke]
#26836150 - 07/21/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine. Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival Close your eyes, and do the best that you can
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26836254 - 07/21/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Those are awesome.
The pic in my signature is from these prints too. They came in super thick clusters for me also. These are the only pans I’ve eaten so far but I thought they were 3-4x cubes so if cyans are twice these I can’t wait.
Idk how much difference sub makes but mine was wbs spawned to steer manure compost and verm.
Is there a reason you don’t use a dehydrator?
I do use a dehydrator. I just don't use HEAT and the crappy tiny dehydators they sell. There is no need to use heat, and these hauls are in the pounds of mushrooms, not little piles. The first flush filled 3 gallons of space for example and weighed 7.8 POUNDS.
I used heat-based dehydrators for years, but they are just for tiny grows. Today, I use a forced flow of air through the pile. That that's the key too - forced air through the pile. The pile dehydrates far faster with a powerful fan blowing through it than with a relatively wimpy off-the-shelf heat-based dehydrator. To me those are more like toys.
The first stage is a 5-gallon bucket that has the bottom replaced with a screen. They are loaded in there and air is blown through the pile from the bottom. This stage lasts 12 to 24 hours. When they are pretty dry, you should re-break-up the pile to make sure it's not closed off to the air flow. Here is what it looks like:

Once that is done, most of the drying is done. They are about as dry as most people get them at that point, and I probably could stop there. But I really prefer mine a lot drier than what most people do, so I have a second stage. The second stage is a much smaller container that has forced airflow via a PC fan. The container is loaded into a Brute trashcan. The air through the pile blows onto DampRid, and a trash bag keeps air from entering so I can drive down the RH. This stage lasts 12 hours:

A lot of people have told me stuff like this: I tried DampRid but it didn't work at all! And then I ask them, "So, how did you use it?". The typical response is something like, "Well, I just put the mushrooms on a screen in a closed container with the desiccant next to it." If that is what you are doing, DampRid won't do jack shit. You need to (a) first dry them with a fan forcing air through the pile and then, once they are "cracker dry" load them up into a closed container with DampRid and again force air through the pile. Just putting mushroom in a container with DampRid might work if you are pulling a few hundred pan cyan caps or something tiny like that, but this was thousands of caps, not hundreds, and weighed several POUNDS. If you want to dry big harvests, you have to either (a) use heat with forced air or (b) use a desiccant with forced air. I prefer a desiccant rather than using my oven with the door cracked open is all.
By the way, the first thought I had about the potency being 2X was simply that they weren't dry since jcm4620 had such a different opinion (although I still don't know what his standardized test dosage is). Of course, they were totally dry. I put them back into the dehydrator overnight and they didn't lose a gram of water.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/21/20 03:01 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26836306 - 07/21/20 03:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Those are awesome. You got some monster caps.
The pic in my signature is from these prints too. They came in super thick clusters for me also. These are the only pans I’ve eaten so far but I thought they were 3-4x cubes so if cyans are twice these I can’t wait.
Idk how much difference sub makes but mine was wbs spawned to steer manure compost and verm.
Is there a reason you don’t use a dehydrator? I also had about 95% water in mine.
A couple of other things about the potency. First, this is close to the receipe that jcm4620 uses (I had to back calculate it since he uses volumetric measurements to mix it up):
Quote:
Grain-based Substrate Scaled to 10lbs (grain-to-manure wet volume ratio 1:2)- Manure 34 oz
- WBS 25 oz
- Vermiculite 1.5 L
- Water ~100 oz
~10.1 pounds total
The only difference is that he replaces 60% of the manure with chopped straw (on a per-volume basis). Also his grain is actually spawn, not just in a bag like that. As you can see, that mix contains 2.5X the grain that mine does. That's probably going to increase the potency. How much is an open question I'm trying to figure out, but I've been having some bad luck with mold issues using such a grain-rich substrate with an LC. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I have a few ideas. When you deal with grain-rich substrates, you have to be very careful injecting the LC because all it takes are two mold spores and it'll go south. I probably need to do the injections way more carefully and might need to reduce the LC I use to something like 60ml rather than 140ml simply because when I inject that much, I think I accidentally get air from the room in. Another way to solve it might be to inject in a SAB or make spawn like he does. I'll figure it out.
On the downside to the grain-based substrate, though, is that it produces less yield (about a third less) and the specimens grow more slowly. This also suggests they might be stronger since in my experience lower yields that grow more slowly do tend to be more potent specimens.
If it's 4X cubensis, though, seems to me to be unlikely. I'm not sure how he does the testing, but I'm pretty careful about how I do it. I'd have to try his specimens to really know for sure. Or maybe I can grow them myself using his substrate once I get the LC kinks worked out for the heavy grain load.
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mushboy
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26836308 - 07/21/20 03:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Is there a reason why you dont use a dehydrator thru the whole drying? Why the multi stage process?
Sorta explained but I still dont get it
Edited by mushboy (07/21/20 03:20 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26836310 - 07/21/20 03:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Man, great write up, BH. I know we talked about this a bunch, but there were a lot of details I missed until I read this.
I'm starting 2 bags tonight and I will definitely break them up half way though.
But I wanted to clarify something. Once the bag has fully colonized, you let it consolidate for an additional 2 days?
Oh, and with this method of drying do they still shrink up horribly lol?
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 2
#26836323 - 07/21/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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first off i just wanna take a second to say thank you to blue helix for taking the time and putting in all the effort that he did throughout this entire process. we were in constant contact through the entire grow. it was a great experience that i had basicly growing side by side with him and getting to compare and share our methods,ideas,pictures,data and overall thought process that we had from the start of my culture slant to his LC and my print to his agar and then another LC all the way through to this grow log/report. this really was a great learning experience for me and i learned a lot about cultivating the panaeolus species. hell i mean it was blue,asura and jakes write ups and information that got me interested in pans to begin with. so having the chance to do this with him was just absolutely awsum and im that much more exited and inspired to keep on going and hopefully getting to do this again with another culture. so with all of that said. blue i thank u👍😃😃
now im not gnna get into my grow too much just cuz for one this isnt my grow log. and 2 i pretty much have already done that since i have grown this actual culture several times. mostly all of that information has been logged in my journal already which can be found by clicking the link in my signature. i will however most likely update it a lil with the information from the grow that i did/am still doing side by side blues. i just thought maybe id share a few pictures from the grow in here also and even tho a lot of you have seen my pics already id just like to document that they were a part of this interactive grow i guess you could call it.
but before i do that the only thing that i want to touch on was the issue of potency. now as its noted above we are not 100% certain on the ID of these. they may be cyans but the signs also can point to cambos as i have fruits that look exactly like both everytime i grow them and honestly they are basicly identical and can only seenthe difference on a macroscopic level or so ive read. jake also has already done the pcr on them and is just waiting for alan to give him the results. but that said i have grown absolutely known cyans and absolutely known cambos and even bisporus and to be totally 100% honest i could not tell the difference between any of them. be it from these jams or any of the other grows i just simply can not tell them apart. to me they are all 3 potent as shit. but i know different circumstances and even the ppl taking them can cuse a different experience of potency so wel just leave that up for you all to decide. so i guess you will just have to grow these yourself to find out.
but thats an easy thing to do right now since as it just so happens i am doing a double prin giveaway. i printed 120 fruits all together from one of my first flush trays. so 100 prints will be givin away but in sets of 2. so that means i am giving out 50 foils that have 2 different fruits printed on them. now i have already posted about the giveaway in the pan thread and now in here. and il also atate here im not posting it in the marketplace where really it should go. but am doing it here and there cuz i want the ppl who actually want to grow them to be the ones who get them and not just someone who only wants a free print.
to get a print i ask that you pm me with a subject of "jam print" and leave a name and address either in the pm or thru privnote. please do not ask for prints on this thread as with the pan thread i dont want to flood it with print request so i ask if there is any questions regarding prints they be directed to my write up in my journal. all you have to do to get there is click the link in my signature. oh and U.S. only please cuz it just seems everytime i send international they get taken in customs and never arrive at the destination.
well now for the porn😃😃😃
please note that the last few pics are from a previous grow but i just included them as a good example to show how consistantly good they are for me🤩🤩
so again blue thank you for doing this and iinviting me to be a part of this entire process its been a wonderful experience in so many ways. and also thanks to the entire community here especially asura and jake and all my other fellow pan heads. you all are great and and give me motivation to do my best i deeply thank you all😃😃
sincerely JCM🤘
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26836400 - 07/21/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I never thought about spawn ratio affecting potency I just figured it would produce more overall but that could be a part of it.
I think there’s definitely something with individual brain chemistry and pans too. I know a guy who won’t take more than 2g of cubes but can take a gram of these jams and says they don’t affect him that much.
Anyway these jams and the grows in here are bad ass. I’m kinda surprised how similar the ms and the clone were.
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LAGM2020     
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26836412 - 07/21/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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oh heres some shitty 2nd flush pics😂😂😂😂😂 on the one tray the casing was completely destroyed cuz they came in so thick i had to patch the hell out of it and its funny how u can tell cuz they didnt grow there lol. now my 3rd flush will grow better there than where they are at now. but the one tray is just starting to pin again
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: mushboy] 1
#26836425 - 07/21/20 03:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: Is there a reason why you dont use a dehydrator thru the whole drying? Why the multi stage process?
Sorta explained but I still dont get it
A "dehydrator" is a device that dehydrates something, and what I show in the all pictures do that. I don't use the minature toy ones you buy at Walmart or whatever because I had a pile of musrhooms two feet high and weighing 8 pounds. Try to picture that for a minute: 2 feet high and 8 pounds. You aren't going to dry that in a cute little dehydrator you buy online. The first dehydrator gets most of the water out (as much as most people bother getting out). The second dehydrator with the Damprid gets them super dry. I create a flour, so they need to be DRIER than a cracker, not just "cracker dry". For most people, the cute little dehydrators you can buy for way too much money are fine. Mine cost me half that and dry about 10X what they do.
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mushboy
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26836434 - 07/21/20 03:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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We use children's toys got it.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26836439 - 07/21/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: I never thought about spawn ratio affecting potency I just figured it would produce more overall but that could be a part of it.
I think there’s definitely something with individual brain chemistry and pans too. I know a guy who won’t take more than 2g of cubes but can take a gram of these jams and says they don’t affect him that much.
Anyway these jams and the grows in here are bad ass. I’m kinda surprised how similar the ms and the clone were.
More spawn does not produce more mushrooms with a dung-loving mushroom; it produces considerably less. These mushrooms evolved as secondary decomposers, not primary decomposers. If you want to maximize yield, you should use LESS spawn not more, and my grow demonstrates that well. If you are shooting for potency rather then yield, you probably should use more spawn because grains have more tryptophan in them, the precursor to psilocybin.
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skullhuman
the skullman cometh



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26836483 - 07/21/20 04:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Gorgeous Panaeolus grow
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 2
#26836495 - 07/21/20 04:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: first off i just wanna take a second to say thank you to blue helix for taking the time and putting in all the effort that he did throughout this entire process. we were in constant contact through the entire grow. it was a great experience that i had basicly growing side by side with him and getting to compare and share our methods,ideas,pictures,data and overall thought process that we had from the start of my culture slant to his LC and my print to his agar and then another LC all the way through to this grow log/report. this really was a great learning experience for me and i learned a lot about cultivating the panaeolus species. hell i mean it was blue,asura and jakes write ups and information that got me interested in pans to begin with. so having the chance to do this with him was just absolutely awsum and im that much more exited and inspired to keep on going and hopefully getting to do this again with another culture. so with all of that said. blue i thank u👍😃😃
now im not gnna get into my grow too much just cuz for one this isnt my grow log. and 2 i pretty much have already done that since i have grown this actual culture several times. mostly all of that information has been logged in my journal already which can be found by clicking the link in my signature. i will however most likely update it a lil with the information from the grow that i did/am still doing side by side blues. i just thought maybe id share a few pictures from the grow in here also and even tho a lot of you have seen my pics already id just like to document that they were a part of this interactive grow i guess you could call it.
but before i do that the only thing that i want to touch on was the issue of potency. now as its noted above we are not 100% certain on the ID of these. they may be cyans but the signs also can point to cambos as i have fruits that look exactly like both everytime i grow them and honestly they are basicly identical and can only seenthe difference on a macroscopic level or so ive read. jake also has already done the pcr on them and is just waiting for alan to give him the results. but that said i have grown absolutely known cyans and absolutely known cambos and even bisporus and to be totally 100% honest i could not tell the difference between any of them. be it from these jams or any of the other grows i just simply can not tell them apart. to me they are all 3 potent as shit. but i know different circumstances and even the ppl taking them can cuse a different experience of potency so wel just leave that up for you all to decide. so i guess you will just have to grow these yourself to find out.
but thats an easy thing to do right now since as it just so happens i am doing a double prin giveaway. i printed 120 fruits all together from one of my first flush trays. so 100 prints will be givin away but in sets of 2. so that means i am giving out 50 foils that have 2 different fruits printed on them. now i have already posted about the giveaway in the pan thread and now in here. and il also atate here im not posting it in the marketplace where really it should go. but am doing it here and there cuz i want the ppl who actually want to grow them to be the ones who get them and not just someone who only wants a free print.
to get a print i ask that you pm me with a subject of "jam print" and leave a name and address either in the pm or thru privnote. please do not ask for prints on this thread as with the pan thread i dont want to flood it with print request so i ask if there is any questions regarding prints they be directed to my write up in my journal. all you have to do to get there is click the link in my signature. oh and U.S. only please cuz it just seems everytime i send international they get taken in customs and never arrive at the destination.
so again blue thank you for doing this and iinviting me to be a part of this entire process its been a wonderful experience in so many ways. and also thanks to the entire community here especially asura and jake and all my other fellow pan heads. you all are great and and give me motivation to do my best i deeply thank you all😃😃
sincerely JCM🤘
jcm4620 this was the most exciting and fun grow I've done in many years. The last real grow I'd done was in 2018 in contact with Asura with my attempt to conquer overlay, but this grow was way more exciting to me. What's amazing about these to me is the simple easy of growth and the ungodly YIELD. When you contacted me and told me you weren't having any trouble with 100% BE, I thought you must have been mistaken. These tiny mushrooms, no matter if they are pan cyan or pan cambos, just don't produce that kind of yield I thought. Wow, was I ever wrong. These did deliver! Remember that 171% BE was assuming that the fruits were 90% water not the true 94.5% water they are. So if you do the REAL BE given their real wet weight you get 307% BE! I'll give anyone out there that can prove to me a grow over 300% BE a $100 right now. Don't worry, though; I'm not going to be parting with $100 anytime soon on that bet because THEY DO NOT EXIST! This isn't just a high-yield mushroom, this is the KING OF YIELDS mushroom! Nothing I know compares!
I suggest anyone even mildly interested give these a whirl. They really are something. There were just so many mushrooms that I started to wonder if I was dreaming or something! It was crazy! It's the kind of thing people who grow these mushrooms dream about I guess!
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura] 1
#26836507 - 07/21/20 04:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Man, great write up, BH. I know we talked about this a bunch, but there were a lot of details I missed until I read this.
I'm starting 2 bags tonight and I will definitely break them up half way though.
But I wanted to clarify something. Once the bag has fully colonized, you let it consolidate for an additional 2 days?
Oh, and with this method of drying do they still shrink up horribly lol?
I did NOT break my bags up, but as you saw, I suffered some major overlay issues. The suggestion to try to break them up is from jcm4620. I don't usually do it nor do I usually recommend it, but it might be worth a try because jcm4620 does it and did not have overlay at all.
The extra days of consolidation I also did not do. Again, this is a suggestion to help stop overlay. It might work or not...
I know the grow looks amazing, but had I not removed the initial overlay, this grow would have been toast. The overlay would have been an inch high I'm sure if I didn't. I'm just making suggestions to try to avoid the overlay I had with them.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: mushboy]
#26836524 - 07/21/20 04:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushboy said: We use children's toys got it.

No they are big boy toys (which isn't a bad thing), but they weren't designed to handle a pile of mushrooms two feet high. That's all.
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mushboy
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26836531 - 07/21/20 04:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sure they are. I'll try to find a pic.
Just take a cardboard box and make a 'housing' that sits ontop of the trayless dehydrator.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26836547 - 07/21/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Oh, and with this method of drying do they still shrink up horribly lol?
Well they are nearly 95% water so no matter how you dry them, they'll shrink up horribly. That's the nature of them. From the first flush alone, I went from 3 gallons of mushrooms to less than a half gallon of dried ones. Because of the unusually high water content, they shrivel to what seems like almost nothing, but because of the freakishly high yield, you still end up with a lot of material there.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26837492 - 07/22/20 03:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Beautiful work guys!!
Nice write up
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o] 2
#26837568 - 07/22/20 05:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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just a few close up shots from some of the 2nd flush😀
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Puduwoke
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26838669 - 07/22/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Awesome grow Helix. Sounds like you guys had a great time.
Thanks for all you guys efforts and sharing it with the community!
Are you saying that these specific Pans cyan or cambo is special with its BE or are you saying that all Pan cambo have this crazy high BE.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Puduwoke] 1
#26838727 - 07/22/20 04:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Puduwoke said: Awesome grow Helix. Sounds like you guys had a great time.
Thanks for all you guys efforts and sharing it with the community!
Are you saying that these specific Pans cyan or cambo is special with its BE or are you saying that all Pan cambo have this crazy high BE.
I've only grown pan cambos one time before back in 08, and while they did grow crazy easily--like between cubes and pan cyans--I didn't do BE computations then. I had actually thrown out the trays after the second flush and they pinned and fruited insanely in the trash bag even:
 
They just wouldn't stop growing! You had to practically destroy them to get them to stop! Now I say I didn't measure a BE, but I mean look at them:
   
My bet is that the BE was super high then too, but because of the obvious low potency issue that is an objective fact, I didn't grow them again. By the way, anyone who wants to confirm this, just grow them. Take 0.5g and tell me that the trip is strong (because 2 to 3g of cubensis like what a pan cyan 0.5g would be equivalent IS strong whereas 1g of cubensis is not strong). They were fun to grow, though, but potent compared to true pan cyans they were not. They are a nice stepping stone for growers to grow before going to full pan cyans, which don't put up with the abuse of cambos and also grow a little slower.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/22/20 04:29 PM)
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26838738 - 07/22/20 04:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: just a few close up shots from some of the 2nd flush😀

Looking good, jcm4620. Now show us the third and fourth too, okay?! LOL These mushrooms have one goal in life - to grow like they are on steroids!
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Puduwoke
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26838779 - 07/22/20 04:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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So sorry if I'm slow Helix. But I really want to be sure about this. Your are saying all cambos grow easier than cyan? find it interesting, do not remember reading anyone else saying this. But I might just not be paying attention enough  Would you mind sharing a few more differences that you noticed between them? I understand if you answered this to many time before. I just find it so fascinating! Love pans
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Puduwoke]
#26838802 - 07/22/20 04:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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not sure if il have time for a 4th but one tray is pinnin now on its 3rd and the other is about 2 or 3!days from harvesting its 2nd i most def could get 4 but ive got some peace river clones on grain kicking ass already that im on a mission to start fruiting out. i have a fuckload of transfers to fruit so i prolly wont waste time on a 4th if i can put these in there by then. but wel see what happens 😀😀
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26838809 - 07/22/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Did you do anything special with that vase??
I’m surprised they got enough air in there. I hope i get huge bell caps one of these days.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Puduwoke]
#26838821 - 07/22/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Puduwoke said: So sorry if I'm slow Helix. But I really want to be sure about this. Your are saying all cambos grow easier than cyan? find it interesting, do not remember reading anyone else saying this. But I might just not be paying attention enough  Would you mind sharing a few more differences that you noticed between them? I understand if you answered this to many time before. I just find it so fascinating! Love pans 
Yes, I am saying they are easier to grow. The main reasons are that they grow at least 15% faster and are not as picky about pinning profusely, especially in the flushes past the first. The mycelium is also far more tenacious and thicker thus the substrate is less prone to contamination. You can easily mix up the substrate bags of pan cambos without any ill effect, but sometimes pan cyans just stall out if you do that. Pan cyans just don't hold onto the substrate anywhere nearly as tightly as cambos do, and they would never overlay to the extent I saw these do. They couldn't because the mycelium is too weak.
I wouldn't put much stock in what other people say when if comes to potency. No one says cambos are weaker than pan cyans, but I trust my own mind more than other's reports of potency. Plus, I know how people "test" strength: they take a gram and then say "Gee these are way stronger than cubes! But just maybe I should take a little bit more". Then they take another half gram, and are like "WOW! These are SO POTENT!" apparently not realizing they just took what would be a pan cyan cubensis equivalent of 6 to 7.5g! I see that stuff all the time. When I say they are 2X as potent I mean if you take 1.5g of cambos you are going to experience a 3g or maybe 3.5g dose of cubensis, and I think that's a pretty strong dose. But if you take 1.5g of pan cyans, you are probably going to land in a mental ward unless you are a crazy hard head.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26838833 - 07/22/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Did you do anything special with that vase??
I’m surprised they got enough air in there. I hope i get huge bell caps one of these days.
Cambos are bullet proof. They hardly need fresh air it seems. Grow them in a trash bag, a vase, an aquarium, probably anything!
  
