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OfflineDancingWolf
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Lets talk systemic fungicides
    #26822105 - 07/13/20 11:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I know, I know, you evil person, you want to use systemics on your Trichocereus, bad cactus grower! BAD!



It's the middle of summer and black rot is in full swing. Spots keep showing up on the occasional graft and the total I have isolated now is around 10-12+ plants. I have done full submersion drenches on them in Thiomyl (system fungicide for ornamentals) and hit them with Chlorothalonil, which is a very nasty, nuclear option, fungicide (non systemic). It leaves some very nasty stuff behind in the environment and I don't like using it. Obviously the plants that visibly show these diseases don't get to go to market, nor do Trichocereus that have Thiomyl applied to them until after they are large enough to take cuttings from in several years. I include kelp fertilizer when applying the systemics so the plants are more receptive to uptaking it.

I don't want these black spots or whatever the other disease is from being spread around to other people's collections. Kind of like how it was sent to me, with what appeared to be a healthy cutting that quickly went into meltdown when I tried to plant it when I had never had this disease before. Obviously it can never be gotten rid of entirely, but I want it minimized.

The diseases aren't just cosmetic, the plants slow down significantly or outright stop growing when the infection is active. De-grafting healthy plants right now runs the risk of the scion breaking out in spots, as several de-grafted specimens did.



Several of these healthy scions became horribly covered in the diseases shortly after being de-grafted. The sore on the big one was long since healed and dried over but I dusted it with sulfur anyway. Plants that were near its location are also turning up with spots. Once the disease got a chance to destroy the plant, it broke out all over. Plants with healed sores are still contagious.

Now this brings me to the taboo of which systemics to use to combat black and brown rot spots. If it were any other ornamental I would reach for the Thiomyl, or Propiconazole, etc, but there are a lot of people that decide to violate the law and eat these plants and I would rather they not eat something that could be harmful. It says ornamentals only for a reason and while I doubt someone will become sick from eating a plant that was treated with an ornamental systemic fungicide, Id rather look for something that is for agricultural use. I'm using Thiomyl on just about all of my non-Trichocereus cactus now to try and curb infection of other plants by having fewer plants can be infected. Black spot affects domino cactus as well, just one instance of where it can be prevented.

I'm searching for a food grade, broad-spectrum, systemic fungicide for the Trichos, something I can get off the shelf without more licensing, fees, etc. If you happen to know of something, I would very much like to hear it. I don't want to spray Chlorothalonil everywhere because of how toxic that is to the environment, not to mention it can blind me if I get it in my eyes. (I wear lab goggles.)

Before someone says just put your plants in more sun, I'm in the deep south and the sun is murder for plants right now. There is a high pressure bubble and its spiking the temperatures over 100+. Even the fully acclimated plants that are in the ground can barely keep up with repairing the daily damage. My graft collection is in direct sun for 6+ hours daily before getting partial shade and their skin is shriveled up from being cooked. Can't put them in the sun, nor can I put them in the shade, both have their problems, unless I can outright forbid infection in the first place, then the shade will work. Several plants developed black spots even when dry, inside my greenhouse, under 40% shade cloth at the 12 position, extending to the 10 and 2. If this mess can infect my plants even when I do everything right, something has to give.


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OfflineGreenHorns
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26822283 - 07/14/20 02:52 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Dang dude the south must be a rough spot to grow cacti. In lieu of sunlight to oxidize and kill off the fungus you may want to look at soil amendments that act like desiccants. Diatomaceous earth, dolomite lime for instance. And add citrus peel which is naturally an antifungal just mind your soil pH.


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InvisibleGrey Fox

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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: GreenHorns]
    #26822541 - 07/14/20 08:52 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Sorry to hear about this problem getting so bad in your collection Dancing Wolf.  The Gulf Coast climate is tough for cacti with all the rain and humidity.  Are you able to grow the cacti somewhere that they will be sheltered from the rain so that you have more control over how wet the soil stays in their containers?  Maybe underneath an overhang or some other structure?  Greenhouse might be too hot for them in the summer, and also doesnt have great airflow.

Withholding water is the first step in bringing rot under control.  If the soil dries out then the rot should heal itself and go away over time.

Taking cuttings during humid or rainy weather can cause rot to break out on both the cutting and the mother plant.

