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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden
    #26825035 - 07/15/20 11:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’ve seen a bunch of takes here and on other platforms in regards to the positives and negatives of the (broadly defined) left voting for Joe Biden.

I don’t want to quibble over all of those arguments, as there’s merit to most of them and I already know where most of y’all stand on those. I want to posit an either/or that I haven’t seen discussed much here.

Let’s say the left (again, broad term here, I’m including the Bernie wing, traditional 3rd party voters, etc) turns out for Biden, which most of them seem to be planning on doing, and Biden wins. I think most of us can agree Biden won’t be pushed left, he’ll govern slightly to the right of Obama (like GWB).

So here’s my question:

Is it better for the future of the left if:

A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party

Or

B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.


So just to be clear: I’m not asking which option is better for the average American, the nation, harm reduction, or anything like that. I’m asking which option do you think expands the “left” base for 2024 and beyond.


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InvisibleGordoTEK
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26825133 - 07/15/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We'll I really don't think Republicans are ever going to win another presidency, so that party is essentially dead already, this is just based on demographics alone, they don't have the numbers and don't have any realistic path to getting them. 

I'm really tired of the two main parties though and I'm hoping a "legit" third party arises very soon (or more than one)!  Democrats have done a terrible job of picking candidates, Hillary is one of the most polarizing people alive, possibly the worst selection that could have been made.  Biden is another terrible selection, but he is far more likely to win just because of Trumps big decline resulting from the pandemic (Trumps polls and betting odds were actually really strong before the pandemic and it was looking like an easy reelection, now he's at around 41% odds which is almost insurmountable).

Biden seems like a stereotypical run of the mill career politician, the stuff with his son making millions in shady deals stinks of corruption and Joe was even personally involved there, and yet the media gives him a free pass.  At times he seems to go in and out of a fog, sometimes he is very clear headed, other times he seems like he is losing it.  The rape allegations against him were also pretty credible and the media gave him another free pass on that despite total hysteria over Kavanaugh with much flimsier allegations (double standard much?). His weird hair sniffing thing and touching everyone is also kind of amusing but I guess harmless.

The time is ripe for a 3rd party, never been a better opportunity really.  I would like to see someone younger and more in touch with the real world have a shot at the presidency.  Sadly, only a celebrity really has any chance, name recognition is critical to get any traction.  But people may be more wary of a celebrity candidate after the Trump era.

As far as how politics might affect anything "shroomery" related, well just look at all the positive developments that have happened in the last few years - massive new research efforts, huge FDA support including fast track and breakthrough therapy statuses for psychedelic drugs, huge number of new companies in the space (Usona, COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, MAPS has phase 3 trial for MDMA right now, etc), decriminalization in Denver, Oakland, Santa Cruz.  Ballot initiatives for decriminalization in D.C., Oregon, and other places, etc.  Point being, having coke or pepsi in the white house probably doesn't make all that much difference.

Even conservative guys like Kevin O'Leary from shark tank are on this train now:

You might think its all about just making a quick buck for him, but he actually seems very interested in the medicinal value and has zero interest in the recreational side.


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GordoTEK


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26825171 - 07/15/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

First off, I fundamentally disagree with your initial axiom that Biden won't move left. Based on everything that I've seen, Biden has been veering sharply left for a while now. He's a party man, and he knows that he needs to follow the party.

That kinda fundamentally destroys both of the OP options, but I'll still give it a shot:

Biden elected, doesn't govern much, mostly leaves it to the experts and younger party members while occasionally pulling back on the leash.

I'd expect another one of the GOP's post mortems like in 2012 in which they talk about how they need to be less racist and less sexist, which they then promptly ignore. 2022 midterms become a litmus test on whether they can double down on the racism or not. Assuming they lose those, I could see the GOP fracturing into a far right nationalist/white supremacists branch, and a piece that joins the Democrats. I could see the left wing element of the Democrats also splitting off around this time.

If Biden plays his cards right, I could see 2024 and 2028 both going democrat, likely whoever Biden picks as VP this year. I think Biden's VP will be groomed as the next candidate.


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Onlinechristopera
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26825203 - 07/15/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I personally like to play the long game and the president is a lighting rod for bad press. Even when Obama was doing a relatively decent job he still got made fun of for liking brown mustard. The optics of the position of president is one person and one branch, so it’s much easier to criticize. The result being that despite Obama doing an okay job the Republicans easily turned the other two branches. So, I guess I’d rather have Donnie J wasting away in the White House but have control of the other two branches. The only real hang up with that plan is the Supreme Court picks. Ruth isn’t well and she won’t make it another five years. That said, the recent rulings I’ve seen from the Supreme Court have been pretty good, so maybe the stacked lineup isn’t as bad as maybe I thought it was going to be. Anyways, holding the house and the senate I believe is the best way to represent the left in this country while letting the republican president continue to be the lightning rod that he is.