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26838867 - 07/22/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thank you for the knowledge and inspiration.
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jcm4620
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🤩🤩🤩🤩<----------crazy hard head here lol
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26838906 - 07/22/20 05:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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i like that vase pic tho it just looks awsum
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26838908 - 07/22/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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ive got a crystal head vodka skull bottle i have an idea for a novelty pan grow to give it an afro of mushrooms but i gtta get a cpl diamond bits to take it to work and throw it in a cnc and do some cutting on it. but it will be awsum i promise
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Blue Helix
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Pan cambo LC spinning:

Is it COVID? Could be! 
Seriously, the most wicked LC I ever saw was from cambos!
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26838995 - 07/22/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It’s weird how a lot of pan lcs grow those ocean mine looking blobs.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26839058 - 07/22/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: It’s weird how a lot of pan lcs grow those ocean mine looking blobs.
Mine are usually not that crazy. The LC for this grow did have small rough pieces but they were not as big or spiky as in the animation. When the blobs get that spiky and big, you know the mycelium is very vigorous - even more than usual. I think rhizomorphic growth as expressed in a continuously-stirred LC.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/22/20 07:15 PM)
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26839272 - 07/22/20 08:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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First off, beautiful grow log and photos. I am trying to get into panaleous and will be pulling from this write up quite a bit I'm sure, along with Azura's and jcm's. So thank you for putting the time and effort that you did into it.
I have a question regarding the BE. Did you weigh the overlay you removed? Would that have affected it or was the casing not factored in? I'm really new to this hobby so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks!
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26839602 - 07/23/20 12:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Myc_Hunt said: First off, beautiful grow log and photos. I am trying to get into panaleous and will be pulling from this write up quite a bit I'm sure, along with Azura's and jcm's. So thank you for putting the time and effort that you did into it.
I have a question regarding the BE. Did you weigh the overlay you removed? Would that have affected it or was the casing not factored in? I'm really new to this hobby so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can. Thanks!
Overlay is simply mycelium. It is not the fruiting body, but BE is the fresh weight of the musrhooms harvested divided by the dry weight of the substrate times 100. As I mentioned these had a tremendous amount of water (94.5%), and if I measured that REAL wet weight, I'd have had a BE of around 307%. But if we are drying them and trying to compare them to cubensis, we really should assume the same dry weight to wet weight ratio of cubensis, the standard mushroom grown. And if I do that the BE is 171% since cubensis only contains 90% water (rather than 94.5%). Normally, though, BE is the real fresh weight, not using some wet-to-dry weight ratio that is equivalent to some other mushroom.
I know all of this might seem a bit confusing, but it's only confusing because there is no standard definition for what we REALLY want which is dry weight of the mushrooms divided by the dry weight of the substrate. That would be much more applicable for magic mushrooms since the water doesn't do much for us (after all who cares how much water they contain if the dry stuff makes you trip?). But since there isn't something like that and I didn't want to make it up (that might confuse people even more), I just used a cubensis standard for wet-to-dry weight ratio.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26839834 - 07/23/20 06:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Alright, awesome. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know if the overlay was denser and utilized more of the subtrate or not.
Either way, still a great log and I can't wait to get into some panaleous
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E] 1
#26841176 - 07/23/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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jcm4620 had asked me about how much LC I use to inoculate the bags and the size of the needle. I actually use a weird big ass stainless steel needle that is 12 gauge and 3" long. I inject 140ml using a huge syringe. But I'm almost sure you don't have to go so large like that. It's like asking how much mycelium do you need to inoculate an agar plate? The right answer is that it really doesn't much matter. You can use a speck you cannot even see OR you can use a square inch from another plate. Either way, it'll work. LCs inoculations are the same. LCs usually can be sucked up pretty well in any needle 16 gauge or larger (most spore syringe vendors use 16-gauge needles). If you get much smaller than that, you might have some clogging issues depending on the species of the LC. And they don't need to be more than an inch long really (you could get away with probably a half inch if you had to even) because you can mix the bag up after the injection.
Each time I post one of these grow logs, I am hopeful people might look at the yield and will try out LCs. In my opinion, the LC technique direct to the bulk substrate works better and is easier than spawning for small-to-medium grows (say under 50-pound harvests). If you are going really big, then LC-direct-to-bulk has the disadvantage that the substrate must be sterilized rather than just pasteurized. Sterilization is too energy intensive to compare favorably to spawning a pasteurized substrate when you are talking huge farms, so it would put professional grow operations of stuff like portabellas at a disadvantage. Spawning also allows spawn-generation operations to be outsourced to a third party, which is a big bonus for small farms. Companies like Amycel (http://www.amycel.com/) specialize in spawn generation so that endpoint farmers don't need to have huge walk-in pressure cookers and deal with sterile techniques. They just pasteurize some compost, let it cool, spread and mix in the spawn at a certain ratio, let it colonize, and then case and fruit (avoiding all sterile technique stuff).
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 2
#26843658 - 07/24/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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well think its time to pull this tray. its the 3rd flush and they are gettin pretty damn small. but all and all its been a good grow and i cant complain😃 thanks again blue it was a real blast man and i cant wait to see the grain grow of these. then hopefully we can do some more shit together in the future cuz it really was fun👍👍
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26843912 - 07/25/20 02:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: well think its time to pull this tray. its the 3rd flush and they are gettin pretty damn small. but all and all its been a good grow and i cant complain😃 thanks again blue it was a real blast man and i cant wait to see the grain grow of these. then hopefully we can do some more shit together in the future cuz it really was fun👍👍
Yeah, once fruits start to get small like that, you've exhausted the substrate. Three flushes is a fine number, though, especially with how heavily these flush. I have duplicated your substrate (the grain-based one you use) and it's working fine using the normal LC-to-spawn-bag technique (i.e. without using spawn). The bags are 4 days old but rapidly finishing now. I'm super curious how yields compare between my normal manure-heavy substrate and your grain-heavy one. My hunch is that the grain-heavy substrate will have less yield, but maybe the fruits will be more potent. I'll post here when I find out!
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844075 - 07/25/20 06:32 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I wouldn’t have expected there to be a difference between lc or grain spawn grows, do you think it apples to cubes as well or is it related to pans liking manure? I would’ve thought a sub would run the same once it was colonized.
Mushrooms are super weird.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26844216 - 07/25/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: I wouldn’t have expected there to be a difference between lc or grain spawn grows, do you think it apples to cubes as well or is it related to pans liking manure? I would’ve thought a sub would run the same once it was colonized.
Mushrooms are super weird.
I don't expect a difference between LC or grain spawn runs either, but that's not what I'm talking about. We are talking about two different substrates here, though. The two recipes involved are grain-heavy and manure-heavy (although strictly speaking both of these are grain-heavy compared to anything that would be used in the real world where such mushroom growing does not feature super spawning and spawn rates are almost always less than 2% wet weight. Almost everyone on Shroomery is using incredibly high amounts of grain in their grows compared to real mushroom farms which could never afford such a luxury). jcm4620 and I already observed major difference in mycelium development characteristics between these two substrates:
Quote:
Grain-heavy Substrate (grain-to-manure wet volume ratio 1:2)- Manure 34 oz
- WBS 25 oz
- Vermiculite 1.5 L
- Water ~100 oz
~10 pounds total
Quote:
Manure-heavy Substrate (grain-to-manure wet volume ratio 1:6.5)Manure 44 oz WBS 10 oz Vermiculite 1.5 L Water ~100 oz ~10 pounds total
Edited by Blue Helix (07/25/20 08:59 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26844247 - 07/25/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: I wouldn’t have expected there to be a difference between lc or grain spawn grows, do you think it apples to cubes as well or is it related to pans liking manure? I would’ve thought a sub would run the same once it was colonized.
Mushrooms are super weird.
I've grown cubes on almost straight grain and straight manure. I did not observe a great difference in potency to my recollection, but then again, I probably wasn't paying that much attention to it. I didn't pay as much attention to yields either a long time ago when I was growing cubes, but if I were to make a bet, I'd say straight grain runs or runs with very, very heavy grain contents will yield less unless there is quite a bit of vermiculite in there. A lot of people don't realize it, but grains, while more nutritious, contain far less water than manure does. Manure is usually mixed to around 65% water (ideally) for mushroom growing even while it can hold even more than that. Grains can only contain about 50% water (they just won't hold beyond that). So if you don't do something to change the low water content of grain (like adding a lot of vermiculite), you'll stunt yields considerably because the mycelium just won't be able to extract the water as easily. Maybe a heavier casing might help with that, though; I don't know. I really don't get why people use so much grain. Grain beyond what farms use makes sense, but I'm seeing recipes floating around with so much grain in them that they probably are stunting growth, especially in the later flushes.
By best cubensis grows used a substrate a lot like the manure-heavy one listed in my previous post:
   
Edited by Blue Helix (07/25/20 09:20 AM)
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844260 - 07/25/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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my substrate recipe for the last 2 grows of those has been by volume. each tray contains
2qts rye berries as spawn 4qts chopped wheat straw and shredded horse manure. 60%straw 40% horse manure. very thin casing of 50/50peat and med grade verm. ph balanced with calcium carbonate to 7.5
so my spawn to sub ratio is 1.2
however i have a grow in the works where i will be going back to a 1.4 ratio of the same substrate mix. im just cutting tbe amount of grain in half is all. just wnna see if i can have the same or better results on a lower amount of grain. but i will also be adding a small amount if promycel gold to the mix.
after seeing so many others using way less grain than i am i wanna go back to the 1.4 ratio i started off at and see if i can get the results im after. i upped my grain when i wasnt getting the desired results but now that i have learned a lot over these last 3 or 4 grows im thinking i just wasnt getting the results i wanted due to being new to the species and not in tune to what to look for and knowing what they like and dont like. so now after knowing more about them i wanna give it another go with the 1.4 ratio and see what happens😃
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26844281 - 07/25/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: my substrate recipe for the last 2 grows of those has been by volume. each tray contains
2qts rye berries as spawn 4qts chopped wheat straw and shredded horse manure. 60%straw 40% horse manure. very thin casing of 50/50peat and med grade verm. ph balanced with calcium carbonate to 7.5
so my spawn to sub ratio is 1.2
however i have a grow in the works where i will be going back to a 1.4 ratio of the same substrate mix. im just cutting tbe amount of grain in half is all. just wnna see if i can have the same or better results on a lower amount of grain. but i will also be adding a small amount if promycel gold to the mix.
after seeing so many others using way less grain than i am i wanna go back to the 1.4 ratio i started off at and see if i can get the results im after. i upped my grain when i wasnt getting the desired results but now that i have learned a lot over these last 3 or 4 grows im thinking i just wasnt getting the results i wanted due to being new to the species and not in tune to what to look for and knowing what they like and dont like. so now after knowing more about them i wanna give it another go with the 1.4 ratio and see what happens😃
Just to be clear about jcm4620's recipe: since he's had such luck with it and so I could try it too, I spent a lot of effort back converting his volume ratio recipe to dry weight ratio, so I could try it too (the only difference is that I did not introduce the straw since that is next to impossible to convert to a dry ratio without knowing a whole bunch of stuff about his straw). His former wet volume ratio is 1:2. I'm calling that the grain-heavy substrate above. My current wet volume ratio in the manure-heavy mix is 1:6.5. So his new wet volume ratio of 1:4 is somewhere between those two.
The reason I prefer dry weight ratios in my recipes rather than wet volume ratios is really for two reasons. One, dry weight doesn't change between two growers. I will never get a batch of manure where 1 ounce doesn't weigh 1 ounce (it's a redundant statement); that is, consistency is intrinsic to the measurement itself (that is not true about volumes at all since the density of your straw or manure might be different than my straw or manure). The second reason is that I spent ZERO time washing and making grain for my substrate. Sure I tried it and it made no difference. I weight it and throw it in the mix dry. All the grain cooks in the substrate bags in the pressure cooker along with all the other ingredients. That's just because I'm lazy and do not believe there is an advantage to prepping hydrated grain before mixing it in. I think the people who claim all that extra work matters are mistaken (at least when it comes to final substrates; it might matter for spawn though). If it's true that it matters when making a final substrate--and again I'm not talking spawn here because I don't use spawn--I need proof because I've tried it both ways, and it made no difference.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/25/20 09:45 AM)
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Luv_The_Cyans
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844331 - 07/25/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Nice grow Helix! That BE is insane Will try your recipe when I can get a clean LC going.
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fightingcherries



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844395 - 07/25/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have some pan cyan, I grew dried and ready to go. That last line you said just made me rethink how much I was going to take! Have you tried Azurescens? How do they compare to cyans?
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Blue Helix
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Quote:
fightingcherries said: I have some pan cyan, I grew dried and ready to go. That last line you said just made me rethink how much I was going to take! Have you tried Azurescens? How do they compare to cyans?
I've never had the pleasure of trying Azurescens, but if you look at the measured potency range, their top end suggests they really are stronger than all of these, 2X as potent or more than pan cyans. Azurescens are a wood-loving and cold-weather species, though. Under very specific conditions they can grow in big groups, but it's not the usual case in nature. I've not read of a successful indoor cultivation of them, but I'm sure someone's done it. It certainly wouldn't be easy, though, and it'd take a lot longer to fruit
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844690 - 07/25/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Here's a standard potency measurements. Sorry that this was formatted with a fix-width font so kind of looks like shit here and this doesn't talk about the considerable ranges involved which can vary 2 or 3X within a species depending stuff like what they're grown on. Notice that this chart does put cyans even 2X as potent as cubensis. I don't know about that... but it's interesting:
SPECIES % PSILOCYBIN % PSILOCIN % BAEOCYSTIN REFERENCE P. azurenscens 1.78 .38 .35 Stamets and Gartz 1995 P. bohemica 1.34 .11 .02 Gartz and Muller 1989; Gartz (1994) P. semilanceata .98 .02 .36 Gartz 1994 P. baeocystis .85 .59 .10 Repke et al. 1977; Beug and Bigwood 1982(b) P. cyanescens .85 .36 .03 Stijve and Kuyper 1985; Repke et al. 1977 P. tampanensis .68 .32 n/a Gartz 1994 P. cubensis .63 .60 .025 Gartz 1994; Stijve and de Meijer 1993 P. weilii .61 .27 .05 P. hoogshagenii .60 .10 n/a Heim and Hofmann 1958 P. stuntzii .36 .12 .02 Beug and Bigwood 1982(b); Repke et al. 1977 P. cyanofibrillosa .21 .04 n/a Stamets et al. 1980 P. liniformans .16 n/d .005 Stijve and Kuyper
I sure wish some lab would do a set of tests for all of these using the same equipment in the same lab. This chart is some hodgepodge of efforts, and is probably hardly work reading.
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844730 - 07/25/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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This paper by Stijve is buried on the site and is pretty interesting.
https://www.shroomery.org/8697/Stijve-T-1992-Psilocin-psilocybin-serotonin-and-urea-in-Panaeolus-cyanescens-from-various-origin
Psilocin content seems to vary widely. In this report, the samples from Australia were lowest, but I have another report (that I can't seem to find right now) that shows it highest. Nice tidbits of info in this paper like the fact that actives seem to be equally distributed across the entire fruiting body.
And who knew that cyans contained pee?
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26845213 - 07/25/20 09:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said:
And who knew that cyans contained pee?
I didnt know you guys like watersports
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26845408 - 07/26/20 01:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: This paper by Stijve is buried on the site and is pretty interesting.
https://www.shroomery.org/8697/Stijve-T-1992-Psilocin-psilocybin-serotonin-and-urea-in-Panaeolus-cyanescens-from-various-origin
Psilocin content seems to vary widely. In this report, the samples from Australia were lowest, but I have another report (that I can't seem to find right now) that shows it highest. Nice tidbits of info in this paper like the fact that actives seem to be equally distributed across the entire fruiting body.
And who knew that cyans contained pee?
Any mushroom that grows on manure (aged or not) is bound to contain at least traces of urea. It's the same with cubensis grown on manure. I think if that's a problem for you, you better stick with grains and vermiculite. LOL I personally don't see the big deal, though. After all I contain pee--always have--and I'm doing just fine!
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26845473 - 07/26/20 03:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Premarin, a hormone replacement therapy used in menopausal women is derived from horse pee. The trade name is an anagram (i think that's the word) of Pregnant Mare Urine.
So I guess it's not that weird
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26849946 - 07/28/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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As I wait for my Pan Jam print from jcm from the series you profile here, I'm really just posting because I want to get in on this thread to monitor it's discussions.
BH, a fantastic log-- I told jcm I'm planning on initiating my grow this autumn after a move when I can dedicate some space to Pans and their environmental needs.
I know you said you didn't want to go into your LC methods here too much, but I'm in the midst of a history search of your posts to see how you roll that, because I love the idea of contained nock-ups and spawn-stage elimination. Always seemed like an un-needed doubling of the time required to get jiggy.

