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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26838441 - 07/22/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I applaud Balls' attempt to discuss this with you, but your argument seems based on a complete lack of understanding of societies and the purpose thereof.  You seem to completely reject the idea of a social compact and assume that humans are savages by nature.  I'm confident that the two of you will never reach common ground because you're relying on some a priori notion of human nature that ignores the reality of the world around you.

Maybe if this were the 15th century, your ideas would be relevant.  It isn't, though.  We understand a whole lot more about humans and how to encourage social conduct and discourage antisocial conduct.  This very nation was founded on concepts that you seem to disregard.  I'm a bit surprised that this level of ignorance still exists among adults in the U.S.




I 85% agree with Joker.



--------------------

Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 02:14 PM)

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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838444 - 07/22/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

man i really hate that shit. i was talking to all kinds of people last night. none were democrats that i know of

you are free to sit in the park with us taking 40mm rubber to the nuts from 10 yards breathing in the chemical agents while the feds may or may not also be taking head shots at you or detaining and beating you without  cause because its how we keep everyone safe in america

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Offlineqman
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26838448 - 07/22/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Thats because the states is so large and diverse. A lot of states are completely safe and experience relatively low murders while a hand full of states throw the numbers out of whack. 63 people were shot over the weekend in Chicago for fucks sake




Yes, most of the violence (not all, but most) is concentrated in cities with democratic leadership and democratic populations and is perpetuated by people that don't vote republican.




Correlation isn't causation, please demonstrate how Democratic leadership in US cities is the cause of the high levels of poverty and violence.

What would Republican leadership do specifically to change that outcome?

Do you know what influences economic conditions in US cities?  It's not the mayors, it's Federal economic policies!!! It's tax, trade, fiscal and monetary policy that dictates economic outcomes in US cities, not city mayors.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838450 - 07/22/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I applaud Balls' attempt to discuss this with you, but your argument seems based on a complete lack of understanding of societies and the purpose thereof.  You seem to completely reject the idea of a social compact and assume that humans are savages by nature.  I'm confident that the two of you will never reach common ground because you're relying on some a priori notion of human nature that ignores the reality of the world around you.

Maybe if this were the 15th century, your ideas would be relevant.  It isn't, though.  We understand a whole lot more about humans and how to encourage social conduct and discourage antisocial conduct.  This very nation was founded on concepts that you seem to disregard.  I'm a bit surprised that this level of ignorance still exists among adults in the U.S.




I 85% agree with Joker.





As the old adage goes, Garbage in/Garbage out.  It's not surprising that you'd be as ill-informed as you are if you're looking to comic book movies to understand human nature.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: qman] * 3
    #26838454 - 07/22/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:

Correlation isn't causation, please demonstrate how Democratic leadership in US cities is the cause of the high levels of poverty and violence.

What would Republican leadership do specifically to change that outcome?

Do you know what influences economic conditions in US cities?  It's not the mayors, it's Federal economic policies!!! It's tax, trade, fiscal and monetary policy that dictates economic outcomes in US cities, not city mayors.




Fuck, I hate agreeing with you.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26838463 - 07/22/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

I never understand the endgame of people that agree with Joker. Apart from juvenile edgelording, of course.

Joker's life absolutely sucks, and his entire thing is that instead of figuring out ways to improve his own life, by, say, getting some treatment for all of his mental problems, he tries to make everyone else's life suck as much as his does. Of course, as a relatively intelligent guy/deus ex machina, Joker moderately succeeds in making life worse for everyone else, until Batman punches the shit out of him and throws him in prison. Then life for everyone gets better, until Joker breaks out and repeats the cycle.

How is that a good thing?

Unless you actively take pleasure in harming others, harming other people won't make your life any better.

Of course, given the current GOP, it seems to me that roughly 30% of the country does actively take pleasure in harming others and nothing else.

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Onlinekoods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26838464 - 07/22/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Thats because the states is so large and diverse. A lot of states are completely safe and experience relatively low murders while a hand full of states throw the numbers out of whack. 63 people were shot over the weekend in Chicago for fucks sake



There is no state that even gets close to a 0.5 per 100,000 homicide rate. There’s a couple states in the northeast and upper Midwest around 1.5 but most states are around 5-6. Alaska is 8. The high murder rate in the us is mainly due to the southern states, which are also the states that tend to believe in hardcore punishment like executions.

Edited by koods (07/22/20 02:29 PM)

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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods]
    #26838470 - 07/22/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

alaska is the worst by far and mostly unreported. anchorage is extremely dangerous

Edit: except maybe new orleans area

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26838471 - 07/22/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Completely false.





Lets do this again, shall we?


Quote:

Vahn421 said:
But FEAR and POWER are the only things we can use to keep evil in line. We can't use reason. We can't use love.




Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I define the evil as those that would rob individuals or groups of their freedoms through violence, destruction or theft.




Quote:

Vahn421 said:
It's actually 5.882% if you were to take 1,000 and 17,000 as the numbers to compare. (That was actually 2018 I got those numbers from. I may have said 2019.)

from my perspective, a number of the people that cops shoot...




Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Cops are also statistically the most likely to kill NON-innocent criminals. By far.




Quote:

ballsalsa said:
By your definition, police are evil.  Their job is to rob individuals and groups of their freedoms through violence and/or destruction, leading to death as an outcome much more often than would be desired.




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InvisibleMadMuncher
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Kryptos]
    #26838473 - 07/22/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I never understand the endgame of people that agree with Joker. Apart from juvenile edgelording, of course.

Joker's life absolutely sucks, and his entire thing is that instead of figuring out ways to improve his own life, by, say, getting some treatment for all of his mental problems, he tries to make everyone else's life suck as much as his does. Of course, as a relatively intelligent guy/deus ex machina, Joker moderately succeeds in making life worse for everyone else, until Batman punches the shit out of him and throws him in prison. Then life for everyone gets better, until Joker breaks out and repeats the cycle.

How is that a good thing?

Unless you actively take pleasure in harming others, harming other people won't make your life any better.

Of course, given the current GOP, it seems to me that roughly 30% of the country does actively take pleasure in harming others and nothing else.





hes probably a republican terrorist and/or a cop

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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #26838477 - 07/22/20 02:29 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Most people cops shoot are not innocent. They've committed acts of evil and have therefore opened themselves up for justice and retribution.


--------------------

Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 02:30 PM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26838483 - 07/22/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Most people cops shoot are not innocent. They've committed acts of evil and have therefore opened themselves up for justice and retribution.



False.  All of them are innocent since they have not been proven guilty in a court of law.  Or do you reject the presumption of innocence, too?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26838485 - 07/22/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I never understand the endgame of people that agree with Joker. Apart from juvenile edgelording, of course.

Joker's life absolutely sucks, and his entire thing is that instead of figuring out ways to improve his own life, by, say, getting some treatment for all of his mental problems, he tries to make everyone else's life suck as much as his does. Of course, as a relatively intelligent guy/deus ex machina, Joker moderately succeeds in making life worse for everyone else, until Batman punches the shit out of him and throws him in prison. Then life for everyone gets better, until Joker breaks out and repeats the cycle.

How is that a good thing?

Unless you actively take pleasure in harming others, harming other people won't make your life any better.

Of course, given the current GOP, it seems to me that roughly 30% of the country does actively take pleasure in harming others and nothing else.




Joker's assessment of the human condition is not moral justification regarding what he chose to do about it.

What made him a COMPELLING character what that he got so much about human psychology right even though what he chose to do about it was morally bankrupt.


--------------------

Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 02:32 PM)

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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838486 - 07/22/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Smoking weed is pretty evil, I must say.

That's why they call it the Devil's Lettuce.

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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838487 - 07/22/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

and in your mind that "justice" and "retribution" should be meted out by police, on the spot, without due process?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26838489 - 07/22/20 02:34 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Most people cops shoot are not innocent. They've committed acts of evil and have therefore opened themselves up for justice and retribution.



False.  All of them are innocent since they have not been proven guilty in a court of law.  Or do you reject the presumption of innocence, too?




I cannot believe I'm having this discussion with you.

If a cops option is to shoot or be shot or injured another way, he is justified in shooting. Not just according to our modern law, but according to universal laws of justice.

If a cop is chasing a criminal and his only option is to shoot to subdue, he is justified. If the criminal dies, it is unfortunate but the cop remains guilt free according to both our laws AND universal laws of justice.

You can disagree with my take on the latter, but that's where my morality lies.


--------------------

Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 02:34 PM)

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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838493 - 07/22/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Speaking more toward my point, I would give ANY of you the same free pass as cops in these conditions. You are justified.

Cops just handle these situations for us so we don't have to.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838495 - 07/22/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

And that's why cops shouldn't be armed.  Then we wouldn't have these "unfortunate" deaths, would we?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838496 - 07/22/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

who made these universal laws?  or are they just self-evident?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26838497 - 07/22/20 02:36 PM (3 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Joker's assessment of the human condition




...is fucking stupid.

That's it. Joker's assessment of the human condition is one of a State of Nature. As Hobbes said, "Nasty, Brutish, and Short". The only way to agree with this assessment is to reject society outright, and to revert to a state of nature.

I don't mean reject society in the off grid loony prepper crap, I mean reject the fact that society exists, existed, or can exist. Joker has a very big problem with the evidence that humans are fundamentally social creatures, and he chooses to reject the evidence in favor of his delusions.

Reminds me of a certain political group.

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