Home | Community | Message Board

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
OfflineWingflier
Stranger
Registered: 07/15/20
Posts: 1
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy
    #26826002 - 07/15/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I've never been a person that's huge into drugs or illicit substances. I don't even drink alcohol.

The reason I took the path towards pursuing psychedelic (in this case, psilocybin) therapy is because of my history.

A brief history about me:

I've been diagnosed with severe depression and anxiety from a young age. Before I was even a teenager, I contemplated killing myself, and have many, many times since then. I've been diagnosed with PTSD and have severe flashbacks and constant intrusive thoughts. My life consists of extreme stress and anxiety that basically never goes away. I've been through so much traumatic abuse and horrific experiences that I have ceased to be able to function as a healthy human being. Despite that, I have pursued every mainstream, orthodox method of dealing with my psychological and emotional problems for the better part of 20 years. Despite being in therapy for 2 decades, and trying essentially every legal psychotropic drug on the market, I finally came to the conclusion that these "solutions" were not going to work for me. The final straw was when my last therapist suggested that I engage in ECT, Electroconvulsive Therapy, due to my resistance to all conventional methods. It is only out of sheer desperation, and a respect for the science, that I sought out magic mushrooms as a way to find some peace and resolution to what troubles me.

I did as much research as I could before trying psilocybin for the first time, including having a trip sitter nearby and starting at a microdose. Since then, I have had 3 "major" trips, starting at 3 grams, 3.5 grams, and 4 grams. Each trip has been a similar experience. It's very hard to explain, but I will do my best. The psilocin begins to shut down the default mode network, which I can feel. I notice my conscious self, my identity, and my ego begin to slip away as I slowly ease into the trip. However, once this effect reaches a certain point, my body and mind begin to panic. An immense fear grips me and I am unable to let go of the desire to hang on to my ego and the illusion of my being in control. It's difficult to explain what this feels like. It's a bit like standing at the edge of a cliff. You know that you could simply take a single step and plummet into the abyss, but your fear grips you and prevents you from doing so. Or perhaps it's like standing at a door that one knows they could open at any time, but fear prevents them from seeing what's on the other side.

In other words, I *feel* the ability to let go. If I wanted to, I could so easily let go and sink into the trip. The door is there, and it's waiting for me to open it. But I simply do not have the strength to do so. My fear is too strong and will not let go. My desire for control prevents me from leaving everything behind, for fear of what I might see. Now of course, I know that none of this is in my control. If there's been any insight so far that the trips have revealed, it's that there's no "me". I do not exist. I am not choosing, in any meaningful way, to be unable to let go and let "God", for lack of a better analogy (obviously, the Eastern conception of God here). In fact, last night, as I lay there in bed at the height of the trip, standing at the precipice of the cliff, I so desperately wanted to let go and experience whatever it was that the universe had to show me. But again, the fear was not in my control. Against my own will, I suppose you could say, I stood at the door, but could not open it.

So this leaves me with 1 question, something I hoped you guys could help me answer:

Do I continue taking moderate doses of psilocybin and hoping that my broken mind will eventually ease itself into letting go over time? Or do I take a heroic dose (5+ gs) and force myself to experience something I may not be ready for?

It seems like a stupid question, but this is not something that I can simply go see a therapist or talk to a counselor about. This is a question only fellow psychonauts will likely be able to answer.

Thank you for your time and consideration.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offline3some
Haagse Harry
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/20/20
Posts: 278
Last seen: 2 months, 8 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: Wingflier]
    #26826019 - 07/15/20 09:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wingflier said:
I've never been a person that's huge into drugs or illicit substances. I don't even drink alcohol.

The reason I took the path towards pursuing psychedelic (in this case, psilocybin) therapy is because of my history.