Rot is the biggest challenge with growing cacti but it is controllable through natural means.  The best way is to stop watering a cactus until the rot heals and not cutting the cactus when the weather is humid or rainy.  That way you dont need fungicide.

But it also means that you cant push for maximum growth under all weather conditions.  Sometimes the cacti need to dry out and be thirsty for awhile.  In the short term it does mean less potential growth.  But in the long term the cacti are healthier.

Anyway I'm sure you already know all this and have tried it.  But I thought I would add my 2 cents just in case it might help you.  All the best with your cacti.


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: Grey Fox]
    #26822856 - 07/14/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Diatomaceous earth will help the soil hold more water, I do add some to my dirt when I mix it up, along with gypsum. Several plants have contracted spots while inside a high tunnel which sees very little water this time of the year and no rain. It has an open side, back window, and a small fan blowing to circulate the air. It also hasn't rained in a month.

The plants burn up in the sunlight if they aren't watered, literally burning in a single day on the side that faces the sun. I have a few with permanent scarring from the skin being cooked. I had them in shade for a while but that just makes for more favorable rot conditions. There is no choice but to keep the grafts watered every other day if I want them to survive the summer. They get several hours of direct sunlight though, about as much as they can handle without burning.

I wouldn't describe it as getting bad since its about about 10-12 grafts out of around 100 that are still here. I'm fortunate that it has been a dry heat so water doesn't linger on plants. There is very little growth since the temperature is well above the ideal for photosynthesis. The plants that are growing are my big trichos that are in 10-20 gallon pots.

If natural methods worked, everyone would use them and plants wouldn't get sick. This is why I'm looking for an agricultural grade systemic that I can get off the shelf, because natural methods have failed me. I just installed another shade cloth to the side of the high tunnel, so I may move everything back inside to see if that improves the matter; having more time in the sunlight but less direct light.


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InvisibleEl Torcho
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26822901 - 07/14/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Do you use fabric pots?

Are they all de-grafts, which are showing signs?


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: El Torcho]
    #26823153 - 07/14/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I use fabric pots on most of my larger plants. (root pouch). One of the plants in those showed spots. It's mostly a mix of grafts and de-grafts that show spots.


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Offlinethe man
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26825207 - 07/15/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

cacti come from very hot places with extreme sun. the reason they are burning is likely because they havent been "climatized" or caloused properly.  ie when grow cacti fast and keep them wetter they not only produce les alkaloids they are bloated as some say and not hardened off. could try and get them accustom to dryer hotter conditions. lighter or larger pots keeping the roots a bit cooler. but the best is likely to let the calous and waxy tissues thicken which more or less means not allowing them to grow as fast.. for example if you take a peyote grown in a greenhouse or window sill and then put it out in direct sun no matter where on earth it will become damaged. but can grow in wild in full harsh sun more or less and survive.

you could try shade cloth that will help keep a little rain off aswell if set up right.  slowly expose them to harsher conditions over several weeks if not a month or 2.


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: the man]
    #26825661 - 07/15/20 05:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Only desert cactus come from hot dry places and even then, they are usually under the protection of a large shrub. Trichocereus come from the regions around Peru and Ecuador; it's more temperate than the climate of Mexico and sees more rain. My plants are grown in full sun until they can't take the sunlight anymore, then they have to go into the shade. Potted plants can't take as much as in-ground plants because the roots get hot and even my in-ground Trichocereus are hurting. It's not cost effective to use a giant pot for every plant 5.5" pots (green) are a fair size.

The plants you might find growing in full sun the wild, regarding peyote, are plants that grew under a shrub and the shrub long since died. I have shade cloth, I have plastic over a hoop house, I have plants under it, and some of those plants still got sick. It hasn't rained in a month here, see previous posts.

It seems to be clear that no one has any systemics to vouch for, so I'll just have to roll for damage.


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InvisibleEl Torcho
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26825759 - 07/15/20 06:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If it's all grafts and de-grafts wouldn't that make you think it's maybe that process that has something to do with it?


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: El Torcho]
    #26825869 - 07/15/20 07:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Its not all grafts and degrafts, plants in fabric pots have spots as well, plants that have been inside a greenhouse nearly their entire lives. I have around 10 grafts to one rooted plant, so naturally there will be more infected grafts.

