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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated?
    #26820002 - 07/12/20 07:43 PM (2 months, 6 days ago)

Despite the “noble savage” myth, humans are not always natural conservationists. In Paleolithic and Neolithic times, there was plenty of environmental impact – but it didn’t matter because the populations were so small. Illegal logging, animal poaching, Amazonian destruction, air/water/soil pollution, species loss, toxic waste, climate change, etc., etc – these are some very catastrophic problems today, but if there were only, say, fifty million people on Earth, we could get away with the very same behaviors we have today, and it wouldn’t matter. But when people say that 8 billion is not too many and let’s add some more, it seems peculiar to me.

This planet is drastically overpopulated with humans, and if it weren’t, none of the above problems would have any meaning. Gentle use is quite a fantasy if we’re going to hit ten billion souls by 2050, anyway. Some say we can all live sustainably, but I am at a complete loss as to how. It is extremely unlikely that we will change our behaviors in time.

The point is: The population level is the fundamental variable here. There is no way to comprehensively and successfully adapt the global situation to it, and there is no real solution if people are to live, obviously. So an absolutely horrendous mess is what we’ve got here.

Humans cannot be trusted over time to live sustainably. So too many are too many.


I certainly do not advocate genocide in order to bring numbers down. I do advocate making every effort to give those alive the best shot possible. I also advocate taking responsibility for our species’ actions and limiting number of offspring produced. I am not under any illusions that much will change.

Let me be clear: I am not proposing there is a solution. I am just trying to give an honest diagnosis of the real crisis.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26820125 - 07/12/20 09:42 PM (2 months, 6 days ago)

oddly I feel new york is not too crowded, while toronto is too crowded


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26820548 - 07/13/20 07:50 AM (2 months, 6 days ago)

From a perspective of mold on a banana peel I wouldn't concern myself about sustainabity, we can't have our cake and eat it too. 'Carrying capacity' is the real issue (imo)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26820689 - 07/13/20 10:09 AM (2 months, 6 days ago)

You make an excellent point. And we are engaged in a tremendous mockery of everything carrying capacity means. Now, when population grows and pushes up against available resources, a society must intensify its production. Examples of this would be planting crops, domesticating animals, instituting an irrigation system, etc. So history is really the story of a series of major intensifications of the mode of production over time.

Now, in about 1830, the industrial revolution represented the greatest intensification project in history. This came right on the heels of a huge population explosion. This was like pouring kerosene on a fire.

Once you get to the twentieth century, and eventually to factory farming, it's like setting off an atomic bomb. It's sort of like what caused the economic crash in 2008. Everything was leveraged to the hilt, and the bottom dropped out. Well, modern civilization has everything leveraged to the hilt.

The carrying capacity of this planet, with no intensification, is something like a few tens of millions, they know what it is but I forget. It has been flaunted and violated for about 8,000 years. So, with the leveraging I talked about, any one of a number of major crises could break things up. And of course we know of several of these crises throughout history.

If, say, the soils started to fail for some unimaginable ecological reason, factory farming would fail, and literally billions of people would die. Now, a failure of the soil would ruin any society, true. But we wouldn't be talking about billions.

So you are quite right, carrying capacity is a fundamental variable, and we're so far beyond it that if some domino falls somewhere, we could be cooked. A pandemic would look like a picnic.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26820748 - 07/13/20 10:51 AM (2 months, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

So you are quite right, carrying capacity is a fundamental variable, and we're so far beyond it...




U.S wheat production presently supports two or three times the U.S population. As it stands practically no one is involved in subsidising their daily rations with home-grown nutrients (present company excepted), so I think there is plenty of room for expansion.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26820971 - 07/13/20 12:49 PM (2 months, 6 days ago)

You're right, with sufficiently powerful technology we can give ourselves extraordinary powers to coerce nature. I say coerce because we do not really control nature. Which leads me to my next point: what if some unforeseen depletion occurs for which our technological methods cannot provide a solution? It's happened many times in history, and has been one of the reasons civilizations collapse.

