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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report *DELETED* [Re: Asura]
    #26868905 - 08/07/20 06:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

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Reason for deletion: off topic


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
    #26868907 - 08/07/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: mushboy]
    #26872266 - 08/09/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Deleted because information was found to be incorrect after notes review.


Edited by Blue Helix (08/11/20 02:54 AM)


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Offlinejcm4620
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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
    #26872312 - 08/09/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side




and here u can see my casings dont overlay. il get myc that just comes up thru the small gaps in the casing but thats it.  heres just a few pics showing the begining pinning stages that u can see i dont have overlay. just knots and pins




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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872458 - 08/09/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jcm4620 said:
my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side





And that would make sense to me except you see your mycelium ripping through the substrate.  Why, then, does it magically stop in 24 hours?  That's the part I don't get.  Now if it was colonizing the substrate normally over say 4 days or something, then I could understand it.  But I've seen your trays after 24 hours and it wasn't like anyone else on the Shroomery.  I don't mean it's uncommon.  I mean it doesn't exist except for you.  Now if it is growing that unhealthfully fast, then why would it stop?  Here are my theories:

1) Your casing's pH is out of whack and the mycelium just recoils when it touches it because it gets burned.

2) Your fruiting chamber is around 95% RH, so when the myceium touches the surface, it dies or recoils back into the moisture of the casing

So far that's all I have to explain this unique experience you have with it.  What I'd really like is if some people with calibrated hygrometers could explain how their mycelium is triggered to stop in a 100% RH chamber.  Unfortunately, even Asura, who is testing this, uses lower relative humidities for pinning.  My humdity of 100% RH really goes back to WayLitJim in mycotopia where he said he didn't just use 100% RH but a fog-like environment.  That's what I've been doing too, but it's not working for this.

So I'm doing a microgrow and will drop the humidity down to 95% which is about where most people keep it and see if the mycelium overlays.  I also will increase the airflow over the surface.  My guess it's some combination of those two that explains why you keep having so much evaporation off your casing and the mycelium cannot grow on the surface.  That's all I can come up with.


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872468 - 08/09/20 10:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jcm4620 said:
my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side





By the way, jcm4620, I take this as a personal challenge.  I've never seen something like this to be honest.  I've seen overlay, but this is extreme.  And yours doesn't have it.  That means somewhere there are some serious differences.  I thought it was the substrate, but that didn't work. It must be something else


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872501 - 08/09/20 10:43 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jcm4620 said:
my casings never overlay on me as i keep them on the wet side over the first few days. i will give a very good misting when i place into my fc and then il let that evap a lil bit and then il give it another good misting and thats usually all i have to do. i will just keep the casing on the wet side til i start to see my first knots/pins at that point il stop all misting all together. now when i say wet in not talking fucking puddles n shit just enough to where u can look at it and see its wet is all. i have many pictures that show how wet im talking here. i know its hard to tell cuz these are not good pics im just showing my casing and how you can tell that its just on the wet side





I thought of one other possibility just now: what if the calcium carbonate source I have happens to have nitrogen or phosphorus contamination?  That would make the casing seem too nutritious.  That seems like a long shot, but I am using a fairly new calcium carbonate source.  I think I'll go back to oyster shells the next run and rinse it to be double sure.


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
    #26872510 - 08/09/20 11:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

my pan jam cyan tray had bad overlay. I cased w jiffy though, which includes some coir


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26872649 - 08/10/20 02:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

lol for the 50th time man when i say ripping thru im just using an expression lol its just fucking slang man it dont mean a god damn thing lol . im just saying that it is moving nice and easy thru the bulk substrate bags at a fast pace is all not the casing. it means nothing its simply just a means of expressing how nice and fast its colonizing the bulk thats it. its not some kind of after effect left on the sub its just an expeession of fast colonization of the bulk substrate not nothing to do with the casing👍😃


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Edited by jcm4620 (08/10/20 05:38 AM)


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872653 - 08/10/20 02:59 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

and again the only thing im doing different is how wet i keep my casings up to the point of knots/pins. i mist very heavy when placing to fruit and then il bring it back to that level again in a day or so when it has shown good evaporation. again im not talking puddles wet. that is the biggest difference here i believe.

again no overlay. here these are the pan cyan peace river clones that im running right now. they also have very aggressive growth prior to casing. here they are 1 day before casing.



and here they are right now on day 6 with pins starting to come up throughout u can kinda see the moisture level of the casing a tad also. you can tell it is wet but you can also see they are not puddle of mud wet



so again zero overlay on my end and i cant explain it other than everyones grow environment is different and shit has to be dialed into the environment its in. all i can do is share what im doing with everyone. it doesnt mean that its gnna work exactly the same everywhere else and vice versa. know what i mean?

