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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods] 1
#26838204 - 07/22/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: What you think you know about psychology is fine. It’s a decent theory. But, it turns out to be wrong.
Shit, I've just been checkmated by the most sound rebuttal ever. Back to the drawing board, I guess.
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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 12:25 PM)
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26838205 - 07/22/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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That video had very little to do with real life. Care to address my point now?
@koods - the old deterrence argument. it never goes away despite the evidence of...all of written history...that punishment is a piss-poor deterrent. Another one of those "self-evident facts" that turns out to be demonstrably false
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qman
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26838206 - 07/22/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
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qman said:
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Vahn421 said: It's actually 5.882% if you were to take 1,000 and 17,000 as the numbers to compare. (That was actually 2018 I got those numbers from. I may have said 2019.)
from my perspective, a number of the people that cops shoot were killers themselves and would have gone on to kill multiple other people themselves if they had not been shot.
If you want to talk data in sheer numbers of deaths, the police PREVENT more killings than they COMMIT, especially over the long haul when dealing with serial killers... and we're not just talking the cases cops shoot people, we're talking the MAJORITY of the cases when they DON'T and they STILL prevent a murder.
And it's not just murder they prevent, it's theft, destruction of property, violence, rape, etc...
Nobody is naive enough to believe that cops aren't guilty of major infractions against the American people and need to be held accountable. None of my republican friends would disagree with that statement. Not ONE.
But why is there this plague-like stupidity in our country that seems to assume we'll FIX the problem by removing the cops entirely?
The "proof" is in how many murderers police actually get off the street. I don't know the exact answer, but I GUARANTEE the number is much higher than the number of innocent people cops have killed.
Police reform is the answer. Eradication of police just means more rape, more theft, more MURDER, etc... etc...
Well, police respond to violent crime, they do not prevent it. More police doesn't mean less violent crime, less police doesn't mean more violent crime. Defunding the police doesn't mean less criminal arrests.
Chicago is a perfect example, plenty of police and still plenty of violent crime. Are the Chicago police arresting all of these drive by shooters? No, most get away because nobody knows who did it or won't contact the police even if they did know.
Nobody is asking to remove ALL of the police, defunding means LESS money for the current police departments.
If there wasn't such thing as repeat offenses, I'd agree with this argument. There's a reason when people commit a crime more than once often times the punishment winds up being harsher.
Also, people are underestimating how much crime simply isn't committed because of the FEAR of punishment. You have to punish enough lawbreakers to scare the rest into compliance, too.
That's the same narrative used by people who promote drug prohibition, but guess what? They have already been proven wrong.
You need to quantify how this more punishment = less crime. If it truly worked, we would have super harsh punishments and essentially zero criminal acts. Again, that's a pure fantasy world and doesn't resemble reality.
How did ultra harsh prison sentences work for stopping crack cocaine dealing and usage?
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MagicMush123
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods]
#26838208 - 07/22/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Conversely, Norway has a maximum prison sentence for murder of 21 years (and this sentence is extremely rare) and they have a murder rate 1/10th that of the US
Norway isn't even a 10th of the us population
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26838214 - 07/22/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
You need to quantify how this more punishment = less crime. If it truly worked, we would have super harsh punishments and essentially zero criminal acts.
Despite completely morally disagreeing with the most extreme examples, it works pretty damn good in North Korea.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26838215 - 07/22/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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explain how you think that effects per capita rates.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26838216 - 07/22/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
You need to quantify how this more punishment = less crime. If it truly worked, we would have super harsh punishments and essentially zero criminal acts.
Despite completely morally disagreeing with the most extreme examples, it works pretty damn good in North Korea.
How do you know that?
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
#26838218 - 07/22/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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And really, we have to get into the nuances of what crime is and is not. For me personally, I'm referring to violence, theft, rape and vandalism almost entirely when I think about crime... not drugs or traffic laws.
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christopera
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
#26838220 - 07/22/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Do you have North Korean crime statistics that you are holding out on?
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26838222 - 07/22/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said:
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You need to quantify how this more punishment = less crime. If it truly worked, we would have super harsh punishments and essentially zero criminal acts.
Despite completely morally disagreeing with the most extreme examples, it works pretty damn good in North Korea.
How do you know that?
Ok fine, I can't "prove" that one. The point I'm making is that totalatarisnism works by using fear to prevent people from doing things they'd regret. It strips us of humanity and I don't agree with it, but it works.
