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OfflineTotodile386
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The Organic Flour Thread
    #26828768 - 07/17/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I wish to remind everyone that we must be green, ecologically-friendly, and sustainable, right?

Well, of course you are, but the sad fact of reality is that our mushrooms' food (not to mention that of most people) is not.

How is this? Well, we live in a society in which all food that was grown without the evil of pesticides has to be labelled so, like "pesticide-free" or "organic", the latter being significantly more common, at least that I've seen.

Solution??

I recall reading a post about people successfully growing mushrooms with different kinds of grow media, one of which was regular wheat flour! And here, we can clearly buy massive amounts of ORGANIC wheat flour for a reasonable price:

https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=organic+flour&ref=nb_sb_noss_1

This is basically a reboot of an earlier thread, although more discussion should be welcomed.

You can also talk about conventional, pesticide-laden alternative flours if you want.

Comments like "ugh organic costs like 10% more for no reason at all" or "go to hell vegan" will be ignored.

However, we can also talk about the obvious benefits of organic and pesticide-free farming, and what's potentially wrong with them.

For example:

Organic farming isn't always greener than simple pesticide-free farming.
How so?
Because the main difference between organic and just pesticide-free is that organic farming requires the use of some kind of compost, forbidding the use of synthetic fertilizers to fertilize the plants.
Compost isn't always clean, in fact. Compost can be McDonald's pig manure and chicken byproducts, or Burger King waste. Synthetic fertilizer isn't always bad. That said, compost can be greener than synthetic fertilizer because compost diverts humus from landfills and adds more to the land.

P.S. I encourage considering replacing vermiculate with organic coco coir in grow substrates.

-- If you haven't learned what coco coir is, now's the time!



Edited by Totodile386 (07/17/20 11:34 AM)


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26828860 - 07/17/20 12:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You can take buy some organic rice, and then bury it in your yard. Then come back 6 months later and get all the rice your mushrooms will ever need. As organic as you want it.

And as for the compost, that can be,  and is by a wise farmer, produced on site. All you need is extra land. Rotate field/ pasture and the cows will take care of it, and you will have cows as well. Idk how often that actually happens. Farmers don't exactly control their own business often times.

But, regardless of where it comes from its better than chemicals. Even if it's rotten mcdonalds cow shit, it's still organic matter. It's still composted shit, and it's still hummus. Obviously not what I would want. But it's better than using more chemicals, we incorporate it into the system. It might have been petroleum at one point, but now it's food


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Soccrates]
    #26828865 - 07/17/20 12:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Soccrates said:
You can take buy some organic rice, and then bury it in your yard. Then come back 6 months later and get all the rice your mushrooms will ever need. As organic as you want it.

And as for the compost, that can be,  and is by a wise farmer, produced on site. All you need is extra land. Rotate field/ pasture and the cows will take care of it, and you will have cows as well. Idk how often that actually happens. Farmers don't exactly control their own business often times.

But, regardless of where it comes from its better than chemicals. Even if it's rotten mcdonalds cow shit, it's still organic matter. It's still composted shit, and it's still hummus. Obviously not what I would want. But it's better than using more chemicals, we incorporate it into the system. It might have been petroleum at one point, but now it's food




I feel like people still have the vague sentiment of "chemicals automatically make it no good", even though many chemicals that make up our world, and we take in every day are as good as any fruit, sometimes better.

Just one more point I'd like to express, that using cows is a nice concept in theory, but in reality, using cows on the farm is getting obsolete fast thanks to the rise of veganism.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26828881 - 07/17/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Mushrooms are decomposers, organic or not organic makes zero difference to them. They won’t eat or bio accumulate pesticides. However many organic grain products are treated with huge quantities of Bacillus thuringiensis. Those are endospore producing bacteria that are used as pesticides due to the cry toxins they excrete during endospore formation. I would rather have pesticides in my grain than those fuckers.


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26828908 - 07/17/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Mushrooms are decomposers, organic or not organic makes zero difference to them. They won’t eat or bio accumulate pesticides. However many organic grain products are treated with huge quantities of Bacillus thuringiensis. Those are endospore producing bacteria that are used as pesticides due to the cry toxins they excrete during endospore formation. I would rather have pesticides in my grain than those fuckers.




I just want to express that organic, at this point, is much more about life and the environment than getting sick or not from just chemicals, alone.


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386] * 1
    #26828923 - 07/17/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Growing your own food would be in closer alignment to those ideals. Organic food is often just as laden with undesirable chemicals/organisms as non organic. It’s a label and a cash grab. Some things I would shop organic but not grain. Do research, just because some bureaucrats got paid and gave permission to call something “safe” doesn’t mean it is.

My greatest fails in the hobby came while I was using organic grain.


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26828930 - 07/17/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Growing your own food would be in closer alignment to those ideals. Organic food is often just as laden with undesirable chemicals/organisms as non organic. It’s a label and a cash grab. Some things I would shop organic but not grain. Do research, just because some bureaucrats got paid and gave permission to call something “safe” doesn’t mean it is.




