|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26855163 - 07/31/20 09:32 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
also just an update for yall. all the giveaway prints from this grow are now spoken for and everything will be put together this weekend and they will all be mailed out monday morning on my way to work.๐ so be sure to post pics of them growing in the official pan thread and also in my write up thread linked in my signature. thanks again to B.H and everyone else.
happy growing JCM๐๐๐๐
Edited by jcm4620 (07/31/20 09:34 AM)
|
Camera93
We got dicks like Jesus



Registered: 08/15/18
Posts: 3,220
Last seen: 10 days, 10 hours
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Reportf we eerrr we're jjh he [Re: jcm4620]
#26855167 - 07/31/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jcm4620 said: also just an update for yall. all the giveaway prints from this grow are now spoken for and everything will be put together this weekend and they will all be mailed out monday morning on my way to work.๐ so be sure to post pics of them growing in the official pan thread and also in my write up thread linked in my signature. thanks again to B.H and everyone else.
happy growing JCM๐๐๐๐

good lookin out for everyone man
-------------------- All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and Iโm fine. Whatever you decide wonโt really impact our survival Close your eyes, and do the best that you can
|
coAsTal
Friend


Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 2,970
Loc: 8a
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26855275 - 07/31/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
|
c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26855637 - 07/31/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Sure, here are some pics from various stages. First real pan grow, i have a long way to go. Been getting extremely unlucky on my cultures
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" โ Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o] 2
#26855875 - 07/31/20 05:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
c10, that looks great for a first grow to me. I've had some bad luck this year as well. I am thinking I should just stick to winter growing ...which seems counter-intuitive for a tropical species.
As for my jams...they are definitely cyans and came from mary's last grow.
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura] 1
#26855921 - 07/31/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
c10 those look great man im glad to see ur gttn the hang of them and the fc seems to be workin out for ya๐ once you get yourself some killer ass genetics its panopy city๐คฉ๐คฉ then slant them bitches and grow a canopy of pans whenever u want. it looks like u have the exact trays i use also๐๐i love them things. i use to use those black ones but switched to the heavy duty white ones cuz i can re use them and they wash out easier but they are the same size. are u also using the dome that comes with them for your tray colonization/recovery?? thats what i do cuz its nice to be able to see in it. i secure the domes on with binder clips like so.
but they look great c10 i only gtta ask 1 question why aint those beauties posted in my fc write up and also in the pan thread? they look fantastic man post dem bitches๐ค great job man๐
|
c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26856055 - 07/31/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah thats what i do too, really handy
Thanks for all yalls help 
I think those were in both of those threads, those were from my first harvest, those tiny ass pan bisp pics i sent you are from the more recent ones
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" โ Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 2
#26856541 - 08/01/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jcm4620 said: c10 those look great man im glad to see ur gttn the hang of them and the fc seems to be workin out for ya๐ once you get yourself some killer ass genetics its panopy city๐คฉ๐คฉ then slant them bitches and grow a canopy of pans whenever u want. it looks like u have the exact trays i use also๐๐i love them things. i use to use those black ones but switched to the heavy duty white ones cuz i can re use them and they wash out easier but they are the same size. are u also using the dome that comes with them for your tray colonization/recovery?? thats what i do cuz its nice to be able to see in it. i secure the domes on with binder clips like so.
but they look great c10 i only gtta ask 1 question why aint those beauties posted in my fc write up and also in the pan thread? they look fantastic man post dem bitches๐ค great job man๐
They really are great genetics. I finally understand why, jcm4620, you had the same flush density (or even more I think) but half the yield. It's a matter of the fact I had twice the surface area because manure is half the density of the grain-based substrate. To compensate for more dense substrates with more nutrients you are supposed to use a shallower tray like they talk about in the growing guides.
