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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837857 - 07/22/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
If there's no police, there's no law to enforce.




That's absurd.  You're saying police make the laws?  If not, how does removing the police remove the laws?
Quote:


What do you think comes next? Everyone decides to get in a circle and hold hands?

I'm simply not naive, man.



What I think isn't relevant.  You made the claim many times.  What is it based on other than your a priori opinion?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837865 - 07/22/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't say they make the laws. I said they ENFORCE the laws. There would be no laws to enforce, because the enforcing element would be gone.

And what's the fucking point of a law, even if it exists, if you can't enforce it?


Quote:

What is it based on other than your a priori opinion?





God damn common sense. Something lacking in this forum.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837867 - 07/22/20 09:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:

We are discussing protesting vs rioting.  One is legal and protected by the 1st amendment and the latter waives your 1st amendment right.



Cite a single case in the history of U.S. jurisprudence that finds that one waives his/her first amendment rights by rioting.

Thank you in advance.



Since when is rioting or the incitement of rioting constitutionally protected? Oh wait it never was



I didn't say it was.  You said it waives a person's first amendment rights, though.  Where is your source for this claim?



Its like like how there's free speech but you can't yell bomb in a  airport


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837868 - 07/22/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

now he has to google "a priori".


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837871 - 07/22/20 09:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Police enforce a very, very small percentage of the laws, though.  The vast majority of law is enforced without any police involvement whatsoever.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26837874 - 07/22/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Police enforce a very, very small percentage of the laws, though.  The vast majority of law is enforced without any police involvement whatsoever.





Again, as a lawyer are you really this naive?

We can enforce a law without cops because the threat of it being enforced lingers.

People obey the law out of good faith, but if they knew there'd not be any consequences to breaking the law, why the fuck would they be compelled to obey it?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837875 - 07/22/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

nah, bro, haven't you heard?  thin blue line, something something.  violent criminals, yadda yadda.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26837876 - 07/22/20 10:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Its like like how there's free speech but you can't yell bomb in a  airport



That's not what you said, though.  You said rioting waives a person's 1st amendment rights.

Are you conceding that this is incorrect?  Or are you just going to keep pretending you said something different from what you said?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837882 - 07/22/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Police enforce a very, very small percentage of the laws, though.  The vast majority of law is enforced without any police involvement whatsoever.





Again, as a lawyer are you really this naive?

We can enforce a law without cops because the threat of it being enforced lingers.

People obey the law out of good faith, but if they knew there'd not be any consequences to breaking the law, why the fuck would they be compelled to obey it?



Okay, let me help you understand, because you seem to be totally lost.  Police enforce a portion of the criminal statutes.  That's it.  All of that amounts to maybe 4% of all law in this country.  96% of law has no police enforcement whatsoever.  There's no "threat" of police enforcement of that law.

Also, who said anything about removing consequences?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837889 - 07/22/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Okay fine, you want to talk about "commits crime" rather than those who break the "law?"
mr semantics?

I'm trying to be pragmatic with this idea. I've already made it clear from the beginning that the things the rioters are most guilty of are asron, theft, destruction of public and private property, and so on and so forth.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26837891 - 07/22/20 10:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And the cops are most guilty of murder, kidnapping, false imprisonment, torture, and battery.

What's your point?


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837900 - 07/22/20 10:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Its like like how there's free speech but you can't yell bomb in a  airport



That's not what you said, though.  You said rioting waives a person's 1st amendment rights.

Are you conceding that this is incorrect?  Or are you just going to keep pretending you said something different from what you said?



Because if you are rioting or inciting people to riot you are not acting within your 1st amendment rights. Therefore you do not have the right to assemble. In a riot situation you are not constitutionally protected and effectively waived that right by doing so. Thats at least how i see it. If im wrong can you explain why?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil]
    #26837903 - 07/22/20 10:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We had around 17,000 murders last year in cold blood.

Police shot and killed around 1,000 people last year. MOST of these men were not innocent. We could likely narrow down unjust killings to 100, tops.

17,000 vs 100.

I don't even understand.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26837907 - 07/22/20 10:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Its like like how there's free speech but you can't yell bomb in a  airport



That's not what you said, though.  You said rioting waives a person's 1st amendment rights.

Are you conceding that this is incorrect?  Or are you just going to keep pretending you said something different from what you said?



Because if you are rioting or inciting people to riot you are not acting within your 1st amendment rights. Therefore you do not have the right to assemble. In a riot situation you are not constitutionally protected and effectively waived that right by doing so. Thats at least how i see it. If im wrong can you explain why?




It's ok. Enlil struggles with nuance. (Ironic for a lawyer.)



You keep your first amendment right no matter what, dude. You can be arrested, have cuffs on your hands, be in prison, and no one ball gags you. You forfeit other rights I'm pretty sure, but not your right to free speech.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 10:16 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: MagicMush123]
    #26837908 - 07/22/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

MagicMush123 said:
Its like like how there's free speech but you can't yell bomb in a  airport



That's not what you said, though.  You said rioting waives a person's 1st amendment rights.

Are you conceding that this is incorrect?  Or are you just going to keep pretending you said something different from what you said?



Because if you are rioting or inciting people to riot you are not acting within your 1st amendment rights. Therefore you do not have the right to assemble. In a riot situation you are not constitutionally protected and effectively waived that right by doing so. Thats at least how i see it. If im wrong can you explain why?



Because even when you're rioting, you have a 1st amendment right.  The fact that you're rioting doesn't mean your speech during the riot isn't protected.  Your conduct may not be, but your speech still is.  You haven't waived any right to speak.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26837911 - 07/22/20 10:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Also the other thing I think you're trying to say mr mushy is that rioting DOES NOT fall within your first amendment rights. That is also correct.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26837914 - 07/22/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The fact that you're rioting doesn't mean your speech during the riot isn't protected.  Your conduct may not be, but your speech still is.




Yeah, this.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26837915 - 07/22/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

Police shot and killed around 1,000 people last year. MOST of these men were not innocent.



Police aren't supposed to be killing guilty people either. 

How many people have been shot and killed by Antifa during these riots?


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26837921 - 07/22/20 10:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
We had around 17,000 murders last year in cold blood.

Police shot and killed around 1,000 people last year.




That would be almost 6%
What about police killings not involving a firearm?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Who are the real terrorists? Or are they ALL just terrorists? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26837925 - 07/22/20 10:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Police aren't supposed to be killing guilty people either.




You really ARE a lawyer. You know how to say things with deceptive nuance even though both you and I know what their actual job is. Killing is a last resort, but it's not off the table. You know this. I know this. Let's not pretend it is or isn't anything else.

Quote:

How many people have been shot and killed by Antifa during these riots?




Antifa and the rioters have already been directly or indirectly responsible for the death of more black people than cops have shot in all of 2020. (Arguably 2019 and 2018 combined as well.)

This includes at least one little girl of 8 years old.

So there's your answer.


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