I know I'm saying "what if," and you're pointing out existing successes. My only real point with modern intensification is that it's definitely a house of cards, and subject to crises. We have not risen above the ecology of the planet, we have only, as I say, drastically leveraged it. So the notion of natural carrying capacity is not dead yet.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26821120 - 07/13/20 02:23 PM (2 months, 6 days ago)

Expanded horizons produced by technology may prove to be the means by which this mold escapes this husk of banana peel and moves on to another one. Indeed the spread of our spores across the rest of the fruits in the Universe insures survival when unforeseen catastrophes occur.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26821459 - 07/13/20 05:45 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

That's true, presuming that's what should happen. But the situation on Earth right now is extraordinarily complex, and nothing is guaranteed.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26827781 - 07/16/20 09:31 PM (2 months, 2 days ago)

I guess an important distinction is optimal vs maximum in terms of population. It’s like the chicken factory farms sure you can raise thousands of hens on top of each other but they aren’t living “fulfilling” chicken lives.


We could probably pack many many times our current population onto this planet if we are seeking efficiency but that may not be healthy for the overall human experience.

This video discusses a cool experiment with rats that might be worth bringing into the discussion. [url=http://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5m7X-1V9nOs]http://
/url]


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: GandalfSon]
    #26828393 - 07/17/20 09:08 AM (2 months, 2 days ago)

An optimal life/condition is chemically dependent, as any psychiatrist will tell you.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: GandalfSon]
    #26828506 - 07/17/20 10:15 AM (2 months, 2 days ago)

Interesting video. It seems like a mouse Lord of the Flies. I would point out that, despite all the rigorous protocols, this experiment is essentially an unnatural situation for mice. Mice evolved to live in burrows in the wild, so trying to get optimal behavioral patterns out of them in a laboratory setting may, logically, be doomed to failure anyway.

In precisely the same vein, our overcrowded modern cities and slums are about as far from natural as humans can get from their evolutionary setting. So in either case, I don't think we can expect a pristine situation or outcome for either humans or mice.

Imo, even if we could support everyone lavishly (which we cannot), 8 billion just seems like too many of a particular breed. Everywhere you go on Earth it's crowded now. Too many of one species, whatever that species be, is too many. I believe I read that only 23% of the planet is now wilderness, and that includes the oceans.

And of course there are a slew of other reasons why the population explosion is causing a lot of crises. But if the mice have anything to say about it, not only are we a very long way from utopia -- even in the most perfect conditions, utopia isn't possible in principle.


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InvisibleTulipslave
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26829490 - 07/17/20 06:40 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
From a perspective of mold on a banana peel I wouldn't concern myself about sustainabity, we can't have our cake and eat it too. 'Carrying capacity' is the real issue (imo)






i like this.  everything dies, depending on the scale of time


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26829497 - 07/17/20 06:47 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

Personally I don't think the earth is over populated with humans.

As far as a biomass goes we are but a speck of an organism with ample resource to maintain a population far greater.

The answers lay not in how many of us there are but how with so few of us we can create such a disaster.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/science-and-health/2018/5/29/17386112/all-life-on-earth-chart-weight-plants-animals-pnas


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Edited by pineninja (07/17/20 06:50 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26829555 - 07/17/20 07:28 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

So your argument is that we can raise the standard of living for everyone and host ten billion people sustainably at an ample standard of living.

I respectfully do not believe this is possible, and if it is possible, when is it going to be done and how?


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26829586 - 07/17/20 07:46 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

Defenitly not everyone.. there would be a few who would have  less... but many many more who would have more.

I think overpopulation is a convenient strawman placed atop a very tall stick.
An unassailable problem and a convenient excuse.

It is the minority that creates the majority of waste.
There are many examples of sustainable living around the world though they generate little media with little to sell.

We have more than enough resources to have a common standard of living across the globe.
Inequality means the true middle is not realised.

You're right that with unchecked behaviours and an inevitable increase in population were likely screwed.
Though you do seem to be looking for solutions.
The population increase is likely unchangeable and a distraction if looking for change.
Maybe focusing on the most fluid part of the problem...our behaviours could be an option.


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Edited by pineninja (07/17/20 07:49 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26829650 - 07/17/20 08:29 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

Well said.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26829798 - 07/17/20 10:21 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

I get uneasy when 'Standard of Living' is compared to quality; after all a short disease free existence of a gadfly can be thought to have greater purpose and meaning than all of civilization with it's social orders that depend on living wages for auto workers and dairymen so that the cream can enjoy cottage cheese while inventing new ways of enslavement.