I'm using 1" depth substrate given it's grain-based sub this time. Even that might be too much to achieve a a yield comparable to the manure-based sub. I recall never going over an inch with grain like that, and you must always consider density when computing the substrate depth. For example, heavy straw substrates might need to be 3" deep for pan cyans. Like I said, manure is about 2X to 2.5X more voluminous, so you get about twice the depth for the same surface area. At 1" I'm getting about 75% of the surface area of my usual 2" manure-based substrate. I think with the shallow substrate I should be able to get close to the manure-based yield,though, simply because the nutrients are 2X as dense so a 2" bed is a waste. I'll report back soon the result.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/01/20 10:45 PM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 3
#26859478 - 08/02/20 06:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I want to thank Alan Rockafeller for his excellent microscopy work and teaching me while doing it. I'm thinking of getting a new scope, and he showed me a lot about what I'd need to really key in what species some of these little mushrooms we are all calling pan cyans (often incorrectly) are. The spores for this species were sold at Jamacian Panaeolus cyanescens (pan cyan). Using the scope this was plainly wrong (no doubt about that being wrong too). Although we ran out of time for the final analysis, Alan narrowed these mushrooms down to almost certainly panaeolus cambodginiensis (cambos). That was easy for me to believe because of how they grew (insane yields, high water content, slightly less potent than pan cyans, etc.)
Although spore size was only one step in the identification process, the spores sizes alone discounted the possibility of pan cyans. Below are two slides showing spores, maybe basidia (not clear here) The basidia of these were mostly 4-spored structures with a couple 2-spored ones. The spores develop on these and are ejected off them. Basidia were the hardest thing for my untrained eye to identify, and to see all four arms you really need to work the fine focus adjust. You also can easily see cystidia (sac-like things) in the picture on the right. I don't know what cystidia do but they really help identification since the key references stuff like wall thickness and even the color of them.
So below are two slides that Alan used software to analyze.- Size range : (11.1) 11.2 - 13.3 (14) ร (8) 8.8 - 10.5 (11.1) ยตm
- Variance: Q = (1.1) 1.2 - 1.4 (1.5)
- Number of spores analyzed: N = 30
- Mean size: Me = 12.4 ร 9.7 ยตm
- Mean aspect ratio: Qe = 1.3ย

Edited by Blue Helix (08/02/20 07:13 PM)
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26859526 - 08/02/20 06:55 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
thats awsum man its so nice to finally know๐ thank you guys๐๐ we def gtta give jake a thanks also since hes the one that first brought this issue to light quite a while back. he and alan even did the pcr on them but they have not all been sent in yet but we can pretty much bet the bank on it now thank u blue.alan and jake for taking your time and putting in the effort to ensure correct identification. you guys are all awsum๐ค๐ค i also would like to start getting into this side of the hobby as well as it seems very interesting i may get a scope myself here in the near future
|
c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26859573 - 08/02/20 07:17 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah thanks guys yall rock
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" โ Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Puduwoke
mushroom enthusiastic

Registered: 06/25/17
Posts: 1,666
Last seen: 1 day, 8 hours
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: c10h12n2o]
#26864658 - 08/05/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
from Sweden aswell! Amazing what so many people on here do for each other, others and the community. So proud to be able to be apart of this and the pan-movment!
I'm sure BH would be thrilled to have this engagement back in the day about pans.
--------------------
Trade List LAGM2021
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Puduwoke] 2
#26864866 - 08/05/20 03:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Puduwoke said:
from Sweden aswell! Amazing what so many people on here do for each other, others and the community. So proud to be able to be apart of this and the pan-movment!
I'm sure BH would be thrilled to have this engagement back in the day about pans.
Yes, things sure have changed, Puduwoke! It's a refreshing change too. I think the cat is out of the bag: pan cyans and related smaller mushrooms aren't too hard to grow and yield far beyond what cubes can not just in terms of magic but even in terms of raw yield now with cambos! If you look at my cubensis-equivalent BE on pans (assuming the fruits are a full 10% solid like cubes are), I computed 171%! Bear in mind that is a substantially higher yield of a mushroom that is a MINIMUM of 2X as potent as cubensis on a per-gram basis! And some, like jcm4620, argue they are every bit as potent and pan cyans even, which are about 4X as potent as cubensis! Either way you are getting at least 3X the magic from a species that is very hardy. I'd put these cambos at almost as easy to grow as cubensis even! I haven't added this to this grow low yet, but let me try to illustrate how hardy these cambos are.