I do think Biden has a good chance of winning at this point. We might end up in option A whether we like it or not, at least we will get a decent Supreme Court pick.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26825218 - 07/15/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So here’s my question:

Is it better for the future of the left if:

A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party

Or

B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.



Maybe option C) is best:

C)  The left stays home, Trump wins re-elections, and the Democratic party realizes they might just have to start listening to the people, not their billionaiare donors, to win next time.

Meh, who am I kidding.  They'll always listen to their billionaire donors who got them where they are in the first place.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26825261 - 07/15/20 01:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A vote for Biden is a vote for Biden's VP.

This debate will change dramatically as soon as we know who the VP (A.K.A. the "actual" president.) will be.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26825294 - 07/15/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think Biden wins regardless if The Left stays home or not. Either way, Biden is going to completely ignore the progressive part of the Democratic Party and essentially govern like a moderate Republican. There's very little distinction between Biden and Trump. I really wonder what they could even debate about.

The political process is dead, change can NOT take place within the system anymore. So let's stop trying to operate on the premise that it's still feasible to do so.

Biden is going to have to deliver the bad news once he's in office. The news is that fiscal austerity is coming to the working class. Trust me, it's a lot better it's coming from Biden than if it comes from Trump. People will be much more understanding when it comes from the left, but a screw job will still be a screw job.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman] * 2
    #26825350 - 07/15/20 02:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

"Young Black Voters Don't Want Joe Biden"



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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman] * 1
    #26825365 - 07/15/20 02:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

From the video: "Joe Biden has dome more harm to the black community in the last 40 years than almost any other American."

Yes. (I love Jimmy Dore.)


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26825441 - 07/15/20 03:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The left stays home, Trump wins re-elections, and the Democratic party realizes they might just have to start listening to the people, not their billionaiare donors, to win next time.

Meh, who am I kidding.  They'll always listen to their billionaire donors who got them where they are in the first place.





People who voted for Biden did it because billionaire donors told them to ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (07/15/20 03:10 PM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26825747 - 07/15/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
People who voted for Biden did it because billionaire donors told them to ?



Yes.  Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media.  The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral, but we've shown here countless times that the corporate owned media are almost always negative about Bernie (he wants to tax the rich more), and almost always positive about establishment politicians.

Even Bari Weiss just quit the NY Times, saying they force everyone to conform to their "predetermined narrative".


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #26826425 - 07/16/20 07:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Bari Weiss is a racist scumbag fuck her opinions.


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26826461 - 07/16/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Yes.  Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media.  The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral,




    The voters could have easily made Bernie President , were they not able to hear the words coming  out of his mouth or something ?
  Why couldn’t Bernie convince people to like him ? With all of the media available to us these days he didn’t really need those 5 or 6 companies for us to know what he stood for .  .
  I don’t know anyone who didn’t know what he stood for , had heard him speak and had the ability to vote for him .
  I don’t think the media could had made Bernie win . That sounds like make believe to me .
  I get a special message from Sanders everyday on Facebook . Sometimes twice a day .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (07/16/20 08:02 AM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #26826515 - 07/16/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Yes.  Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media.  The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral,




    The voters could have easily made Bernie President , were they not able to hear the words coming  out of his mouth or something ?
  Why couldn’t Bernie convince people to like him ? With all of the media available to us these days he didn’t really need those 5 or 6 companies for us to know what he stood for .  .
  I don’t know anyone who didn’t know what he stood for , had heard him speak and had the ability to vote for him .
  I don’t think the media could had made Bernie win . That sounds like make believe to me .
  I get a special message from Sanders everyday on Facebook . Sometimes twice a day .




Every time I turned on CNN or MSNBC they were attacking Bernie with false narratives. They scared people away from Bernie, most people don't have the time or ability to thoroughly study each candidate and the issues, so they rely on whatever source of information that's easiest available. Bernie never stood a chance in that environment.


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Offlineqman
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26826521 - 07/16/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Bari Weiss is a racist scumbag fuck her opinions.




Hmm, like take that back, she's Jewish you know.  :crankey:


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman]
    #26826597 - 07/16/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Time.
It will take time for the old guard to finally die out. It seems like elder worship is still a huge thing in the US. No question we continue to elect peole way, WAY past thier prime.

Like most, I wish things would progress much faster but those entrenched at the top still have a high degree of influence and power- and what a lot they are; masters at shaping national dialogs on issues.... they are politicans after all.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflinePsilynut2
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman]
    #26826730 - 07/16/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Every time I turned on CNN or MSNBC they were attacking Bernie with false narratives. They scared people away from Bernie, most people don't have the time or ability to thoroughly study each candidate and the issues, so they rely on whatever source of information that's easiest available. Bernie never stood a chance in that environment.





