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Offlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836952 - 07/21/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?




Source? I'd have to read the individual cases to give you an opinion.




18 people in total have been charged by feds. Only one person has been held in custody.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-lot-people-jail-portland-protests-charged/story%3fid=71905497


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26836954 - 07/21/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Crime is largely a response to poverty and desperation.  I would hypothesize that crime will rise as long as poverty, joblessness, evictions, etc. continue to rise.  No amount of police or lack thereof can really stop it.  At best, maybe a really over the top show of force could quell it for a time in the way that a tourniquet can staunch a wound for a time but you'll still die or lose the limb without real treatment.


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OfflineSulfurshelfsean
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26836962 - 07/21/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Theyre just trying to scare people. Its a giant waste of money. Trump is the best at wasting money.


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Offlinechristopera
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26836965 - 07/21/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think you are agreeing with qman who is agreeing with koods. Van is the only one who can’t seem to grasp the reality of the situation.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836966 - 07/21/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
As a further insight, if crime against other people and not just the fed was to go up due to the fed's presence, that's essentially hostage taking. It's the rioters saying, "We're not going to stop harming these people until you go away."

That's basically hostage taking.




Well, one would have to establish a direct causation. Crime could go up for a very large variety of reasons. For starters, we're in a serious pandemic and economic depression, those factors alone can cause crime to go up in most environments.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods] * 1
    #26836968 - 07/21/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?




Source? I'd have to read the individual cases to give you an opinion.




18 people in total have been charged by feds. Only one person has been held in custody.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-lot-people-jail-portland-protests-charged/story%3fid=71905497




Your own link shows at least 43 arrests/illegal detentions leading to 13 charges.

You're literally linking to evidence and then continuing to pull shit out of your ass.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: qman]
    #26836970 - 07/21/20 07:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?




Source? I'd have to read the individual cases to give you an opinion.




It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.




I do agree. I want the source to see if that's what actually happened, if it was a one-time arrest mistake-of-a-case the media is highlighting, or if it happened multiple times.

I completely condemn the last if that is what happened. I can forgive one accidental overnight arrest in the same way I could forgive a group of protesters where one or two unruly people broke some shit and they didn't represent the full group.

I can't forgive 100 arson-related attacks in 10 days, let alone everything else.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods] * 1
    #26836975 - 07/21/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?




Source? I'd have to read the individual cases to give you an opinion.




18 people in total have been charged by feds. Only one person has been held in custody.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-lot-people-jail-portland-protests-charged/story%3fid=71905497




This article lists crimes that all of them have committed.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26836976 - 07/21/20 07:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I could forgive 100 burned down police union offices if they yielded 1 less 100 lb. girl with her teeth punched out by the cops


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Offlineqman
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26836978 - 07/21/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.




But the feds are mostly doing the catch and release.

They are quite literally fishing, oftentimes nowhere near crimes.




I agree, it's typical escalate, intimidate and retaliate police tactics against people they don't like for whatever reason.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26836980 - 07/21/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Crime is largely a response to poverty and desperation.  I would hypothesize that crime will rise as long as poverty, joblessness, evictions, etc. continue to rise.  No amount of police or lack thereof can really stop it.  At best, maybe a really over the top show of force could quell it for a time in the way that a tourniquet can staunch a wound for a time but you'll still die or lose the limb without real treatment.




I actually mostly agree with this in the sense that you often have to go to the source to stop certain kinds of crime in more compassionate ways, but this doesn't mitigate the influence cops have on stopping crime, either.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: qman]
    #26836986 - 07/21/20 07:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.




But the feds are mostly doing the catch and release.

They are quite literally fishing, oftentimes nowhere near crimes.




I agree, it's typical escalate, intimidate and retaliate police tactics against people they don't like for whatever reason.




Despite the fact that escalate, intimidate and retaliate are the tactics Antifa and the rioters have been using for weeks, I don't agree with this catch and release I'm reading about. You need to have hard reason to detain someone, not assumptions.


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26836992 - 07/21/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
The federal police aren't responding to protesting, they are responding to criminal activity that isn't being handled according to the law. Vandalism. The destruction of public and private property. Theft. Violence. Arson. It's a BIG list.



The federal police aren't just protecting federal property, they are roaming the city against the explicit request of both municipal and state governments, operating without identification and in full camouflage gear, using tactics denied to local police by the courts, and seizing protesters and holding them without due process. Does all that really strike you as "handled according to the law"?