Way ahead of you. I rarely just go about blindly buy "organic" just because it says, unless I just want to humor them. I pretty much only buy from organic brands that are supposed to be "real quality", like co-op stuff.

Ah, running a farm for a living sounds spectacular to me, truthfully, but it's not within my grasp.


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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386] * 1
    #26828945 - 07/17/20 12:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well if this thread is about using organic grain as having an advantage over non organic in regards to mushroom cultivation, I’m going to suggest at best it offers zero advantage and at worse can harbour higher CFU populations.

If this thread is about eating organic and the care of the planet etc, it is off topic for this board. I can move it for you to a more appropriate location if you like. Otherwise I’m going to lock it if it gets too off topic.


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26828961 - 07/17/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Totodile386 said:
Quote:

Soccrates said:
You can take buy some organic rice, and then bury it in your yard. Then come back 6 months later and get all the rice your mushrooms will ever need. As organic as you want it.

And as for the compost, that can be,  and is by a wise farmer, produced on site. All you need is extra land. Rotate field/ pasture and the cows will take care of it, and you will have cows as well. Idk how often that actually happens. Farmers don't exactly control their own business often times.

But, regardless of where it comes from its better than chemicals. Even if it's rotten mcdonalds cow shit, it's still organic matter. It's still composted shit, and it's still hummus. Obviously not what I would want. But it's better than using more chemicals, we incorporate it into the system. It might have been petroleum at one point, but now it's food




I feel like people still have the vague sentiment of "chemicals automatically make it no good", even though many chemicals that make up our world, and we take in every day are as good as any fruit, sometimes better.

Just one more point I'd like to express, that using cows is a nice concept in theory, but in reality, using cows on the farm is getting obsolete fast thanks to the rise of veganism.




No chemicals aren't bad. Everything is made of chemicals. That's not the problem. The thing is you are thinking to much. Chemicals, in common parlance is not meant in the strict sense. We are referring to synthetically derived chemicals here.

But regardless of their origin, any substance used en masse, and introduced to ecosystems in which it was not present for evolution, is obviously not going to be good for the ecosystem. It seriously disturbs a balance which took millennia to create and the cascade effects, as we are seeing are legion.

But, yeah chemicals= fertilizer derived from petroleum, engineered pesticides- also derived from petroleum, and the beloved herbicides... those require genetically modified crops, doesn't seem like we understand the implications of DNA to just be rewriting it


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26828966 - 07/17/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Well if this thread is about using organic grain as having an advantage over non organic in regards to mushroom cultivation, I’m going to suggest at best it offers zero advantage and at worse can harbour higher CFU populations.

If this thread is about eating organic and the care of the planet etc, it is off topic for this board. I can move it for you to a more appropriate location if you like. Otherwise I’m going to lock it if it gets too off topic.




Whoa! Whoa, whoa, whoa. Them's be fightin' words. Didn't I say we can discuss organic a bit here? What in the world is a thread with this narrow context urethra? How can be made relevant to anything again?

Here, I want you to show me or elaborate to me where you drew the hypothesis that organic flours are more prone to infection.

Right now, I already believe this position is not sound -- after all, even if grain were teeming with bacteria, it gets boiled.


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26828970 - 07/17/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Well if this thread is about using organic grain as having an advantage over non organic in regards to mushroom cultivation, I’m going to suggest at best it offers zero advantage and at worse can harbour higher CFU populations.

If this thread is about eating organic and the care of the planet etc, it is off topic for this board. I can move it for you to a more appropriate location if you like. Otherwise I’m going to lock it if it gets too off topic.




We did get a little off topic. Oops.


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Soccrates]
    #26828973 - 07/17/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Soccrates said:
those require genetically modified crops, doesn't seem like we understand the implications of DNA to just be rewriting it




Let me be the first to give the benefit of the doubt that editing genes, alone, is not automatically bad, per se.

-- Yet, you're partway right, I say: the reason that people are editing genes is more detestable than the notion, alone.


Edited by Totodile386 (07/17/20 01:11 PM)


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26828989 - 07/17/20 01:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Totodile386 said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Well if this thread is about using organic grain as having an advantage over non organic in regards to mushroom cultivation, I’m going to suggest at best it offers zero advantage and at worse can harbour higher CFU populations.

If this thread is about eating organic and the care of the planet etc, it is off topic for this board. I can move it for you to a more appropriate location if you like. Otherwise I’m going to lock it if it gets too off topic.




Whoa! Whoa, whoa, whoa. Them's be fightin' words. Didn't I say we can discuss organic a bit here? What in the world is a thread with this narrow context urethra? How can be made relevant to anything again?

Here, I want you to show me or elaborate to me where you drew the hypothesis that organic flours are more prone to infection.

Right now, I already believe this position is not sound -- after all, even if grain were teeming with bacteria, it gets boiled.




Well, organic farming aims to harbor as much bacteria as possible whereas conventional farming pretty much kills everything but the crop.