-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26849983 - 07/28/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ive only got 5 of the prints left to be claimed once i get pms with address for those i will post about getting them all out to everyone whos in 👍👍😃
again anyone interested pm me subject "jam print" and leave an address in there or thru privnote. all questions regarding prints should be done thru pm or in my write up linked in my signature below as i dont want to clutter this with print request😃
they will be going out all at once👍
also my total dry weight off the 2 trays was 163.grms not bad but not as good as my previous but thats my own fault cuz i had to go outta town and i had a cpl minor issues but i still cant complain. we both had a good grow and i cant wait to see the higher grain content grow to follow👍👍 thnx again blue😃
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Mycostotle
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26850236 - 07/28/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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What did you use as casing?
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Mycostotle]
#26851142 - 07/29/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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50/50 peat and med grade verm ph balanced to 7.5 with calcium carbonate👍
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Mycostotle
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26852910 - 07/30/20 02:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: 50/50 peat and med grade verm ph balanced to 7.5 with calcium carbonate👍
Was it pasteurized?
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Mycostotle]
#26852933 - 07/30/20 03:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya always
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26852983 - 07/30/20 05:30 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: Also my total dry weight off the 2 trays was 163.grms
Ah, so 163 profound experiences, lol
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: Wall.E]
#26852990 - 07/30/20 05:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya i suppose that could be 😃 lol but its more like 71.5 really good times for me cuz i prefer 2.0 dry 😃😃👍
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620]
#26853023 - 07/30/20 06:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've only ever fucked with cubes. So I'm excited to get into pans. Hoping for a better experience
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: Wall.E] 1
#26853086 - 07/30/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Jcm what do your pans usually dry to?
The Jams were 95% water but the wild coast was closer to 90%. Pleasantly surprised with 50% more weight than I expected.
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Edited by A.k.a (07/30/20 07:24 AM)
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: A.k.a]
#26853102 - 07/30/20 07:49 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya mine usually are in about the 93-95% range
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26854310 - 07/30/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: As I wait for my Pan Jam print from jcm from the series you profile here, I'm really just posting because I want to get in on this thread to monitor it's discussions.
BH, a fantastic log-- I told jcm I'm planning on initiating my grow this autumn after a move when I can dedicate some space to Pans and their environmental needs.
I know you said you didn't want to go into your LC methods here too much, but I'm in the midst of a history search of your posts to see how you roll that, because I love the idea of contained nock-ups and spawn-stage elimination. Always seemed like an un-needed doubling of the time required to get jiggy.


Yes, it's unneeded. Look, I got about 320% real biological efficiency using it. I haven't seen anyone else even close to that growing these, so I know the methods work. I know the substrate works. That's without debate.
LC can be used to inoculate spawn or a substrate. If it's used in a substrate, you have to include a little grain. That is, it's terrible at inoculating pure straw, manure, or sawdust. You have to include some grain or flour in there or else it'll die off. If you do a search on this site or Mycotopia, you'll find other grow logs I did for it, including much more detailed insturctions on how to do it. If you have specific questions, I'll answer them here, but the general process is simply making a liquid culture with the super cheap lids I posted about here. That itself must be inoculated with either a CLEAN vendor-grade print or using agar on a hobbyist-grade print. Hobbyist prints sometimes work too, but I would trust them. So that's the BAD news - you have to use agar one time. But as soon as you have a LC, you never have to touch the stuff again (or spawn for that matter). The mycelium can be stored in full 4% sugar solution for about a year. If you replace 95% or so of that sugar solution with water (thus making a very weak LC), you can store it for 10 years. You never will have to return to annoying agar work again, and until this grow I hadn't touched the stuff in 15 years probably. I was a little rusty even.
The LC is injected into a tape-reinforced spawn bag with the final substrate in it. You quickly cover the hole with hot glue. The bag will colonize and then you can fruit it out normally. That's about it in a nutshell. It's not a "new" technique by any means. Paul Stamets talked about liquid cultures very positively since probably the 70s. And on YouTube there are probably 25 videos or more about them.
But the old school spawn techniques--as required in profession farming--are still more commonly used simply because there is more written about them - not because they are better for small grows where you harvest say less than 50 pounds fresh.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26854313 - 07/30/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Jcm what do your pans usually dry to?
The Jams were 95% water but the wild coast was closer to 90%. Pleasantly surprised with 50% more weight than I expected.
No, pan cyans are NOT 95% water; they are 90% water just like cubes are. Cambos are around 94.5% water. That high water is the most direct way I know to tell the difference too. If you got something that high in water, you are definitely not growing pan cyans; they are probably camobs if you know it or not (in fact these cambos had a higher water content than any other mushroom I've grown). There isn't some strain difference that wide among pans cyans; water content is a species property, not strain within a species. Just to repeat myself: this grow was for CAMBOS, not pan cyans. That is obvious for a whole lot of reasons if you think about it, including the substantially lower potency of them, something you cannot tell without a controlled dose experiment.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/30/20 08:08 PM)
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: Blue Helix]
#26854322 - 07/30/20 08:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cool I was shocked how much weight those jams lost when I dried them, same ones from jcm.
Sounds like they’re definitely cambo then, hopefully well get that confirmation soon.
So wild coast is a cyan right? Which you usually find to be more potent than cambo? I’m stoked to try these things.
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LAGM2020     
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26854784 - 07/31/20 01:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: Cool I was shocked how much weight those jams lost when I dried them, same ones from jcm.
Sounds like they’re definitely cambo then, hopefully well get that confirmation soon.
So wild coast is a cyan right? Which you usually find to be more potent than cambo? I’m stoked to try these things.
I believe wild coast is a true pan cyan. If you want to know for sure, weigh them before and after drying. If the ratio is around 1 to 10 you know for sure they are not cambos (although it could be panaeolus tropicalis but you'll need a microscope with a micrometer or PCR test to know that). If the ratio is closer to 1 in 18, you got cambos because nothing else I know is that watery (this means the same weight dried of cambos yields roughly half the dry material as pan cyans).
I did not find the jcm4620 specimens as strong as pan cyan, but it's been a long time since I took any mushrooms. I need to do a new sample of pan cyans, and the next ones will be the red down under (which I'm told is actually tropicalis although I found it wicked strong, especially fresh in 2008 when I discovered the strain). I'm also doing a tiny grain-heavy grow of jcm4620's cambos to see if that increases potency.
Usually I don't like grain-heavy substrates because they just don't yield very well and sometimes even stunt growth (especially for pan cyans, which don't like tons of grain). A good example of that was a very comparable grow of jcm4620s where I used my usual manure-light-grain substrate and jcm4620 used his usual grain-heavy mix. My biological efficiency was 320%, the highest of any mushroom I've grown (but keep in mind they also contain a lot more water). Jcm4620's growing the exact same culture was around 160%, roughly half mine (although that is still unbelievably good). I think the difference is because cambos are so watery that they really benefit from the more manure and vermiculite (in my mix), which both hold a lot more water than grain or straw (in jcm4620's mix). But even if it yields half on a grain-heavy mix but is twice as potent on grain it'll be a worthwhile option, and I'll report back on that later in this thread what I find out either way.
Here are those RDU. Aren't they beautiful! I just loved them, and 10g fresh knocked me out almost and I went crazy. They were very strong fresh. I should have taken half that.
    
Edited by Blue Helix (07/31/20 02:00 AM)
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: Blue Helix]
#26854843 - 07/31/20 03:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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my pan jams from asura were very wet. 131g wet dried to like 8.2g. I was so bummed haha... so you think those were cambos bh?
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: c10h12n2o] 1
#26854909 - 07/31/20 05:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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no ive grown those to c10 and they were 100% cyans👍👍👍
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26854919 - 07/31/20 06:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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c10 these are asuras jams and i have these too but these are not my grows these are asuras grows im just using them to show they are 100% a cyan and u can tell just by lookin at these unlike with my culture from another source they look like both cyan and cambo at times. but asuras are 100% cyans and im sure if u grew from his print they looked more like these than mine and blues
Edited by jcm4620 (07/31/20 06:08 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26855022 - 07/31/20 08:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c10h12n2o said: my pan jams from asura were very wet. 131g wet dried to like 8.2g. I was so bummed haha... so you think those were cambos bh?
There are ways to grow mushrooms that cause them to be excessively wet. Almost any mushroom can become water-logged, even cubes. Weird practices where the casing is super wet or they are misted during growing can cause that. I sort of don't include that in my assessments of mushrooms. I know that's a big fat fad right now to make casings overly wet (these fads come and go just like overly-complex substrates come and go; I learned to ignore them). If you do that or grow at 100% RH, all bets are off. Just grow them normally the way they've been grown for a 100 years and measure their wet-to-dry ratio (cut back the moisture a little as they mature like you should be doing).
In my case, a heavy flush usually dries out he casing pretty well. If you are seeing it still real wet after a heavy flush, that's not a good sign. And if you see that, I don't think you can make a great statement about the real water to dry ratio.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26855032 - 07/31/20 08:10 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c10h12n2o said: my pan jams from asura were very wet. 131g wet dried to like 8.2g. I was so bummed haha... so you think those were cambos bh?
Do you happen to have a picture of them? I can check for deformity like overly stringy or wet looking.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620]
#26855036 - 07/31/20 08:12 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: c10 these are asuras jams and i have these too but these are not my grows these are asuras grows im just using them to show they are 100% a cyan and u can tell just by lookin at these unlike with my culture from another source they look like both cyan and cambo at times. but asuras are 100% cyans and im sure if u grew from his print they looked more like these than mine and blues

Those are much bigger and bell shaped caps, that’s the cyan look right? The jams I got from you that are in my signature had much flatter frisbee kinda shaped caps. I figured it was a pheno thing but the smaller flatter caps are a cambo trait?
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620]
#26855046 - 07/31/20 08:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: c10 these are asuras jams and i have these too but these are not my grows these are asuras grows im just using them to show they are 100% a cyan and u can tell just by lookin at these unlike with my culture from another source they look like both cyan and cambo at times. but asuras are 100% cyans and im sure if u grew from his print they looked more like these than mine and blues

These definitely do not look like the cambos I've grown. They have the shape and proportions of a normal pan cyan. They look like they would yield about 70% as a pan cyan does. I'd be surprised if they had 94% water. Interesting.
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: Blue Helix]
#26855072 - 07/31/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya like i said u can look at those and know 100% for sure they r a cyan. unlike mine where i have times i see both. it will b nice when the final verdict comes in for sure but im also leaning more twd mine being cambo
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26855163 - 07/31/20 09:32 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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also just an update for yall. all the giveaway prints from this grow are now spoken for and everything will be put together this weekend and they will all be mailed out monday morning on my way to work.😃 so be sure to post pics of them growing in the official pan thread and also in my write up thread linked in my signature. thanks again to B.H and everyone else.
happy growing JCM🍄🍄🍄🍄
Edited by jcm4620 (07/31/20 09:34 AM)
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Camera93
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620]
#26855167 - 07/31/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: also just an update for yall. all the giveaway prints from this grow are now spoken for and everything will be put together this weekend and they will all be mailed out monday morning on my way to work.😃 so be sure to post pics of them growing in the official pan thread and also in my write up thread linked in my signature. thanks again to B.H and everyone else.
happy growing JCM🍄🍄🍄🍄

good lookin out for everyone man
-------------------- All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I’m fine. Whatever you decide won’t really impact our survival Close your eyes, and do the best that you can
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26855275 - 07/31/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26855637 - 07/31/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sure, here are some pics from various stages. First real pan grow, i have a long way to go. Been getting extremely unlucky on my cultures
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o] 2
#26855875 - 07/31/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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c10, that looks great for a first grow to me. I've had some bad luck this year as well. I am thinking I should just stick to winter growing ...which seems counter-intuitive for a tropical species.
As for my jams...they are definitely cyans and came from mary's last grow.
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura] 1
#26855921 - 07/31/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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c10 those look great man im glad to see ur gttn the hang of them and the fc seems to be workin out for ya👍 once you get yourself some killer ass genetics its panopy city🤩🤩 then slant them bitches and grow a canopy of pans whenever u want. it looks like u have the exact trays i use also👍👍i love them things. i use to use those black ones but switched to the heavy duty white ones cuz i can re use them and they wash out easier but they are the same size. are u also using the dome that comes with them for your tray colonization/recovery?? thats what i do cuz its nice to be able to see in it. i secure the domes on with binder clips like so.
but they look great c10 i only gtta ask 1 question why aint those beauties posted in my fc write up and also in the pan thread? they look fantastic man post dem bitches🤘 great job man👍
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26856055 - 07/31/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah thats what i do too, really handy
Thanks for all yalls help 
I think those were in both of those threads, those were from my first harvest, those tiny ass pan bisp pics i sent you are from the more recent ones
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 2
#26856541 - 08/01/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: c10 those look great man im glad to see ur gttn the hang of them and the fc seems to be workin out for ya👍 once you get yourself some killer ass genetics its panopy city🤩🤩 then slant them bitches and grow a canopy of pans whenever u want. it looks like u have the exact trays i use also👍👍i love them things. i use to use those black ones but switched to the heavy duty white ones cuz i can re use them and they wash out easier but they are the same size. are u also using the dome that comes with them for your tray colonization/recovery?? thats what i do cuz its nice to be able to see in it. i secure the domes on with binder clips like so.
but they look great c10 i only gtta ask 1 question why aint those beauties posted in my fc write up and also in the pan thread? they look fantastic man post dem bitches🤘 great job man👍
They really are great genetics. I finally understand why, jcm4620, you had the same flush density (or even more I think) but half the yield. It's a matter of the fact I had twice the surface area because manure is half the density of the grain-based substrate. To compensate for more dense substrates with more nutrients you are supposed to use a shallower tray like they talk about in the growing guides.
I'm using 1" depth substrate given it's grain-based sub this time. Even that might be too much to achieve a a yield comparable to the manure-based sub. I recall never going over an inch with grain like that, and you must always consider density when computing the substrate depth. For example, heavy straw substrates might need to be 3" deep for pan cyans. Like I said, manure is about 2X to 2.5X more voluminous, so you get about twice the depth for the same surface area. At 1" I'm getting about 75% of the surface area of my usual 2" manure-based substrate. I think with the shallow substrate I should be able to get close to the manure-based yield,though, simply because the nutrients are 2X as dense so a 2" bed is a waste. I'll report back soon the result.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/01/20 10:45 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 3
#26859478 - 08/02/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I want to thank Alan Rockafeller for his excellent microscopy work and teaching me while doing it. I'm thinking of getting a new scope, and he showed me a lot about what I'd need to really key in what species some of these little mushrooms we are all calling pan cyans (often incorrectly) are. The spores for this species were sold at Jamacian Panaeolus cyanescens (pan cyan). Using the scope this was plainly wrong (no doubt about that being wrong too). Although we ran out of time for the final analysis, Alan narrowed these mushrooms down to almost certainly panaeolus cambodginiensis (cambos). That was easy for me to believe because of how they grew (insane yields, high water content, slightly less potent than pan cyans, etc.)
Although spore size was only one step in the identification process, the spores sizes alone discounted the possibility of pan cyans. Below are two slides showing spores, maybe basidia (not clear here) The basidia of these were mostly 4-spored structures with a couple 2-spored ones. The spores develop on these and are ejected off them. Basidia were the hardest thing for my untrained eye to identify, and to see all four arms you really need to work the fine focus adjust. You also can easily see cystidia (sac-like things) in the picture on the right. I don't know what cystidia do but they really help identification since the key references stuff like wall thickness and even the color of them.
So below are two slides that Alan used software to analyze.- Size range : (11.1) 11.2 - 13.3 (14) × (8) 8.8 - 10.5 (11.1) µm
- Variance: Q = (1.1) 1.2 - 1.4 (1.5)
- Number of spores analyzed: N = 30
- Mean size: Me = 12.4 × 9.7 µm
- Mean aspect ratio: Qe = 1.3