   


Bernie talks to Me directly through Facebook though . Nothing is easier than that .
    Not only that , his volunteers called and texted me relentlessly , almost everyday.
    I remember turning on cnn and being told Biden run was hopeless , your telling me the media turned it around for him  by brainwashing people ?  Is that your assertion ?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: GordoTEK]
    #26826746 - 07/16/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GordoTEK said:
We'll I really don't think Republicans are ever going to win another presidency, so that party is essentially dead already, this is just based on demographics alone, they don't have the numbers and don't have any realistic path to getting them. 

I'm really tired of the two main parties though and I'm hoping a "legit" third party arises very soon (or more than one)!  Democrats have done a terrible job of picking candidates, Hillary is one of the most polarizing people alive, possibly the worst selection that could have been made.  Biden is another terrible selection, but he is far more likely to win just because of Trumps big decline resulting from the pandemic (Trumps polls and betting odds were actually really strong before the pandemic and it was looking like an easy reelection, now he's at around 41% odds which is almost insurmountable).

Biden seems like a stereotypical run of the mill career politician, the stuff with his son making millions in shady deals stinks of corruption and Joe was even personally involved there, and yet the media gives him a free pass.  At times he seems to go in and out of a fog, sometimes he is very clear headed, other times he seems like he is losing it.  The rape allegations against him were also pretty credible and the media gave him another free pass on that despite total hysteria over Kavanaugh with much flimsier allegations (double standard much?). His weird hair sniffing thing and touching everyone is also kind of amusing but I guess harmless.

The time is ripe for a 3rd party, never been a better opportunity really.  I would like to see someone younger and more in touch with the real world have a shot at the presidency.  Sadly, only a celebrity really has any chance, name recognition is critical to get any traction.  But people may be more wary of a celebrity candidate after the Trump era.

As far as how politics might affect anything "shroomery" related, well just look at all the positive developments that have happened in the last few years - massive new research efforts, huge FDA support including fast track and breakthrough therapy statuses for psychedelic drugs, huge number of new companies in the space (Usona, COMPASS Pathways, MindMed, MAPS has phase 3 trial for MDMA right now, etc), decriminalization in Denver, Oakland, Santa Cruz.  Ballot initiatives for decriminalization in D.C., Oregon, and other places, etc.  Point being, having coke or pepsi in the white house probably doesn't make all that much difference.

Even conservative guys like Kevin O'Leary from shark tank are on this train now:

You might think its all about just making a quick buck for him, but he actually seem
s very interested in the medicinal value and has zero interest in the recreational side.




I largely agree with this sentiment aside from the first part: I don’t think the GOP is dead by a long shot. Sure they face a demographically and generational problem, but they’re not stupid. As much as the Democrats exist to provide a bulwark against the left and a blowoff valve for the excesses of the GOP, the GOP exists to make the Democrats look like a healthy alternative. If the GOP moves left to stay relevant it will expose the Democrats and make room for a true labor party. I think either way the current dynamic is unsustainable. We’ll see if the Biden administration and their incrementalism will be enough to pacify people, but that’s gonna be tough when the next recession hits.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26826763 - 07/16/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
First off, I fundamentally disagree with your initial axiom that Biden won't move left. Based on everything that I've seen, Biden has been veering sharply left for a while now. He's a party man, and he knows that he needs to follow the party.

That kinda fundamentally destroys both of the OP options, but I'll still give it a shot:

Biden elected, doesn't govern much, mostly leaves it to the experts and younger party members while occasionally pulling back on the leash.

I'd expect another one of the GOP's post mortems like in 2012 in which they talk about how they need to be less racist and less sexist, which they then promptly ignore. 2022 midterms become a litmus test on whether they can double down on the racism or not. Assuming they lose those, I could see the GOP fracturing into a far right nationalist/white supremacists branch, and a piece that joins the Democrats. I could see the left wing element of the Democrats also splitting off around this time.

If Biden plays his cards right, I could see 2024 and 2028 both going democrat, likely whoever Biden picks as VP this year. I think Biden's VP will be groomed as the next candidate.




