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The Ecstatic
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Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden
#26825035 - 07/15/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I’ve seen a bunch of takes here and on other platforms in regards to the positives and negatives of the (broadly defined) left voting for Joe Biden.
I don’t want to quibble over all of those arguments, as there’s merit to most of them and I already know where most of y’all stand on those. I want to posit an either/or that I haven’t seen discussed much here.
Let’s say the left (again, broad term here, I’m including the Bernie wing, traditional 3rd party voters, etc) turns out for Biden, which most of them seem to be planning on doing, and Biden wins. I think most of us can agree Biden won’t be pushed left, he’ll govern slightly to the right of Obama (like GWB).
So here’s my question:
Is it better for the future of the left if:
A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party
Or
B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.
So just to be clear: I’m not asking which option is better for the average American, the nation, harm reduction, or anything like that. I’m asking which option do you think expands the “left” base for 2024 and beyond.
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GordoTEK
Underground Researcher

Registered: 01/26/19
Posts: 82
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#26825133 - 07/15/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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We'll I really don't think Republicans are ever going to win another presidency, so that party is essentially dead already, this is just based on demographics alone, they don't have the numbers and don't have any realistic path to getting them.
I'm really tired of the two main parties though and I'm hoping a "legit" third party arises very soon (or more than one)! Democrats have done a terrible job of picking candidates, Hillary is one of the most polarizing people alive, possibly the worst selection that could have been made. Biden is another terrible selection, but he is far more likely to win just because of Trumps big decline resulting from the pandemic (Trumps polls and betting odds were actually really strong before the pandemic and it was looking like an easy reelection, now he's at around 41% odds which is almost insurmountable).
Biden seems like a stereotypical run of the mill career politician, the stuff with his son making millions in shady deals stinks of corruption and Joe was even personally involved there, and yet the media gives him a free pass. At times he seems to go in and out of a fog, sometimes he is very clear headed, other times he seems like he is losing it. The rape allegations against him were also pretty credible and the media gave him another free pass on that despite total hysteria over Kavanaugh with much flimsier allegations (double standard much?). His weird hair sniffing thing and touching everyone is also kind of amusing but I guess harmless.
The time is ripe for a 3rd party, never been a better opportunity really. I would like to see someone younger and more in touch with the real world have a shot at the presidency. Sadly, only a celebrity really has any chance, name recognition is critical to get any traction. But people may be more wary of a celebrity candidate after the Trump era.
As far as how politics might affect anything "shroomery" related, well just look at all the positive developments that have happened in the last few years - massive new research efforts, huge FDA support including fast track and breakthrough therapy statuses for psychedelic drugs, huge number of new companies in the space (Usona, COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, MAPS has phase 3 trial for MDMA right now, etc), decriminalization in Denver, Oakland, Santa Cruz. Ballot initiatives for decriminalization in D.C., Oregon, and other places, etc. Point being, having coke or pepsi in the white house probably doesn't make all that much difference.
Even conservative guys like Kevin O'Leary from shark tank are on this train now:
You might think its all about just making a quick buck for him, but he actually seems very interested in the medicinal value and has zero interest in the recreational side.
-------------------- GordoTEK
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Kryptos
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: GordoTEK]
#26825171 - 07/15/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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First off, I fundamentally disagree with your initial axiom that Biden won't move left. Based on everything that I've seen, Biden has been veering sharply left for a while now. He's a party man, and he knows that he needs to follow the party.
That kinda fundamentally destroys both of the OP options, but I'll still give it a shot:
Biden elected, doesn't govern much, mostly leaves it to the experts and younger party members while occasionally pulling back on the leash.
I'd expect another one of the GOP's post mortems like in 2012 in which they talk about how they need to be less racist and less sexist, which they then promptly ignore. 2022 midterms become a litmus test on whether they can double down on the racism or not. Assuming they lose those, I could see the GOP fracturing into a far right nationalist/white supremacists branch, and a piece that joins the Democrats. I could see the left wing element of the Democrats also splitting off around this time.
If Biden plays his cards right, I could see 2024 and 2028 both going democrat, likely whoever Biden picks as VP this year. I think Biden's VP will be groomed as the next candidate.