In what way does 'standard of living' improve the life experience of a gypsy for example other than to enslave them to what can amount to a pyramid scheme?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26829822 - 07/17/20 10:41 PM (2 months, 1 day ago)

I don't think Standard of Living is a fair criteria when comparing apples and oranges, if you see what I mean.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26830316 - 07/18/20 09:08 AM (2 months, 1 day ago)

I have no quarrel with that point. As you say, there is no social or economic law tying standard of living to happiness. I guess I could revise my statement to say that everyone should at least have access to clean drinking water, a balanced diet and sanitary conditions. According to a statistic I just looked up, about 780 million people don't have access to a clean water source, and 2.5 billion are victims of inadequate sanitation, both of which of course routinely lead to serious health problems and diseases. So to that extent, I feel a satisfactory basic standard of living must be necessary.

So I agree with you, with a qualifier. There is no one to one relationship between material "standard of living" and happiness and well-being. On the other hand, we can also use the term to apply to basic health and sanitation factors, and I think we can all agree that these are sorely lacking in many places in the world. So it's a complicated picture.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26830466 - 07/18/20 10:47 AM (2 months, 1 day ago)

Objectively, 'Clean' and 'Adequate' can be subject to verification. Personally I prefer sponging off with vinegar rather than bathing with water. That this method has prevented malaise that 40 years of soap & water could not prevail against is a matter of personal referenc. Personal or subjective estimates are then commonly held to be objectively true. Apparently filtered water whatever it's source is clean.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26830557 - 07/18/20 11:48 AM (2 months, 1 day ago)

Well I take your point, but the world is currently undergoing a water crisis, so it's not just about unlimited water sources that can be cleaned, but in most cases the absence of any potable water at all. Water shortages are a thing all over the world, filterable or not.

On the other hand, your previous argument that standard of living is not an objective measure of well being certainly applies here. There could be water shortages in Phoenix and Dubai just as easily as Calcutta or Mumbai. So perhaps this is a broader topic. In any case there are millions without enough water, and without water that is really treatable or drinkable.

As I say, in thirty years or so standard of living will have nothing to do with the water crisis. So perhaps I have created a tangent of sorts.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26831326 - 07/18/20 07:31 PM (2 months, 21 hours ago)

Potable water shortage is generally an issue because industry has taken the large majority.
In most developed nations drinking water is under 5 percent of the use.

A population crisis with today's technology only needs to be 2 people and a couple of buttons.

The behaviors and the dangers they pose overtook (in an urgency sense) had dramatically increased post the industrial revolution...and especially now in the nuclear age.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26831482 - 07/18/20 09:31 PM (2 months, 19 hours ago)

I found a primer on removing radio active pollutants from water at Forbes


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26832835 - 07/19/20 05:27 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

You mention the developed world. Clearly, with the affordability of technology and water treatment, this is not a serious problem overall, at least right now. (Although the Western U.S. in the next thirty to forty years will have a real crisis on its hands).

But in the developing world, water is a problem in a lot of places, not just with impurities and pollutants, but even having access to any at all. And the infrastructure is just not there to improve things quickly, hence the 780 million without safe drinking water.

Anyway, given climate change, so far the planet is becoming drier in many places inland, and desertification is taking place all over, but who knows what will happen. Add two or three billion more, and water is even more precious (and scarce).

In any case, we have oceans. If we really wanted inexpensive, high-volume desalination technologies, I think we could have them. But that's pretty low on the list for most countries, the vast majority of whom simply can't afford it right now.

Water aside, I still say eight billion is too many for a gentle impact. And I'm sure you guys can see as well as I can the various categories where variables are starting to spin out of control: climate change, species loss, plastic pollution, etc., etc. I know we can in principle clean this up, but when? Under whose global initiative? All things do is get worse. And I attribute this to a ballooning population. I respect the opinions of, but do not understand, those who do not.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26833023 - 07/19/20 07:26 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

So which is it Politics or Population?

The difference geography alone doesn't account for the vast disparity between outcomes both on an individual level and a planetary one.

We've not yet desalinated en mass simply because of economics.
Once again political.
I don't think it would be invalid to suggest we have the resources to build if we really wanted to.

When?
Well I think we could be closer to moving forward to solutions if we stopped whacking on about an unchanging increasing population....other than to aknowledge it and help it propel a much needed changed in behaviours.

If you do not start a conversation with your hopes and dreams (your utopia...... my utopia ) where then does the inevitable conciliatory centre fall.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26833048 - 07/19/20 07:49 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
So which is it Politics or Population?
where then does the inevitable conciliatory centre fall.




I'm hoping A.I will prove a capable minder where human intelligence fails.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26833049 - 07/19/20 07:50 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

I agree that we need to accept the fact that by 2050 there could be over 10 billion people here, and act accordingly. What I wonder is whether there is any sustainable way to accommodate this even in principle. There may be a solution and there may be no solution at all. Taking a look at third world countries right now does not afford much encouragement, imo.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26833050 - 07/19/20 07:50 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
So which is it Politics or Population?
where then does the inevitable conciliatory centre fall.