and also i only use a cheap 1$ hygrometer from home depot lol just as a reference tool just so i can see how my fc is behaving when my fan cycles on. meaning if i see a drop in humidity or not. thats it i honestly havent even looked at them for the last 4 or 5 grows even. i dont think  for what im fruiting in there is any point for a fancy humidity control. one day when i move and can set up a nice large fc il def have all that shit but again il still only use it as a reference tool. but right now i know my environment is well humid enough just by how my fruits look when i open it up. the humid air in there wil cover the fruits inside with fine tiny beads of moisture and they seem to really love it. they can stay covered in that all day n be just happy as can be but if they were to be misted or have direct water come into contact with them in any way they hate it and will look like shit and bruise. i just go more by what my fruits look like and how they behave over just some set number know what i mean. all them airstones and pumps are running 24/7 so my environment only changes a tad when my fan comes on for a few min every cpl hours. but again i can only share what i am doing it dont mean its a set way or anything. every environments grows will behave differently


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Edited by jcm4620 (08/10/20 05:41 AM)


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872803 - 08/10/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

BH, I wonder if switching to a sand component in your casing-- like coarse playground sand for example-- might help 1)remove excess moisture at the casing/air threshold,  and 2) "channel" shafts of mycelium into individualized growth zones more effectively.

I've been studying Mycolorado's sand additive methods for some Tamp Atl#7 and Galindoi I'm preparing to spawn, and giving a lot of thought to the reason that sand seems to be so useful for those.

Perhaps that better "channeling" or "piping" from the base mycelial network upward to the surface through the granules of sand would be an effective way of helping to control over-matting of the surface?

It always appeared to me that primordia form atop "cracks, dips, and crevices" the mycelium perceives on the surface, which makes sense as it would do the same thing in nature, growing up from between debris on the ground. We make our substrate surfaces very flat, which makes those distinctions more subtle. Maybe adding that little bit of coarse sand/grit to your top layer could do something to trigger that effect for this finicky mycelium better?

Just spitballing-- I know you guys are elite-level growers, but I thought I'd mention the thought since I'm using it on Tamps right now and it came to mind.
:cheers:


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
    #26872867 - 08/10/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
BH, I wonder if switching to a sand component in your casing-- like coarse playground sand for example-- might help 1)remove excess moisture at the casing/air threshold,  and 2) "channel" shafts of mycelium into individualized growth zones more effectively.

I've been studying Mycolorado's sand additive methods for some Tamp Atl#7 and Galindoi I'm preparing to spawn, and giving a lot of thought to the reason that sand seems to be so useful for those.

Perhaps that better "channeling" or "piping" from the base mycelial network upward to the surface through the granules of sand would be an effective way of helping to control over-matting of the surface?

It always appeared to me that primordia form atop "cracks, dips, and crevices" the mycelium perceives on the surface, which makes sense as it would do the same thing in nature, growing up from between debris on the ground. We make our substrate surfaces very flat, which makes those distinctions more subtle. Maybe adding that little bit of coarse sand/grit to your top layer could do something to trigger that effect for this finicky mycelium better?

Just spitballing-- I know you guys are elite-level growers, but I thought I'd mention the thought since I'm using it on Tamps right now and it came to mind.
:cheers:




Yeah, you practically read my mind, but I did add quite a bit of sand the last time.  It was crushed coral calcium-based sand.  So the casing was sandy, but something still wasn't right.  I'm going to assume there is some kind of issue with either humidity or with nitrogen contamination of the casing.  You know it doesn't take very much nitrogen contamination to ruin a casing.  Even just a tiny, tiny bit results in overlay (even a spec the size of a grain of sand of miracle grow would ruin it).  So I'll rinse the casing the next time by letting it soak underwater and flushing the water off.  And I'll knock down the relative humidity to where I think others are which is probably about 95% (I do not believe most people are using 100% RH given these claims it "dried out" by jcm4620--it doesn't dry out if you are at 100% RH--and the toy hygrometers don't tell you much so you best just ignore them entirely).  It has to be one of those two things.  I just don't see what else it could be.

PS - I also bought some food-grade calcium carbonate from Walmart's site that is used for chalk paint (really cheap too at $18 for 10 pounds of it!).  I am about certain that does not have any nitrogen contamination since it wouldn't pass the food-grade then.