I agree with most of this, especially the part about the direction of the next GOP pivot affecting the future of the Democrats, and the left, as well. But I don’t see Biden making any genuine moves to the left. He won’t even come out in support of legalization, something that 2/3rds of Americans support AND a policy position that will excite younger voters (the demo he’s worst with in enthusiasm). He’s shunned M4A and proposed choosing a Republican VP. He’s attacking Trump from the right on foreign policy by saying trump is being too nice to Russia China Venezuela and North Korea. He’s pro fracking, despite pushing out some weak sauce climate plan a few days ago. Like I said, he’ll make a couple small incremental improvements, just enough to duct tape the party back together for another 4 years, but I’m not sure if it will be enough long term. The Sanders wing of the party is growing, even in defeat, which means a lot during a time when its super easy for the establishment to say “look our hands are tied the gop control everything.” If/when Biden gets in there that excuse goes away, and the reluctance of the Democratic leadership to govern the way their base wants them to will be laid bare. And they won’t have a charismatic black guy to dress it up this time, they’ll have a bumbling old racist sexual harasser who’s basically a caricature of what’s wrong with US politics.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26826782 - 07/16/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
I personally like to play the long game and the president is a lighting rod for bad press. Even when Obama was doing a relatively decent job he still got made fun of for liking brown mustard. The optics of the position of president is one person and one branch, so it’s much easier to criticize. The result being that despite Obama doing an okay job the Republicans easily turned the other two branches. So, I guess I’d rather have Donnie J wasting away in the White House but have control of the other two branches. The only real hang up with that plan is the Supreme Court picks. Ruth isn’t well and she won’t make it another five years. That said, the recent rulings I’ve seen from the Supreme Court have been pretty good, so maybe the stacked lineup isn’t as bad as maybe I thought it was going to be. Anyways, holding the house and the senate I believe is the best way to represent the left in this country while letting the republican president continue to be the lightning rod that he is.

I do think Biden has a good chance of winning at this point. We might end up in option A whether we like it or not, at least we will get a decent Supreme Court pick.




The importance of the Supreme Court is pretty important considering the deficit of liberal judges at this point.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So here’s my question:

Is it better for the future of the left if:

A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party

Or

B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.



Maybe option C) is best:

C)  The left stays home, Trump wins re-elections, and the Democratic party realizes they might just have to start listening to the people, not their billionaiare donors, to win next time.

Meh, who am I kidding.  They'll always listen to their billionaire donors who got them where they are in the first place.




The test case for that scenario is 2016.

Clinton lost because she refused to move left, and what did the Democrats do for 2020? They nominated someone to the right of Hillary Clinton.

The Democrats understand the power dynamic but their donors would rather they lose than give the left power in the party. And that’s why the left is slowly but surely taking that power by force, against significant odds.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Vahn421]
    #26826791 - 07/16/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
A vote for Biden is a vote for Biden's VP.

This debate will change dramatically as soon as we know who the VP (A.K.A. the "actual" president.) will be.




I think that’s mostly right, except from the list of VP choices it’s clear the same people who own Biden own the VP, the ruling class just needs a solid continuation of the establishment agenda after Biden, and making practically anyone other than Bernie the VP does that, not only for 2020 but for 2024 as well, where the VP is the likely candidate.

People wondering why Biden doesn’t pick someone slightly to the left like Warren as VP and trying to get more of the Bernie vote, all but guaranteeing an election win in November, don’t understand that the VP is going to be someone they can use to steer people away from
The growing Bernie wing and back towards a socially liberal but fiscally conservative paradigm, that’s why Kamala Harris is a good pick for them.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26826801 - 07/16/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Her or Duckworth.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26827820 - 07/16/20 08:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Even Bari Weiss just quit the NY Times, saying they force everyone to conform to their "predetermined narrative".



Bari Weiss is a racist scumbag fuck her opinions.



I hate Bari Weiss, and I even made fun of her here.

But do you disagree with her opinion that the NY Times forces its journalists to a predetermined narrative?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26827848 - 07/16/20 09:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Five or six companies now control over 90% of the media.  The media could EASILY have made Bernie President if they were neutral,



The voters could have easily made Bernie President , were they not able to hear the words coming  out of his mouth or something ?

Why couldn’t Bernie convince people to like him ?



As qman correctly pointed out, "most people don't have the time or ability to thoroughly study each candidate and the issues." "Every time I turned on CNN or MSNBC they were attacking Bernie with false narratives. They scared people away from Bernie".

90% of the news that people read/hear comes from the mainstream media.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26828231 - 07/17/20 05:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

True but the mainstream media is mostly FOX based on ratings.


--------------------
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Brian Jones] * 1
    #26828545 - 07/17/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Brian Jones said:
True but the mainstream media is mostly FOX based on ratings.




Who also constantly attacked Bernie in a similar fashion, it was one of the few times CNN, MSNBC and FOX joined forces to attack a political candidate.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman]
    #26828713 - 07/17/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
True but the mainstream media is mostly FOX based on ratings.




Who also constantly attacked Bernie in a similar fashion, it was one of the few times CNN, MSNBC and FOX joined forces to attack a political candidate.




FOX allowed Bernie to come on more than once to explain his positions. They actually gave him a fair shake and were definitely more critical of his ideas than him as a person.

There was a poll somewhere, I'll have to dig for it, that says that most people on the right get 60% of their news from republican sources and 40% from democrat sources (most conservatives I know DO watch the news on the other side to see what's up.) With most centrists it's like 70% democrat sources and 30% conservative sources, due to the slant of the mainstream media.