A brief history about me:

I've been diagnosed with severe depression and anxiety from a young age. Before I was even a teenager, I contemplated killing myself, and have many, many times since then. I've been diagnosed with PTSD and have severe flashbacks and constant intrusive thoughts. My life consists of extreme stress and anxiety that basically never goes away. I've been through so much traumatic abuse and horrific experiences that I have ceased to be able to function as a healthy human being. Despite that, I have pursued every mainstream, orthodox method of dealing with my psychological and emotional problems for the better part of 20 years. Despite being in therapy for 2 decades, and trying essentially every legal psychotropic drug on the market, I finally came to the conclusion that these "solutions" were not going to work for me. The final straw was when my last therapist suggested that I engage in ECT, Electroconvulsive Therapy, due to my resistance to all conventional methods. It is only out of sheer desperation, and a respect for the science, that I sought out magic mushrooms as a way to find some peace and resolution to what troubles me.

I did as much research as I could before trying psilocybin for the first time, including having a trip sitter nearby and starting at a microdose. Since then, I have had 3 "major" trips, starting at 3 grams, 3.5 grams, and 4 grams. Each trip has been a similar experience. It's very hard to explain, but I will do my best. The psilocin begins to shut down the default mode network, which I can feel. I notice my conscious self, my identity, and my ego begin to slip away as I slowly ease into the trip. However, once this effect reaches a certain point, my body and mind begin to panic. An immense fear grips me and I am unable to let go of the desire to hang on to my ego and the illusion of my being in control. It's difficult to explain what this feels like. It's a bit like standing at the edge of a cliff. You know that you could simply take a single step and plummet into the abyss, but your fear grips you and prevents you from doing so. Or perhaps it's like standing at a door that one knows they could open at any time, but fear prevents them from seeing what's on the other side.

In other words, I *feel* the ability to let go. If I wanted to, I could so easily let go and sink into the trip. The door is there, and it's waiting for me to open it. But I simply do not have the strength to do so. My fear is too strong and will not let go. My desire for control prevents me from leaving everything behind, for fear of what I might see. Now of course, I know that none of this is in my control. If there's been any insight so far that the trips have revealed, it's that there's no "me". I do not exist. I am not choosing, in any meaningful way, to be unable to let go and let "God", for lack of a better analogy (obviously, the Eastern conception of God here). In fact, last night, as I lay there in bed at the height of the trip, standing at the precipice of the cliff, I so desperately wanted to let go and experience whatever it was that the universe had to show me. But again, the fear was not in my control. Against my own will, I suppose you could say, I stood at the door, but could not open it.

So this leaves me with 1 question, something I hoped you guys could help me answer:

Do I continue taking moderate doses of psilocybin and hoping that my broken mind will eventually ease itself into letting go over time? Or do I take a heroic dose (5+ gs) and force myself to experience something I may not be ready for?

It seems like a stupid question, but this is not something that I can simply go see a therapist or talk to a counselor about. This is a question only fellow psychonauts will likely be able to answer.

Thank you for your time and consideration.




Hey there,

Newbie here as well. I have never taken anything interesting until a trip trip to Amsterdam about 4 months ago. My first trip was 10g of truffles. Since then, I managed to hunt for some subs and my first subs trip was only 0.8g dried. Then I took slowly increase them to 1.5g and I am happy to stay here for a while. I must say, I have had only good trips so far.

I guess like everything else that we do, there is a learning curve. Take our time to master the skill and we will be proficient in it eventually. Yes, I believe letting go of ego as a skill as well. So I'd say go slow, take in the sights and let the mushroom guide you.


--------------------
Ask me about growing yeast, mold and bacteria. I'm very experienced. :tongue2:

The first post any newbie should read even before acquiring spores: Pastywhyte's Principles of mushroom growing for beginners


Edited by 3some (07/15/20 09:25 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLosTresOjos
Humano
I'm a teapot
Registered: 09/18/18
Posts: 1,347
Loc: Hurling Through Space
Last seen: 2 years, 29 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: 3some] * 1
    #26826054 - 07/15/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Listen man. There things we are not ready for. Always, you've come through. Now this is another situation where fear is holding you back.