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. We can't expect humans to just be moral creatures on their own.
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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 12:33 PM)
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koods
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa] 2
#26838223 - 07/22/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hold up. Let’s have Vahn tell us what magicmush is really saying. Don’t pay attention to his words. You have to feel his psychic vibrations on the ethereal plane.
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26838228 - 07/22/20 12:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said:
Quote:
koods said: Conversely, Norway has a maximum prison sentence for murder of 21 years (and this sentence is extremely rare) and they have a murder rate 1/10th that of the US
Norway isn't even a 10th of the us population
Yes but per capita we do murder more people.
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ballsalsa
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26838234 - 07/22/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
You need to quantify how this more punishment = less crime. If it truly worked, we would have super harsh punishments and essentially zero criminal acts.
Despite completely morally disagreeing with the most extreme examples, it works pretty damn good in North Korea.
How do you know that?
Ok fine, I can't "prove" that one. The point I'm making is that totalatarisnism works by using fear to prevent people from doing things they'd regret. It strips us of humanity and I don't agree with it, but it works.
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. We can't expect humans to just be moral creatures on their own.
Let's think for a moment about what you are saying here.
1) You can't prove that totalitarianism is effective at reducing crime but you emphatically believe that it "works". On what are you basing this belief?
2) You don't believe that humans can be expected to act morally "on their own." This is perplexing because, for one, there is nobody else around but other humans to enforce morality on the humans who can't be expected to act morally. How can a police state possibly help under these conditions?
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: ballsalsa]
#26838242 - 07/22/20 12:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
1) You can't prove that totalitarianism is effective at reducing crime but you emphatically believe that it "works". On what are you basing this belief?
Totalitarianism is the rule of strict law through high level of fear.
Fear is the #1 easiest way to control people. It's not moral or immoral, it's not just nor unjust, but it's effective. It works on both humans and many animals. It works particularly well against would-be-criminals who don't see morality as a reason to not harm another human. Fear of punishment though, will prevent these types from harming other humans.
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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 12:50 PM)
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
#26838246 - 07/22/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
2) You don't believe that humans can be expected to act morally "on their own." This is perplexing because, for one, there is nobody else around but other humans to enforce morality on the humans who can't be expected to act morally. How can a police state possibly help under these conditions?
I went over this once before. There is no utopia. Our brilliant founding fathers sought to minimize this dilemma by separating our government into 3 branches, of which the police are only one.
One branch has to write the law that determines what police can and can't do and another branch interprets the law to see if what the cops did was just in the first place.
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MadMuncher
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] 2
#26838250 - 07/22/20 12:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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i think a police state can help by provoking masses of people out of complacency and into open revolt.
chasing peaceful protesters around the city park and through the streets, firing projectiles and launching tear gas into the middle of the crowds, detaining and abducting people with no charge or due process. no rights. they were not protecting federal property last night in portland they were just trying to provoke the crowd. seemed like the feds wanted a riot.
"we do this every night"
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MadMuncher]
#26838257 - 07/22/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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i think a police state can help by provoking masses of people out of complacency and into open revolt.
That depends on whether or not the people as a whole think the cops are dealing with people unjustly.
Most taxpayers are annoyed at the rioters, not the cops. I know there are exceptions on this board.
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MagicMush123
moon person



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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
#26838268 - 07/22/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thats because the states is so large and diverse. A lot of states are completely safe and experience relatively low murders while a hand full of states throw the numbers out of whack. 63 people were shot over the weekend in Chicago for fucks sake
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: koods]
#26838273 - 07/22/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Hold up. Let’s have Vahn tell us what magicmush is really saying. Don’t pay attention to his words. You have to feel his psychic vibrations on the ethereal plane.
This is actually really, really funny to hear you say given this is the shroomery. It's as if you think I'm making something up even though what you speak of is completely possible.
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Vahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
#26838277 - 07/22/20 01:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MagicMush123 said: Thats because the states is so large and diverse. A lot of states are completely safe and experience relatively low murders while a hand full of states throw the numbers out of whack. 63 people were shot over the weekend in Chicago for fucks sake
Yes, most of the violence (not all, but most) is concentrated in cities with democratic leadership and democratic populations and is perpetuated by people that don't vote republican.
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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 01:02 PM)
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