And then with democrats and leftists, 90+% of the news they absorb and listen to is democratic.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 11:02 AM)


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828788 - 07/17/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
FOX allowed Bernie to come on more than once to explain his positions. They actually gave him a fair shake and were definitely more critical of his ideas than him as a person.



Ya, I actually gained a little respect for Fox because of this.

Fox is still bad just like the other mainstream sources.


--------------------
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26828806 - 07/17/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
FOX allowed Bernie to come on more than once to explain his positions. They actually gave him a fair shake and were definitely more critical of his ideas than him as a person.



Ya, I actually gained a little respect for Fox because of this.

Fox is still bad just like the other mainstream sources.




It's the least worst mainstream media source out there right now. My 2008 self would be flipping out at my 2020 self for saying that, but times change.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829603 - 07/17/20 06:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Brian Jones said:
True but the mainstream media is mostly FOX based on ratings.




Who also constantly attacked Bernie in a similar fashion, it was one of the few times CNN, MSNBC and FOX joined forces to attack a political candidate.




FOX allowed Bernie to come on more than once to explain his positions. They actually gave him a fair shake and were definitely more critical of his ideas than him as a person.

There was a poll somewhere, I'll have to dig for it, that says that most people on the right get 60% of their news from republican sources and 40% from democrat sources (most conservatives I know DO watch the news on the other side to see what's up.) With most centrists it's like 70% democrat sources and 30% conservative sources, due to the slant of the mainstream media.

And then with democrats and leftists, 90+% of the news they absorb and listen to is democratic.




What I'm saying is that since FOX is the highest rated news show of the mainstream media. it nonsensical to talk about "the slant of the mainstream media" implying that it's a liberal slant.

It reminds me of when my friend in grad school went home to Austria for the summer. When she returned I mentioned that our media was doing daily stories on Austrian President Kurt Waldheim being exposed as a former Nazi. She said she never heard that, and their press was focusing on American corporations selling baby organs in the 3rd world.

I seldom stray from streaming channels, but when I do turn on broadcast TV I watch MSNBC and Fox. I realize that MSNBC is biased, but I wouldn't say I'm getting any information from FOX because I think it's a joke.


--------------------
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26829616 - 07/17/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
First off, I fundamentally disagree with your initial axiom that Biden won't move left. Based on everything that I've seen, Biden has been veering sharply left for a while now. He's a party man, and he knows that he needs to follow the party.

That kinda fundamentally destroys both of the OP options, but I'll still give it a shot:

Biden elected, doesn't govern much, mostly leaves it to the experts and younger party members while occasionally pulling back on the leash.

I'd expect another one of the GOP's post mortems like in 2012 in which they talk about how they need to be less racist and less sexist, which they then promptly ignore. 2022 midterms become a litmus test on whether they can double down on the racism or not. Assuming they lose those, I could see the GOP fracturing into a far right nationalist/white supremacists branch, and a piece that joins the Democrats. I could see the left wing element of the Democrats also splitting off around this time.

If Biden plays his cards right, I could see 2024 and 2028 both going democrat, likely whoever Biden picks as VP this year. I think Biden's VP will be groomed as the next candidate.




I agree with most of this, especially the part about the direction of the next GOP pivot affecting the future of the Democrats, and the left, as well. But I don’t see Biden making any genuine moves to the left. He won’t even come out in support of legalization, something that 2/3rds of Americans support AND a policy position that will excite younger voters (the demo he’s worst with in enthusiasm). He’s shunned M4A and proposed choosing a Republican VP. He’s attacking Trump from the right on foreign policy by saying trump is being too nice to Russia China Venezuela and North Korea. He’s pro fracking, despite pushing out some weak sauce climate plan a few days ago. Like I said, he’ll make a couple small incremental improvements, just enough to duct tape the party back together for another 4 years, but I’m not sure if it will be enough long term. The Sanders wing of the party is growing, even in defeat, which means a lot during a time when its super easy for the establishment to say “look our hands are tied the gop control everything.” If/when Biden gets in there that excuse goes away, and the reluctance of the Democratic leadership to govern the way their base wants them to will be laid bare. And they won’t have a charismatic black guy to dress it up this time, they’ll have a bumbling old racist sexual harasser who’s basically a caricature of what’s wrong with US politics.




I see your point, yes, but I still think it is somewhat disingenuous. Here we have to get into party politics as well as personal politics, and distinguish between the two. The difference here is one of ideological consistency, from a party perspective.

In essence: Hillary Clinton and Obama had fundamentally the same policy positions, and I see those same policy positions in Biden. Bush Jr, Mitt Romney, and Donald Trump have almost identical policy positions as well.