So I decided to grow using jcm4620's grain-rich substrate formula. He makes his fruit-out substrate that way by adding an incredibly high amount of rye spawn, making his grows basically mostly on grain, not manure. He uses (per volume) 1 part spawn to 2 parts manure/straw whereas my normal formula is a 1:6.5 ratio (per volume or 1:4 per dry weight). His substrate is literally twice as dense and really has less water carrying capacity of the traditional substrate, but even though it might not yield too well, I wanted to see what it can do to increase potency (if anything). Because it is so dense, I laid it at 1" of depth (half my normal depth) to get a decent amount of surface area (and so raise yield).
Anyway, I saw overlay again on day 3 (yesterday) for some weird reason (he never sees overlay but I do). I decided to do a very harsh technique of solving it that I used to do with cubenesis all the time to improve the pin set called "light scratching" where you take a fork and gently break up and disrupt the top layer of the casing, including breaking up any overlay if present. Now with pan cyans, that would kill the mushrooms and ruin the run, but with these cambos they bounced back within 24 hours just like cubensis does!!! And you know what that means - a tray packed with an even pin set is on its way because that is what scratching does (if the mushroom survives it I mean)! So a technique that only cubensis can usually survive that greatly increases yield seems to be working for these little cambos!!! Imagine that! That fact completely changes how I'd recommend growing them now because I've said for years that if you can scratch a run like that and the mushroom survives, you should usually do so. I'll post about this her once the first flush is harvested and my yield proves my point, but I'm excited!
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 1
#26864965 - 08/05/20 04:30 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
i personally never bought into the scratch it with a fork stuff tho. but if it works for ya then go for it also cubes dont really overlay tho so if ur scratching them its prolly cuz it became matted but the way you obtain a nice even and dense pinset is to have good surface conditions and good evaporation of the surface and replacing the surface conditions after evaporation. i mean i know we all can agree on this general basic information.
one thing nobody can ever agree on is potency. thats why i dont even really care to argue it with anyone. potency is mostly an opinion based on the experience one has and not by actual measured active compounds. too many different factors come into play with potency such as genetics,substrate grown on,environment grown in and the thing i think makes the biggest difference and that is fruit size. we all know that say 2 dry grams of smaller average sized fruits will be substantially more potent than 2 dry grams from fewer larger fruits. i have grown and dosed on cyans, cambos and bisporus and i could not tell the difference not 1 bit between any of them. so i think if potency is gnna be debated at all it really cant be by anything other than the percentage of active compounds that is known to be produced on average at the species/sub species level. anything other than that is really just a matter of personal opinion and really has no evidence behind it. other than by what the species is known to produce on an average basis there is no way to even measure it.
also just to add what i actually use as a substate i use a 60% chopped wheat straw and 40% shredded horse manure substrate. now i was using a 1.2 grain spawn to sub ratio. each one of my trays holds exactly 6 total qts minus the casing. so every tray contained 2 qts of colonized rye berries. keep in mind the qt jars are not all the way full so its really more like 1 3/4 qts of spawn to 4 full qts of sub. but by the amounts others use that is very high its just under a 1/3 grain. but i have had no issue with this ratio. now the grow i currently have going im actually using a 1.5 ratio and so far i have not noticed 1 bit of difference. the real result tho will be the way the fruiting and the yield goes. but if i can get by with 1/2 the amount of grain il be all over that shit and then il even be exploring that further and seeing just how far down i can go with it. and from what i see others using that is totally do able. but pans can grow just as well with that amount of grain and i know others have used similar ratios and had good results also. but if i can get by with less that will be great. im really exited to try this with the current grow i have going and il be sure to share my reaults in the pan thread and in my journal. but when i started growing pans i was using a 1.4 ratio but upped it when i wasnt getting what i wanted out of it. then wnen i started getting better results i just stuck with that ratio. but honestly im thinking that the 1.4 ratio was just fine from the start and that it was just me not really knowing what to do and look for with them. i was just kinda winging it and going with the flow. but now that i have learned a lot more about the species and know what to look for and what to do in givin situations i think ima be just fine n dandy at the lower ratio๐๐
Edited by jcm4620 (08/05/20 04:32 PM)
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620]
#26864982 - 08/05/20 04:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Hey BH, when you scratched did it bruise? It's always been a bad sign for the grow (for me at least) if the overlay starts to bruise. I've tried the scratching method with cyans before and the overlay just always grew back...but only if there was no bruising. When bruising occurred, the grow just sort of stalled out.
