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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: qman]
#26828800 - 07/17/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: The fact that Dore nailed the Russiagate nonsense has people like Brian bent out of shape with him.
The fact of the matter is Dore should have lots of credibility for reporting the real facts on Russiagate and ultimately being proven correct, but some people can't admit they were wrong.
In fact, if people listened closely, CNN, MSNBC and others did admit to just speculating on Russiagate after it all fell apart.
EXACTLY. 
The people that hate Jimmy Dore most are the ones he's proven wrong.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
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Trump has no idea Trump thought he was going to get a Nobel Peace Prize. He got played by a two bit dictator Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
qman said: The fact that Dore nailed the Russiagate nonsense has people like Brian bent out of shape with him.
The fact of the matter is Dore should have lots of credibility for reporting the real facts on Russiagate and ultimately being proven correct, but some people can't admit they were wrong.
In fact, if people listened closely, CNN, MSNBC and others did admit to just speculating on Russiagate after it all fell apart.
EXACTLY. 
The people that hate Jimmy Dore most are the ones he's proven wrong.
His disputing the Russiagate allegations have nothing to do with why I don't like Jimmy Dore, and I have no idea why qman made that up. Russiagate is true in the sense that Russia helped trump get elected. Russiagate is unsubstantiated in the sense there is no good evidence that Trump was in on it.
The reasons I don't like Jimmy Dore are that he reminds me of a carnival huckster, he's a political comedian who I don't think is funny, and his show is so low rent that it reminds me of Wayne's World being shot on a public access channel in Wayne's parent's basement in Aurora Illinois. I asked Fal whether the production values on his show were so low because that helped him establish some kind of noncorporate indy cred, but got no answer.
I also can't stand those three sycophants he has on as his panel. They seem like people who failed auditions to be on the Drew Carrey show.
Jimmy Dore may be more effective at uncovering a more accurate interpretation of political issues than other outlets, but I'm not going to watch him. You all attack Liz Warren for being a former republican but are fine with Dore being a former conspiracy theorist.
I think that Kuklinski guy is OK.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: His disputing the Russiagate allegations have nothing to do with why I don't like Jimmy Dore, and I have no idea why qman made that up.
That was my guess too, given the people he proves wrong seem to dislike him most, and use the word "conspiracy theorist" because like me, he questions things without proof. 
Quote:
Brian Jones said: Russiagate is true in the sense that Russia helped trump get elected. Russiagate is unsubstantiated in the sense there is no good evidence that Trump was in on it.
Did you already forget that the case against the indicted troll farm was dropped after they decided to defend themselves in court?
Edit: I HIGHLY suggest you reread the evidence I included in the O.P. I just linked to.
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Brian Jones said: ...his show is so low rent that it reminds me of Wayne's World being shot on a public access channel in Wayne's parent's basement in Aurora Illinois. I asked Fal whether the production values on his show were so low because that helped him establish some kind of noncorporate indy cred, but got no answer.
It's because he speaks out against the rich billionaires that would give him a high budget show, so they won't give it to him.
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Brian Jones said: I also can't stand those three sycophants he has on as his panel. They seem like people who failed auditions to be on the Drew Carrey show.
The ones who pass the Drew Carrey auditions go make the big bucks with Drew Carrey. The ones he hires are real people who have the same values that me and (I think?) you have. Stef is his wife. I've spoken with all of them in person at his shows, which you can't easily do with the big stars. They're all good people.
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Brian Jones said: Jimmy Dore may be more effective at uncovering a more accurate interpretation of political issues than other outlets, but I'm not going to watch him. You all attack Liz Warren for being a former republican but are fine with Dore being a former conspiracy theorist.
He wasn't a "former conspiracy theorist" unless you believe the fake news.
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Brian Jones said: I think that Kuklinski guy is OK.
Kyle Kulinski is great! 
