|
Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26839834 - 07/23/20 06:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Alright, awesome. Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know if the overlay was denser and utilized more of the subtrate or not.
Either way, still a great log and I can't wait to get into some panaleous
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E] 1
#26841176 - 07/23/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
jcm4620 had asked me about how much LC I use to inoculate the bags and the size of the needle. I actually use a weird big ass stainless steel needle that is 12 gauge and 3" long. I inject 140ml using a huge syringe. But I'm almost sure you don't have to go so large like that. It's like asking how much mycelium do you need to inoculate an agar plate? The right answer is that it really doesn't much matter. You can use a speck you cannot even see OR you can use a square inch from another plate. Either way, it'll work. LCs inoculations are the same. LCs usually can be sucked up pretty well in any needle 16 gauge or larger (most spore syringe vendors use 16-gauge needles). If you get much smaller than that, you might have some clogging issues depending on the species of the LC. And they don't need to be more than an inch long really (you could get away with probably a half inch if you had to even) because you can mix the bag up after the injection.
Each time I post one of these grow logs, I am hopeful people might look at the yield and will try out LCs. In my opinion, the LC technique direct to the bulk substrate works better and is easier than spawning for small-to-medium grows (say under 50-pound harvests). If you are going really big, then LC-direct-to-bulk has the disadvantage that the substrate must be sterilized rather than just pasteurized. Sterilization is too energy intensive to compare favorably to spawning a pasteurized substrate when you are talking huge farms, so it would put professional grow operations of stuff like portabellas at a disadvantage. Spawning also allows spawn-generation operations to be outsourced to a third party, which is a big bonus for small farms. Companies like Amycel (http://www.amycel.com/) specialize in spawn generation so that endpoint farmers don't need to have huge walk-in pressure cookers and deal with sterile techniques. They just pasteurize some compost, let it cool, spread and mix in the spawn at a certain ratio, let it colonize, and then case and fruit (avoiding all sterile technique stuff).
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix] 2
#26843658 - 07/24/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
well think its time to pull this tray. its the 3rd flush and they are gettin pretty damn small. but all and all its been a good grow and i cant complain😃 thanks again blue it was a real blast man and i cant wait to see the grain grow of these. then hopefully we can do some more shit together in the future cuz it really was fun👍👍
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26843912 - 07/25/20 02:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jcm4620 said: well think its time to pull this tray. its the 3rd flush and they are gettin pretty damn small. but all and all its been a good grow and i cant complain😃 thanks again blue it was a real blast man and i cant wait to see the grain grow of these. then hopefully we can do some more shit together in the future cuz it really was fun👍👍
Yeah, once fruits start to get small like that, you've exhausted the substrate. Three flushes is a fine number, though, especially with how heavily these flush. I have duplicated your substrate (the grain-based one you use) and it's working fine using the normal LC-to-spawn-bag technique (i.e. without using spawn). The bags are 4 days old but rapidly finishing now. I'm super curious how yields compare between my normal manure-heavy substrate and your grain-heavy one. My hunch is that the grain-heavy substrate will have less yield, but maybe the fruits will be more potent. I'll post here when I find out!
|
A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
Posts: 16,782
Loc: Gaming the system
Last seen: 2 hours, 3 minutes
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844075 - 07/25/20 06:32 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I wouldn’t have expected there to be a difference between lc or grain spawn grows, do you think it apples to cubes as well or is it related to pans liking manure? I would’ve thought a sub would run the same once it was colonized.
Mushrooms are super weird.
--------------------
LAGM2020     
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a] 1
#26844216 - 07/25/20 08:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
A.k.a said: I wouldn’t have expected there to be a difference between lc or grain spawn grows, do you think it apples to cubes as well or is it related to pans liking manure? I would’ve thought a sub would run the same once it was colonized.
Mushrooms are super weird.