Edited by Blue Helix (08/02/20 07:13 PM)
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26859526 - 08/02/20 06:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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thats awsum man its so nice to finally know😃 thank you guys👍👍 we def gtta give jake a thanks also since hes the one that first brought this issue to light quite a while back. he and alan even did the pcr on them but they have not all been sent in yet but we can pretty much bet the bank on it now thank u blue.alan and jake for taking your time and putting in the effort to ensure correct identification. you guys are all awsum🤘🤘 i also would like to start getting into this side of the hobby as well as it seems very interesting i may get a scope myself here in the near future
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26859573 - 08/02/20 07:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah thanks guys yall rock
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Puduwoke
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26864658 - 08/05/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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from Sweden aswell! Amazing what so many people on here do for each other, others and the community. So proud to be able to be apart of this and the pan-movment!
I'm sure BH would be thrilled to have this engagement back in the day about pans.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Puduwoke] 2
#26864866 - 08/05/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Puduwoke said:
from Sweden aswell! Amazing what so many people on here do for each other, others and the community. So proud to be able to be apart of this and the pan-movment!
I'm sure BH would be thrilled to have this engagement back in the day about pans.
Yes, things sure have changed, Puduwoke! It's a refreshing change too. I think the cat is out of the bag: pan cyans and related smaller mushrooms aren't too hard to grow and yield far beyond what cubes can not just in terms of magic but even in terms of raw yield now with cambos! If you look at my cubensis-equivalent BE on pans (assuming the fruits are a full 10% solid like cubes are), I computed 171%! Bear in mind that is a substantially higher yield of a mushroom that is a MINIMUM of 2X as potent as cubensis on a per-gram basis! And some, like jcm4620, argue they are every bit as potent and pan cyans even, which are about 4X as potent as cubensis! Either way you are getting at least 3X the magic from a species that is very hardy. I'd put these cambos at almost as easy to grow as cubensis even! I haven't added this to this grow low yet, but let me try to illustrate how hardy these cambos are.
So I decided to grow using jcm4620's grain-rich substrate formula. He makes his fruit-out substrate that way by adding an incredibly high amount of rye spawn, making his grows basically mostly on grain, not manure. He uses (per volume) 1 part spawn to 2 parts manure/straw whereas my normal formula is a 1:6.5 ratio (per volume or 1:4 per dry weight). His substrate is literally twice as dense and really has less water carrying capacity of the traditional substrate, but even though it might not yield too well, I wanted to see what it can do to increase potency (if anything). Because it is so dense, I laid it at 1" of depth (half my normal depth) to get a decent amount of surface area (and so raise yield).
Anyway, I saw overlay again on day 3 (yesterday) for some weird reason (he never sees overlay but I do). I decided to do a very harsh technique of solving it that I used to do with cubenesis all the time to improve the pin set called "light scratching" where you take a fork and gently break up and disrupt the top layer of the casing, including breaking up any overlay if present. Now with pan cyans, that would kill the mushrooms and ruin the run, but with these cambos they bounced back within 24 hours just like cubensis does!!! And you know what that means - a tray packed with an even pin set is on its way because that is what scratching does (if the mushroom survives it I mean)! So a technique that only cubensis can usually survive that greatly increases yield seems to be working for these little cambos!!! Imagine that! That fact completely changes how I'd recommend growing them now because I've said for years that if you can scratch a run like that and the mushroom survives, you should usually do so. I'll post about this her once the first flush is harvested and my yield proves my point, but I'm excited!
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26864965 - 08/05/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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i personally never bought into the scratch it with a fork stuff tho. but if it works for ya then go for it also cubes dont really overlay tho so if ur scratching them its prolly cuz it became matted but the way you obtain a nice even and dense pinset is to have good surface conditions and good evaporation of the surface and replacing the surface conditions after evaporation. i mean i know we all can agree on this general basic information.
one thing nobody can ever agree on is potency. thats why i dont even really care to argue it with anyone. potency is mostly an opinion based on the experience one has and not by actual measured active compounds. too many different factors come into play with potency such as genetics,substrate grown on,environment grown in and the thing i think makes the biggest difference and that is fruit size. we all know that say 2 dry grams of smaller average sized fruits will be substantially more potent than 2 dry grams from fewer larger fruits. i have grown and dosed on cyans, cambos and bisporus and i could not tell the difference not 1 bit between any of them. so i think if potency is gnna be debated at all it really cant be by anything other than the percentage of active compounds that is known to be produced on average at the species/sub species level. anything other than that is really just a matter of personal opinion and really has no evidence behind it. other than by what the species is known to produce on an average basis there is no way to even measure it.
also just to add what i actually use as a substate i use a 60% chopped wheat straw and 40% shredded horse manure substrate. now i was using a 1.2 grain spawn to sub ratio. each one of my trays holds exactly 6 total qts minus the casing. so every tray contained 2 qts of colonized rye berries. keep in mind the qt jars are not all the way full so its really more like 1 3/4 qts of spawn to 4 full qts of sub. but by the amounts others use that is very high its just under a 1/3 grain. but i have had no issue with this ratio. now the grow i currently have going im actually using a 1.5 ratio and so far i have not noticed 1 bit of difference. the real result tho will be the way the fruiting and the yield goes. but if i can get by with 1/2 the amount of grain il be all over that shit and then il even be exploring that further and seeing just how far down i can go with it. and from what i see others using that is totally do able. but pans can grow just as well with that amount of grain and i know others have used similar ratios and had good results also. but if i can get by with less that will be great. im really exited to try this with the current grow i have going and il be sure to share my reaults in the pan thread and in my journal. but when i started growing pans i was using a 1.4 ratio but upped it when i wasnt getting what i wanted out of it. then wnen i started getting better results i just stuck with that ratio. but honestly im thinking that the 1.4 ratio was just fine from the start and that it was just me not really knowing what to do and look for with them. i was just kinda winging it and going with the flow. but now that i have learned a lot more about the species and know what to look for and what to do in givin situations i think ima be just fine n dandy at the lower ratio😃👍
Edited by jcm4620 (08/05/20 04:32 PM)
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26864982 - 08/05/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey BH, when you scratched did it bruise? It's always been a bad sign for the grow (for me at least) if the overlay starts to bruise. I've tried the scratching method with cyans before and the overlay just always grew back...but only if there was no bruising. When bruising occurred, the grow just sort of stalled out.
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26865034 - 08/05/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Yes, things sure have changed, Puduwoke! It's a refreshing change too. I think the cat is out of the bag: pan cyans and related smaller mushrooms aren't too hard to grow and yield far beyond what cubes can not just in terms of magic but even in terms of raw yield now with cambos! If you look at my cubensis-equivalent BE on pans (assuming the fruits are a full 10% solid like cubes are), I computed 171%! Bear in mind that is a substantially higher yield of a mushroom that is a MINIMUM of 2X as potent as cubensis on a per-gram basis! And some, like jcm4620, argue they are every bit as potent and pan cyans even, which are about 4X as potent as cubensis! Either way you are getting at least 3X the magic from a species that is very hardy. I'd put these cambos at almost as easy to grow as cubensis even!
I remember reading long ago that some of the interviewed shamans in Mexico told American and European scholars back in the 50's or 60's that they considered cubensis to be the very bottom rung of the hierarchy of visionary mushrooms. The Caeru's, Zap's, Semperviva, and Mexicana mushrooms were always rated at the top. One suspects that Pans would have been included firmly high on that list if they had grown in the places these interviewed shamans had practiced.
I tend to agree with jcm that chemically there's very little functionally different between Psilocybes of all types, as it's almost always Psilocybin/Psilocin in the end... so as you said very well-- what cultivators SHOULD be doing is looking for the highest strength per gram possible, because the higher the potency, the less one needs to attain the chosen strength of their experience. Also, with cubes SO much energy is being used to produce the thick mushroom material that makes cubes so strong physically--as in resistant to harsh environmental conditions. That energy does not usually translate into high alk content-- so why pick them when more delicate but high-alk Pans or Mex could give you way more bang with just 1 to 2 grams per session?
Everyone that has stomach issues with shrooms would be better off with these Big Bang Per Gram (BBPG) types because it's the wonky digestion of that insoluable mushroom tissue that produces so much of the gas that makes people feel like shit and can ruin a trip. I've got some Tamp's on grain right now that I would love for you to include in your calculations to see what their BE is because they produce both stones and fruit-- I don't remember seeing anyone do that BE math including both combined to see how that would work out. (I may have just missed it).
Bottom line, I love what you guys are doing with Pans and other non-cubes. I, like almost everyone else in the room most likely, started with cubes-- but aside from a few unusual types I hope to grow (like the PE family for example) I'm going to focus exclusively on non-cube BBPG types for the rest of my growing in the future-- I am taking notes on the discussion and experiments you guys are all using for peak BE-- I will take it from your experience that peak energy per cubic inch isn't some random factor, but something that intelligent cultivators should very fastiduously seek to optimize for both alks/gm and total dried grams for each type they are working with.
I have also some Semperviva on grain that I will be eager to apply these principles to as well-- but there's so much to learn, I'm just enjoying being part of the crowd watching you guys try things out. When we get moved towards the end of the year and I can start my pans, I will pull directly from your excellent discussions and examples.
Again-- thanks to jcm, BH, Jake, and all the other intrepid cultivators that are moving the goalpost higher and away from plan old cubes-- our community is so much better for it!
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
Edited by coAsTal (08/05/20 05:14 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26865041 - 08/05/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: i personally never bought into the scratch it with a fork stuff tho. but if it works for ya then go for it also cubes dont really overlay tho so if ur scratching them its prolly cuz it became matted but the way you obtain a nice even and dense pinset is to have good surface conditions and good evaporation of the surface and replacing the surface conditions after evaporation. i mean i know we all can agree on this general basic information.
one thing nobody can ever agree on is potency. thats why i dont even really care to argue it with anyone. potency is mostly an opinion based on the experience one has and not by actual measured active compounds. too many different factors come into play with potency such as genetics,substrate grown on,environment grown in and the thing i think makes the biggest difference and that is fruit size. we all know that say 2 dry grams of smaller average sized fruits will be substantially more potent than 2 dry grams from fewer larger fruits. i have grown and dosed on cyans, cambos and bisporus and i could not tell the difference not 1 bit between any of them. so i think if potency is gnna be debated at all it really cant be by anything other than the percentage of active compounds that is known to be produced on average at the species/sub species level. anything other than that is really just a matter of personal opinion and really has no evidence behind it. other than by what the species is known to produce on an average basis there is no way to even measure it.
also just to add what i actually use as a substate i use a 60% chopped wheat straw and 40% shredded horse manure substrate. now i was using a 1.2 grain spawn to sub ratio. each one of my trays holds exactly 6 total qts minus the casing. so every tray contained 2 qts of colonized rye berries. keep in mind the qt jars are not all the way full so its really more like 1 3/4 qts of spawn to 4 full qts of sub. but by the amounts others use that is very high its just under a 1/3 grain. but i have had no issue with this ratio. now the grow i currently have going im actually using a 1.5 ratio and so far i have not noticed 1 bit of difference. the real result tho will be the way the fruiting and the yield goes. but if i can get by with 1/2 the amount of grain il be all over that shit and then il even be exploring that further and seeing just how far down i can go with it. and from what i see others using that is totally do able. but pans can grow just as well with that amount of grain and i know others have used similar ratios and had good results also. but if i can get by with less that will be great. im really exited to try this with the current grow i have going and il be sure to share my reaults in the pan thread and in my journal. but when i started growing pans i was using a 1.4 ratio but upped it when i wasnt getting what i wanted out of it. then wnen i started getting better results i just stuck with that ratio. but honestly im thinking that the 1.4 ratio was just fine from the start and that it was just me not really knowing what to do and look for with them. i was just kinda winging it and going with the flow. but now that i have learned a lot more about the species and know what to look for and what to do in givin situations i think ima be just fine n dandy at the lower ratio😃👍
This might surprise you but I actually do not like scratching! I also don't like mixing my bags at 50%. I just get this sick feeling that I'm doing more harm than good, but looking at the results, not my gut, I cannot deny both things work for the greater good usually. Now, I cannot speak for cambos about scratching because this is the first time I've tried this, but I can speak for cubensis: it's true that cubensis doesn't have overlay usually, and when it does (like in my cococoir versus peat experiment) it isn't that important since cubensis can pin without any casing. Here is the summary slide from that old experiment, by the way:

Clearly the coco coir just became an extension to the substrate whereas peat/vermiculite kept functioning as a casing (i.e. a water reservoir). Even though I don't like scratching, though, I still like what I've seen as the result, which was more frequently dense pin sets. It isn't totally necessary by any means, but it can make a big difference. Here is what I mean by "a dense pin set":
 
If you aren't seeing that in your cubensis grow then you should ask what you can do because that is what a proper cubensis tray should look like (and it was lightly scratched too but that's not the whole reason it looks like that or anything even though it proves that scratching doesn't hurt if done right).
How does scratching work? It works by breaking up the mycelium running unevenly through the casing. Small mycelium fragments (from the overlay or not) are spread evenly through the casing and reconnect to the base IF--and this is a big IF--it doesn't kill the mycelium first. When it works, the result is a more even and dense pin set unless you do it too late. If you do it even a couple days too late, you'll destroy the tray, so it's all about timing. It's not a technique for amateurs for sure, though, because it's too timing sensitive, and I often don't do it even for cubes unless the casing is clearly developing unevenly.
As for the manure-based substrate, I like it for the same reason you like to mix in straw. Just like straw, manure has very low density, and it also grabs extra water like a sponge (probably does this better than even straw does). Opening up the substrate like that to water means heavier yields because often what is limited in a substrate isn't nutrition but water and cropping surface area. If you can increase your water and tray surface area, you'll see heavier yields!
In my opinion, growing mushrooms is really all about water management to be honest. That's what a good casing does, but it's also what a good substrate should do. For example, do you know why trays stop producing heavy flushes in the third flush and beyond? It isn't usually about nutrients left; it's usually about the substrate becoming non-receptive to water and too compact even while there is plenty of goodies to eat left. That's where straw and manure make the magic happen too! Both straw and manure reduce the substrate density, increase the water content of the substrate per surface area, and keep the substrate open to water longer. I love them both for that reason.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/05/20 05:22 PM)
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26865085 - 08/05/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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coAsTal said:
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Blue Helix said: Yes, things sure have changed, Puduwoke! It's a refreshing change too. I think the cat is out of the bag: pan cyans and related smaller mushrooms aren't too hard to grow and yield far beyond what cubes can not just in terms of magic but even in terms of raw yield now with cambos! If you look at my cubensis-equivalent BE on pans (assuming the fruits are a full 10% solid like cubes are), I computed 171%! Bear in mind that is a substantially higher yield of a mushroom that is a MINIMUM of 2X as potent as cubensis on a per-gram basis! And some, like jcm4620, argue they are every bit as potent and pan cyans even, which are about 4X as potent as cubensis! Either way you are getting at least 3X the magic from a species that is very hardy. I'd put these cambos at almost as easy to grow as cubensis even!
I remember reading long ago that some of the interviewed shamans in Mexico told American and European scholars back in the 50's or 60's that they considered cubensis to be the very bottom rung of the hierarchy of visionary mushrooms. The Caeru's, Zap's, Semperviva, and Mexicana mushrooms were always rated at the top. One suspects that Pans would have been included firmly high on that list if they had grown in the places these interviewed shamans had practiced.
I tend to agree with jcm that chemically there's very little functionally different between Psilocybes of all types, as it's almost always Psilocybin/Psilocin in the end... so as you said very well-- what cultivators SHOULD be doing is looking for the highest strength per gram possible, because the higher the potency, the less one needs to attain the chosen strength of their experience. Also, with cubes SO much energy is being used to produce the thick mushroom material that makes cubes so strong physically--as in resistant to harsh environmental conditions. That energy does not usually translate into high alk content-- so why pick them when more delicate but high-alk Pans or Mex could give you way more bang with just 1 to 2 grams per session?
Everyone that has stomach issues with shrooms would be better off with these Big Bang Per Gram (BBPG) types because it's the wonky digestion of that insoluable mushroom tissue that produces so much of the gas that makes people feel like shit and can ruin a trip. I've got some Tamp's on grain right now that I would love for you to include in your calculations to see what their BE is because they produce both stones and fruit-- I don't remember seeing anyone do that BE math including both combined to see how that would work out. (I may have just missed it).
Bottom line, I love what you guys are doing with Pans and other non-cubes. I, like almost everyone else in the room most likely, started with cubes-- but aside from a few unusual types I hope to grow (like the PE family for example) I'm going to focus exclusively on non-cube BBPG types for the rest of my growing in the future-- I am taking notes on the discussion and experiments you guys are all using for peak BE-- I will take it from your experience that peak energy per cubic inch isn't some random factor, but something that intelligent cultivators should very fastiduously seek to optimize for both alks/gm and total dried grams for each type they are working with.
I have also some Semperviva on grain that I will be eager to apply these principles too as well-- but there's so much to learn, I'm just enjoying being part of the crowd watching you guys try things out. When we get moved towards the end of the year and I can start my pans, I will pull directly from your excellent discussions and examples.
Again-- thanks to jcm, BH, Jake, and all the other intrepid cultivators that are moving the goalpost higher and away from plan old cubes-- our community is so much better for it!