  I understand what you mean but it's hard to put to words exactly what I mean.

  Seems like your are handling like a champ so I would recommend staying around those highish doses.

In order to experience all that the mushrooms have to offer you'll have to learn to be calm. You have to silence that part of you that is ringing the alarms. It screams and kicks. It's ok, you took a safe dose, you should be in a safe place, preferably laying down but on a low surface. Body is in order.

The mind. Well letting go is huge. You might think you are going mad or dying but if that's what the mind is going to simulate them let it. Staying calm as an observer is important. Not easy but with practice.

It's not easy if you resist. Some people reach that cliff and just go. Those wild people. That aspect of the trip gets easier but what lays beyond is where it gets funky.

I say this but I fully understand that one has to do these things in the face of something so alien.


Edited by LosTresOjos (07/15/20 10:10 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePrimalSoup
hyperspatial illuminations
Other User Gallery


Registered: 11/17/09
Posts: 13,568
Loc: PNW Flag
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: Wingflier] * 1
    #26826073 - 07/15/20 10:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wingflier said:
I did as much research as I could before trying psilocybin for the first time, including having a trip sitter nearby and starting at a microdose. Since then, I have had 3 "major" trips, starting at 3 grams, 3.5 grams, and 4 grams. Each trip has been a similar experience. It's very hard to explain, but I will do my best. The psilocin begins to shut down the default mode network, which I can feel. I notice my conscious self, my identity, and my ego begin to slip away as I slowly ease into the trip. However, once this effect reaches a certain point, my body and mind begin to panic. An immense fear grips me and I am unable to let go of the desire to hang on to my ego and the illusion of my being in control. It's difficult to explain what this feels like. It's a bit like standing at the edge of a cliff. You know that you could simply take a single step and plummet into the abyss, but your fear grips you and prevents you from doing so. Or perhaps it's like standing at a door that one knows they could open at any time, but fear prevents them from seeing what's on the other side.




That's pretty much what happens to everybody.  One standard piece of advice is to raise the dosage, which makes it harder to maintain resistance.  Once you experience what happens when you're able to let the resistance go you'll see why it's important.

The advice I would give is different though - just keep trying it, perhaps while raising the dosage slightly each time.  Eventually you'll get to the point where it becomes possible to let go.  The effect will be the same, it'll just take longer. 

But you can get there with practice. :seriousthumbsup:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #26826254 - 07/16/20 02:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Quote:

Wingflier said:
I did as much research as I could before trying psilocybin for the first time, including having a trip sitter nearby and starting at a microdose. Since then, I have had 3 "major" trips, starting at 3 grams, 3.5 grams, and 4 grams. Each trip has been a similar experience. It's very hard to explain, but I will do my best. The psilocin begins to shut down the default mode network, which I can feel. I notice my conscious self, my identity, and my ego begin to slip away as I slowly ease into the trip. However, once this effect reaches a certain point, my body and mind begin to panic. An immense fear grips me and I am unable to let go of the desire to hang on to my ego and the illusion of my being in control. It's difficult to explain what this feels like. It's a bit like standing at the edge of a cliff. You know that you could simply take a single step and plummet into the abyss, but your fear grips you and prevents you from doing so. Or perhaps it's like standing at a door that one knows they could open at any time, but fear prevents them from seeing what's on the other side.




That's pretty much what happens to everybody.  One standard piece of advice is to raise the dosage, which makes it harder to maintain resistance.  Once you experience what happens when you're able to let the resistance go you'll see why it's important.

The advice I would give is different though - just keep trying it, perhaps while raising the dosage slightly each time.  Eventually you'll get to the point where it becomes possible to let go.  The effect will be the same, it'll just take longer. 

But you can get there with practice. :seriousthumbsup:



Agreed. Definitely this.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,531
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: Wingflier]
    #26828240 - 07/17/20 05:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

while your approach is very conceptual and top down, you need to connect with something more basic.