I don't expect a difference between LC or grain spawn runs either, but that's not what I'm talking about. We are talking about two different substrates here, though. The two recipes involved are grain-heavy and manure-heavy (although strictly speaking both of these are grain-heavy compared to anything that would be used in the real world where such mushroom growing does not feature super spawning and spawn rates are almost always less than 2% wet weight. Almost everyone on Shroomery is using incredibly high amounts of grain in their grows compared to real mushroom farms which could never afford such a luxury). jcm4620 and I already observed major difference in mycelium development characteristics between these two substrates:
Quote:
Grain-heavy Substrate (grain-to-manure wet volume ratio 1:2)- Manure 34 oz
- WBS 25 oz
- Vermiculite 1.5 L
- Water ~100 oz
~10 pounds total
Quote:
Manure-heavy Substrate (grain-to-manure wet volume ratio 1:6.5)Manure 44 oz WBS 10 oz Vermiculite 1.5 L Water ~100 oz ~10 pounds total
Edited by Blue Helix (07/25/20 08:59 AM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: A.k.a]
#26844247 - 07/25/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
A.k.a said: I wouldn’t have expected there to be a difference between lc or grain spawn grows, do you think it apples to cubes as well or is it related to pans liking manure? I would’ve thought a sub would run the same once it was colonized.
Mushrooms are super weird.
I've grown cubes on almost straight grain and straight manure. I did not observe a great difference in potency to my recollection, but then again, I probably wasn't paying that much attention to it. I didn't pay as much attention to yields either a long time ago when I was growing cubes, but if I were to make a bet, I'd say straight grain runs or runs with very, very heavy grain contents will yield less unless there is quite a bit of vermiculite in there. A lot of people don't realize it, but grains, while more nutritious, contain far less water than manure does. Manure is usually mixed to around 65% water (ideally) for mushroom growing even while it can hold even more than that. Grains can only contain about 50% water (they just won't hold beyond that). So if you don't do something to change the low water content of grain (like adding a lot of vermiculite), you'll stunt yields considerably because the mycelium just won't be able to extract the water as easily. Maybe a heavier casing might help with that, though; I don't know. I really don't get why people use so much grain. Grain beyond what farms use makes sense, but I'm seeing recipes floating around with so much grain in them that they probably are stunting growth, especially in the later flushes.
By best cubensis grows used a substrate a lot like the manure-heavy one listed in my previous post:
   
Edited by Blue Helix (07/25/20 09:20 AM)
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844260 - 07/25/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
my substrate recipe for the last 2 grows of those has been by volume. each tray contains
2qts rye berries as spawn 4qts chopped wheat straw and shredded horse manure. 60%straw 40% horse manure. very thin casing of 50/50peat and med grade verm. ph balanced with calcium carbonate to 7.5
so my spawn to sub ratio is 1.2
however i have a grow in the works where i will be going back to a 1.4 ratio of the same substrate mix. im just cutting tbe amount of grain in half is all. just wnna see if i can have the same or better results on a lower amount of grain. but i will also be adding a small amount if promycel gold to the mix.
after seeing so many others using way less grain than i am i wanna go back to the 1.4 ratio i started off at and see if i can get the results im after. i upped my grain when i wasnt getting the desired results but now that i have learned a lot over these last 3 or 4 grows im thinking i just wasnt getting the results i wanted due to being new to the species and not in tune to what to look for and knowing what they like and dont like. so now after knowing more about them i wanna give it another go with the 1.4 ratio and see what happens😃
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: jcm4620] 1
#26844281 - 07/25/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
jcm4620 said: my substrate recipe for the last 2 grows of those has been by volume. each tray contains
2qts rye berries as spawn 4qts chopped wheat straw and shredded horse manure. 60%straw 40% horse manure. very thin casing of 50/50peat and med grade verm. ph balanced with calcium carbonate to 7.5
so my spawn to sub ratio is 1.2
however i have a grow in the works where i will be going back to a 1.4 ratio of the same substrate mix. im just cutting tbe amount of grain in half is all. just wnna see if i can have the same or better results on a lower amount of grain. but i will also be adding a small amount if promycel gold to the mix.