But that statement doesn't really feel right, does it? After reading it, you probably feel the urge to find evidence to the contrary. I will admit there is some. Not much, but yes, there are some minor surface level differences in their politics. Overall, though, they are ideologically congruent.

Now, here's the kicker: if you were to ask Plumber's Crack Joe, College Kid Chad, and Professional Bob a series of political questions, then ask those same political questions of Biden, Obama, Clinton, Bush Jr, Romney, and President Tweety, you'll find that the democratic candidates are universally farther left than the regular schmoes, and the republican candidates are universally farther right. From a party perspective.

That's the theoretical academic level answer. What does it mean in real life?

Well, first, you have to account for the average person. Here on the politics subforum, we are not the "average person". Not even close. We can pretend we are, but we have deeply held political beliefs which we argue to the exclusion of other distractions, like family, friends, netflix, TV, video games, weed, hiking, [insert hobby here]. Most people aren;t like that. Most people have other shit going on, and politics is simply not a priority. Do I agree with the mindset of "I'm not really into politics"? No. It's a stupid mindset akin to burying your head in the sand. Do I recognize the inherent value of that mindset? Yes. So does Biden.

Thing is, that mindset allows someone to hold fairly incongruent political beliefs. For example, a white non-college-educated worker is very likely opposed to immigration of any sort, but at the same time very economically liberal, and supportive of things like UBI and M4A. On the other hand, a highly educated professional doesn't give a rat's ass about immigration, and likely supports it, but would prefer lower taxes and other fiscal conservative policies, and definitely doesn't care about UBI or M4A. This should make pretty logical sense: uneducated laborers are economically threatened by immigrants, and simultaneously are at the bottom of the economic totem pole, which means they want more "leftist" support. Educated professionals are not even remotely threatened by immigrants, and UBI/M4A is just a drop in the bucket for them, while taxes are a real factor.

Now, how do we reconcile these two realities: the political reality and the, well, average idiot reality?

I will split this into two parts: messaging and ideology.

First, the importance of messaging/electability, is that you need to have a message that resonates with a majority of voters. This largely relies on stereotypes. We all know that "Republicans are fiscally responsible" is a bad joke, but Plumber's Crack Joe doesn't. Republicans are seen as the stern father figure that smacks your hand away from the cookie jar. That image excels on the "law and order" front, it excels on the anti-immigration front, and it looks like sober fiscal austerity. At the same time, democrats are the party of empathy, trust, and helping out the fellow man no matter the cost. So, based on these stereotypes, the election hinges on the national zeitgeist. Do we need more stern father figures slapping our hands, or do we need more empathy? Trump, in 2016, ran a campaign on racism and anti-immigration sentiment, and managed to control the narrative in a way that those were the primary considerations of the zeitgeist. The economic message didn't matter, empathy for the fellow man didn't matter, it was all about immigrants stealing yer jerbs. Of course, being that a strong anti-immigration stance is associated with republicans, he won.

Now, from an ideology perspective, we need to look at how national ideology and national ethos changes. This is where I think Bernie lost, why I think Bernie should have lost (strategically, not personally), and fundamentally why I think Bernie's loss was incredibly important. As an example, let's look at gay marriage. Now, gay marriage was politically unthinkable until roughly the 1980s. Around the 1980s, public support slightly increased, to the point where some people thought it might be okay. Then it steadily continued to increase, until it became a mainstream political topic in the mid-late 2000s. At that point, support actually began to drop, as it was a politically divisive topic. Few years later, it continued a steady increase until it was legalized not that long ago, around the time it had overwhelming majority support. Before that, it didn't have much support, even from the politicians that were instrumental in legalizing gay marriage.

So what does this mean in terms of modern politics? Well, messaging and ideology combine into a balancing act: You can go towards the ideological end, where the 10% of the population of people like us resides, and get instant support by going far left/far right. This has two effects: it amplifies and popularizes your message, while simultaneously making yourself unelectable. This is why Bernie and Yang were so important. They were the fresh meat going into the meat grinder. They were the charge of the light brigade. They were the men you send on a one way mission, knowing they won't come back, so they can buy time for the main force. Between Bernie, Yang, and Covid-19, UBI is now a political player, instead of being such a fringe movement that it was considered a joke. They got it from 2% support to 30% support. Not electable by any means, but within the common discourse. Overton Window.

Biden is the opposite of that. Biden is the electable candidate that takes middle-of-the-road positions, and uses the zeitgeist to maneuver politics in his favor. He's the electable candidate, not the activist candidate. The activist candidate wins the battle but loses the war. The electable candidate may lose the battle to win the war.

However, the electable candidate is often politically savvy enough to pivot with the times. Obama never openly supported gay marriage when he got elected, but he presided over the legalization of gay marriage. Do I know his personal opinions? No. You don't either. I suspect, however, that he personally didn;t give much of a fuck either way since it didn;t really affect him personally. He just played the political game and worked within the zeitgeist of the times. I expect Biden will do the same. Depending on how Covid shakes out, Biden might well preside over the implementation of both UBI and M4A, all due to the sacrifices of Bernie and Yang.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26833270 - 07/19/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So here’s my question:

Is it better for the future of the left if:

A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party

Or

B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.