|
coAsTal
Friend


Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 2,970
Loc: 8a
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26865034 - 08/05/20 05:02 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Blue Helix said: Yes, things sure have changed, Puduwoke! It's a refreshing change too. I think the cat is out of the bag: pan cyans and related smaller mushrooms aren't too hard to grow and yield far beyond what cubes can not just in terms of magic but even in terms of raw yield now with cambos! If you look at my cubensis-equivalent BE on pans (assuming the fruits are a full 10% solid like cubes are), I computed 171%! Bear in mind that is a substantially higher yield of a mushroom that is a MINIMUM of 2X as potent as cubensis on a per-gram basis! And some, like jcm4620, argue they are every bit as potent and pan cyans even, which are about 4X as potent as cubensis! Either way you are getting at least 3X the magic from a species that is very hardy. I'd put these cambos at almost as easy to grow as cubensis even!
I remember reading long ago that some of the interviewed shamans in Mexico told American and European scholars back in the 50's or 60's that they considered cubensis to be the very bottom rung of the hierarchy of visionary mushrooms. The Caeru's, Zap's, Semperviva, and Mexicana mushrooms were always rated at the top. One suspects that Pans would have been included firmly high on that list if they had grown in the places these interviewed shamans had practiced.
I tend to agree with jcm that chemically there's very little functionally different between Psilocybes of all types, as it's almost always Psilocybin/Psilocin in the end... so as you said very well-- what cultivators SHOULD be doing is looking for the highest strength per gram possible, because the higher the potency, the less one needs to attain the chosen strength of their experience. Also, with cubes SO much energy is being used to produce the thick mushroom material that makes cubes so strong physically--as in resistant to harsh environmental conditions. That energy does not usually translate into high alk content-- so why pick them when more delicate but high-alk Pans or Mex could give you way more bang with just 1 to 2 grams per session?
Everyone that has stomach issues with shrooms would be better off with these Big Bang Per Gram (BBPG) types because it's the wonky digestion of that insoluable mushroom tissue that produces so much of the gas that makes people feel like shit and can ruin a trip. I've got some Tamp's on grain right now that I would love for you to include in your calculations to see what their BE is because they produce both stones and fruit-- I don't remember seeing anyone do that BE math including both combined to see how that would work out. (I may have just missed it).
Bottom line, I love what you guys are doing with Pans and other non-cubes. I, like almost everyone else in the room most likely, started with cubes-- but aside from a few unusual types I hope to grow (like the PE family for example) I'm going to focus exclusively on non-cube BBPG types for the rest of my growing in the future-- I am taking notes on the discussion and experiments you guys are all using for peak BE-- I will take it from your experience that peak energy per cubic inch isn't some random factor, but something that intelligent cultivators should very fastiduously seek to optimize for both alks/gm and total dried grams for each type they are working with.
I have also some Semperviva on grain that I will be eager to apply these principles to as well-- but there's so much to learn, I'm just enjoying being part of the crowd watching you guys try things out. When we get moved towards the end of the year and I can start my pans, I will pull directly from your excellent discussions and examples.
Again-- thanks to jcm, BH, Jake, and all the other intrepid cultivators that are moving the goalpost higher and away from plan old cubes-- our community is so much better for it!
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
Edited by coAsTal (08/05/20 05:14 PM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26865041 - 08/05/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jcm4620 said: i personally never bought into the scratch it with a fork stuff tho. but if it works for ya then go for it also cubes dont really overlay tho so if ur scratching them its prolly cuz it became matted but the way you obtain a nice even and dense pinset is to have good surface conditions and good evaporation of the surface and replacing the surface conditions after evaporation. i mean i know we all can agree on this general basic information.
one thing nobody can ever agree on is potency. thats why i dont even really care to argue it with anyone. potency is mostly an opinion based on the experience one has and not by actual measured active compounds. too many different factors come into play with potency such as genetics,substrate grown on,environment grown in and the thing i think makes the biggest difference and that is fruit size. we all know that say 2 dry grams of smaller average sized fruits will be substantially more potent than 2 dry grams from fewer larger fruits. i have grown and dosed on cyans, cambos and bisporus and i could not tell the difference not 1 bit between any of them. so i think if potency is gnna be debated at all it really cant be by anything other than the percentage of active compounds that is known to be produced on average at the species/sub species level. anything other than that is really just a matter of personal opinion and really has no evidence behind it. other than by what the species is known to produce on an average basis there is no way to even measure it.