Ah, you sound like a convert to the little potent ones! Uh, if you'd like I can calculate the true BE as well as cubensis-equivalent BE for you. Just make note of the weight of the dry ingredients in your substrate (or tell me its wet weight and I'll assume it's 65% water like is usually the case). Then when you harvest, take note of the wet weight of your harvest (that'll give me true BE) and the dry weight (from there I can compute the cubensis-equivalent BE so you can compare more easily with cubes).
By the way, what I'm calling "cubensis-equivalent BE" is simply when I assume your fruits are 10% dry matter even if they are actually only 5.5% dry matter like cambos. In this grow, the true BE of cambos is about 320% whereas the cube-equivalent BE was about 170% - both unbelievably high when you consider cubensis doesn't usually produce much over 130% BE even in the most ideal conditions.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26865099 - 08/05/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I will be able to do the math based on the formula you provided -- I wouldn't burden you with doing it for my grow  I was really just wondering if anyone else with your TC experience level had done BE calcs with stone producers in the past, as they make two different types of alk-containing tissue. Once dried, I would like to see how they stack up against the Pans. I will follow up in a couple months when I have some numbers to share. (Sorry to derail this Pan thread a bit!!!)
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26865101 - 08/05/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya thats fucking ungodly high lol
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26865124 - 08/05/20 05:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said:
Everyone that has stomach issues with shrooms would be better off with these Big Bang Per Gram (BBPG) types because it's the wonky digestion of that insoluable mushroom tissue that produces so much of the gas that makes people feel like shit and can ruin a trip.
This is exactly why pans have piqued my interest. I've eaten cubes in varying amounts in every which way one could imagine and at high doses the stomach pain is the center and focal point of the entire trip and it's impossible for me to do any actual healing.
Now, if I could find out any more information about why my body gives out on any dose higher than 4g of cubes, that'd be cool
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26865193 - 08/05/20 05:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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coAsTal said: I will be able to do the math based on the formula you provided -- I wouldn't burden you with doing it for my grow  I was really just wondering if anyone else with your TC experience level had done BE calcs with stone producers in the past, as they make two different types of alk-containing tissue. Once dried, I would like to see how they stack up against the Pans. I will follow up in a couple months when I have some numbers to share. (Sorry to derail this Pan thread a bit!!!)
Yeah, I'm super curious about that too, especially given how easy stones are to produce. You just fill the jars and wait, right? LOL I doesn't get much easier! It's no wonder that in Europe the powers that be kept the stones legal even while the mushrooms become illegal in 2008 through out much of Europe. It was a way of appeasing the unjustified public panic without shutting it all down.
By the way, the reason fresh magic mushrooms become illegal in 2008 in Europe was a wildly sensationalized single disaster that resulted in one fatality while under the influence. Now imagine if we made say alcohol illegal when a similar accident occurred. About 3,500 to 4,000 people each year are KILLED by drunk driving IN THE USA ALONE (that's about one death every three hours 24/7 and 365 days a year) from alcohol-related accidents. Why is that acceptable and yet a single magic-mushroom-related death over a period of many years caused totally new laws to be established in Europe? And magic mushrooms can help people kick alcoholism to boot thus save lives at least according to several of the founders of AA! Even drunk, those laws make zero sense.
It's like the Kratom laws where the FDA is trying to make Kratom illegal because allegedly it results in deaths. There is no solid proof Kratom alone has ever killed a single person, but we all know the reason the powers that be really want it to become scheduled: it eats into big pharma's profits, an organization that wants to make money even if it means keeping the population addicted to opiates as they decry them through one side of their mouth and push their sales through the other. That is hypocrisy at its most grotesques level possible!
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26865203 - 08/05/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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yup yup and if it wasnt for mushrooms id be dead now no doubt about it. 1 single 7 dry grams of ape got me clean in 6 houts from a 20 yr heroin addiction
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26865208 - 08/05/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mushrooms are a gift from God-- alcohol is a stupifying, fermented accident PS-- proud of you jcm-- sincerely!)
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26865212 - 08/05/20 06:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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🤘🤘 now just gtta get all the way off this damn methadone. i havent been totally opiate free since 1995 lol how sad is that
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26865217 - 08/05/20 06:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not sad-- clearly you're living a good functional life-- you're kind, helpful, talented, and respected by many. Strive to improve, sure-- but be proud of your achievements!
I kicked a raging alcohol issue myself many years ago that almost killed me. That you've stayed strong like you have is a monument of success that I understand. Who cares if it's perfect-- it's awesome.
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26865244 - 08/05/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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well thnx and congrats to u as well👍👍 i was at 225mg a day 4 yrs ago now im down to 20mg a day so i figure i got about one more yr goin at this pace but thats fine i only have to go to the clinic 1 day a week and ive been clean from heroin 4yrs and a cpl days now. i havnt shot dope since the day of that trip and i was shooting 3-4 grams of raw a day lol fuvkin 300-400 bucks a day up the ol arm lol i lost everything i had but my house car n job now im tryn to start over where i left off in the late 90s lol but jf not for psilocybin id be dead no doubt about it just cuz it aint even heroin anymore its all synthetic fent from china and that shits so not consistant in purity so i know id be dead
Edited by jcm4620 (08/05/20 06:25 PM)
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26865547 - 08/05/20 09:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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jcm4620 said: well thnx and congrats to u as well👍👍 i was at 225mg a day 4 yrs ago now im down to 20mg a day so i figure i got about one more yr goin at this pace but thats fine i only have to go to the clinic 1 day a week and ive been clean from heroin 4yrs and a cpl days now. i havnt shot dope since the day of that trip and i was shooting 3-4 grams of raw a day lol fuvkin 300-400 bucks a day up the ol arm lol i lost everything i had but my house car n job now im tryn to start over where i left off in the late 90s lol but jf not for psilocybin id be dead no doubt about it just cuz it aint even heroin anymore its all synthetic fent from china and that shits so not consistant in purity so i know id be dead
I think it's great where you are now. Don't get religious on trying to stop every single thing at once. If you take it too fast, you'll just slip up. Even if you never overcome methadone, at least you are living a real life again with it. I'll never be able to not take my blood pressure pills or thyroid pills, but hey, that's fine. And I have a pretty bad Kratom habit too, but I'm not one of these puritans that think living without pills or supplements is some holy state of being. Just living is the important part - with or without medications. Living with a heroin addiction isn't really living. You should be proud you left that behind you because many people who were at it as long as you were never do and end up dead as a result.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26865709 - 08/06/20 12:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh i dont mind the methadone so much as i mind the fuckin 100$ a week it cost to go to the clinic lol. but thats exactly how i look at it to just as a diabetic needs insulin i need methadone. but ive been on it over 4 years now so im totally goon at my own pace and il never go back to dope again fuck that shit man. my mind is in a good place and im happy and i owe all of it to this shit. but whats funny is 4 yrs ago when this happened to me i only even ate the damn things cuz i couldnt find anyone to buy them ao i could get dope $$ but when i ate them i literally saw the way man and it was a fucking slap upside the head and right then n there i wanted to say fuck this shit wtf am i doin im an idiot. i went down to the clinic that very next morning and i was able to actually see the dr cuz someone didnt show up. normally u have to wait a week cuz the dr there only comes in 1 day a week so the fact that i was able to get in and start dosing that day was a total sign to me that it was meant to be. i ate those things and ended up down there and i fucking new for a fact it was psilocybin that got me down there and i new right then and there that there was something to this and i never even said anything but to just a cpl ppl and whats funny was over the last 3 years i really started seeing shit about psychedelics as a therapy treatment for addiction and once i started seein all this shit all over the place is when i new i wasnt the only one this happened to. psilocybin is in no way an anti withdrawl type of deal my got i wouldnt wish withdrawl like that on anyone let alone while tripping your balls off FUCK THAT lol. but its an extremely valuable therapy tool for sure but just like blue mentioned it has no cash value to it since its a natural chemical so to say and big pharma cant put a patent on it and rip ppl off so you wont see it used on the scale that it should/could be used. and that is a loss for a lot of ppl who may never even know about it having the potential to help them
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 2
#26865716 - 08/06/20 01:02 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh and also after that happened to me i became obsessed with mushrooms and was reading and looking at all kinds of shit and i wanted to trip again cuz back i the day before heroin i was a psychedelic nut. but i just didnt wanna buy them i wanted to grow them and learn about them and then this damn hobby became my addiction lol. now the psilocybin is just a secondary effect from the hobby i absolutely love the cultivation of mushrooms. it brings me more peace of mind than i ever could have imagined it would. so while i started off only wanting to grow as a way to have my own supply and to learn about them i now enjoy it so much i couldnt imagine life without this hobby. i just am thankful for this place cuz it sux so bad having a hobby and a passion for something and not being able to share it with anyone. and im sure a lot of u know exactly what i mean there
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26865945 - 08/06/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Jcm im with you on the 2g of small shrooms is stronger than 2g of one huge one but that’s another big one people argue when I bring it up here.
A handful of legit members have said big fruits are just as potent so idk what to think. My experience is based off just one time back in the day when I bought an ounce that had one 13g mushroom in it that was weak as fuck.
I’ve been on a mission to grow monsters since then to try it out. Finally got a handful of big ones saved up to see what they got.
--------------------
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26866010 - 08/06/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya i have totally found that to be true in my experiences on more that 1 occassion and im pretty sure not many ppl will really argue that one.😃
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26868615 - 08/07/20 03:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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A.k.a said: Jcm im with you on the 2g of small shrooms is stronger than 2g of one huge one but that’s another big one people argue when I bring it up here.
A handful of legit members have said big fruits are just as potent so idk what to think. My experience is based off just one time back in the day when I bought an ounce that had one 13g mushroom in it that was weak as fuck.
I’ve been on a mission to grow monsters since then to try it out. Finally got a handful of big ones saved up to see what they got.
I found the same thing. I'd take it a step further, though: the higher the yield per substrate (BE), the lower the overall potency too. If I harvest a super dense flush, I usually find it is not quite as potent as say from a tray with half the mushrooms. In fact, it's sometimes the sickest mushrooms that are the strongest - the tiny ones.
That's partly why I growing cambos now on jcm4620's grain-heavy sub (actually grain SPAWN heavy to the tune of 1 part grain spawn per volume to two parts manure/straw mix compared to my 1 part per 6.5 parts powdered horse manure mix). I want to compare their potency in lower yields grown on grain to those grown on a manure-based substrate that produces like gangbusters. I bet the lower-yielding grain-based sub produces a little more potent mushrooms. It's just a hunch and I could be way off base with this idea, but I'll report back when I find out.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 2
#26868648 - 08/07/20 03:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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jcm4620 said: oh and also after that happened to me i became obsessed with mushrooms and was reading and looking at all kinds of shit and i wanted to trip again cuz back i the day before heroin i was a psychedelic nut. but i just didnt wanna buy them i wanted to grow them and learn about them and then this damn hobby became my addiction lol. now the psilocybin is just a secondary effect from the hobby i absolutely love the cultivation of mushrooms. it brings me more peace of mind than i ever could have imagined it would. so while i started off only wanting to grow as a way to have my own supply and to learn about them i now enjoy it so much i couldnt imagine life without this hobby. i just am thankful for this place cuz it sux so bad having a hobby and a passion for something and not being able to share it with anyone. and im sure a lot of u know exactly what i mean there
I think I can thank the admonishments of my parents who were both snake and mushroom phobic, for sparking my interest (I also got into snakes for awhile too but I grew bored with them). I knew if my parents were scared of these mysterious, strange little cute growths we call mushrooms that it was definitely worth looking into it with gusto (and that kind of tells you what kind of kid I was I guess). Of course my attempts to plant a puff ball I found in the yard in a Kerr jar--at least I had the Kerr jar figured out--with fresh potting soil didn't work, though. And this was all very innocent because back then I had no idea about the psychoactive properties of a very few species until later as a teenager when I took up an interest in LSD.
I recall making a projector slide show that explained the basic principles of growing mushrooms from spore to agar or an LC to inoculate spawn all the way to adding that spawn to pasteurized straw or compost and casing. I had all the steps right there--and even a mention of LCs--in that slide show at age 14. The teacher loved it and I got an A on the slide show and presentation. Eventually when I went off to college, I found out about the PF Tek in High Times, bought my first spore syringe, and the rest is history.
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26868676 - 08/07/20 04:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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jcm4620 said: oh i dont mind the methadone so much as i mind the fuckin 100$ a week it cost to go to the clinic lol. but thats exactly how i look at it to just as a diabetic needs insulin i need methadone. but ive been on it over 4 years now so im totally goon at my own pace and il never go back to dope again fuck that shit man. my mind is in a good place and im happy and i owe all of it to this shit. but whats funny is 4 yrs ago when this happened to me i only even ate the damn things cuz i couldnt find anyone to buy them ao i could get dope $$ but when i ate them i literally saw the way man and it was a fucking slap upside the head and right then n there i wanted to say fuck this shit wtf am i doin im an idiot. i went down to the clinic that very next morning and i was able to actually see the dr cuz someone didnt show up. normally u have to wait a week cuz the dr there only comes in 1 day a week so the fact that i was able to get in and start dosing that day was a total sign to me that it was meant to be. i ate those things and ended up down there and i fucking new for a fact it was psilocybin that got me down there and i new right then and there that there was something to this and i never even said anything but to just a cpl ppl and whats funny was over the last 3 years i really started seeing shit about psychedelics as a therapy treatment for addiction and once i started seein all this shit all over the place is when i new i wasnt the only one this happened to. psilocybin is in no way an anti withdrawl type of deal my got i wouldnt wish withdrawl like that on anyone let alone while tripping your balls off FUCK THAT lol. but its an extremely valuable therapy tool for sure but just like blue mentioned it has no cash value to it since its a natural chemical so to say and big pharma cant put a patent on it and rip ppl off so you wont see it used on the scale that it should/could be used. and that is a loss for a lot of ppl who may never even know about it having the potential to help them
Yeah that is the way it was 15 years ago, but today there are many protocols being developed for psychiatry. I expect to see it available to psychiatry within four years (tops). Of course, i've been wrong before that kind of thing, so take it with a grain of salt.
If you really are interested in magic musrhooms and their development in protocols to help people, search on YouTube for Roland Griffiths. Or to get you started check out his TED talk here: I met Giffiths at Burning man and he's about the most cool person you could ever know! I really enjoyed his sharing of his life's work at a Burning Man private conference at the Fractal Nation camp.
And to find out even newer stuff, search for MAPS videos and presentation. They are spearheading a lot of research and coordinating information sharing for teams to teams but also for the researchers to the public too.
I guess the most recent book I listened to about all of the topic of psychedelics was "How to Change Your Mind" by Michael Pollan. It's a great book if you are interested in the topic of psychedelics, including mushrooms, helping people in deeply meaningful and often spiritual ways.
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26868745 - 08/07/20 04:44 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya ive watched all those vids for sure 👍👍
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26868754 - 08/07/20 04:54 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don’t have anything to compare to but the cambos in my signature were on grain spawn heavy sub and they’re wicked. .6 was comparable to an eighth of average cube. Or maybe 1.5 of bomb PE.
It’s looking like medical weed laid the groundwork for psychedelics. I couldn’t believe when three cities in the us decriminalized them out of nowhere.
And just recently I’ve been seeing pictures of “pop up Cannabis dispensaries” in Los Angeles that also sell cubes.
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LAGM2020     
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26868782 - 08/07/20 05:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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i hope one day they will all be legal everywhere especially LSD 🤩🤩🤩🤩
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 2
#26868878 - 08/07/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't see it. "The Man" would never tolerate so many free minds. The things I've learned since I started tripping on the regular...man, society would collapse You can't have everyone seeing through the bullshit.
Plus, this decriminalization is like 3g personal use or some shit
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26868892 - 08/07/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol ya 300 million freed minds that would scare the living shit outta the propaganda artists that are in control
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report *DELETED* [Re: Asura]
#26868905 - 08/07/20 06:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by coAsTal
Reason for deletion: off topic
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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mushboy
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26868907 - 08/07/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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feelsofftopicman
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: mushboy]
#26872266 - 08/09/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Deleted because information was found to be incorrect after notes review.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 02:54 AM)
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26872312 - 08/09/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side
and here u can see my casings dont overlay. il get myc that just comes up thru the small gaps in the casing but thats it. heres just a few pics showing the begining pinning stages that u can see i dont have overlay. just knots and pins
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872458 - 08/09/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side
And that would make sense to me except you see your mycelium ripping through the substrate. Why, then, does it magically stop in 24 hours? That's the part I don't get. Now if it was colonizing the substrate normally over say 4 days or something, then I could understand it. But I've seen your trays after 24 hours and it wasn't like anyone else on the Shroomery. I don't mean it's uncommon. I mean it doesn't exist except for you. Now if it is growing that unhealthfully fast, then why would it stop? Here are my theories:
1) Your casing's pH is out of whack and the mycelium just recoils when it touches it because it gets burned.
2) Your fruiting chamber is around 95% RH, so when the myceium touches the surface, it dies or recoils back into the moisture of the casing
So far that's all I have to explain this unique experience you have with it. What I'd really like is if some people with calibrated hygrometers could explain how their mycelium is triggered to stop in a 100% RH chamber. Unfortunately, even Asura, who is testing this, uses lower relative humidities for pinning. My humdity of 100% RH really goes back to WayLitJim in mycotopia where he said he didn't just use 100% RH but a fog-like environment. That's what I've been doing too, but it's not working for this.
So I'm doing a microgrow and will drop the humidity down to 95% which is about where most people keep it and see if the mycelium overlays. I also will increase the airflow over the surface. My guess it's some combination of those two that explains why you keep having so much evaporation off your casing and the mycelium cannot grow on the surface. That's all I can come up with.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872468 - 08/09/20 10:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side
By the way, jcm4620, I take this as a personal challenge. I've never seen something like this to be honest. I've seen overlay, but this is extreme. And yours doesn't have it. That means somewhere there are some serious differences. I thought it was the substrate, but that didn't work. It must be something else
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872501 - 08/09/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side
I thought of one other possibility just now: what if the calcium carbonate source I have happens to have nitrogen or phosphorus contamination? That would make the casing seem too nutritious. That seems like a long shot, but I am using a fairly new calcium carbonate source. I think I'll go back to oyster shells the next run and rinse it to be double sure.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26872510 - 08/09/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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my pan jam cyan tray had bad overlay. I cased w jiffy though, which includes some coir
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26872649 - 08/10/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol for the 50th time man when i say ripping thru im just using an expression lol its just fucking slang man it dont mean a god damn thing lol . im just saying that it is moving nice and easy thru the bulk substrate bags at a fast pace is all not the casing. it means nothing its simply just a means of expressing how nice and fast its colonizing the bulk thats it. its not some kind of after effect left on the sub its just an expeession of fast colonization of the bulk substrate not nothing to do with the casing👍😃
Edited by jcm4620 (08/10/20 05:38 AM)
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872653 - 08/10/20 02:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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and again the only thing im doing different is how wet i keep my casings up to the point of knots/pins. i mist very heavy when placing to fruit and then il bring it back to that level again in a day or so when it has shown good evaporation. again im not talking puddles wet. that is the biggest difference here i believe.
again no overlay. here these are the pan cyan peace river clones that im running right now. they also have very aggressive growth prior to casing. here they are 1 day before casing.
and here they are right now on day 6 with pins starting to come up throughout u can kinda see the moisture level of the casing a tad also. you can tell it is wet but you can also see they are not puddle of mud wet
so again zero overlay on my end and i cant explain it other than everyones grow environment is different and shit has to be dialed into the environment its in. all i can do is share what im doing with everyone. it doesnt mean that its gnna work exactly the same everywhere else and vice versa. know what i mean?
and also i only use a cheap 1$ hygrometer from home depot lol just as a reference tool just so i can see how my fc is behaving when my fan cycles on. meaning if i see a drop in humidity or not. thats it i honestly havent even looked at them for the last 4 or 5 grows even. i dont think for what im fruiting in there is any point for a fancy humidity control. one day when i move and can set up a nice large fc il def have all that shit but again il still only use it as a reference tool. but right now i know my environment is well humid enough just by how my fruits look when i open it up. the humid air in there wil cover the fruits inside with fine tiny beads of moisture and they seem to really love it. they can stay covered in that all day n be just happy as can be but if they were to be misted or have direct water come into contact with them in any way they hate it and will look like shit and bruise. i just go more by what my fruits look like and how they behave over just some set number know what i mean. all them airstones and pumps are running 24/7 so my environment only changes a tad when my fan comes on for a few min every cpl hours. but again i can only share what i am doing it dont mean its a set way or anything. every environments grows will behave differently
Edited by jcm4620 (08/10/20 05:41 AM)
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872803 - 08/10/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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BH, I wonder if switching to a sand component in your casing-- like coarse playground sand for example-- might help 1)remove excess moisture at the casing/air threshold, and 2) "channel" shafts of mycelium into individualized growth zones more effectively.
I've been studying Mycolorado's sand additive methods for some Tamp Atl#7 and Galindoi I'm preparing to spawn, and giving a lot of thought to the reason that sand seems to be so useful for those.
Perhaps that better "channeling" or "piping" from the base mycelial network upward to the surface through the granules of sand would be an effective way of helping to control over-matting of the surface?
It always appeared to me that primordia form atop "cracks, dips, and crevices" the mycelium perceives on the surface, which makes sense as it would do the same thing in nature, growing up from between debris on the ground. We make our substrate surfaces very flat, which makes those distinctions more subtle. Maybe adding that little bit of coarse sand/grit to your top layer could do something to trigger that effect for this finicky mycelium better?
Just spitballing-- I know you guys are elite-level growers, but I thought I'd mention the thought since I'm using it on Tamps right now and it came to mind.
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26872867 - 08/10/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: BH, I wonder if switching to a sand component in your casing-- like coarse playground sand for example-- might help 1)remove excess moisture at the casing/air threshold, and 2) "channel" shafts of mycelium into individualized growth zones more effectively.
I've been studying Mycolorado's sand additive methods for some Tamp Atl#7 and Galindoi I'm preparing to spawn, and giving a lot of thought to the reason that sand seems to be so useful for those.
Perhaps that better "channeling" or "piping" from the base mycelial network upward to the surface through the granules of sand would be an effective way of helping to control over-matting of the surface?
It always appeared to me that primordia form atop "cracks, dips, and crevices" the mycelium perceives on the surface, which makes sense as it would do the same thing in nature, growing up from between debris on the ground. We make our substrate surfaces very flat, which makes those distinctions more subtle. Maybe adding that little bit of coarse sand/grit to your top layer could do something to trigger that effect for this finicky mycelium better?
Just spitballing-- I know you guys are elite-level growers, but I thought I'd mention the thought since I'm using it on Tamps right now and it came to mind.

Yeah, you practically read my mind, but I did add quite a bit of sand the last time. It was crushed coral calcium-based sand. So the casing was sandy, but something still wasn't right. I'm going to assume there is some kind of issue with either humidity or with nitrogen contamination of the casing. You know it doesn't take very much nitrogen contamination to ruin a casing. Even just a tiny, tiny bit results in overlay (even a spec the size of a grain of sand of miracle grow would ruin it). So I'll rinse the casing the next time by letting it soak underwater and flushing the water off. And I'll knock down the relative humidity to where I think others are which is probably about 95% (I do not believe most people are using 100% RH given these claims it "dried out" by jcm4620--it doesn't dry out if you are at 100% RH--and the toy hygrometers don't tell you much so you best just ignore them entirely). It has to be one of those two things. I just don't see what else it could be.
PS - I also bought some food-grade calcium carbonate from Walmart's site that is used for chalk paint (really cheap too at $18 for 10 pounds of it!). I am about certain that does not have any nitrogen contamination since it wouldn't pass the food-grade then.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/10/20 08:23 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872883 - 08/10/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: and again the only thing im doing different is how wet i keep my casings up to the point of knots/pins. i mist very heavy when placing to fruit and then il bring it back to that level again in a day or so when it has shown good evaporation. again im not talking puddles wet. that is the biggest difference here i believe.
again no overlay. here these are the pan cyan peace river clones that im running right now. they also have very aggressive growth prior to casing. here they are 1 day before casing.
and here they are right now on day 6 with pins starting to come up throughout u can kinda see the moisture level of the casing a tad also. you can tell it is wet but you can also see they are not puddle of mud wet
so again zero overlay on my end and i cant explain it other than everyones grow environment is different and shit has to be dialed into the environment its in. all i can do is share what im doing with everyone. it doesnt mean that its gnna work exactly the same everywhere else and vice versa. know what i mean?
and also i only use a cheap 1$ hygrometer from home depot lol just as a reference tool just so i can see how my fc is behaving when my fan cycles on. meaning if i see a drop in humidity or not. thats it i honestly havent even looked at them for the last 4 or 5 grows even. i dont think for what im fruiting in there is any point for a fancy humidity control. one day when i move and can set up a nice large fc il def have all that shit but again il still only use it as a reference tool. but right now i know my environment is well humid enough just by how my fruits look when i open it up. the humid air in there wil cover the fruits inside with fine tiny beads of moisture and they seem to really love it. they can stay covered in that all day n be just happy as can be but if they were to be misted or have direct water come into contact with them in any way they hate it and will look like shit and bruise. i just go more by what my fruits look like and how they behave over just some set number know what i mean. all them airstones and pumps are running 24/7 so my environment only changes a tad when my fan comes on for a few min every cpl hours. but again i can only share what i am doing it dont mean its a set way or anything. every environments grows will behave differently
jcm4620, you don't need a fancy hygrometer usually. I'm trying to figure out what is different, though, so it would help in this unusual case. The $1 hygrometer does not really tell anyone anything. It's fine, and it might be all you need. But it cannot tell me if you are at 95% or 100%. It just tells you things are kind of wet (over 90% is about all it can really tell you). I would say the chances of it being the humidity are fairly low in my mind, but since I can just push buttons to check that, I will, and no matter what using 95% with additional misting cycles isn't going to hurt anything. Again, with the controller, you just adjust the misting cycles as you see fit. It's no big deal (unlike if you don't have a controller where EVERYTHING is a big deal).
The reason I'm leaning toward is some kind of nitrogen contamination of the calcium carbonate I'm using now (and I don't think the peat or calcium sand are at fault because of where they are sourced and for what purpose. For example the calcium sand is for reef tanks. Even a tiny bit of nitrogen contamination is deadly to a reef tank because it prompts algae to form which kills coral). I recently switched my source of calcium flour, though, and I think I've been seeing this ever since I did. So just to make sure that's taken care of I'll rinse the casing out in a canvas washing bag and use a known-pure calcium carbonate next time I mix up my casing. The stuff I'm using comes from hot springs, and I can imagine there could be a tiny bit of nitrogen runoff contamination from that. I should have been using what I used to use which was oyster shell. I lost it (just found it cleaning my patio though). Also I bought some food-grade premium calcium carbonate for chalk paint at Walmart's online store that will be in next week. I know those two sources are pure because of how they are made, and I'll start to use them again once I rinse what I have this time. I'd give this a 50% chance of being due to nitrogen contamination at this point.
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26872884 - 08/10/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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when did i say it dried out?? nothing of mine drys out i dont know what ur talkin about please explain??
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26872887 - 08/10/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The calcium carbonate I have is food grade as well-- though I admit that I wasn't looking for it to be-- but I just checked after you said that. I only bought a pound, as I'm a very small-scale grower with very limited space for this hobby.