DMN EGO etc. these are words that have little to do with actual mental contents in the moment. (they are abstractions and theories with little value when you are in the thicket)

turn your attention more towards mental contents including all the undefinable strange and partial formations that arise and pass. notice the flow of that, and use that noticing to achieve your goals of mental integrity. notice even the trail  of your noticing and do not stop to judge.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:đź§   _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26828265 - 07/17/20 06:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What is there to fear in what is just like a dream?  Where everything is ultimately empty, even that very emptiness itself.  Nonexistent -yet- perceivable..mysterious beyond measure because although empty - it is/we are wisdom & awareness.

  Let it happen unstrained & unblocked.  If you ingest ....It’s going to happen whether you want it to or not, so you can either relax....tolerate, accept, and surrender.  Or you can tense up....deny, refuse, avoid, withstand / fight what is simply your own experience & nature.

Non-action, that’s all it takes to remain chilled out despite whatever appears in the trip.  That, however, does not necessarily imply inaction, passivity or stasis, it entails neither a loss or diminishment of efflorescence nor any particular manner of being.

We are so conditioned from time immemorial to be attached to pleasure & to avoid pain - to want good & reject bad - tripping can be a gift in that we can go behind our own conditioning and be unattached to all things so as to go beyond all of it, despite whatever arises as our experience - good or bad, happy or sad, right or wrong - put on a sly smile and chill & witness how the movie & the silver screen are completely interdependent - then you may see through what is sense experience & understand deeply the nature of the phenomena.
Good ol’ natural mystical experience for all!

Helpful words: (where it says movie - replace with the word trip)

The self-conscious viewer, objectifying the image on the screen,
illustrates delusory dualistic maya where maya is the foe to be subdued.

But for the movie-goer enrapt in the movie,
like a child engaged in play-acting
yet fully aware of each moment as it turns,
his pristine mind and the movie are at one.
Thus the movie experience is like nondual maya.

Relaxing into that all-embracing cognition,
the picture and the screen are a unitary whole.
Without the screen-no picture;
without the film- just blankness:
the two united-pure joy!

So, remember & recognize :


May all beings without exception perceive all situations as unoriginated illusory evanescence,
and achieve higher and higher understanding beautified by the buddha-trikaya.

Abandoning the intellect that craves security
in what is only dream, magic show, mirage,
reflection, echo and apparition,
let primal awareness and spontaneity regain their primacy.

Trip well my brothers :cheers:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (07/17/20 06:37 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnkidu
"No-Such-Person"
Male

Registered: 07/09/16
Posts: 10,698
Last seen: 6 months, 10 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26829294 - 07/17/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Up the dose

Let go

When you start to notice your feelings and emotions remove yourself and observe

Nothing wrong with feeling that way

Dont feed it or dwell on it

Observe, try to detach. Focus on breath. Remind yourself it is the medicine working and what happens is meant to happen.

Become an observer.

Ok, you are feeling this way or thinking this. Accept it. What is the trouble?

What music do you listen to during the trip?

Certain music grounds me and aids in the experience. I like native american flute music.

Eyes closed. At night. Relaxing atmosphere. Candles and lights low.

Face it man. Youre running from something and youre scared to confront it. Give in and accept it and the healing will begin.

It is just the medicine working. Let it do its job. It is your friend. You are meant to experience what you experience. If you can take a breathe and accept it you will move through it. And on the other side..

Up the dose.


--------------------
Within You , Without You


:mushroom2::levitate::mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: Wingflier]
    #26829930 - 07/17/20 11:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don’t think you explicitly said whether any of your follow On trips were with a sitter or not. I’d recommend taking a 3.5g or 4g dose, but completely alone, and with no possibility of getting someone around “to help”. Might sound a bit brutal if you’ve never done this before, but trust me; this is how I learnt “to let go”.

What we all actually mean when we say “let go”, is not to let go of anything, but to “stop resisting”. Easier said than done, but if you are on your own; WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO NOW?