also just to add what i actually use as a substate i use a 60% chopped wheat straw and 40% shredded horse manure substrate. now i was using a 1.2 grain spawn to sub ratio. each one of my trays holds exactly 6 total qts minus the casing. so every tray contained 2 qts of colonized rye berries. keep in mind the qt jars are not all the way full so its really more like 1 3/4 qts of spawn to 4 full qts of sub. but by the amounts others use that is very high its just under a 1/3 grain. but i have had no issue with this ratio. now the grow i currently have going im actually using a 1.5 ratio and so far i have not noticed 1 bit of difference. the real result tho will be the way the fruiting and the yield goes. but if i can get by with 1/2 the amount of grain il be all over that shit and then il even be exploring that further and seeing just how far down i can go with it. and from what i see others using that is totally do able. but pans can grow just as well with that amount of grain and i know others have used similar ratios and had good results also. but if i can get by with less that will be great. im really exited to try this with the current grow i have going and il be sure to share my reaults in the pan thread and in my journal. but when i started growing pans i was using a 1.4 ratio but upped it when i wasnt getting what i wanted out of it. then wnen i started getting better results i just stuck with that ratio. but honestly im thinking that the 1.4 ratio was just fine from the start and that it was just me not really knowing what to do and look for with them. i was just kinda winging it and going with the flow. but now that i have learned a lot more about the species and know what to look for and what to do in givin situations i think ima be just fine n dandy at the lower ratio๐๐
This might surprise you but I actually do not like scratching! I also don't like mixing my bags at 50%. I just get this sick feeling that I'm doing more harm than good, but looking at the results, not my gut, I cannot deny both things work for the greater good usually. Now, I cannot speak for cambos about scratching because this is the first time I've tried this, but I can speak for cubensis: it's true that cubensis doesn't have overlay usually, and when it does (like in my cococoir versus peat experiment) it isn't that important since cubensis can pin without any casing. Here is the summary slide from that old experiment, by the way:

Clearly the coco coir just became an extension to the substrate whereas peat/vermiculite kept functioning as a casing (i.e. a water reservoir). Even though I don't like scratching, though, I still like what I've seen as the result, which was more frequently dense pin sets. It isn't totally necessary by any means, but it can make a big difference. Here is what I mean by "a dense pin set":
 
If you aren't seeing that in your cubensis grow then you should ask what you can do because that is what a proper cubensis tray should look like (and it was lightly scratched too but that's not the whole reason it looks like that or anything even though it proves that scratching doesn't hurt if done right).
How does scratching work? It works by breaking up the mycelium running unevenly through the casing. Small mycelium fragments (from the overlay or not) are spread evenly through the casing and reconnect to the base IF--and this is a big IF--it doesn't kill the mycelium first. When it works, the result is a more even and dense pin set unless you do it too late. If you do it even a couple days too late, you'll destroy the tray, so it's all about timing. It's not a technique for amateurs for sure, though, because it's too timing sensitive, and I often don't do it even for cubes unless the casing is clearly developing unevenly.
As for the manure-based substrate, I like it for the same reason you like to mix in straw. Just like straw, manure has very low density, and it also grabs extra water like a sponge (probably does this better than even straw does). Opening up the substrate like that to water means heavier yields because often what is limited in a substrate isn't nutrition but water and cropping surface area. If you can increase your water and tray surface area, you'll see heavier yields!
In my opinion, growing mushrooms is really all about water management to be honest. That's what a good casing does, but it's also what a good substrate should do. For example, do you know why trays stop producing heavy flushes in the third flush and beyond? It isn't usually about nutrients left; it's usually about the substrate becoming non-receptive to water and too compact even while there is plenty of goodies to eat left. That's where straw and manure make the magic happen too! Both straw and manure reduce the substrate density, increase the water content of the substrate per surface area, and keep the substrate open to water longer. I love them both for that reason.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/05/20 05:22 PM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal] 1
#26865085 - 08/05/20 05:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
coAsTal said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said: Yes, things sure have changed, Puduwoke! It's a refreshing change too. I think the cat is out of the bag: pan cyans and related smaller mushrooms aren't too hard to grow and yield far beyond what cubes can not just in terms of magic but even in terms of raw yield now with cambos! If you look at my cubensis-equivalent BE on pans (assuming the fruits are a full 10% solid like cubes are), I computed 171%! Bear in mind that is a substantially higher yield of a mushroom that is a MINIMUM of 2X as potent as cubensis on a per-gram basis! And some, like jcm4620, argue they are every bit as potent and pan cyans even, which are about 4X as potent as cubensis! Either way you are getting at least 3X the magic from a species that is very hardy. I'd put these cambos at almost as easy to grow as cubensis even!