Edited by Blue Helix (08/10/20 08:23 AM)


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872883 - 08/10/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jcm4620 said:
and again the only thing im doing different is how wet i keep my casings up to the point of knots/pins. i mist very heavy when placing to fruit and then il bring it back to that level again in a day or so when it has shown good evaporation. again im not talking puddles wet. that is the biggest difference here i believe.

again no overlay. here these are the pan cyan peace river clones that im running right now. they also have very aggressive growth prior to casing. here they are 1 day before casing.



and here they are right now on day 6 with pins starting to come up throughout u can kinda see the moisture level of the casing a tad also. you can tell it is wet but you can also see they are not puddle of mud wet



so again zero overlay on my end and i cant explain it other than everyones grow environment is different and shit has to be dialed into the environment its in. all i can do is share what im doing with everyone. it doesnt mean that its gnna work exactly the same everywhere else and vice versa. know what i mean?

and also i only use a cheap 1$ hygrometer from home depot lol just as a reference tool just so i can see how my fc is behaving when my fan cycles on. meaning if i see a drop in humidity or not. thats it i honestly havent even looked at them for the last 4 or 5 grows even. i dont think  for what im fruiting in there is any point for a fancy humidity control. one day when i move and can set up a nice large fc il def have all that shit but again il still only use it as a reference tool. but right now i know my environment is well humid enough just by how my fruits look when i open it up. the humid air in there wil cover the fruits inside with fine tiny beads of moisture and they seem to really love it. they can stay covered in that all day n be just happy as can be but if they were to be misted or have direct water come into contact with them in any way they hate it and will look like shit and bruise. i just go more by what my fruits look like and how they behave over just some set number know what i mean. all them airstones and pumps are running 24/7 so my environment only changes a tad when my fan comes on for a few min every cpl hours. but again i can only share what i am doing it dont mean its a set way or anything. every environments grows will behave differently




jcm4620, you don't need a fancy hygrometer usually.  I'm trying to figure out what is different, though, so it would help in this unusual case.  The $1 hygrometer does not really tell anyone anything.  It's fine, and it might be all you need.  But it cannot tell me if you are at 95% or 100%.  It just tells you things are kind of wet (over 90% is about all it can really tell you).  I would say the chances of it being the humidity are fairly low in my mind, but since I can just push buttons to check that, I will, and no matter what using 95% with additional misting cycles isn't going to hurt anything.  Again, with the controller, you just adjust the misting cycles as you see fit.  It's no big deal (unlike if you don't have a controller where EVERYTHING is a big deal).

The reason I'm leaning toward is some kind of nitrogen contamination of the calcium carbonate I'm using now (and I don't think the peat or calcium sand are at fault because of where they are sourced and for what purpose.  For example the calcium sand is for reef tanks.  Even a tiny bit of nitrogen contamination is deadly to a reef tank because it prompts algae to form which kills coral).  I recently switched my source of calcium flour, though, and I think I've been seeing this ever since I did.  So just to make sure that's taken care of I'll rinse the casing out in a canvas washing bag and use a known-pure calcium carbonate next time I mix up my casing.  The stuff I'm using comes from hot springs, and I can imagine there could be a tiny bit of nitrogen runoff contamination from that.  I should have been using what I used to use which was oyster shell.  I lost it (just found it cleaning my patio though).  Also I bought some food-grade premium calcium carbonate for chalk paint at Walmart's online store that will be in next week.  I know those two sources are pure because of how they are made, and I'll start to use them again once I rinse what I have this time.  I'd give this a 50% chance of being due to nitrogen contamination at this point.


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
    #26872884 - 08/10/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

when  did i say it dried out??  nothing of mine drys out i dont know what ur talkin about please explain??


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
    #26872887 - 08/10/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

The calcium carbonate I have is food grade as well-- though I admit that I wasn't looking for it to be-- but I just checked after you said that. I only bought a pound, as I'm a very small-scale grower with very limited space for this hobby.
:pipesmoke:

If anyone will be able to fine-tune the process, it's you BH-- jcm has his environment pretty much mastered-- I'm certain you will make it work.
On another topic,  I am going to replicate your primary horse manure sub with (rye) grain once my bags arrive this week-- do you pre-soak that grain at all prior to adding it in for the pasteurization process, or does the slow cook hydrate the grain?


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872891 - 08/10/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

and like i said my toy hygrometwr is only a reference tool it means nothing to me i dont even look at it. it was strictly in there so i could see if i was getting a good drop in humidity when my fan comes on was all i actually took 1 out of 1 fc and il remove the other all together prolly the next time i clean


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872893 - 08/10/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jcm4620 said:
when  did i say it dried out??  nothing of mine drys out i dont know what ur talkin about please explain??