I'm usually an accelerationist - but to a point. Looking at the rate of decay for democracy in the USA throughout Trump’s first-term, I don't think the nation could recover from a second one. You've already reached the point of secret state police kidnapping citizens off the street and intentionally cruel concentration camps built to hold undesirables - four more years to solidify their grasp on these authoritarian powers?

Especially when so many people seem to still think Trump is just an aberration to the system. Over and over again I've seen people put their faith in what amounts to human-representatives of the state and it's supposed check-and-balances. It's this insidious idea that 'the system works' and will self-correct from abuse of authority and corruption - when the reality is that our system of ruthless capitalism, built on a foundation of white supremacy, is working exactly as intended. Putting our hope in pseudo-heroes like Mueller (as if the FBI has ever been our ally...) or Fauci only allows us to be placated while we wait for things to be fixed on their own - until it's too late for us to fix these things ourselves. Hope like this is poison.

How do we kill that hope? I think Biden getting elected, and people finding that nothing significantly changes, will go further towards killing off this paralyzing hope than Trump getting reelected; because Trump is just creeping fascism that likely won't instigate a proper revolutionary response until its too late to avoid significant violence, whereas Biden might just be disappointing enough to cause a fundamental shift away from the 2-party system or the electoral process entirely.

Let the electoral'left' get what they were told to want, realize it's empty of all substance, and then maybe we'll all start dreaming about what we want togethe and how to get it no matter how many Trumps or Biden try to stand in the way.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26833320 - 07/19/20 09:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

because Trump is just creeping fascism




HA.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26833361 - 07/19/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So here’s my question:

Is it better for the future of the left if:

A) The left turns out for Biden to win, govern like a typical right wing Democrat, further alienating the base, and awakening/expanding the Bernie wing of the party

Or

B) The left stays home, Trump wins re-election, and the Democratic base is forced to stare itself in the mirror for another 4 years.





I'm usually an accelerationist - but to a point. Looking at the rate of decay for democracy in the USA throughout Trump’s first-term, I don't think the nation could recover from a second one. You've already reached the point of secret state police kidnapping citizens off the street and intentionally cruel concentration camps built to hold undesirables - four more years to solidify their grasp on these authoritarian powers?

Especially when so many people seem to still think Trump is just an aberration to the system. Over and over again I've seen people put their faith in what amounts to human-representatives of the state and it's supposed check-and-balances. It's this insidious idea that 'the system works' and will self-correct from abuse of authority and corruption - when the reality is that our system of ruthless capitalism, built on a foundation of white supremacy, is working exactly as intended. Putting our hope in pseudo-heroes like Mueller (as if the FBI has ever been our ally...) or Fauci only allows us to be placated while we wait for things to be fixed on their own - until it's too late for us to fix these things ourselves. Hope like this is poison.

How do we kill that hope? I think Biden getting elected, and people finding that nothing significantly changes, will go further towards killing off this paralyzing hope than Trump getting reelected; because Trump is just creeping fascism that likely won't instigate a proper revolutionary response until its too late to avoid significant violence, whereas Biden might just be disappointing enough to cause a fundamental shift away from the 2-party system or the electoral process entirely.

Let the electoral'left' get what they were told to want, realize it's empty of all substance, and then maybe we'll all start dreaming about what we want togethe and how to get it no matter how many Trumps or Biden try to stand in the way.




I agree that frustration with Biden in office would likely produce the ingredients for real change more so than Trump at this point.

Obama got lots of cover from progressives for almost his whole term, but I don't think Biden will be given that luxury.

Honestly, I don't think Trump wants anymore of this shit storm and Biden isn't very thrilled about being US President either, who would want it today?


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: qman]
    #26833381 - 07/19/20 10:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hillary.  :smirk:


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26834186 - 07/20/20 12:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Even Bari Weiss just quit the NY Times, saying they force everyone to conform to their "predetermined narrative".



Bari Weiss is a racist scumbag fuck her opinions.



I hate Bari Weiss, and I even made fun of her here.

But do you disagree with her opinion that the NY Times forces its journalists to a predetermined narrative?




That’s not really her complaint though. It’s that she got bullied out of the NYT for having too radical of an opinion on certain things. She’s a rich Zionist with dogshit opinions on practically everything, including culture. She fit in perfectly at the NYT, she voluntarily left to (likely) go start a new publication with Andrew Sullivan and Ben Shapiro, this “the ultra woke left ruined my life” shtick is just an excuse.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26835172 - 07/20/20 10:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
That’s not really her complaint though.