I remember reading long ago that some of the interviewed shamans in Mexico told American and European scholars back in the 50's or 60's that they considered cubensis to be the very bottom rung of the hierarchy of visionary mushrooms. The Caeru's, Zap's, Semperviva, and Mexicana mushrooms were always rated at the top. One suspects that Pans would have been included firmly high on that list if they had grown in the places these interviewed shamans had practiced.
I tend to agree with jcm that chemically there's very little functionally different between Psilocybes of all types, as it's almost always Psilocybin/Psilocin in the end... so as you said very well-- what cultivators SHOULD be doing is looking for the highest strength per gram possible, because the higher the potency, the less one needs to attain the chosen strength of their experience. Also, with cubes SO much energy is being used to produce the thick mushroom material that makes cubes so strong physically--as in resistant to harsh environmental conditions. That energy does not usually translate into high alk content-- so why pick them when more delicate but high-alk Pans or Mex could give you way more bang with just 1 to 2 grams per session?
Everyone that has stomach issues with shrooms would be better off with these Big Bang Per Gram (BBPG) types because it's the wonky digestion of that insoluable mushroom tissue that produces so much of the gas that makes people feel like shit and can ruin a trip. I've got some Tamp's on grain right now that I would love for you to include in your calculations to see what their BE is because they produce both stones and fruit-- I don't remember seeing anyone do that BE math including both combined to see how that would work out. (I may have just missed it).
Bottom line, I love what you guys are doing with Pans and other non-cubes. I, like almost everyone else in the room most likely, started with cubes-- but aside from a few unusual types I hope to grow (like the PE family for example) I'm going to focus exclusively on non-cube BBPG types for the rest of my growing in the future-- I am taking notes on the discussion and experiments you guys are all using for peak BE-- I will take it from your experience that peak energy per cubic inch isn't some random factor, but something that intelligent cultivators should very fastiduously seek to optimize for both alks/gm and total dried grams for each type they are working with.
I have also some Semperviva on grain that I will be eager to apply these principles too as well-- but there's so much to learn, I'm just enjoying being part of the crowd watching you guys try things out. When we get moved towards the end of the year and I can start my pans, I will pull directly from your excellent discussions and examples.
Again-- thanks to jcm, BH, Jake, and all the other intrepid cultivators that are moving the goalpost higher and away from plan old cubes-- our community is so much better for it!

Ah, you sound like a convert to the little potent ones! Uh, if you'd like I can calculate the true BE as well as cubensis-equivalent BE for you. Just make note of the weight of the dry ingredients in your substrate (or tell me its wet weight and I'll assume it's 65% water like is usually the case). Then when you harvest, take note of the wet weight of your harvest (that'll give me true BE) and the dry weight (from there I can compute the cubensis-equivalent BE so you can compare more easily with cubes).
By the way, what I'm calling "cubensis-equivalent BE" is simply when I assume your fruits are 10% dry matter even if they are actually only 5.5% dry matter like cambos. In this grow, the true BE of cambos is about 320% whereas the cube-equivalent BE was about 170% - both unbelievably high when you consider cubensis doesn't usually produce much over 130% BE even in the most ideal conditions.
|
coAsTal
Friend


Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 2,970
Loc: 8a
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26865099 - 08/05/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I will be able to do the math based on the formula you provided -- I wouldn't burden you with doing it for my grow  I was really just wondering if anyone else with your TC experience level had done BE calcs with stone producers in the past, as they make two different types of alk-containing tissue. Once dried, I would like to see how they stack up against the Pans. I will follow up in a couple months when I have some numbers to share. (Sorry to derail this Pan thread a bit!!!)
-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26865101 - 08/05/20 05:23 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
ya thats fucking ungodly high lol
|
|