Your said it evaporated.  I'm thinking you might be right.  It might have evaporated.  That would point to humidity, but again, I'm leaning against humidity at this point.  It just doesn't sound right because regardless of what the humidity is, there microclimate humidity is close to 100%, so how could that be it?

I think it's probably chemical contamination.  Someone on here said they were using "Jiffy Soil" and experienced overlay.  Well, of course, they did.  That stuff would totally suck.  Even a tiny bit of fertilizer ruins a casing.  That's why we cannot use soil mixes for some species.  Some do fine with a tiny bit of fertilizer (and will not overlay no matter what you do), but this one is unusually aggressive.  It's doing too much ripping as it is, even without fertilizer.  I need it to slow down, and somewhere the mycelium is not getting the trigger that there is nothing more to eat.  It almost has to be some kind of chemical thing going on I think.

Any other ideas jcm4620?


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
    #26872906 - 08/10/20 08:58 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
The calcium carbonate I have is food grade as well-- though I admit that I wasn't looking for it to be-- but I just checked after you said that. I only bought a pound, as I'm a very small-scale grower with very limited space for this hobby.
:pipesmoke:

If anyone will be able to fine-tune the process, it's you BH-- jcm has his environment pretty much mastered-- I'm certain you will make it work.
On another topic,  I am going to replicate your primary horse manure sub with (rye) grain once my bags arrive this week-- do you pre-soak that grain at all prior to adding it in for the pasteurization process, or does the slow cook hydrate the grain?




Yeah, I figured you were using food-grade CC.  I bet a lot of people are using that or Paul Stamet's recommendation of crushed oyster shells (which is kind of a meal consistency rather than flour).

About rye grain: I had been using millet from a Kaytee blend.  This stuff is an amazing deal too:

https://www.amazon.com/Kaytee-100034040-Supreme-Parakeet-Food/dp/B0002AQN8G

However I like the idea of rye even better.  The problem is that it's very hard to get rye in a state that does not use it for a cover crop, so while most folks in the midwest can pick it up for like $15 for a 50-pound bag at a "feed store", I couldn't (incidentally, it's not actually used for feed very often; it's a cover crop that is opened for grazing and a small amount of it is used as an actual crop).  I found a weird way around the problem using a co-opt named Azure Standard, though:

https://www.azurestandard.com/

So I just got 50-pounds of rye for $30 or so, and split it up into vacuum-sealed (with oxygen absorber) FoodSaver bags--about 5-pounds each--so it can last many years.

I think rye probably works better than WBS, but I must admit that I've not tried to fruit on it yet.  I say that simply because I think the larger grains probably dole out the goodies more slowly.  And I think rye is less likely to contaminate too if there is a bit of stray mold in the substrate.  Lastly, jcm4620 has shown it definitely supports great growth since he uses a tremendous amount as a spawn grain (1/3rd of his substrate's volume no less!!!).

I do not believe it matters if you presoak either WBS or rye before adding it to the final fruit-out substrate destined for the pressure cooker.  In either case, you have to take into consideration the water content will eventually become 50% as always with grains.  So if you add say 10oz of grain (rye or WBS) you always add 10oz of extra water (my formula takes all that into account).  Likewise, if you add it presoaked and drained to my fruting substrate, you need to remove 10oz of water.

If you are making grain spawn, that's totally different because you don't want the grain starches hanging around the surface of spawn.  It will increase the chances of contamination if you do that and can make the grains stick a lot worse.  So always soak and rinse well for spawn prep (I think RogerRabbit has some tek), but for final fruit-out substrate, it's optional.


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
    #26872909 - 08/10/20 09:03 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks so much for the knowledge-- I am blessed to have you guys on tap for advice :hug::yourock:


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Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
    #26872915 - 08/10/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

jcm4620 said:
lol for the 50th time man when i say ripping thru im just using an expression lol its just fucking slang man it dont mean a god damn thing lol . im just saying that it is moving nice and easy thru the bulk substrate bags at a fast pace is all not the casing. it means nothing its simply just a means of expressing how nice and fast its colonizing the bulk thats it. its not some kind of after effect left on the sub its just an expeession of fast colonization of the bulk substrate not nothing to do with the casing👍😃




jcm4620, I have a confession: I'm kind of jerking your chain with this.  Sorry I have a sick sense of humor I guess because each time you'd protest on me getting upset about it "ripping through" I was laughing over here.  I knew what you meant, but the truth is that because it is such an aggressive colonizer, it becomes even more important that you don't have any stray contamination in the casing soil.  Obviously, though, the idea of aggressive growth is a good thing usually.  It's why I got 320% BE too.  Now I just need to figure out why my trays aren't getting the memo about stopping colonization...


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