Grains grown in a field teeming with bacteria, vs one that is sanitized by poison. Makes sense.
Quote:

Totodile386 said:
Quote:

Soccrates said:
those require genetically modified crops, doesn't seem like we understand the implications of DNA to just be rewriting it




Let me be the first to give the benefit of the doubt that editing genes, alone, is not automatically bad, per se.

-- Yet, you're partway right, I say: the reason that people are editing genes is more detestable than the notion, alone.





Editing genes isn't necessarily bad, more so the intentions. Yes. But, like I said, not a good idea. It's awfully arrogant to think we understand it.

But now they have terminator technology. That means that the plants produce sterile seed. And it's been demonstrated to affect plants in neighboring areas. Effectively sterilizing the earth. Potentially. Probably won't make it that far but, it didn't sound wise


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Soccrates]
    #26829013 - 07/17/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sterilize the Earth? Goodness, gracious!

Anyway, yeah, soil bacteria and fungi are beneficial life forms, by and large. Who knows what unstudied benefits growing mushrooms outdoors might have?

That said, I doubt soil bacteria would compete, substantially anyway, against inoculated mushrooms. And again, even so, boiling/heating the grow substrate prior to using it, as is standard practice, would surely disinfect it, not that there's reason to believe a whole lot of aggressive foreign soil bacteria make it into consumer flours, in any case.

I mean, people grow mushrooms outdoors and in poorly disinfected conditions without always having problems. Who knows what we might be missing out on, stressing ourselves on sterilization all the time?


Edited by Totodile386 (07/17/20 01:26 PM)


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26829024 - 07/17/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I meant to say sanitize. I was being dramatic either way. Endospores can survive the pc. Idk personally that organic is more likely contaminated.


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OfflineTotodile386
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Soccrates]
    #26829040 - 07/17/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Soccrates said:
I meant to say sanitize. I was being dramatic either way. Endospores can survive the pc. Idk personally that organic is more likely contaminated.




I'd rather take the minuscule chance that organic flour could contain alien spores than keep buying the same old Monsanto crap. At the very least, if aliens appear in my mycelia, maybe it's a sign from God -- or if I don't feel compelled to try again, I can turn the flour into organic vegan phyllo or pita bread. But again, I don't think so.


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26829048 - 07/17/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It is the same thought process that got us here in the first place huh?


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Totodile386]
    #26829104 - 07/17/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Totodile386 said:
Quote:

Soccrates said:
I meant to say sanitize. I was being dramatic either way. Endospores can survive the pc. Idk personally that organic is more likely contaminated.




I'd rather take the minuscule chance that organic flour could contain alien spores than keep buying the same old Monsanto crap. At the very least, if aliens appear in my mycelia, maybe it's a sign from God -- or if I don't feel compelled to try again, I can turn the flour into organic vegan phyllo or pita bread. But again, I don't think so.




Sorry but this is just ignorant. Monsanto grain will not impede or harm the mushrooms nor could any harm come to a human from eating the fruits. Mushrooms are decomposers; they break down their food before they eat it. They only eat what they need, Nothing else is absorbed. Reducing vectors is critical. I wouldn’t use organic grain unless I grew it myself or had a talk with the farmer who grew it. I did buy 1000 lbs of organic rye and 900 lbs of organic wheat directly from a farmer once. But he wasn’t using Bacillus so I was good with it.

It’s your grow. Infuse it with as much good intentions as you like. They make no difference. One thing is sure, Monsanto will be in business regardless of what I grow with.


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OfflineGastronomicus
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26829255 - 07/17/20 03:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I like to mix pesticides INTO my flour before I use it. Gives the mushies some extra kick  :toomuchacid:


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OfflineSoccrates
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Re: The Organic Flour Thread [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26830099 - 07/18/20 02:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

Totodile386 said:
Quote:

Soccrates said:
I meant to say sanitize. I was being dramatic either way. Endospores can survive the pc. Idk personally that organic is more likely contaminated.




I'd rather take the minuscule chance that organic flour could contain alien spores than keep buying the same old Monsanto crap. At the very least, if aliens appear in my mycelia, maybe it's a sign from God -- or if I don't feel compelled to try again, I can turn the flour into organic vegan phyllo or pita bread. But again, I don't think so.




Sorry but this is just ignorant. Monsanto grain will not impede or harm the mushrooms nor could any harm come to a human from eating the fruits. Mushrooms are decomposers; they break down their food before they eat it. They only eat what they need, Nothing else is absorbed. Reducing vectors is critical. I wouldn’t use organic grain unless I grew it myself or had a talk with the farmer who grew it. I did buy 1000 lbs of organic rye and 900 lbs of organic wheat directly from a farmer once. But he wasn’t using Bacillus so I was good with it.

It’s your grow. Infuse it with as much good intentions as you like. They make no difference. One thing is sure, Monsanto will be in business regardless of what I grow with.




Well, yeah. Mushrooms would be the best thing to feed Monsanto grain. Sure try to avoid feeding it to people whenever possible. And yeah unfortunately, Monsanto will be in business until they kill us all. Because ignorance abounds in the world today, people will continue to sell out the world a few cents at a time.

Tl,dr- you're right, but still fuck Monsanto and all they stand for and all who stand for them


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