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christopera
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: GordoTEK]
#26825203 - 07/15/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I personally like to play the long game and the president is a lighting rod for bad press. Even when Obama was doing a relatively decent job he still got made fun of for liking brown mustard. The optics of the position of president is one person and one branch, so it’s much easier to criticize. The result being that despite Obama doing an okay job the Republicans easily turned the other two branches. So, I guess I’d rather have Donnie J wasting away in the White House but have control of the other two branches. The only real hang up with that plan is the Supreme Court picks. Ruth isn’t well and she won’t make it another five years. That said, the recent rulings I’ve seen from the Supreme Court have been pretty good, so maybe the stacked lineup isn’t as bad as maybe I thought it was going to be. Anyways, holding the house and the senate I believe is the best way to represent the left in this country while letting the republican president continue to be the lightning rod that he is.
I do think Biden has a good chance of winning at this point. We might end up in option A whether we like it or not, at least we will get a decent Supreme Court pick.
-------------------- Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result. A Dorito is pizza, change my mind. Bank and Union with The Shroomery at the Zuul on The internet - now with %'s and things I’m sorry it had to be me.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26825218 - 07/15/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: So here’s my question:
Is it better for the future of the left if:
A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party
Or
B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.
Maybe option C) is best:
C) The left stays home, Trump wins re-elections, and the Democratic party realizes they might just have to start listening to the people, not their billionaiare donors, to win next time.
Meh, who am I kidding. They'll always listen to their billionaire donors who got them where they are in the first place.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 1
#26825261 - 07/15/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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A vote for Biden is a vote for Biden's VP.
This debate will change dramatically as soon as we know who the VP (A.K.A. the "actual" president.) will be.
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qman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26825294 - 07/15/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think Biden wins regardless if The Left stays home or not. Either way, Biden is going to completely ignore the progressive part of the Democratic Party and essentially govern like a moderate Republican. There's very little distinction between Biden and Trump. I really wonder what they could even debate about.
The political process is dead, change can NOT take place within the system anymore. So let's stop trying to operate on the premise that it's still feasible to do so.
Biden is going to have to deliver the bad news once he's in office. The news is that fiscal austerity is coming to the working class. Trust me, it's a lot better it's coming from Biden than if it comes from Trump. People will be much more understanding when it comes from the left, but a screw job will still be a screw job.
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qman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman] 2
#26825350 - 07/15/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Young Black Voters Don't Want Joe Biden"
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Vahn421
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman] 1
#26825365 - 07/15/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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From the video: "Joe Biden has dome more harm to the black community in the last 40 years than almost any other American."
Yes. (I love Jimmy Dore.)
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Psilynut2
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26825441 - 07/15/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The left stays home, Trump wins re-elections, and the Democratic party realizes they might just have to start listening to the people, not their billionaiare donors, to win next time.
Meh, who am I kidding. They'll always listen to their billionaire donors who got them where they are in the first place.
People who voted for Biden did it because billionaire donors told them to ?
Edited by Psilynut2 (07/15/20 03:10 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Psilynut2]
#26825747 - 07/15/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said: People who voted for Biden did it because billionaire donors told them to ?
Yes. Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media. The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral, but we've shown here countless times that the corporate owned media are almost always negative about Bernie (he wants to tax the rich more), and almost always positive about establishment politicians.
Even Bari Weiss just quit the NY Times, saying they force everyone to conform to their "predetermined narrative".
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] 2
#26826425 - 07/16/20 07:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Bari Weiss is a racist scumbag fuck her opinions.
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Psilynut2
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#26826461 - 07/16/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yes. Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media. The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral,
The voters could have easily made Bernie President , were they not able to hear the words coming out of his mouth or something ? Why couldn’t Bernie convince people to like him ? With all of the media available to us these days he didn’t really need those 5 or 6 companies for us to know what he stood for . . I don’t know anyone who didn’t know what he stood for , had heard him speak and had the ability to vote for him . I don’t think the media could had made Bernie win . That sounds like make believe to me . I get a special message from Sanders everyday on Facebook . Sometimes twice a day .
