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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26836820 - 07/21/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And the addition of federal paramilitary police forces appears to have only exacerbated things.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836821 - 07/21/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As long as we define "stand down" as "no police on duty whatsoever," sure…  If/when that happens, we'll talk about a bet.


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836822 - 07/21/20 06:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A wager based on the continuation of a demonstrably false premise?  Why would he be excited about that?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26836825 - 07/21/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
And the addition of Federal paramilitary police forces appears to have only exacerbated things.




I honestly am for pulling them out and letting Portland go to hell. That's their destination without federal help at this point, cuz they won't do it themselves. If the state wants to dig its own grave, let it.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/21/20 06:48 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26836826 - 07/21/20 06:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
A wager based on the continuation of a demonstrably false premise?  Why would he be excited about that?




Because if I'm full of shit both of you can make an easy $500.


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836828 - 07/21/20 06:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That doesn't address my point that the addition of police has been observed to have the same affect you wish to solely attribute to the removal of police.


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836830 - 07/21/20 06:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But the premise of the wager is that a continued stand-down will result in higher crime.  This presupposes a non-existent police stand-down and conditions victory at that point to any rise in crime.

Would you take the bet if it were premised on an increase in crime based on the continued federal paramilitary occupation of the city?

Edit: shivas.wisdom explained more concisely


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26836831 - 07/21/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
That doesn't address my point that the addition of police has been observed to have the same affect you wish to solely attribute to the removal of police.




Time out, let me get this straight. You're not only going to argue against cops preventing crime, but now you're going to argue that the presence of more (federal in this case) police is the reason we're seeing MORE crime?

Really? We're doing this?


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836846 - 07/21/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
A wager based on the continuation of a demonstrably false premise?  Why would he be excited about that?




Because if I'm full of shit both of you can make an easy $500.



I made more than that with a phone call today


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26836860 - 07/21/20 07:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Didn't you yourself say that crime is spiraling out of control there?  It seems clear that the addition of anonymized federal goons has, in fact, precipitated a growing number of normal folks taking to the streets in opposition.  This being the case, is shivas.wisdom's argument so absurd?


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Onlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836868 - 07/21/20 07:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not arguing in such absolutes but essentially yes, I'm saying that police behaviours (like brutality and abuse of authority) and unjust laws can themselves incite violent or destructive responses from an otherwise non violent population.

The riots were themselves clearly predicated on police violence. In the case of the federal paramilitary police forces sent to Portland, the result has certainly not been deescalation.


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836892 - 07/21/20 07:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Some people here (myself included) want objective proof of things.




Me too. I'm not disagreeing with that, actually.





Amazing. The two posters most resistant to objective truth say they want objective proof.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26836912 - 07/21/20 07:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I'm not arguing in such absolutes but essentially yes, I'm saying that police behaviours (like brutality and abuse of authority) and unjust laws can themselves incite violent or destructive responses from an otherwise non violent population.

The riots were themselves clearly predicated on police violence. In the case of the federal paramilitary police forces sent to Portland, the result has certainly not been deescalation.




This is how a civil war would occur in our nation.

The federal police aren't responding to protesting, they are responding to criminal activity that isn't being handled according to the law. Vandalism. The destruction of public and private property. Theft. Violence. Arson. It's a BIG list.

The rioters get mad that the feds are interfering with their "peaceful" protests and use it as justification to commit more crime, despite the fact that their protests were not peaceful to begin with. It's sick and twisted. The mentality of children, really.

To blame this on the police rather than the rioters is to absolve the rioters of their personal accountability. Are they animals, or do they have freedom of choice?

"You made me do this" is a weak excuse. Police presence being responsible for an increase in crime is flipping the script much like an abusive alcoholic blames you for his anger and abuse when you refuse him another bottle.


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26836915 - 07/21/20 07:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836919 - 07/21/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As a further insight, if crime against other people and not just the fed was to go up due to the fed's presence, that's essentially hostage taking. It's the rioters saying, "We're not going to stop harming these people until you go away."

That's basically hostage taking.


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods] * 1
    #26836923 - 07/21/20 07:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Damn...this is the kind of thread I expect to be made of a good 35% of falcon calling make believe. But not one....


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836929 - 07/21/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The cops are the problem and have been for a long time.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods]
    #26836932 - 07/21/20 07:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?




Source? I'd have to read the individual cases to give you an opinion.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/21/20 07:40 PM)


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26836941 - 07/21/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
If they are criminals why are most of the people being detained not charged with any crime?




Source? I'd have to read the individual cases to give you an opinion.




It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.


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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: qman]
    #26836946 - 07/21/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
It shouldn't be a problem, arrest people for committing criminal acts. Don't illegally detain people and then release them.




But the feds are mostly doing the catch and release.

They are quite literally fishing, oftentimes nowhere near crimes.


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