He and Jimmy Dore talk about the same shit.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/17/20 07:25 PM)
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Brian Jones
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: qman]
#26830101 - 07/18/20 02:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: Trump has been a failure with trade. The statistics tell the truth.
https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-china-trade-deficit-causes-effects-and-solutions-3306277
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade
The trade deficit has been a fucking disaster. It INCREASED under Trump!!! 
A good sized portion of out trade imbalance is, I think, unavoidable. In many cases we can't compete in manufacturing with low wage countries. Our service base economy does not lend itself to exports to the same extent that manufacturing does. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing that our trade imbalance has a high correlation with our transition to a service economy over the last four or so decades.
But yes, Trump's trade war with China hurt us more than it hurt them.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Brian Jones
Club 27



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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Brian Jones said: His disputing the Russiagate allegations have nothing to do with why I don't like Jimmy Dore, and I have no idea why qman made that up.
That was my guess too, given the people he proves wrong seem to dislike him most, and use the word "conspiracy theorist" because like me, he questions things without proof. 
Quote:
Brian Jones said: Russiagate is true in the sense that Russia helped trump get elected. Russiagate is unsubstantiated in the sense there is no good evidence that Trump was in on it.
Did you already forget that the case against the indicted troll farm was dropped after they decided to defend themselves in court?
Edit: I HIGHLY suggest you reread the evidence I included in the O.P. I just linked to.
Quote:
Brian Jones said: ...his show is so low rent that it reminds me of Wayne's World being shot on a public access channel in Wayne's parent's basement in Aurora Illinois. I asked Fal whether the production values on his show were so low because that helped him establish some kind of noncorporate indy cred, but got no answer.
It's because he speaks out against the rich billionaires that would give him a high budget show, so they won't give it to him.
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Brian Jones said: I also can't stand those three sycophants he has on as his panel. They seem like people who failed auditions to be on the Drew Carrey show.
The ones who pass the Drew Carrey auditions go make the big bucks with Drew Carrey. The ones he hires are real people who have the same values that me and (I think?) you have. Stef is his wife. I've spoken with all of them in person at his shows, which you can't easily do with the big stars. They're all good people.
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Brian Jones said: Jimmy Dore may be more effective at uncovering a more accurate interpretation of political issues than other outlets, but I'm not going to watch him. You all attack Liz Warren for being a former republican but are fine with Dore being a former conspiracy theorist.
He wasn't a "former conspiracy theorist" unless you believe the fake news.
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Brian Jones said: I think that Kuklinski guy is OK.
1. Jimmy Dore was a former conspiracy theorist. IMO people who listen to him are getting into his conspiracy mind frame, and now think everything else is fake news.
2. That Russia interfered in the 2016 election in Trump's favor is an accepted fact, by analysts, journalists, Democrats and Republicans. To assume that all these parties are in on some conspiracy reminds me of McCarthyism and believing there was a communist hiding under every rock.
3. I don't like Jimmy Dore because I think he is a really bad entertainer and I don't like his personality. That's it. I'm not even disputing that he might be good at accuracy, now. Other people think he is and I'm willing, to some extent, to take their word for it. For people to attribute that my motives for not liking him has something to do with his content is absurd. I believe I have watched him about 4 times for a total of 8-10 minutes.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: That Russia interfered in the 2016 election in Trump's favor is an accepted fact, by analysts, journalists, Democrats and Republicans. To assume that all these parties are in on some conspiracy reminds me of McCarthyism and believing there was a communist hiding under every rock.
This actually reminds me a lot more of WMDs in Iraq. I correctly predicted they wouldn't find any.
I remember everyone saying Trump colluding with Russia was an accepted fact. Until the Mueller report couldn't find anything to back it up. Then it was said that Russia interfering in our election was accepted fact, until Concord went to court to defend themselves, and the charges were dropped.
I was so confident this was fake before it was dropped, I made a signature bet that Concord would either win the case or the charges would be dropped. I won.
How did I know? I summarized it here, but I'm not sure you read the whole thing.
Do you have evidence they interfered in the election, or just blind faith in our Government, who always pushes for war?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Brian Jones
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I don't see any connection between a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee's report that Russia interfered in the 2016 election in Trump's favor, and your statement about our government always pushing for war.