Edited by Psilynut2 (07/16/20 08:02 AM)
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qman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Psilynut2] 1
#26826515 - 07/16/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
Yes. Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media. The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral,
The voters could have easily made Bernie President , were they not able to hear the words coming out of his mouth or something ? Why couldn’t Bernie convince people to like him ? With all of the media available to us these days he didn’t really need those 5 or 6 companies for us to know what he stood for . . I don’t know anyone who didn’t know what he stood for , had heard him speak and had the ability to vote for him . I don’t think the media could had made Bernie win . That sounds like make believe to me . I get a special message from Sanders everyday on Facebook . Sometimes twice a day .
Every time I turned on CNN or MSNBC they were attacking Bernie with false narratives. They scared people away from Bernie, most people don't have the time or ability to thoroughly study each candidate and the issues, so they rely on whatever source of information that's easiest available. Bernie never stood a chance in that environment.
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qman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
#26826521 - 07/16/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Bari Weiss is a racist scumbag fuck her opinions.
Hmm, like take that back, she's Jewish you know.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman]
#26826597 - 07/16/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Time. It will take time for the old guard to finally die out. It seems like elder worship is still a huge thing in the US. No question we continue to elect peole way, WAY past thier prime.
Like most, I wish things would progress much faster but those entrenched at the top still have a high degree of influence and power- and what a lot they are; masters at shaping national dialogs on issues.... they are politicans after all.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Psilynut2
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman]
#26826730 - 07/16/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Every time I turned on CNN or MSNBC they were attacking Bernie with false narratives. They scared people away from Bernie, most people don't have the time or ability to thoroughly study each candidate and the issues, so they rely on whatever source of information that's easiest available. Bernie never stood a chance in that environment.
Bernie talks to Me directly through Facebook though . Nothing is easier than that . Not only that , his volunteers called and texted me relentlessly , almost everyday. I remember turning on cnn and being told Biden run was hopeless , your telling me the media turned it around for him by brainwashing people ? Is that your assertion ?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: GordoTEK]
#26826746 - 07/16/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
GordoTEK said: We'll I really don't think Republicans are ever going to win another presidency, so that party is essentially dead already, this is just based on demographics alone, they don't have the numbers and don't have any realistic path to getting them.
I'm really tired of the two main parties though and I'm hoping a "legit" third party arises very soon (or more than one)! Democrats have done a terrible job of picking candidates, Hillary is one of the most polarizing people alive, possibly the worst selection that could have been made. Biden is another terrible selection, but he is far more likely to win just because of Trumps big decline resulting from the pandemic (Trumps polls and betting odds were actually really strong before the pandemic and it was looking like an easy reelection, now he's at around 41% odds which is almost insurmountable).
Biden seems like a stereotypical run of the mill career politician, the stuff with his son making millions in shady deals stinks of corruption and Joe was even personally involved there, and yet the media gives him a free pass. At times he seems to go in and out of a fog, sometimes he is very clear headed, other times he seems like he is losing it. The rape allegations against him were also pretty credible and the media gave him another free pass on that despite total hysteria over Kavanaugh with much flimsier allegations (double standard much?). His weird hair sniffing thing and touching everyone is also kind of amusing but I guess harmless.
The time is ripe for a 3rd party, never been a better opportunity really. I would like to see someone younger and more in touch with the real world have a shot at the presidency. Sadly, only a celebrity really has any chance, name recognition is critical to get any traction. But people may be more wary of a celebrity candidate after the Trump era.
As far as how politics might affect anything "shroomery" related, well just look at all the positive developments that have happened in the last few years - massive new research efforts, huge FDA support including fast track and breakthrough therapy statuses for psychedelic drugs, huge number of new companies in the space (Usona, COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, MAPS has phase 3 trial for MDMA right now, etc), decriminalization in Denver, Oakland, Santa Cruz. Ballot initiatives for decriminalization in D.C., Oregon, and other places, etc. Point being, having coke or pepsi in the white house probably doesn't make all that much difference.
Even conservative guys like Kevin O'Leary from shark tank are on this train now:
You might think its all about just making a quick buck for him, but he actually seem s very interested in the medicinal value and has zero interest in the recreational side.