If anyone will be able to fine-tune the process, it's you BH-- jcm has his environment pretty much mastered-- I'm certain you will make it work. On another topic, I am going to replicate your primary horse manure sub with (rye) grain once my bags arrive this week-- do you pre-soak that grain at all prior to adding it in for the pasteurization process, or does the slow cook hydrate the grain?
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872891 - 08/10/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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and like i said my toy hygrometwr is only a reference tool it means nothing to me i dont even look at it. it was strictly in there so i could see if i was getting a good drop in humidity when my fan comes on was all i actually took 1 out of 1 fc and il remove the other all together prolly the next time i clean
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872893 - 08/10/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: when did i say it dried out?? nothing of mine drys out i dont know what ur talkin about please explain??
Your said it evaporated. I'm thinking you might be right. It might have evaporated. That would point to humidity, but again, I'm leaning against humidity at this point. It just doesn't sound right because regardless of what the humidity is, there microclimate humidity is close to 100%, so how could that be it?
I think it's probably chemical contamination. Someone on here said they were using "Jiffy Soil" and experienced overlay. Well, of course, they did. That stuff would totally suck. Even a tiny bit of fertilizer ruins a casing. That's why we cannot use soil mixes for some species. Some do fine with a tiny bit of fertilizer (and will not overlay no matter what you do), but this one is unusually aggressive. It's doing too much ripping as it is, even without fertilizer. I need it to slow down, and somewhere the mycelium is not getting the trigger that there is nothing more to eat. It almost has to be some kind of chemical thing going on I think.
Any other ideas jcm4620?
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26872906 - 08/10/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: The calcium carbonate I have is food grade as well-- though I admit that I wasn't looking for it to be-- but I just checked after you said that. I only bought a pound, as I'm a very small-scale grower with very limited space for this hobby.

If anyone will be able to fine-tune the process, it's you BH-- jcm has his environment pretty much mastered-- I'm certain you will make it work. On another topic, I am going to replicate your primary horse manure sub with (rye) grain once my bags arrive this week-- do you pre-soak that grain at all prior to adding it in for the pasteurization process, or does the slow cook hydrate the grain?
Yeah, I figured you were using food-grade CC. I bet a lot of people are using that or Paul Stamet's recommendation of crushed oyster shells (which is kind of a meal consistency rather than flour).
About rye grain: I had been using millet from a Kaytee blend. This stuff is an amazing deal too:
https://www.amazon.com/Kaytee-100034040-Supreme-Parakeet-Food/dp/B0002AQN8G
However I like the idea of rye even better. The problem is that it's very hard to get rye in a state that does not use it for a cover crop, so while most folks in the midwest can pick it up for like $15 for a 50-pound bag at a "feed store", I couldn't (incidentally, it's not actually used for feed very often; it's a cover crop that is opened for grazing and a small amount of it is used as an actual crop). I found a weird way around the problem using a co-opt named Azure Standard, though:
https://www.azurestandard.com/
So I just got 50-pounds of rye for $30 or so, and split it up into vacuum-sealed (with oxygen absorber) FoodSaver bags--about 5-pounds each--so it can last many years.
I think rye probably works better than WBS, but I must admit that I've not tried to fruit on it yet. I say that simply because I think the larger grains probably dole out the goodies more slowly. And I think rye is less likely to contaminate too if there is a bit of stray mold in the substrate. Lastly, jcm4620 has shown it definitely supports great growth since he uses a tremendous amount as a spawn grain (1/3rd of his substrate's volume no less!!!).
I do not believe it matters if you presoak either WBS or rye before adding it to the final fruit-out substrate destined for the pressure cooker. In either case, you have to take into consideration the water content will eventually become 50% as always with grains. So if you add say 10oz of grain (rye or WBS) you always add 10oz of extra water (my formula takes all that into account). Likewise, if you add it presoaked and drained to my fruting substrate, you need to remove 10oz of water.
If you are making grain spawn, that's totally different because you don't want the grain starches hanging around the surface of spawn. It will increase the chances of contamination if you do that and can make the grains stick a lot worse. So always soak and rinse well for spawn prep (I think RogerRabbit has some tek), but for final fruit-out substrate, it's optional.
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26872909 - 08/10/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks so much for the knowledge-- I am blessed to have you guys on tap for advice 
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872915 - 08/10/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: lol for the 50th time man when i say ripping thru im just using an expression lol its just fucking slang man it dont mean a god damn thing lol . im just saying that it is moving nice and easy thru the bulk substrate bags at a fast pace is all not the casing. it means nothing its simply just a means of expressing how nice and fast its colonizing the bulk thats it. its not some kind of after effect left on the sub its just an expeession of fast colonization of the bulk substrate not nothing to do with the casing👍😃
jcm4620, I have a confession: I'm kind of jerking your chain with this. Sorry I have a sick sense of humor I guess because each time you'd protest on me getting upset about it "ripping through" I was laughing over here. I knew what you meant, but the truth is that because it is such an aggressive colonizer, it becomes even more important that you don't have any stray contamination in the casing soil. Obviously, though, the idea of aggressive growth is a good thing usually. It's why I got 320% BE too. Now I just need to figure out why my trays aren't getting the memo about stopping colonization...
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26872917 - 08/10/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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when i talk about evaporating im talking about a very small anount of evaporation as a pinning trigger nothing more. nothing ever ever ever drys out
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872919 - 08/10/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol well now u tell me im over here like wtf why dont he get wht im talkn about 😂😂
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872921 - 08/10/20 09:15 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Haha, you guys
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26872966 - 08/10/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: when i talk about evaporating im talking about a very small anount of evaporation as a pinning trigger nothing more. nothing ever ever ever drys out
Yeah, and I think I should still knock down my RH a tiny bit next time. The whole point of me adding the misting timer (it's the box on the bottom of the picture below) was so I could encourage a tiny bit of evaporation for the pinning by setting the RH down to say 97% and add misting cycles, but I haven't been doing that. I will drop the RH to 97% next time and increase the misting cycles.

PS - By the way, for some stupid reason I have 7 of those digital timers that I used one for the controller box! I was cleaning stuff up and found them spread out deep through my electronic junk. I guess I kept forgetting I'd already bought them! That reminds me a an elderly friend of mine who died that I clean up his house after he passed. He'd have like 4 to 6 pairs of needle nose pliers or any tool because I guess he kept forgetting he already had a bunch of them. It was kind of sad but everyone who helped clean up got a nice set of nearly brand new tools out of it. Maybe that is my future too. I'll die and end up having 5 to 10 copies of everything! I hope not, but that's the way I'm headed it seems.
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26872969 - 08/10/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let me send you my address to put some of your snazzy mush tek to good use, should the sad day ever come
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26873003 - 08/10/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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il die and all my friends can come pick thru what mushrooms they want lol😂😂😂
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26873190 - 08/10/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: il die and all my friends can come pick thru what mushrooms they want lol😂😂😂
It'll be in my private will.
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gt40
I will proof smthng



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26873867 - 08/10/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Blue Helix If we recalculate your LC volume per bag which is 140ml to LC volume per one tray, what will be the number? It's interesting how many ml were spent to fill up the whole grow)
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: gt40]
#26873873 - 08/10/20 06:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I *think* it's 140ml per bag and one bag is providing for multiple trays.
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eatyualive
Eat's You Alive :)