I was hoping someone knew of a suitable systemic for Trichocereus; yet I only seem to be getting the same canned information that I've already read countless times via the search bar. If moving the plants around, adding calcium, magnesium, changing methods, or letting the plants burn up in the worked (It was 105 again today), I think I would have noticed it working and I wouldn't have any sick plants. The fact that plants inside a greenhouse that rarely see water, planted in fabric pots under 30% shade cloth so they don't burn, growing in essentially the anti-conditions of rot, etc, are still getting sick tells me that there is only so much prevention environmental conditions can provide.

The 80/20 rule seems to apply here in that a good environment, (insert anything really), will fix 80% of the problem but you will still have a problem and if you want it fixed entirely, you need to get the last 20%. In my case, it's spending just a little bit of money on a preventive fungicide. If no one has information on one, a thread on one, first hand experience with one, or can vouch for one, then there is nothing further to be said and I shall move on with life.


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OfflineGreenHorns
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26826203 - 07/16/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If you want systemic I can recommend terragaurd. I have used in the past (once) on cannabis but fungus is fungus more often than not and this is a broad range systemic fungicide. It will live in the cell walls of your cacti and pass on to cutting, scions and probably even root stock for who knows how long. It works but I would still advise a desiccant in the soil or perlite to allow for airation as I can only assume the humidity in your area will be all the watering your cacti may need for most of the year. Sorry I didn't quite keep up with the conversation did you determine the exact fungus your dealing with and if it's airborne native spores or something your soil has been contaminated with?


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InvisibleEl Torcho
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: GreenHorns]
    #26826334 - 07/16/20 04:42 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry for the "canned response" in trying to help.

Maybe ask the guy at Tractor Supply who happens to be near the gardening section what his opinion is? Maybe also ask his opinion on mixing a quality soil, so you can prevent this instead of treat it? Also, ask him how greenhouses help during the summer? Maybe ask him for a thermometer so you can see how much hotter inside a greenhouse it is, opposed to the outside air and ask yourself "why would I keep plants inside a greenhouse in summer when it's 100°F+ out in the open"?


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
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Offlineturtle_hermit
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: El Torcho]
    #26826502 - 07/16/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am located in the Gulf Coast and have similar issues with Trichocereus in the summer time, but my response is less drastic.
I keep my plants in a covered greenhouse with 50% shade cloth that is open on the sides with good airflow and plants are in fabric pots.
I still get black spots but almost exclusively on bridgesii.
I don't cut or remove any tissue and the plants just stay strong and grow through it.
In my opinion, the more you cut the plant it will just slow down its growing process and be more susceptible to disease.
I think the best response is a supportive one, contributing to overall health of the plants so they can grow through it.
Been growing trichs for ten years with minimal loses.


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: turtle_hermit]
    #26827019 - 07/16/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds exactly like the high tunnel I have setup. Shade cloth down the top, recently added cloth to the west side. Open front door, back window, and side roll up, stays dusty dry in there all the time.

Black and brown spots and the unknown rash like disease that just eats its way around on the skin are almost exclusively on Bridgesii, exceptions are a black sore on one Peruvian and one Dominio which aren't nearly obliterated by it like bridgesii is.


The other option I'm entertaining is lowering the temperature inside the greenhouse via a large evaporation cooler. If I can get the temperatures down below 90 in there and make it unfavorable to rot, would that keep it away? Air temperature too cold for black spot = no black spot right? Although I'm not sure how effective it will be with 40-50% humidity, I have seen some commercial greenhouses here in the area with large coolers, so they should be partly effective.

Evaporative cooling for a greenhouse (DIY).

I'm looking at building one now because I already have a 48" industrial fan installed, and a second lying around. I was going to salvage a 3HP motor for it from a blower but I think I'm going to use the gasoline engine there that I fixed up. Just ordered the pulley for it today because of this idea. In the least, the air in the forest behind the greenhouse is around 85-90 due to shade and transpiration from the trees.

I meant to fix up the fan earlier in the year but I figured I would get tired of the noise and didn't.

---

The most affordable way I see being able to turn it into an evaporative cooler is to use a hog panel, some aspen bale media. It brings my shopping list down to a sump pump / swamp pump, a roll of media which will get me two years use, and some fittings. Everything else is scrap I have on hand, (wood, pipes, tubing, zip ties, etc.)