It's not all of her complaint, I agree.  But it was definitely part of it.  From the resignation letter I linked to:
Quote:

I was always taught that journalists were charged with writing the first rough draft of history. Now, history itself is one more ephemeral thing molded to fit the needs of a predetermined narrative.




--------------------
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26835835 - 07/21/20 10:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

shes lying


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26835859 - 07/21/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

These establishment shitheads glom on to institutional power and then, when they see an opportunity, they leave that power structure and make themselves a bunch of money complaining about how unfair and bad it was.

It’s no different than the ex cabinet members all writing a book about the dangers of Trump (that they incidentally promoted and accelerated until that was no longer profitable for them), and then taking a CNN gig.


Y’all need to stop taking these assholes at their word simply because their new shtick reinforces your beliefs. Do I think the NYT is biased and bad? Yes. Am I gonna go to bat for fucking Bari Weiss because they didn’t advocate the ethnic cleansing of Palestine vigorously enough? No.


This will happen again in a few months when John Kasich speaks at the DNC against the dangers of Trump. And all the liberals will cheer on this guy who obliterated Planned Parenthood in Ohio and devastated unions, simply for saying orange man bad. And the bigger point here is that KASICH DOESNT EVEN HATE TRUMP. Kasich is just playing his best hand, which is at this point doing the “sane moderate never trumper.” It’s no different than what Bari is doing. She doesn’t honestly believe the NYT is some ultra left rag hellbent on silencing conservatives, they have multiple columnists to her right. She’s just doing it because this excuse gets her clout with the “liberal media is fake news” contingent.

So please don’t defend this fucking maniac or give her an ounce of credibility simply because she said orange man NYT bad.


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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26835963 - 07/21/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Do I think the NYT is biased and bad? Yes.



That's really what I was trying to show.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Am I gonna go to bat for fucking Bari Weiss because they didn’t advocate the ethnic cleansing of Palestine vigorously enough? No.



I wouldn't "go to bat" for that cunt either.  You totally misinterpreted my post. 

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So please don’t defend this fucking maniac or give her an ounce of credibility simply because she said orange man NYT bad.



Dude, I'm not defending HER.  I'm defending ONE thing she said.


People need to read my signature.  To me, just because I hate Bari Weiss (and Tucker Carlson, and Donald Trump), that doesn't mean I won't defend them on any good points they have.  I realize that puts me in a small minority here.


--------------------
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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26836008 - 07/21/20 12:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And I’m trying to explain that the utility of doing that only helps the Weisses and Carlsons of the world. I’m pretty sure shiva has echoed similar sentiments.

I can see the advantage of giving your racist right wing coworker kudos for making a solid point, and then trying to build off the common ground you’ve laid. Trust me, I live in the South that’s all I have for making somewhat civil political discourse IRL. But it does no good to punch sideways at the NYT or the media in general at the behest of right wing charlatans like this.

How many people out there believe the heir to the Swanson Foods dynasty is some everyman populist because they see folks like you (a lefty, therefore a credible voice when praising Carlson) defending him?

How many people think the IDW have legitimate grievances, and are therefore ideologically sound and worth listening to, because lefties defend Weiss and Harris and Shapiro when they call out PC culture or liberal media?

It’s really not hard to just call Bari Weiss a lying scumbag and be done with it.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Posts: 33,362
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26836013 - 07/21/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I could just as easily roam history message boards explaining that the Treaty of Versailles primed a downtrodden Germany with a reason to be xenophobic, say that (traditionally) Jewish bankers had capitalized on this, etc, and I’d be historically accurate. But what’s the utility? Am I successfully convincing folks that there’s more to the rise of Hitler than what is typically discussed? Or am I just alienating liberals by coming across as a weirdo Hitler fan AND giving rhetorical ammo to the actual Hitler fans?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26836094 - 07/21/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
And I’m trying to explain that the utility of doing that only helps the Weisses and Carlsons of the world. I’m pretty sure shiva has echoed similar sentiments.



But you came across as defending the NY Times, until your later clarification, just I came across as defending Bari Weiss until mine.

Both of these perceptions have been clarified, and we can move on, with the added bonus that we both have made it clear we feel the NY Times is shit.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
How many people out there believe the heir to the Swanson Foods dynasty is some everyman populist because they see folks like you (a lefty, therefore a credible voice when praising Carlson) defending him?



Not me, and hopefully no one, now that we've both explained/clarified.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
It’s really not hard to just call Bari Weiss a lying scumbag and be done with it.



Bari Weiss IS a scumbag.  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,362
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Re: Regarding the Left’s Moral Conundrum of Voting Biden [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26836116 - 07/21/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Whether you like Bari Weiss or not you’re still coming to her defense. There’s 5000 ways to criticize the culture of the NYT editorial board without doing that.


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