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: gt40] 1
#26873875 - 08/10/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Blue helix, blast from the past. Glad you are still around!
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: eatyualive]
#26873882 - 08/10/20 06:50 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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mr big cock himself droppin in lol i still cant get over that pic u posted earlier eat🤩🤩👍
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura] 2
#26874017 - 08/10/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: I *think* it's 140ml per bag and one bag is providing for multiple trays.
Yes, jcm4620 is correct. I usually use 140 ml per one large spawn bag. The size spawn bag I use can handle up to 10 lbs of substrate, but if you put two 10-pounders in my AA921 pressure cooker, you have to run a full five hours and make sure the two bags have a space at least down the middle of the bags for steam penetration. It's probably a little better just using two 5-pound spawn bags, running the cooker for 4 hours, and inoculating each with 140 ml. Each tray takes about 2.5 pounds of substrate. So 10 lbs would lay 4 trays.
Does it even matter how much LC you use? That's a lot like asking if it matters how big the mycelium piece you use to inoculate agar. In other words, it doesn't matter really how much LC your use in the end. I'd try to get at least 60ml in a 5-pound bag, but if you could only get less, it just slows down the colonization is all. Hell five drops would probably eventually colonize through even. The key is to try to get the LC to drain down the bag sides and to the bottom of the bag by pulling the plastic away from the substrate during the injection. Then once you seal it all up with the hot glue, mix the bags well by kneading them. Again, using 5-pound bags makes the kneading a lot easier.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 02:53 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: eatyualive]
#26874030 - 08/10/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
eatyualive said: Blue helix, blast from the past. Glad you are still around! 
Hey, hi! I see you fruits are pretty excited! Nice! Yeah, it's been awhile, but I tend to come and then go for awhile. I've got a bunch of new stuff, though, thanks to Asura and jcm, so I'll be testing them out for awhile I think.
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gt40
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26874354 - 08/11/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Asura said: I *think* it's 140ml per bag and one bag is providing for multiple trays.
Yes, jcm4620 is correct. I usually use 140 ml per one large spawn bag. The size spawn bag I use can handle up to 10 lbs of substrate, but if you put two 10-pounders in my AA921 pressure cooker, you have to run a full five hours and make sure the two bags have a space at least down the middle of the bags for steam penetration. It's probably a little better just using two 5-pound spawn bags, running the cooker for 4 hours, and inoculating each with 140 ml.
Each 5 pounds of substrate can lay four 13"x9" glass trays at about 2" depth provided you are using my manure-based formula, which I recommend. For the grain-based one--which I don't recommend--the substrate is twice as dense, the yield half as much, and you can only really do 2 trays deep enough (I tried 3 and it was too shallow for full fruiting body development). Take home is to not use grain-based substrates without straw (either by adding the grain to the fruit out substrate or using excessive spawning ratios).
Jcm4620 has straw in his grain-based substrate mix, which lightens it up, so he probably is somewhere in between those two in terms of density (I'm guessing about three 13"x9" trays but I know he uses a different size than that).
Does it even matter how much LC you use? That's a lot like asking if it matters how big the mycelium piece you use to inoculate agar. In other words, it doesn't matter really how much LC your use in the end. I'd try to get at least 60ml in a 5-pound bag, but if you could only get less, it just slows down the colonization is all. Hell five drops would probably eventually colonize through even. The key is to try to get the LC to drain down the bag sides and to the bottom of the bag by pulling the plastic away from the substrate during the injection. Then once you seal it all up with the hot glue, mix the bags well by kneading them. Again, using 5-pound bags makes the kneading a lot easier.
Cool, thank you. It's curious because I'm back to LC and want to know how much I should prepare for same speed
Are you still mixing dry WBS with other hydrated stuff in bags? If yes it means you don't prepare WBS before putting it in bag at all? And generally speaking is it a neсessity to add grain in manure/verm mix with LC inoculation?
Edited by gt40 (08/11/20 01:43 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: gt40]
#26874380 - 08/11/20 02:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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MAJOR CORRECTION OF A STUPID ERROR I MADE Wow, I just discovered something I had done wrong with my grain-based trays (which failed). I was claiming the recipe was twice as dense at the manure-based one. That is totally wrong. I made a stupid mistake. Each 13"x9" tray takes about 2.5 pounds of grain-based or manure-based substrate, period. The grain-based one is a little more dense but not much.
Because of this fact, I intend to compare side-by-side the grain-based substrate and the manure-based one. And all bad things I said about the grain-based substrate are incorrect or should be ignored. It was a simple math error. I will update the log when I have yield and potency comparison for the two substrates.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 03:35 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: gt40]
#26874387 - 08/11/20 03:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cool, thank you. It's curious because I'm back to LC and want to know how much I should prepare for same speed
Are you still mixing dry WBS with other hydrated stuff in bags? If yes it means you don't prepare WBS before putting it in bag at all? And generally speaking is it a neсessity to add grain in manure/verm mix with LC inoculation?
First, please see my update above. A 10-pound bag only does 4 trays, not 8. Also there is no evidence that once I fixed that error that the grain-based trays perform worse yet. Nor is the grain-based substrate as drastically different in terms of density as the manure-based one. I just made a big calculator mistake is all.
Yes, the formulae I presented (the grain-based on and manure-based one) both are using dry ingredients. There is no point to hydrating the grains in this case, and if you do so, you'll screw up the water content.
I am not sure how well the manure-based substrate would actually work without the grain. The reason is that the grains serve as a launching point for the mycelium. LC is much stronger than spores, but it still might inoculate just manure/verm fairly weakly. And so I cannot recommend it because I've not tried it.
PS - If you take out 10oz of dry grain, you must also take out 10oz of water. For any amount of grain you remove, remove an equal amount of water.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 03:41 AM)
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26874438 - 08/11/20 04:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can I ask a stupid question in here?
I keep seeing, especially in this thread, everyone talk about liquid cultures. I'm new to mycology so I'm still learning but just wanted to get clarification i guess.
Is a lc just spores dropped into sugar water basically? Or do you turn agar pucks into a lc? I've also read that lc's can be fucky and contam quickly. But if that was the case then I cant imagine so many TC's are cool with it.
Sorry if this is too stupid this morning
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E] 1
#26874513 - 08/11/20 06:55 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Myc_Hunt said: Can I ask a stupid question in here?
I keep seeing, especially in this thread, everyone talk about liquid cultures. I'm new to mycology so I'm still learning but just wanted to get clarification i guess.
Is a lc just spores dropped into sugar water basically? Or do you turn agar pucks into a lc? I've also read that lc's can be fucky and contam quickly. But if that was the case then I cant imagine so many TC's are cool with it.
Sorry if this is too stupid this morning
Hello. I am a big proponent of liquid cultures, which is why they are mentioned here. I like them because (a) there are less steps to growing than a typical spawn-based technique, (b) they seem to yield more on average, (c) thy are injection-based for the most part so one doesn't need a flow hood or still air box (SAB) much (if at all).
A liquid culture is created by making a 4% per weight sugar solution in a Kerr jar with a special kind of lid. The jar and sugar solution are sterilized. Spores, another LC, or an agar wedge are introduced into the jar as an inoculate. If you are getting spores from non-professional sources, you should probably run them on agar first. And usually spore water won't work into them either simply because the vendors send spore water in syringes that aren't properly capped (if I made you spore solution and sent it to you in a vacutainer, though, it would work fine). Some people continuously spin their LC with a Teflon magnet like I do. Others just wish it around every day a couple times. LCs take from 3 to 10 days to colonize to the point I'd use them usually, depending on a lot of factors.
LC are not "funky" at all nor do they contaminate any easier or more quickly than grain spawn does, and people who say that probably don't know what the heck they are even doing. Actually, another reason I like LCs is because they seldom go bad once established whereas agar plates do constantly (especially if you use those stupid Petri dishes people rave about and parafilm). On agar it is easier to spot contamination: it's on a flat (2D) surface and looks significantly different by color, shape, or growing style than target mycelium usually does. Further, on agar one can cut contamination away so you can use multiples agar plates to clean stuff up. Contamination in an LC usually has an unusual appearance too (cloudiness that never settles or extremely rapid mycelium that fills the jar in one or maybe two days rather than 4 or 5). In fact, for someone like me, I can tell contamination in an LC about as well as agar, but newbies won't be able to do that. Once an LC is contaminated--and it should never be in you follow my teks--unlike an agar dish it needs to be destroyed, though, because there is no saving a contaminated LC.
TCs are cool with LC-based techniques because they work better. Of course, not everyone would agree with that, but I'll challenge anyone to get the yields I do with spawn. It ain't gonna happen. In the grow this thread is about I got 3X the yield of a typical spawn run using the same amount of substrate at 320%. Also a LC can be stored as easily as any agar plate in a cheap vacutainer (special test tube with rubber cap) and is LESS likely to contaminate while in storage than agar (again, especially in the ridiculous Petri dishes that rely on parafilm usually to stop contamination and routinely contaminate around the margins due to their poor design).
Having said all that, any way you grow mushrooms is going to take dedication and attention to detail. There is no magic technique that both produces a lot of mushrooms and is easy enough to do almost sleeping. The easiest method is the PF Tek but the yields are very low (especially for the amount of effort it takes) and it only can fruit cubensis, not these much, much stronger little white/grey mushrooms.
For more information about LCs, please stop reading threads written by ignorant people that bash them and, instead, focus on my older threads that show amazing results using LCs. If you have questions about them, feel free to PM me, but make sure you do your homework first, please. Thanks!
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 07:21 AM)
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26874529 - 08/11/20 07:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'll reply to BH's most excellent post with the resources that he already posted that can be used to build proper LC lids and storage:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26843896#26843896
BH, my final component, the valves, finally arrived, so I'll be making my lids in the coming week.
So excited about starting my LC journey
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26874544 - 08/11/20 07:24 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: I'll reply to BH's most excellent post with the resources that he already posted that can be used to build proper LC lids and storage:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26843896#26843896
BH, my final component, the valves, finally arrived, so I'll be making my lids in the coming week.
So excited about starting my LC journey 
Great news! Yeah, those LC lids rock! They are just so easy to use and work wonders. Remember to always make sure your filter is not clogged when sterilizing an LC. You should be able to blow air through it without much effort.
Most people start just swishing LCs periodically rather than continuously stir them with a Teflon-coated stir bar. How are you going to do it?
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26874571 - 08/11/20 07:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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As you mentioned, I'll start with the manual swish method-- at my small scale I can't justify the expense of a mag stirrer right now as I'd use it too infrequently to warrant the expense--
I will be tapping your brain on how you use the vacutainers as long-term LC storage in the coming weeks too-- that's one of the most interesting things that I look forward to having the ability to do. They're plenty small, so I can conveniently get away with storing a couple innocuously in the fridge for long periods
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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dfwerydfhg
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26874672 - 08/11/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm curious about the effect of FAE (rather, the CO2 level, which it seems nobody measures because cubes largely don't care).
A FC like jcm's has a lot of air turnover, somewhere around 4-8x per hour. Whereas from what I've seen of yours (Blue Helix) the only new air comes in via the fogger, and of course also through whatever gaps/leaks may exist in the walls. This must cause a big difference in average CO2 levels.
Of course the average won't necessarily tell the whole story- you've mentioned not pointing the internal air circulation fans directly at the trays, so the local-substrate CO2, especially after the start of fruiting could be much higher. But I'd still expect a big difference between the two FC styles. Is this something you've ever considered re: pans?
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: dfwerydfhg]
#26874819 - 08/11/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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my fc has those 2 pumps running a total of 6 airstones 2 12 inch and 4 6 inch 24/7 so i basicly have constant fae
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26874832 - 08/11/20 10:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: As you mentioned, I'll start with the manual swish method-- at my small scale I can't justify the expense of a mag stirrer right now as I'd use it too infrequently to warrant the expense--
I will be tapping your brain on how you use the vacutainers as long-term LC storage in the coming weeks too-- that's one of the most interesting things that I look forward to having the ability to do. They're plenty small, so I can conveniently get away with storing a couple innocuously in the fridge for long periods 
Maybe I'll post about to make a magnetic spinner for $10 next at the precisely correct spin speed for this hobby (not that super fast crap like the guys who put a magnet on a PC fan). The truth is, I wouldn't spend over $15 for a magnetic stirrer either, but it doesn't cost more than that if you know what you are doing.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: dfwerydfhg] 1
#26874866 - 08/11/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dfwerydfhg said: I'm curious about the effect of FAE (rather, the CO2 level, which it seems nobody measures because cubes largely don't care).
A FC like jcm's has a lot of air turnover, somewhere around 4-8x per hour. Whereas from what I've seen of yours (Blue Helix) the only new air comes in via the fogger, and of course also through whatever gaps/leaks may exist in the walls. This must cause a big difference in average CO2 levels.
Of course the average won't necessarily tell the whole story- you've mentioned not pointing the internal air circulation fans directly at the trays, so the local-substrate CO2, especially after the start of fruiting could be much higher. But I'd still expect a big difference between the two FC styles. Is this something you've ever considered re: pans?
CO2 levels rising is almost a myth. If your chamber is that crappy, you let me know because it would take serious talent to rise CO2 levels. Mostly FAE in general is a myth. You want so little air exchange that even bringing air in from the outside is debatable at all since the chamber will have cracks in it that draw new air in and allow the old out. What is not a myth is INTERNAL AIR EXCHANGE.
What is internal air exchange? That's when you move air extremely slowly inside your chamber. I use a few PC fans hooked up to some old power cubes from junk I threw out. I never toss a power cube like the kind you plug into the wall. I have probably 40 of them now that I've collected of all voltages, DC, and AC. Most PC fans--which I mostly snag from broken stuff but have bought for a few bucks each too--can be operated from around 6V to 12V DC. I like to operate them at the lower voltages unless they are the type that are "silent" which really just means they set the RPM lower using a resistor in the path (equal to setting input voltage lower is all). I also have bought a couple of these USB clip fans without the annoying plastic fan blade guard that work nice because they have this adjustable pole they are on (I paid $10 for 2 of these at the time):
https://www.amazon.com/ARCTIC-Breeze-Mobile-Flexible-Portable/dp/B003XN24GY
My point is this: FAE is a myth for the most part and something that a fool chases to bring down CO2 when CO2 never rises if you have internal air exchange in the first place. Internal air exchange is where it's at, and cheap little PC fans can be put in the fruiting chamber for that.
As far as feeling their air moving inside the chamber, if you can feel it right over the casing soil with your hand, it's too much. You want to move air, not dry out the casing.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 11:35 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26874867 - 08/11/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Who would be interested in making a perfect magnetic stirrer for $12? Anyone?
Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 11:34 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26874928 - 08/11/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here are 3 perfect in-chamber PC silent (i.e. low RPM) fans (0.23A, 12V DC) perfect for a chamber:
https://www.amazon.com/uphere-3-Pack-Computer-120mm-Cooling/dp/B072LDYKQ6
Here're two 12V DC 1A power cubes for you for your chamber (a single one of these can run all three fans by the way):
https://www.amazon.com/ALITOVE-100-240V-Converter-Security-Surveillance/dp/B082D7W362
Now your entire chamber's fan situation is solved for less than $25 for forever with 3 fans and a backup power supply in case you blew up one of them somehow. Of course you still need to strip the wires and twist them together, but I assume most people can figure that much out.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26874951 - 08/11/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: As you mentioned, I'll start with the manual swish method-- at my small scale I can't justify the expense of a mag stirrer right now as I'd use it too infrequently to warrant the expense--
I will be tapping your brain on how you use the vacutainers as long-term LC storage in the coming weeks too-- that's one of the most interesting things that I look forward to having the ability to do. They're plenty small, so I can conveniently get away with storing a couple innocuously in the fridge for long periods 
Make sure you buy those 100 vacutainers for $16 at Walmart Pet Pharmacy through the link I sent. You will never find a price like that anywhere else.
Vacutainers are super easy to use. They come sterile too, so you just poke the needle in the cap and they'll suck your LC right in there. You might have to pull the plunger back to get rid of extra air in there before you pull out the needle. That way they never pop off during say a low pressure event (like a big storm). Let me know if you need any help with them, but they are pretty simple really.
Also you can reuse them almost as many times as you want. You got to dry them and pull the extra air out before you pressure cook them to resterilize them is all.
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26875049 - 08/11/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Make sure you buy those 100 vacutainers for $16 at Walmart Pet Pharmacy through the link I sent. You will never find a price like that anywhere else.
Vacutainers are super easy to use. They come sterile too, so you just poke the needle in the cap and they'll suck your LC right in there. You might have to pull the plunger back to get rid of extra air in there before you pull out the needle. That way they never pop off during say a low pressure event (like a big storm). Let me know if you need any help with them, but they are pretty simple really.
Also you can reuse them almost as many times as you want. You got to dry them and pull the extra air out before you pressure cook them to resterilize them is all.
I did! They were I think $21 shipped 
And I'm all ears on the DIY stirrer-- (you should really make a journal post with all your TEK's brother -- you have such a wealth of good info that would be a great collection if put in one place)
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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dfwerydfhg
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26875079 - 08/11/20 12:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
CO2 levels rising is almost a myth. If your chamber is that crappy, you let me know because it would take serious talent to rise CO2 levels. Mostly FAE in general is a myth. You want so little air exchange that even bringing air in from the outside is debatable at all since the chamber will have cracks in it that draw new air in and allow the old out. What is not a myth is INTERNAL AIR EXCHANGE.
What is internal air exchange? That's when you move air extremely slowly inside your chamber. I use a few PC fans hooked up to some old power cubes from junk I threw out. I never toss a power cube like the kind you plug into the wall. I have probably 40 of them now that I've collected of all voltages, DC, and AC. Most PC fans--which I mostly snag from broken stuff but have bought for a few bucks each too--can be operated from around 6V to 12V DC. I like to operate them at the lower voltages unless they are the type that are "silent" which really just means they set the RPM lower using a resistor in the path (equal to setting input voltage lower is all). I also have bought a couple of these USB clip fans without the annoying plastic fan blade guard that work nice because they have this adjustable pole they are on (I paid $10 for 2 of these at the time):
https://www.amazon.com/ARCTIC-Breeze-Mobile-Flexible-Portable/dp/B003XN24GY
My point is this: FAE is a myth for the most part and something that a fool chases to bring down CO2 when CO2 never rises if you have internal air exchange in the first place. Internal air exchange is where it's at, and cheap little PC fans can be put in the fruiting chamber for that.
As far as feeling their air moving inside the chamber, if you can feel it right over the casing soil with your hand, it's too much. You want to move air, not dry out the casing.
Cool. I asked because I've got a couple of reishi blocks fruiting in separate but mostly identical chambers. One is growing antlers, the other started growing conks. One of my tubs is clearly leakier than the other 
Very handy to know, because I'm worried about the amount of moisture the jcm-style FC I'm building will send into my room. But if internal recirculation and some minor leaks are all that's needed, I can rig something up to keep the air mostly closed-loop. Will be an interesting experiment anyway, if I manage to grow anything other than mold.
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26875083 - 08/11/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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agreed
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: dfwerydfhg]
#26875524 - 08/11/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dfwerydfhg said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
CO2 levels rising is almost a myth. If your chamber is that crappy, you let me know because it would take serious talent to rise CO2 levels. Mostly FAE in general is a myth. You want so little air exchange that even bringing air in from the outside is debatable at all since the chamber will have cracks in it that draw new air in and allow the old out. What is not a myth is INTERNAL AIR EXCHANGE.
What is internal air exchange? That's when you move air extremely slowly inside your chamber. I use a few PC fans hooked up to some old power cubes from junk I threw out. I never toss a power cube like the kind you plug into the wall. I have probably 40 of them now that I've collected of all voltages, DC, and AC. Most PC fans--which I mostly snag from broken stuff but have bought for a few bucks each too--can be operated from around 6V to 12V DC. I like to operate them at the lower voltages unless they are the type that are "silent" which really just means they set the RPM lower using a resistor in the path (equal to setting input voltage lower is all). I also have bought a couple of these USB clip fans without the annoying plastic fan blade guard that work nice because they have this adjustable pole they are on (I paid $10 for 2 of these at the time):
https://www.amazon.com/ARCTIC-Breeze-Mobile-Flexible-Portable/dp/B003XN24GY
My point is this: FAE is a myth for the most part and something that a fool chases to bring down CO2 when CO2 never rises if you have internal air exchange in the first place. Internal air exchange is where it's at, and cheap little PC fans can be put in the fruiting chamber for that.
As far as feeling their air moving inside the chamber, if you can feel it right over the casing soil with your hand, it's too much. You want to move air, not dry out the casing.
Cool. I asked because I've got a couple of reishi blocks fruiting in separate but mostly identical chambers. One is growing antlers, the other started growing conks. One of my tubs is clearly leakier than the other 
Very handy to know, because I'm worried about the amount of moisture the jcm-style FC I'm building will send into my room. But if internal recirculation and some minor leaks are all that's needed, I can rig something up to keep the air mostly closed-loop. Will be an interesting experiment anyway, if I manage to grow anything other than mold.
How about this: try it and see. Here's the thing: for the vast majority of chambers I've reviewed, the amount of leaking air is plenty provided they maintain internal air circulation. I've actually seen people airing out their Martha Stewart style chambers with a bathroom fan! That's just plain stupid. The mushrooms do breath oxygen--that much is true--but look up how tiny the amount. On page 183 of "The Mushroom Cultivator" by Paul Stamets, the books says that pan cyans require 2 air exchanges PER HOUR (I'm sure this figure is highly conservative too in that I bet they'd do fine with one per hour). If you really think your chamber, with internal air circulation, isn't getting a replacement of the air each hour or two then add a bubbler like jcm4620.
Mold, by the way, has very little to do with fresh air exchange. That's another old myth. Mold has nearly the exact same environmental niche that the mycelium we want does. It is true that it can survive lower fresh air exchanges than say pan cyans does, but it doesn't do any worse with ample FAE. Mold likes stagnant air more because it likes 100% RH best (can be a micro-climate too), not that it enjoys CO2. Still our prepinning pan cyans also loves 100% RH. In fact you can peg it at 100% until pin development without a problem, and even then it can tolerate 100% RH during fruit development some say (it only stunts growth a tiny bit if at all).
So you fear mold, right? There is no need to do that. Instead, ask yourself this one simple question: are there uncolonized portions of the substrate or casing that are very wet for an extended period of time (say over 3 days)? If there are, then the mold spores that you breath in with every waking breath, that are all over you and your grow chamber (unless you happen to live in an industrial clean room) will take hold on that surface. If not those mold spores will going all the rest of them as mycelium food. Let me give you an example.
In this thread I light scratched my casings to get rid of overlay, soon after the trays promptly all molded. Why? Because the mycelium was too weak to take hold of the mycelium I broke up again (to reconnect with it) so the fragments and casing became mold food. That's all that happened. If it had been cubes, the mycelium of the substrate would have reached up and reconnected faster than the mold could grow and there wouldn't have been a problem.
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26876306 - 08/12/20 04:38 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey blue helix, this is a late response to my question (LC) yesterday but wanted to thank you anyways. I wasn't trying to shit on LC's. I have been doing this stuff for like 5 months and don't know everything yet.
That's why I posted the question, because on one hand I've heard LC's are tricky and contam quickly. But since you're having great success as a TC with them I figured you'd be an, if not the authority on LC's and I should probably ask you.
Anyways, thanks again and I hope to one day understand LC's and give them a shot, but that's another project. I just got LME and actual agar plates that work (thinking of writing a grow log so people can learn from my failures) so I'm starting to work with that now and LC's will be next after I get some pan fruits.
Thanks again man and sorry if my original question was too stupid
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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funchky
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26876766 - 08/12/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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blue Helix - Ive read through many of your excellent logs and really appreciate all of the detail you've put in to them. I'd love to know more in depth about how you set up and dial in your fruiting chamber. Iv gathered bits an pieces (especially above concerning internal air exchange),and would really love to learn more about your setup as I believe this is where Ive been running into problems.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: dfwerydfhg]
#26876969 - 08/12/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
dfwerydfhg said: I'm curious about the effect of FAE (rather, the CO2 level, which it seems nobody measures because cubes largely don't care).
A FC like jcm's has a lot of air turnover, somewhere around 4-8x per hour. Whereas from what I've seen of yours (Blue Helix) the only new air comes in via the fogger, and of course also through whatever gaps/leaks may exist in the walls. This must cause a big difference in average CO2 levels.
Of course the average won't necessarily tell the whole story- you've mentioned not pointing the internal air circulation fans directly at the trays, so the local-substrate CO2, especially after the start of fruiting could be much higher. But I'd still expect a big difference between the two FC styles. Is this something you've ever considered re: pans?
Sorry, I forgot to answer this. Okay, speaking of jcm4620, he does have more FAE, but it's not as much as you said. That's because my chamber does introduce a tiny trickle of air when the humidifier is off (at all times really). That was accomplished by taping a PC fan on the input vent size of the ultrasonic with gaffers tape (which is just a cloth no-goo version of duct tape):

Here's the a 1" PVC pipe with small holes drilled in it running down the length of one of the three shelves (each one can hold up to four 9"x13" glass trays - which is several times as big as needed for me):

So while I'm sure the vast majority of air is introduced by the simple internal air circulation (which I promote with multiple PC fans) also a tiny trickle of air is pushed through the PVC tubes and released over the trays. Now, note, that you sure as hell cannot feel it with your hand but you see the effect of it via the mist when the humidifier is on by cycling on and off the PC fan. The PVC insides tend to have water on them even when the ultrasonic is off because it cycles on so often, so it's not like super dry air ends up being released over the trays. It is far wetter, though, when the ultrasonic is on since mist hits the insides of the PVC than off and the mist particles are released, but the fact that drier air comes in when the humidifier is off is a GOOD thing. You want to be able to keep the RH below 100% too! Actually that's the hard part - making a chamber where the humidity doesn't just peg to 100% or swing super high and super low all the time because that will dry out your casing soil and you'll constantly be fighting it.
I don't have a way to measure CO2 levels other than the expression of the fruits themselves. What I look for are stems that seem unusually long when I know the phenotype isn't like that. What I mean is sometimes fruits are long just by genetics, but that is usually not the case. I know cubes are often touted as being bullet-proof, but in my experience some of them are sensitive to higher CO2 and elongate if they are kept in it (like say in a tote without much circulation). So when I grew those strains of cubes (Mazatepec was like that) I made sure the stems did not elongate in the chamber. The same applies to pan cyans: there are phenotypes that are longer genetically, but if you are seeing super log stems when no one else is, the problem is probably your chamber's excessive CO2. And I don't see lengthening of the fruits in my chamber, so I think I'm good. You want the cubes to look like this (these were Ecuadorians by the way - such a nice strain!):
 
By beef about a lot of chambers is simply that too much fresh air is introduced OR not enough. Sure you need _some_ fresh air but pan cyans, for example, are rated at 2 per HOUR according to Paul Stamets's masterpiece "The Mushroom Cultivator"! That's not very much in a small chamber of wire shelves. And when you introduce too much fresh air, most chambers will have large humidity swings or the humidity will peg at 100% - neither are good things to happen. It's a delicate balance in there, and unless you are getting hints that the CO2 is too high, don't fix it if it ain't broken is my philosophy.
You mentioned about the shelves being stainless steel: hell yeah that would be nice!!! However, I looked at stainless steel options and they are EXPENSIVE AS HELL! There was no way I was going to pay $800 or whatever they costed, so I got some old server rack shelves from an auction for next to nothing (like $35 for that unit if memory serves me) and said the hell with it. Yes, they have rusted horribly over the years. Yes, I will never be able to use them again when I move and might even need to take a grinder to break them apart for disposal. But that's not a tragedy at $35 for the unit, and the mushrooms couldn't care less about that.
Now having rust might encourage mold spores to sick in it (I don't know really), but I have a solution for that too. Each time I finish a grow, I ozonate the chamber with this (which I think I paid $45 for on eBay via an open box) for about 20 minutes and let it dissipate:

Given how small the chamber is, 20 minutes of a 5000mg/hour ozone unit like that is like HUNDREDS times the concentration and length of time needed to be ozone sterilized. Nothing survives that I'm sure, even insects like mushroom gnats or larvae hiding out in there. It basically sterilizes everything if my calculations are right. But it's not long enough to ruin the plastic and furniture wrap covering, so I'm good.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/12/20 02:35 PM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26877025 - 08/12/20 02:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Myc_Hunt said: Hey blue helix, this is a late response to my question (LC) yesterday but wanted to thank you anyways. I wasn't trying to shit on LC's. I have been doing this stuff for like 5 months and don't know everything yet.
That's why I posted the question, because on one hand I've heard LC's are tricky and contam quickly. But since you're having great success as a TC with them I figured you'd be an, if not the authority on LC's and I should probably ask you.
Anyways, thanks again and I hope to one day understand LC's and give them a shot, but that's another project. I just got LME and actual agar plates that work (thinking of writing a grow log so people can learn from my failures) so I'm starting to work with that now and LC's will be next after I get some pan fruits.
Thanks again man and sorry if my original question was too stupid
Thanks for the compliments, but nowadays everyone seems to be pumping out beautiful pan cyan, cambo, and tropicalis canopies! When I started (back when there were dinosaurs and civilization hadn't formed yet) it wasn't like that, but it looks like to me that many people have settled on techniques that work for them. And not all (maybe less than half) are using LCs, so it's nothing about that or my earlier grow logs. It's more tha people are paying attention to detail and listening to what their grows tell them. I like LCs, of course, but I'm not egotistical enough to even start to think it's the only way (or even the best necessarily). But no matter what way you grow, you have to listen to the grows to zero in on what works for you. I also think that nowadays those who are using agar are helping weed out the genetic train wreck this hobby was leading to. I'm thankful for those who do that too because I don't like doing it personally. I'd rather just enjoy the literal fruits of their labor!
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26877085 - 08/12/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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just wanted to add that while i do have a constant far there is no air movement inside my fc other than the updraft created by the air bubbling thru the warm water and rising up and out while its there you cant feel it at all. i dont have any actual moving air but for the fan thats outside just pointed twd the tub that comes on every 3 hours for 2 min. i do have a ceiling fan that runs on a low setting tho 24/7 just to have a slight circulation of air cuz that door stays closed as a precaution against drop by visitors and i hate stagnate air
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26877096 - 08/12/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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lol speaking of genetic train wreck lol
god this grow is terrible lol but this is what happens when u clone the 2 good fruits out of a retarded tray. i knew it was a bad idea and i did it anyway cuz i was desperate🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️ rdu going to grain this weekend and i am looking fwd to those a lot
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: funchky] 2
#26877107 - 08/12/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
funchky said: blue Helix - Ive read through many of your excellent logs and really appreciate all of the detail you've put in to them. I'd love to know more in depth about how you set up and dial in your fruiting chamber. Iv gathered bits an pieces (especially above concerning internal air exchange),and would really love to learn more about your setup as I believe this is where Ive been running into problems.
Well, what do you want to know? Here are some pictures for you, okay?
        