I largely agree with this sentiment aside from the first part: I don’t think the GOP is dead by a long shot. Sure they face a demographically and generational problem, but they’re not stupid. As much as the Democrats exist to provide a bulwark against the left and a blowoff valve for the excesses of the GOP, the GOP exists to make the Democrats look like a healthy alternative. If the GOP moves left to stay relevant it will expose the Democrats and make room for a true labor party. I think either way the current dynamic is unsustainable. We’ll see if the Biden administration and their incrementalism will be enough to pacify people, but that’s gonna be tough when the next recession hits.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Kryptos] 1
#26826763 - 07/16/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kryptos said: First off, I fundamentally disagree with your initial axiom that Biden won't move left. Based on everything that I've seen, Biden has been veering sharply left for a while now. He's a party man, and he knows that he needs to follow the party.
That kinda fundamentally destroys both of the OP options, but I'll still give it a shot:
Biden elected, doesn't govern much, mostly leaves it to the experts and younger party members while occasionally pulling back on the leash.
I'd expect another one of the GOP's post mortems like in 2012 in which they talk about how they need to be less racist and less sexist, which they then promptly ignore. 2022 midterms become a litmus test on whether they can double down on the racism or not. Assuming they lose those, I could see the GOP fracturing into a far right nationalist/white supremacists branch, and a piece that joins the Democrats. I could see the left wing element of the Democrats also splitting off around this time.
If Biden plays his cards right, I could see 2024 and 2028 both going democrat, likely whoever Biden picks as VP this year. I think Biden's VP will be groomed as the next candidate.
I agree with most of this, especially the part about the direction of the next GOP pivot affecting the future of the Democrats, and the left, as well. But I don’t see Biden making any genuine moves to the left. He won’t even come out in support of legalization, something that 2/3rds of Americans support AND a policy position that will excite younger voters (the demo he’s worst with in enthusiasm). He’s shunned M4A and proposed choosing a Republican VP. He’s attacking Trump from the right on foreign policy by saying trump is being too nice to Russia China Venezuela and North Korea. He’s pro fracking, despite pushing out some weak sauce climate plan a few days ago. Like I said, he’ll make a couple small incremental improvements, just enough to duct tape the party back together for another 4 years, but I’m not sure if it will be enough long term. The Sanders wing of the party is growing, even in defeat, which means a lot during a time when its super easy for the establishment to say “look our hands are tied the gop control everything.” If/when Biden gets in there that excuse goes away, and the reluctance of the Democratic leadership to govern the way their base wants them to will be laid bare. And they won’t have a charismatic black guy to dress it up this time, they’ll have a bumbling old racist sexual harasser who’s basically a caricature of what’s wrong with US politics.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#26826782 - 07/16/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
christopera said: I personally like to play the long game and the president is a lighting rod for bad press. Even when Obama was doing a relatively decent job he still got made fun of for liking brown mustard. The optics of the position of president is one person and one branch, so it’s much easier to criticize. The result being that despite Obama doing an okay job the Republicans easily turned the other two branches. So, I guess I’d rather have Donnie J wasting away in the White House but have control of the other two branches. The only real hang up with that plan is the Supreme Court picks. Ruth isn’t well and she won’t make it another five years. That said, the recent rulings I’ve seen from the Supreme Court have been pretty good, so maybe the stacked lineup isn’t as bad as maybe I thought it was going to be. Anyways, holding the house and the senate I believe is the best way to represent the left in this country while letting the republican president continue to be the lightning rod that he is.
I do think Biden has a good chance of winning at this point. We might end up in option A whether we like it or not, at least we will get a decent Supreme Court pick.
The importance of the Supreme Court is pretty important considering the deficit of liberal judges at this point.
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: So here’s my question:
Is it better for the future of the left if:
A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party
Or
B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.
Maybe option C) is best:
C) The left stays home, Trump wins re-elections, and the Democratic party realizes they might just have to start listening to the people, not their billionaiare donors, to win next time.
Meh, who am I kidding. They'll always listen to their billionaire donors who got them where they are in the first place.
The test case for that scenario is 2016.
Clinton lost because she refused to move left, and what did the Democrats do for 2020? They nominated someone to the right of Hillary Clinton.
The Democrats understand the power dynamic but their donors would rather they lose than give the left power in the party. And that’s why the left is slowly but surely taking that power by force, against significant odds.
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