Are you suggesting we are pushing for a war with Russia?
We just moved several warships into the Sea of China. This did not happen without Trump's OK. All I am seeing is a desperate man making a desperate election ploy, with no regard for any other consequences. He can't STFU about it being a Chinese virus. He thinks some sabre rattling there will gain him some votes.
-------------------- "The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body" John Lennon I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either. The worst thing about corruption is that it works so well,
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Enlil
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you have evidence they interfered in the election, or just blind faith in our Government, who always pushes for war?
As we've gone over many times before, there are two pending criminal cases related tot his. There isn't going to be a public release of evidence until those cases are resolved.
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qman
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Quote:
Brian Jones said:
Quote:
qman said: Trump has been a failure with trade. The statistics tell the truth.
https://www.thebalance.com/u-s-china-trade-deficit-causes-effects-and-solutions-3306277
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/balance-of-trade
The trade deficit has been a fucking disaster. It INCREASED under Trump!!! 
A good sized portion of out trade imbalance is, I think, unavoidable. In many cases we can't compete in manufacturing with low wage countries. Our service base economy does not lend itself to exports to the same extent that manufacturing does. I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing that our trade imbalance has a high correlation with our transition to a service economy over the last four or so decades.
But yes, Trump's trade war with China hurt us more than it hurt them.
There wasn't any "trade war" to begin with in my opinion. The trade imbalance is also avoidable, it's just a matter of doing what's needed. BTW, Trump's little tariffs were just a big joke, anyone could see it was just a headline policy and nothing of real economic substance.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
#26830791 - 07/18/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Do you have evidence they interfered in the election, or just blind faith in our Government
As we've gone over many times before, there are two pending criminal cases related tot his. There isn't going to be a public release of evidence until those cases are resolved.
Yes we have, and I'll summarize those discussion for those who are new here (PLEASE feel free to add any relevant facts I may have missed):
The first criminal case was against the 'troll farm' (Concord). This case was never intended to go to court, and when it did I made a signature bet that Concord would either win or the case would be dropped. It was dropped.
Your rebuttal was something along the lines of "but there were also charges against some of the employees of Concord which are still open!" So? If the parent got off, that pretty much vindicates their employees. I know you would make this argument if our positions were reversed, and anyone with common sense would too, but you're too stubborn to admit you were wrong.
The second criminal case was against the people who allegedly hacked the DNC email. Though this has been disputed, I'm willing (for the sake of argument) to agree they hacked the server. Now the question is, who leaked the information to Wikileaks? There is a lot of evidence showing it wasn't Russia.
What evidence is there that it WAS Russia other than "you just gotta believe what we're told"? Oh ya, "It's a SECRET Fal! You just GOTTA believe the Government!"
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
Brian Jones said: I don't see any connection between a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee's report that Russia interfered in the 2016 election in Trump's favor, and your statement about our government always pushing for war.
Are you suggesting we are pushing for a war with Russia?
Maybe war was was the wrong term with Russia; I should have said conflict/hostility.
Even if you don't see the connection, just ignore that and let's look at the evidence for this case. Oh ya, there was none so they dropped the charges. But I'd love to talk about it and see if you have anything other than "I believe whatever I'm told by my Government".
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/18/20 02:12 PM)
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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How do you know it was never intended to go to court? Why did it?
The case wasn't dropped.
The employees haven't been vindicated. Your argument for vindication is based on an unsupported hypothesis that Concord charges were dropped because of a lack of evidence, which is contradicted by the very motion seeking those charges to be dropped
The second case is against Russian agents.
Other than the above, you're pretty close to accurate. They won't be making evidence public during a prosecution. That's standard procedure.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
#26830864 - 07/18/20 02:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Enlil said: How do you know it was never intended to go to court?
Were you expecting Russians to fly to America to face Trial where they would be subject to arrest and confinement? 
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Enlil said: Why did it (go to court)?