after seeing so many others using way less grain than i am i wanna go back to the 1.4 ratio i started off at and see if i can get the results im after. i upped my grain when i wasnt getting the desired results but now that i have learned a lot over these last 3 or 4 grows im thinking i just wasnt getting the results i wanted due to being new to the species and not in tune to what to look for and knowing what they like and dont like. so now after knowing more about them i wanna give it another go with the 1.4 ratio and see what happens😃
Just to be clear about jcm4620's recipe: since he's had such luck with it and so I could try it too, I spent a lot of effort back converting his volume ratio recipe to dry weight ratio, so I could try it too (the only difference is that I did not introduce the straw since that is next to impossible to convert to a dry ratio without knowing a whole bunch of stuff about his straw). His former wet volume ratio is 1:2. I'm calling that the grain-heavy substrate above. My current wet volume ratio in the manure-heavy mix is 1:6.5. So his new wet volume ratio of 1:4 is somewhere between those two.
The reason I prefer dry weight ratios in my recipes rather than wet volume ratios is really for two reasons. One, dry weight doesn't change between two growers. I will never get a batch of manure where 1 ounce doesn't weigh 1 ounce (it's a redundant statement); that is, consistency is intrinsic to the measurement itself (that is not true about volumes at all since the density of your straw or manure might be different than my straw or manure). The second reason is that I spent ZERO time washing and making grain for my substrate. Sure I tried it and it made no difference. I weight it and throw it in the mix dry. All the grain cooks in the substrate bags in the pressure cooker along with all the other ingredients. That's just because I'm lazy and do not believe there is an advantage to prepping hydrated grain before mixing it in. I think the people who claim all that extra work matters are mistaken (at least when it comes to final substrates; it might matter for spawn though). If it's true that it matters when making a final substrate--and again I'm not talking spawn here because I don't use spawn--I need proof because I've tried it both ways, and it made no difference.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/25/20 09:45 AM)
|
Luv_The_Cyans
High as a kite ;)



Registered: 03/10/03
Posts: 453
Loc: BC and BCS
Last seen: 8 months, 30 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844331 - 07/25/20 09:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Nice grow Helix! That BE is insane Will try your recipe when I can get a clean LC going.
|
fightingcherries



Registered: 10/23/13
Posts: 107
Last seen: 2 years, 7 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844395 - 07/25/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
I have some pan cyan, I grew dried and ready to go. That last line you said just made me rethink how much I was going to take! Have you tried Azurescens? How do they compare to cyans?
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
|
Quote:
fightingcherries said: I have some pan cyan, I grew dried and ready to go. That last line you said just made me rethink how much I was going to take! Have you tried Azurescens? How do they compare to cyans?
I've never had the pleasure of trying Azurescens, but if you look at the measured potency range, their top end suggests they really are stronger than all of these, 2X as potent or more than pan cyans. Azurescens are a wood-loving and cold-weather species, though. Under very specific conditions they can grow in big groups, but it's not the usual case in nature. I've not read of a successful indoor cultivation of them, but I'm sure someone's done it. It certainly wouldn't be easy, though, and it'd take a lot longer to fruit
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844690 - 07/25/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Here's a standard potency measurements. Sorry that this was formatted with a fix-width font so kind of looks like shit here and this doesn't talk about the considerable ranges involved which can vary 2 or 3X within a species depending stuff like what they're grown on. Notice that this chart does put cyans even 2X as potent as cubensis. I don't know about that... but it's interesting:
SPECIES % PSILOCYBIN % PSILOCIN % BAEOCYSTIN REFERENCE P. azurenscens 1.78 .38 .35 Stamets and Gartz 1995 P. bohemica 1.34 .11 .02 Gartz and Muller 1989; Gartz (1994) P. semilanceata .98 .02 .36 Gartz 1994 P. baeocystis .85 .59 .10 Repke et al. 1977; Beug and Bigwood 1982(b) P. cyanescens .85 .36 .03 Stijve and Kuyper 1985; Repke et al. 1977 P. tampanensis .68 .32 n/a Gartz 1994 P. cubensis .63 .60 .025 Gartz 1994; Stijve and de Meijer 1993 P. weilii .61 .27 .05 P. hoogshagenii .60 .10 n/a Heim and Hofmann 1958 P. stuntzii .36 .12 .02 Beug and Bigwood 1982(b); Repke et al. 1977 P. cyanofibrillosa .21 .04 n/a Stamets et al. 1980 P. liniformans .16 n/d .005 Stijve and Kuyper
I sure wish some lab would do a set of tests for all of these using the same equipment in the same lab. This chart is some hodgepodge of efforts, and is probably hardly work reading.