It's comparable to the price of an ornamental systemic but the question is... will it work? The Fan probably sucks 10,000 - 18,000 CFM through it and its outright overkill on some thin bale media. Even geared down and a throttled down engine, it might suck too much air. Any thoughts on it?


Edited by DancingWolf (07/16/20 08:07 PM)


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InvisibleGrey Fox

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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26828475 - 07/17/20 09:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

An evaporative cooler will increase the humidity in your greenhouse.  It also will not effevtively cool if the ambient humidity is already high.  Evap coolers are most effective in low humidity conditions.  Because when the humidity is high, less evaporation occurs which means the "cooling" effect is diminished.  It might make sense to use an evap cooler if you were growing plants that benefit from an increase in humidity and if your climate was not that humid to begin with.  But for the problem that you are dealing with I dont think that an evap cooler will be the best solution.


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OfflineGreenHorns
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: Grey Fox]
    #26828530 - 07/17/20 09:24 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I know i keep going back to the desiccant idea but in your area it makes a shitload of sense. Since you have a greenhouse and plenty of equipment for FAE you may want to consider a desiccant dryer. Basically you would be removing the moisture from the air before it gets plumbed into the greenhouse. Depending on your exact conditions you could go from 90%rh down to 60%rh with a well built unit. Plenty of DIY options out there.

Another idea now that i know youve got space and resources is to use geothermal cooling. Imaging a 12" tube zig zagging back and forth 24" below the soil with an intake fan connected to a filter pulling ambient air, passing it through the underground plumbing (therefore being cooled) and injecting it right into the greenhouse. I did this exact same thing for a greenhouse in northern California where temps regularly got well above 90f frequently into the 100's. You could easily shave 10f off your greenhouse temp. Coupled with desiccant drying your cacti will be happy as clams at high tide. Better than systemic fungicides by a country mile.


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: GreenHorns]
    #26828669 - 07/17/20 10:42 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

RH here is usually 40-50% for a "dry" heat and I can expect a 10-15*F reduction with a cooler.

These plants are my single source of income and expensive machinery is out of reach. This region is hard pan clay and it's essentially concrete. I thought about geothermal for heating last year but its simply not feasible unless its a system with pipes set several hundred feet into the ground and water pumped through them, those systems are in the $10,000+ range.

For now, I'm just getting the fan setup and that will flush cooler air through from the back end where it's heavily shaded. It will either work or it won't, I'll find out in a few weeks.


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InvisibleEl Torcho
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: DancingWolf]
    #26828758 - 07/17/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's 100° here with 50% RH during the day, 100% RH at night.... Has been for a few weeks.
My bridges are outside, in full sun, and get watered daily.

No issues.


--------------------
"Well it sounds trivial, but the key insight is . . . . . you don't know shit"
~Dennis McKenna

"There is more to human existence and to reality itself than science can ever give us access to."
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Offlinethe man
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: El Torcho]
    #26829220 - 07/17/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

actually peru is substantially closer to the equator then florida just fyi so it get intense sun :wink:

averages from peruvian areas.
Piura (north); 55 m (180 ft); annual mean temperature 24.4 °C (75.9 °F); annual mean precipitation 72 mm (2.8 in) Climate type BWh (hot desert)

Lima, (central); 30 m (98 ft); annual mean temperature 19.2 °C (66.6 °F); annual 15 mm (0.6 in), Climate type BWh ("subtropical" desert, but cold Humboldt Current generates fog

but mountains yes get 30+ inches of rain however dryer areas are were majority of cacti are found in nature :wink:

fungus comes from being too wet... ..


Edited by the man (07/17/20 03:18 PM)


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OfflineDancingWolf
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Re: Lets talk systemic fungicides [Re: the man]
    #26829463 - 07/17/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

For now, I'm re-organizing all the pallets inside my greenhouse and I'm moving everything back in now that I have a piece of shade cloth on the west side to prevent sun burn. It's around the same temp inside as it is outside, when the parts arrive for the fan, that should drop it at least 10F, the lower temp + more air circulation should prevent new plants from getting black spots on them. I still haven't ruled out using a broad spectrum systemic though, or a local systemic.



I've been treating these with systemic and topical fungicides for a while, although the degrafted ones won't benefit from a systemic much. Thiomyl and Chlorothalonil.


Edited by DancingWolf (07/17/20 05:38 PM)


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