Below is a summary of some of the key points to the chamber:- The chamber is made of four 4'x1.5' (48"x18") wire shelves (three to put trays and the top as a ceiling.
- The shelves are covered with reflective bubble insulation on the three back sides. It's kept in place via hot glue blobs. The top and front faces are furniture wrap draped over. The front is secured with some side magnets for easy access.
- I use a home constructed temperature/humidity combined controller via Dwyer's offerings (for more details on how to build one yourself, see this thread : https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26854793 )
- heat is provided via a 40W red bulb (doesn't matter the color but the red bulb doesn't light up the whole room which I liked). On the shelve above the heat bulb, there is a layer of insulation and when the heat bulb is on to protect the bottom trays and a PC fan blows on it as show in the pictures. The heat rises and is distributed by PC fans.
- When the controller turns on the ultrasonic or I turn it on via the override timer, mist enters the chamber through the PVC, is distributed over the trays very slowly via the PVC tubes, and raising the humidity. When the ultrasonic is off and at all times really, a tiny trickle of outside air enters through the PVC via a fan that is taped on the humidifier's air input vent. So when the humidifier turns off the humidity in the chamber settles down very very slowly.
- Internal air circulation--which is the circulatory system of the chamber--is provided via two adjustable USB clip fans. And--I just added this--two more PC fans on the top shelves blowing up. So I have like four fans in there, but they are all running silently (lower voltage than their rating). No fan ever has pointed on the cropping surface directly, though, and that is a BIG deal. The fans help move air around the chamber, and I verified that by watching the ultrasonic mist move along. My belief is that the internal air circulation promotes air from the outside in via the cracks around the furniture covering, etc. but if you point any fan directly on a casing, you will ruin your yield in a hurry because even at 99% RH that would dry out your casing. If your casing is drying out in a couple days and there is not a flush coming in a day or so to explain it, something is wrong in your chamber. The only time a casing might dry out a little is before or after a heavy flush; otherwise, it should be keeping its moisture pretty well (although a TINY bit of evaporation off the casing is a good thing)
- Now this is a total luxury, but I run two dimmable Toggled brand full-spectrum 5K ("sun light") 4-foor T8 tubes on a dimmer (see https://www.homedepot.com/p/toggled-48-in-16-Watt-Daylight-Deluxe-T8-Dimmable-Linear-LED-Tube-Light-Bulb-2-Pack-D416-65321-2/308086234 ). The bulbs even have built-in reflectors and will last a lifetime. They are water resistant too, although I did cover the ending prongs that I soldered to with epoxy putty just so no one touches it doesn't short out on the shelves or something like that. Usually the dimmer is turned at least haf down, but even when it is not, the tubes do not release enough heat to overheat the chamber. I like to turn them up for pictures.
- Speaking of electrocution, I actually have live wires sitting outside the chamber because I never boxed the light dimmer, so I take the fact that this unit is powered by a GFCI seriously, and you should too. Get one of these https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Wall-Adapter-GFCI-04-00106 ; So $14 to potentially save your life? Doesn't seem like much of a "choice" to me.
- I bought 12 13"x9" Pyrex baking pans for like $4 each at various garage sales and at the thrift store. I reuse them over and over. The shelves can comfortably fit 4 per shelve (so 12 of them). 8 trays happens to be 20 pounds of substrate which I can fit in the AA921 if I want. However I very seldom run that many trays because I have no reason to do so (and it's kind of sad to throw away all of the extra). Two trays is plenty to get a decent biological efficiency computation, and that's my favorite metric of success (not the pretty canopy picture most people prefer over everything else)
Temperature and Humidity Settings The chamber is kept at 78 to 80F at all times. The humidity is around 98 to 100% before pinning with ultrasonic misting hours cycles each four hours (but the ultrasonic output is so super restircted with those pipes that that isn't much water to be honest). So that's a basic run down. After the fruits are about quart height, I drop the relative humidity to about 95-90%.
Well, I hope that wasn't too much explanation for you, but I don't know what else you'd want to know. Just ask if you have questions.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/12/20 04:02 PM)
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McGrimm
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26877285 - 08/12/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- In Peace or Pieces we shall move forward. Grimm
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funchky
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: McGrimm]
#26877895 - 08/13/20 05:16 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are an inspiration BH. Thank you for taking the time to put together the detail on your fruiting set up. I'm going to redesign my Martha with some of this in mind. I think excessive airflow drawing downward caused the last 2 total failures. Not to knock other teks because it obviously works brilliantly for some but I just couldn't get it dialed in right. Casing stayed moist but the subs were turning blue on the sides. No fruits at all. And thank you for the recommendation on Stamet's book. I've already ready through a good portion of it.
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: funchky]
#26878579 - 08/13/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey so I have a question in the log it sounded like you said you had used multispore LC, and by that I’m just assuming you meant multicultural LC or multiple sectors and if so I’m just curious how you usually go about making the multi cultural LC. Like do you just find several good sectors and put them all together on a plate before transferring to LC?
--------------------
 To spend just one moment in eternity
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Blue Helix
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Quote:
Celestialexplorer1 said: Hey so I have a question in the log it sounded like you said you had used multispore LC, and by that I’m just assuming you meant multicultural LC or multiple sectors and if so I’m just curious how you usually go about making the multi cultural LC. Like do you just find several good sectors and put them all together on a plate before transferring to LC?
I usually put some spores on an agar surface and sector the margin. I do not sector down further because no one has demonstrated to me the usefulness of doing that. jcm4620 tried with a slightly more aggressive version of the cambos, but I didn't find it performed any better in the long run. He'd say that is because he took prints of ones that were already strong, and maybe he's right. However, until just 5 years ago, I never had a problem with multispore ALL THE TIME. I've been doing multispore since day one, and I will switch once someone can demonstrate to me a higher biological efficiency can be attained via a clone. No one has taken me up on that challenge yet, though.
Likewise, I don't even believe that a mutispore will perpetuate a bad sector provided you didn't go past T1 or maybe T2. In other words, the bad sectors are a result of doing agar work. As soon as you do that, you start to mess up the naturally strong genes of the species. There is an idea floating around that because of the agar stuff, we've domesticated pan cyans to be weak. The obvious question is, then, why would you bother if multispore is so strong and you are messing up the species?
I should note that my views are only my own. The popular notion of growing pan cyan and cambo involves sectoring to about T4 and then growing over and over until you get one as strong as a multispore. In other words, the popular notion is that all growers should be waist deep in agar plates and spend most of their time growing on agar, not in substrates. I guess it's just a different approach. I like harvesting better, and others strongly prefer looking at agar plates. There is nothing wrong with either thing in my mind.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/13/20 07:11 PM)
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26879074 - 08/13/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks for your response yesterday bh
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coAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26879090 - 08/13/20 06:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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You still haven't told us about your $12 stirrer, mister...
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26879102 - 08/13/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
coAsTal said: You still haven't told us about your $12 stirrer, mister...

I guess it's more like $20 unless you want a "quick stirring one." I can make a quick stirring one (1000 RPM) with a PC fan, two magnets, and a small 9V DC power supply for less than $10. The problem is that I don't think that is a very good one, so I don't want to explain it to you.
Now if you want a $20 awesome one that will last you a lifetime and actually stirs at the right speed, then I made a new thread:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26877787
Of course, source your power supply on eBay for $2 (saves you $5 over the exact same one through Amazon). And you can find two powerful magnets on eBay for less than 50 cents I'm sure.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/13/20 07:18 PM)
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26879261 - 08/13/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I actually happen to have all the materials for this stirrer and to make it battery powered for two aaa batteries. Gonna whip one up one day soon
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Celestialexplorer1



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Thank you for that answer as well. Just with that answer( which I have been suspecting is true for a long long time but never actually heard anyone say it) I’m going to start doing the same thing from now on.
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A.k.a
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I totally agree with you on isolating. I use mostly t1 or t2 for everything.
The more you isolate the more extreme your results should be which can go either way.
I ran a PE clone a while back where I used a wedge from the tissue plate and then one from a t3 and the difference was huge. The tissue plate grew like an ms grow while the t3 was wall to wall similar shrooms.
In this case the t3 was much better but I’ve also had it go the other way where I was keeping shitty genes.
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Edited by A.k.a (08/14/20 07:17 AM)
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gt40
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26879749 - 08/14/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Blue Helix is it safe to use such a powerful ozonizer if you have wedges & jars with live cultures in adjoining closed room?
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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26879750 - 08/14/20 08:37 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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yup thats exactly why i put that in my write up also. cuz if ur just sitting there playin with agar eventually your just gnna be transfering away from what u may want. i strictly am only trying to get a clean strong culture to get on my grain as fast as possible. i never go past t2 or t3 from a spore plate. just cuz it looks pretty and evenly round dont mean shit. im after clones anyway so i want a nice wide range of genetics to choose from. now once i get a clone il transfer it down and try to get the very best out of it that i can but thats something completely different.
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26879778 - 08/14/20 09:05 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I already did it to a degree but I’ve always taken the smallest transfers of the best looking sectors to about t2 or 3 which basically lead to isolation or close to it with how small my transfers are. Example
this is a T2 I let the T1 grow out a bit before transfer though
 This is a T3 Both are cubes But you see how quick near isolation can be sometimes. Also it seems like the germination rate for spores might be a little lower with pans as apposed to cubes. So isolation inevitably would be faster as well.
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Edited by Celestialexplorer1 (08/14/20 09:08 AM)
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: gt40]
#26880210 - 08/14/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
gt40 said: Blue Helix is it safe to use such a powerful ozonizer if you have wedges & jars with live cultures in adjoining closed room?
I always have the windows open and run the HEPA in the room which has a carbon that neutralizes ozone fast. I only ozone the chamber empty, but no, if the ozone touched the bags, plates, or spores, it would kill them. You can smell it very strongly (well before it's toxic), so I just make sure I don't gas myself and everyone else in the place... lol It all dissipates pretty fast.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26880224 - 08/14/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: yup thats exactly why i put that in my write up also. cuz if ur just sitting there playin with agar eventually your just gnna be transfering away from what u may want. i strictly am only trying to get a clean strong culture to get on my grain as fast as possible. i never go past t2 or t3 from a spore plate. just cuz it looks pretty and evenly round dont mean shit. im after clones anyway so i want a nice wide range of genetics to choose from. now once i get a clone il transfer it down and try to get the very best out of it that i can but thats something completely different.
Once you get that culture, you stick with it I bet. If I have a good run, I always keep the LC vacutainer for the same reason. It can take awhile to get a decent run, and when you do, you want to make sure you have a way back to it. I just like getting away from spores ASAP with this stuff.
I hate sounding like this old cranky man, but it does seem that back in the day, there weren't so many problems. Or maybe I just didn't grow as much as my memory thinks. Whatever it was, seems that MS used to work better, or my memory works worse (probably the latter).
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26880421 - 08/14/20 04:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The only truly successful pan grow I’ve had where I actually had a good flush was my first grow and surprisingly the only multispore grow I did of pans ever.
 Nothing special by any means but hey I can’t say it was a failure either. This was multispore to grain to coir/Verm with 10% manure. The substrate was meant for cubes and used accidentally because it was my first pan grow and I simply grabbed the wrong bag. But it worked.
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Celestialexplorer1



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Ever since then I’ve moved everything to agar and have been having a lot of trouble even getting a flush in most cases but I think there was a lot of other things in play, other kinks I’ve been working out
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Asura
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My grow didn't go as well as you guys, but I am not disappointed at all. I think these are about the easiest pan I have ever grown and I am sure I could get better runs out of these.
  
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Wall.E
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26884538 - 08/17/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Still a pretty tray. Love the caps of those guys
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26884550 - 08/17/20 09:44 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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These are the cambo jam right??
I wonder why mine had such different caps. I guess it’s a pheno thing but i haven’t seen it anywhere else. Mine were much smaller and flatter than normal.
 
They never got that half circle domed look.
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26884558 - 08/17/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I never would have known these were cambo if I hadn't seen the grows here and started with a culture. Looks like cyans to me. The only clue is the caps and stipe are a little thicker.
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26884565 - 08/17/20 09:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah the cambo stems were much thicker than the wild coast. Those are the only two I’ve done so far but the wild coast had stems like hairs on some of them, lol trying to clone from the stem would be so frustrating.
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26884753 - 08/17/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Blue, here's the tray with 1% ProMycel Gold. No where near a canopy, but wow, there are some huge fruits in this tray. And there are spots where they just packed dense.

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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26884798 - 08/17/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: I never would have known these were cambo if I hadn't seen the grows here and started with a culture. Looks like cyans to me. The only clue is the caps and stipe are a little thicker.
ya i get fruits that look more like cyans and then in the same tray there will b fruits that say cambo all day
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26885589 - 08/17/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Blue, here's the tray with 1% ProMycel Gold. No where near a canopy, but wow, there are some huge fruits in this tray. And there are spots where they just packed dense.
 
Those look more pan cyan like than mine did, except they are still too large for pan cyan. I have noted that these tend to grow in small clumps more often, for me especially in the second flush. This is a picture the first time I grew pan cambos, and back then I noted the usually large size of caps relative to pan cyan as well as their tendency to pin even once I threw the trays out (in the trash). Their strong tendency to flush no matter what happens is why I've said they are a good stepping stone for a grower to something little harder than cubensis. They aren't as difficult to grow as pan cyans but definitely harder than cubes.

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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26885617 - 08/17/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
A.k.a said: These are the cambo jam right??
I wonder why mine had such different caps. I guess it’s a pheno thing but i haven’t seen it anywhere else. Mine were much smaller and flatter than normal.
 
They never got that half circle domed look.
but aka u gtta also understand they are growing from my actual culture all given off site of coarse to where u were growin from a print from the culture
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gt40
I will proof smthng



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26885959 - 08/18/20 01:37 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Asura said: Blue, here's the tray with 1% ProMycel Gold. No where near a canopy, but wow, there are some huge fruits in this tray. And there are spots where they just packed dense.
 
Those look more pan cyan like than mine did, except they are still too large for pan cyan. I have noted that these tend to grow in small clumps more often, for me especially in the second flush. This is a picture the first time I grew pan cambos, and back then I noted the usually large size of caps relative to pan cyan as well as their tendency to pin even once I threw the trays out (in the trash). Their strong tendency to flush no matter what happens is why I've said they are a good stepping stone for a grower to something little harder than cubensis. They aren't as difficult to grow as pan cyans but definitely harder than cubes.
 
reminds me of these guys back to the days

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jcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26885994 - 08/18/20 03:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: Blue, here's the tray with 1% ProMycel Gold. No where near a canopy, but wow, there are some huge fruits in this tray. And there are spots where they just packed dense.
 
i can def see the resemblence tho. but those r def fatter
Edited by jcm4620 (08/18/20 03:10 AM)
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26886377 - 08/18/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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The pic doesn't really do reality justice. Some of my prints are half dollar sized. Wish I could get a whole tray of nothing but beef like that!
The total on that tray so far is just 160g - just 40% BE so far.
Second flush is going now.
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26886584 - 08/18/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Where might one acquire said promycel
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jcm4620
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personally il argue that it wasnt the promycel i had the exact opposite results my trsy was not nearly as full of fruits as the one without it and it also took a lot longer to pin so id say if anything id have to try it again and see what happens. il argue that those fruits got as huge as they did more from the bottom watering than the promycel. cuz prior to the bottom watering and also jacking up that fae if u did that like i suggested aslo cuz b4 all that that tray looked nothing like that cuz those things look fuckin beautiful but i think its at least worth exploring further with the promycel
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26886769 - 08/18/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was thinking of using it for gourmet. Or at least seeing how It differs.
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Blue Helix
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Quote:
Celestialexplorer1 said: I was thinking of using it for gourmet. Or at least seeing how It differs.
It's not designed for these mushrooms really. It's designed for traditional compost-based mushrooms like buttons. These manure-based ones (or some people use grains I guess), probably aren't helped by this much. In fact the additional nutrients might be harmful to colonization; it's a myth that the more nutrients the better, an amateur assumption.
I am using it in the substrate prior to pressure cooking. That is not the way it was intended to be used either. It was intended to be used in the substrate prior to the tray lay consolidation period or at spawning. If you are using it outside of that or in your casing, you are using it a way it was not intended (as I am doing prior to pressure cooking).
The stuff is made by a company in northern California (close to the San Jose area) named Amycel. The ProMycel Gold is the most expensive spawn amendment they sell, but It runs only $27 for a 50-pound bag (less if you buy 20 baags), super cheap because the target customer is a commercial grower, not a hobbyist that grows microscopic grows like here.
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Phony Phone

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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#27055843 - 11/24/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hi Helix, the molded trays, did you harvest then toss or did you just toss altogether? Seems kinda stupid to ask, but do you just put them as is in garbage bags and toss the substrates or break it up, bury it etc.
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Celestialexplorer1



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Phony Phone]
#27055976 - 11/24/20 06:31 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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I always burry my pan sub and only twice have seen them fruit outdoors but the slugs got them before they matured.
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Blue Helix
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Phony Phone]
#27056419 - 11/24/20 11:35 PM (3 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phony Phone said: Hi Helix, the molded trays, did you harvest then toss or did you just toss altogether? Seems kinda stupid to ask, but do you just put them as is in garbage bags and toss the substrates or break it up, bury it etc.

The harvest was a total loss at 100% BE. I am just abandoning this whole log. I cannot believe how poor the yield was! I'm doing another test of the high-grain substrate and seeing where it leads me. Keep an eye out! My hope is to bridge a kind of hybrid between the monotub abuse tech and the normal cube tech.
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gt40
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#27169400 - 01/25/21 03:55 PM (3 years, 2 days ago) |
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Blue Helix I know your sterilize big bags for 5h. What is your time advice for two small bags /~1.3 pounds each/ with same mix proportions? I guess 2-2.5h will be enough
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Asura
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: gt40]
#27169526 - 01/25/21 05:16 PM (3 years, 2 days ago) |
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In case he doesn't see this...he'll probably tell you 4 hours. That's how long I do mine.
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Phony Phone

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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#27169847 - 01/25/21 08:10 PM (3 years, 2 days ago) |
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asura u fill your PC with 5 quarts of water but how many quarts is your PC?
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Asura
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23 quart Presto
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gt40
I will proof smthng



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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#27170124 - 01/26/21 12:59 AM (3 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said: In case he doesn't see this...he'll probably tell you 4 hours. That's how long I do mine.
I remember his post with estimated time periods for different volumes regards to proportion of grain with manure & verm. Just can't find it nowhere. But it's okay, the whole idea is pretty clear
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savan73
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report *DELETED* [Re: Blue Helix]
#27478530 - 09/22/21 05:15 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by savan73
Reason for deletion: .
Edited by savan73 (09/22/21 05:16 PM)
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A.k.a
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: savan73]
#27478535 - 09/22/21 05:18 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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PE is just like any other cube cultivation wise.
Pans have a MUCH different trip than cubes do, that’s the main draw.
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tregar
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#28439454 - 08/19/23 03:31 PM (5 months, 6 days ago) |
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Bump up to one of the original pan cyan masters, Blue Helix, R.I.P. You will be sorely missed. I learned so much from yourself and Asura and many kind other pan cyan Shamanic masters here (mentioned in link below).
Compilation of pan cyan trip reports: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28108398
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