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 10 days, 22 hours
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26844730 - 07/25/20 02:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
This paper by Stijve is buried on the site and is pretty interesting.
https://www.shroomery.org/8697/Stijve-T-1992-Psilocin-psilocybin-serotonin-and-urea-in-Panaeolus-cyanescens-from-various-origin
Psilocin content seems to vary widely. In this report, the samples from Australia were lowest, but I have another report (that I can't seem to find right now) that shows it highest. Nice tidbits of info in this paper like the fact that actives seem to be equally distributed across the entire fruiting body.
And who knew that cyans contained pee?
|
c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26845213 - 07/25/20 09:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asura said:
And who knew that cyans contained pee?
I didnt know you guys like watersports
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Asura]
#26845408 - 07/26/20 01:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asura said: This paper by Stijve is buried on the site and is pretty interesting.
https://www.shroomery.org/8697/Stijve-T-1992-Psilocin-psilocybin-serotonin-and-urea-in-Panaeolus-cyanescens-from-various-origin
Psilocin content seems to vary widely. In this report, the samples from Australia were lowest, but I have another report (that I can't seem to find right now) that shows it highest. Nice tidbits of info in this paper like the fact that actives seem to be equally distributed across the entire fruiting body.
And who knew that cyans contained pee?
Any mushroom that grows on manure (aged or not) is bound to contain at least traces of urea. It's the same with cubensis grown on manure. I think if that's a problem for you, you better stick with grains and vermiculite. LOL I personally don't see the big deal, though. After all I contain pee--always have--and I'm doing just fine!
|
Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Blue Helix]
#26845473 - 07/26/20 03:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
|
|
Premarin, a hormone replacement therapy used in menopausal women is derived from horse pee. The trade name is an anagram (i think that's the word) of Pregnant Mare Urine.
So I guess it's not that weird
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
|
coAsTal
Friend


Registered: 04/04/06
Posts: 2,970
Loc: 8a
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26849946 - 07/28/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
As I wait for my Pan Jam print from jcm from the series you profile here, I'm really just posting because I want to get in on this thread to monitor it's discussions.
BH, a fantastic log-- I told jcm I'm planning on initiating my grow this autumn after a move when I can dedicate some space to Pans and their environmental needs.
I know you said you didn't want to go into your LC methods here too much, but I'm in the midst of a history search of your posts to see how you roll that, because I love the idea of contained nock-ups and spawn-stage elimination. Always seemed like an un-needed doubling of the time required to get jiggy.

-------------------- I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination-- John Keats Spore Trading List
|
jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
Posts: 6,700
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: coAsTal]
#26849983 - 07/28/20 01:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
ive only got 5 of the prints left to be claimed once i get pms with address for those i will post about getting them all out to everyone whos in 👍👍😃
again anyone interested pm me subject "jam print" and leave an address in there or thru privnote. all questions regarding prints should be done thru pm or in my write up linked in my signature below as i dont want to clutter this with print request😃
they will be going out all at once👍
also my total dry weight off the 2 trays was 163.grms not bad but not as good as my previous but thats my own fault cuz i had to go outta town and i had a cpl minor issues but i still cant complain. we both had a good grow and i cant wait to see the higher grain content grow to follow👍👍 thnx again blue😃
|
Mycostotle
Stranger

Registered: 11/11/19
Posts: 36
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
|
Re: Panaeolus Grow Log Report [Re: Wall.E]
#26850236 - 07/28/20 04:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
What did you use as casing?
|
|