Because the parent (Concord) knew it was bullshit and volunteered to defend themselves in court. The Motion To Dismiss even says "On April 11, 2018, Concord voluntarily entered an appearance in this case".
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Enlil said: The case wasn't dropped.
Is "dismissed" the correct word? It was clearly dismissed. When you can't win an argument, you always go for a semantics victory.
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Enlil said: The employees haven't been vindicated.
Not legally, but if the case against the parent was dropped - oops I mean "dismissed", it should be pretty clear to all but the most stubborn that they got nothing on the Concord employees either, who we know will never show up in court.
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Enlil said: The second case is against Russian agents.
Other than the above, you're pretty close to accurate. They won't be making evidence public during a prosecution. That's standard procedure.
The Government 'leaks' evidence when they have nothing, in order to give the people something to believe in. Do you remember the Mueller Report? It contained nothing that everyone didn't already know from the leaks.
Again, I have evidence it likely wasn't Russia, you continue to have blind faith in your Government that THIS time, they're not lying to you.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
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So, if a defendant runs, we should just throw in the towel?
The case wasn't dismissed either.
They clearly explained why they dismissed Concord. A corporation can't be put in jail, and there's no way to enforce a fine in this case. At the same time, prosecuting the corporation would have given the fugitive defendants a sneak peak at the case. There's no upside and all downside to that. We've covered this.
If there is so much exculpatory evidence why don't the defendants come to court and prove their innocence?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Vahn421
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
#26830901 - 07/18/20 02:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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When you can't win an argument, you always go for a semantics victory.
LMAO! Man, I'm so used to that around here already. I wish my opposition could read my INTENT more often rather than trying to trap me in my words when I use one that isn't quite right. (No one is perfect.) I never use such dishonest methods when engaging my opposition, because when I find out that they MEANT to say one thing rather than another, I go, "Ok cool THAT'S what you meant" rather than, "See? You clearly don't know what you're talking about." or the classic, "Why did you lie?"
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Edited by Vahn421 (07/18/20 02:32 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
#26830916 - 07/18/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Enlil said: So, if a defendant runs, we should just throw in the towel?
No one ran. It was the opposite. Concord voluntarily entered an appearance.
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Enlil said: The case wasn't dismissed either.
They clearly explained why they dismissed Concord.
Did you just contradict yourself?
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Enlil said: A corporation can't be put in jail, and there's no way to enforce a fine in this case. At the same time, prosecuting the corporation would have given the fugitive defendants a sneak peak at the case. There's no upside and all downside to that. We've covered this.
So you seriously expect the Russians to show up in a US court?!?
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Enlil said: If there is so much exculpatory evidence why don't the defendants come to court and prove their innocence?
Why wouldn't they pay tens of thousands to risk arrest and confinement in the United States? Hmmmm...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Vahn421]
#26830919 - 07/18/20 02:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
When you can't win an argument, you always go for a semantics victory.
LMAO! Man, I'm so used to that around here already. I wish my opposition could read my INTENT more often rather than trying to trap me in my words when I use one that isn't quite right. (No one is perfect.) I never use such dishonest methods when engaging my opposition, because when I find out that they MEANT to say one thing rather than another, I go, "Ok cool THAT'S what you meant" rather than, "See? You clearly don't know what you're talking about." or the classic, "Why did you lie?" 
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,800
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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I didn't contradict myself. The case wasn't dismissed. Charges against one defendant were. Most of the original case is still pending.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
#26830936 - 07/18/20 02:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Charges against the parent company were dismissed, with the US knowing the Russians would never show up in court later.
Why didn't they dismiss the charges against Concord years ago when Concord voluntarily entered an appearance?
Probably to trick the gullible, hoping people wouldn't notice the dismissal years later. It wasn't big new anywhere except alternative news.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Given that the Government knew the other Russian defendants would never show up in court, the US should have gone all in on Concord when they had a chance to prove themselves right about SOMETHING Russia related. To say they were hiding the evidence for a later trial that everyone knows will never happen is absurd.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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