You have 2 choices:
1. Panic!
2. Ask yourself what is the worst that can happen, and just “go with the flow”.

When the come up waves start to get intense, you may start to feel like you’ve made a mistake tripping alone. So this will force you to examine the fear, what is causing you to react like this, what is the risk that you’re actually facing, you may or may not die but what have you got to lose, as it’s too late now!

It all sounds a bit back to front, I admit, but once you have had this breakthrough experience on your own, it will get much easier the next time, and believe me; you will ask yourself why you have never tripped alone before.

It’s like having a television, or a phone; once you’ve had one, you can’t imagine life without one. Same thing with psychedelics; once you have tripped alone, you will look forward to tripping alone in future.

Go for it, brother, you won’t look back.
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnkidu
"No-Such-Person"
Male

Registered: 07/09/16
Posts: 10,698
Last seen: 6 months, 10 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26829940 - 07/17/20 11:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

"You may or may not die, but too late"

:lol:


--------------------
Within You , Without You


:mushroom2::levitate::mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: Enkidu]
    #26829955 - 07/17/20 11:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hahaha. My grasp of English is somewhat limited! Really hard trying to convey the thought processes the first time you “let go”. At the end of the day, it’s the shit I’m dying, then the but what can I do about it, no point worrying now it’s too late :awesome:


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26829996 - 07/18/20 12:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It’s like taking a shit,  what are you going to do - never shit again for the rest of your life?  just let it happen!

:cookiemonster:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26830113 - 07/18/20 02:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hahaha! Yep I agree I haven’t described this well. Somebody help me out; what are you thinking just before you “let go” and dive into the multiverse, having discarded your physical realm?

Cheers
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnkidu
"No-Such-Person"
Male

Registered: 07/09/16
Posts: 10,698
Last seen: 6 months, 10 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26830191 - 07/18/20 05:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think you did fine, just thought that line was funny :grin:


--------------------
Within You , Without You


:mushroom2::levitate::mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDJ Ed
Mushroom Engineer
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 2,326
Loc: UK Flag
Last seen: 1 month, 28 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: Enkidu]
    #26830213 - 07/18/20 05:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I do have a bit of a reputation among family and peers that I tend to say things they see as funny, whereas I know perfectly well what I meant! I once said to mum: “Mum, I’ve got a prick in my pants!”. Perfectly logical to me, as there was something sharp down there; it’s just everybody else fell about laughing :wonka:


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEnkidu
"No-Such-Person"
Male

Registered: 07/09/16
Posts: 10,698
Last seen: 6 months, 10 days
Re: I need some advice on practicing psychedelic therapy [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26830219 - 07/18/20 05:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
Within You , Without You


:mushroom2::levitate::mushroom2:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Regressive self-therapy using psychedelics?
( 1 2 all )
ding 9,222 20 04/20/04 04:10 AM
by Arrakis
* should i use psychedelics?
( 1 2 3 all )
ncj 10,448 54 08/07/03 07:31 PM
by ncj
* A Psychedelic Dilemma! DannyBoy 1,696 15 07/29/03 05:11 AM
by gnrm23
* Need advice for getting high alone.
( 1 2 all )
milk 4,790 29 08/28/03 09:00 PM
by MojoRisin
* Spiritual psychedelics.
( 1 2 all )
elevatorbeat 4,369 23 07/27/20 07:12 PM
by neonnexus
* How can we get psychedelics rescheduled?
( 1 2 all )
psikooz 4,001 20 03/17/04 05:01 PM
by Psiloman
* I plan to do this but need advice: 5 Grams/Silent Darkness MOTH 2,923 9 03/30/04 04:30 PM
by angryjslice
* Practical use of Learys Psychedelic Experience and psytrance Psiledehysp 2,552 12 01/18/06 07:25 AM
by psychedelix

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: psilocybinjunkie, Rose, mushboy, LogicaL Chaos, Northerner, bodhisatta
341 topic views. 2 members, 69 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.