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
The rioters get mad that the feds are interfering with their "peaceful" protests and use it as justification to commit more crime, despite the fact that their protests were not peaceful to begin with. It's sick and twisted. The mentality of children, really.

To blame this on the police rather than the rioters is to absolve the rioters of their personal accountability. Are they animals, or do they have freedom of choice?

"You made me do this" is a weak excuse. Police presence being responsible for an increase in crime is flipping the script much like an abusive alcoholic blames you for his anger and abuse when you refuse him another bottle.



Can you only operate in absolutes? Protesters all bad... Cops only good... We can acknowledge the riots as being an understandable response to systemic police violence and corruption without justifying every act committed. We can question whether the reaction by the police has played a role in deescalation or incitement without blaming them for everything that happened.

And remember we are not talking about mere police presence - I specifically said "police behaviours (like brutality and abuse of authority) and unjust laws". Is that not you attempting to flip the script by pretending we are just discussing harmless behaviour, and make me doubt myself?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836995 - 07/21/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836998 - 07/21/20 08:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Antifa hasn't killed anyone. Cops kill about 1000 people a year. It doesn't get more escalated than that.


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837006 - 07/21/20 08:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.




But the feds are mostly doing the catch and release.

They are quite literally fishing, oftentimes nowhere near crimes.




I agree, it's typical escalate, intimidate and retaliate police tactics against people they don't like for whatever reason.




Despite the fact that escalate, intimidate and retaliate are the tactics Antifa and the rioters have been using for weeks, I don't agree with this catch and release I'm reading about. You need to have hard reason to detain someone, not assumptions.




You’ve spent this entire thread arguing that everyone at the protests should be locked up. Make up your mind.

BTW, you really suck at this. You should pick up a new hobby.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837012 - 07/21/20 08:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Quote:

qman said:
It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.




But the feds are mostly doing the catch and release.

They are quite literally fishing, oftentimes nowhere near crimes.




I agree, it's typical escalate, intimidate and retaliate police tactics against people they don't like for whatever reason.




Despite the fact that escalate, intimidate and retaliate are the tactics Antifa and the rioters have been using for weeks, I don't agree with this catch and release I'm reading about. You need to have hard reason to detain someone, not assumptions.




I'm glad we agree. I don't have any expectations for a group of misfits in Antifa and they're not funded with our tax revenue. The police on the other hand are HIRED by the PUBLIC, therefore my expectations are very different for their institution. So let's not make comparisons between a group of private misfits and public employees.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #26837027 - 07/21/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We can acknowledge the riots as being an understandable response to systemic police violence and corruption without justifying every act committed.




Agree. I have zero problem with the protesters, I have every problem with criminal activity. I've already made my list.

It's more like protesters all good, rioters all bad. And I WILL stand by that absolute.

As for cops... most good, some bad.

Quote:

We can question whether the reaction by the police has played a role in deescalation or incitement without blaming them for everything that happened.




Again, agree. To the extent they've unlawfully arrested anyone, I oppose that.

I would not be opposed to their presence if they'd stay within their jurisdiction. My position
WANTS something done to stop the crime in Portland, but it needs to be done justly.

Quote:

And remember we are not talking about mere police presence - I specifically said "police behaviours (like brutality and abuse of authority) and unjust laws". Is that not you attempting to flip the script by pretending we are just discussing harmless behaviour, and make me doubt myself?




I get what you're saying and I'm going to have to nuance my argument now due to the angle you've presented. I am confident in the point you are making, actually... that a larger police presence can cause a certain group of people to want to rebel even harder (whether or not they take it out on the right people determines how just their cause is). And I'll also give you credit when you say that corrupt police officers can ignite the flames of indignation in protest groups even more. Hell, I've protested against the police before. I understand the system is not always just.

Having said that, we are using a rare group of "criminals" when discussing rioters. The typical classes of crime: thieves, rapists, murderers, etc... they'd run rampant when there's not enough law enforcement to keep them in line. That kind of crime doesn't increase when there's more police, it goes down.

A protest with rioting directly connected to police behavior is not a long-term event and can't be accurately assessed the way other crime statistics can per month, per year, per decade, like murder and rapes can.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/21/20 08:18 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837028 - 07/21/20 08:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Antifa hasn't killed anyone.




This is unproveable. I'd argue likely false.

BLM rioters, however, are definitely directly or indirectly responsible for some deaths. Two African Americans in particular come to mind, but there have been others. They may or may not have been with Antifa.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/21/20 08:20 PM)


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Offlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837030 - 07/21/20 08:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There’s a lot of crime directly related to police activity. Always has been. Cops are just another street gang .


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