I'm hoping A.I will prove a capable minder where human intelligence fails.





Me too.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26833107 - 07/19/20 08:36 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

There is a subjective aspect to it, so with that in mind I feel the Earth is overpopulated. It's true that with proper stewardship we could keep the environment clean, but that hasn't happened. Theoretical vs reality.

There's the availability of isolation. I live within an hour of the mountains. When I was a kid you might see a few people depending on where you went. And that's cool because the resources are there for everyone, but these days I don't go as often because the mountains are literally crawling with people now. There are rules/laws that prohibit fishing, swimming, where you can go on dry land, where you can camp at night. Everyone is herded through the mountains like it's an amusement park ride.

There's bio-diversity. The primary mover of loss of bio-diversity is loss of habitat. Except for protected areas it's mostly farm land and 45% angles now, unless you count the tundra and deserts.

There's long term projections for resource availability. Everything is plentiful now but how about 200, 500, 5000 years from now? Without a new and unlimited fuel source to mine the solar system we'll be in deep shit at some point. If there were only 500 million people, we wouldn't need to worry as much. Instead of asking where we will be in 5000 years, we would be asking where we will be in 80,000 years. It's much more likely we can make up the resource gap in that time frame.

There are other factors, but that should be enough to show that the reality of the situation is much more important than "potential" or "how things could be if..."

500 million people spread out across the globe and we could all live like kings while not taking extreme measures to protect the rest of nature.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26833143 - 07/19/20 08:53 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

i miss wilderness,
driving to find it is too manic and crowded


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26833180 - 07/19/20 09:18 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Imagine the dangers of being born into a system that automatically assumes you wanted it and disallowed dissenting voices as naive.......oh hang on.

Some people drive those very same cars of cliffs.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26833659 - 07/20/20 06:45 AM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Johnny's dissent revolves around dissembling lawn mowers on the kitchen table, and Jenny's about practicing nuclear physics in the basement; so the crux is personal space and patience. Untill I have self-healing walls and floors I need to learn walk around other people's messes which might include feces on the walls and pee on the floor. Impossible! So we coerce each other with rules and agreements for our sensual benefits and emotional stability so we don't fly off the handle and commit atrocities like poisoning Johnny and Jenny along with the fleas.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26842569 - 07/24/20 12:59 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
There is a subjective aspect to it, so with that in mind I feel the Earth is overpopulated. ...




.    indeed seems subjective and in my mind the question cannot be separated from the issue of poverty, and quality of life.
.    Also having some little knowledge of ecosystems and biology we know that as population expands, wildlife, wilderness, and ecosystems are all gradually destroyed and replaced with pollution of all types, which eventually degrade the quality of life

Here are some links that just show images, no need to read anything. I'm linking 'cause its easier, than copying & pasting, and allows for more browsing, of multiple images, when one scrolls. I have skipped images of pollution and industry, as they are more familiar.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=kumba+mela+festival+in+2019&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mecca+pilgrimage&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=living+in+a+dump+in+India&t=hk&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=displacement+camps+in+Africa&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=100+mega+cities%2C+skyscrapers%2C+photos+&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/23164372/thumb/1.jpg

https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/china-street-shutterstock_157021067-620x414.jpg


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.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26842614 - 07/24/20 01:39 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

pop growth seems to drive Real estate prices up

if pop growth stops, however, there will still be real estate pressure to higher prices in cities like Toronto.
why?

climate change resiliance,
political 'calm' - relatively,
'fresh' water - more or less naturally,
racial 'modernism' - melting pot society,
low covid death - semi-sane health care, and many mask wearers.

but to be honest, I think Homelessness is on the rise, here, and we need to have lower priced lodgings, and food, and social support to better serve that cohort.

Possibly, homelessness is a reflection of overpopulation. the state of  falling through the cracks in the system or of being squeezed out of one's tenuous niche.

And that's just it! as we get more population the lowest common denominator for the majority leaves a growing minority that cannot work with lowest common denominations.
The fringe types (like myself) have little in common with the center of the bell curve people, and the bell curve is dauntingly homogeneous. 
Big cities, by having more variety, are a bit more hospitable to weirdos and homeless, but it is still a problem.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26842640 - 07/24/20 01:52 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


Possibly, homelessness is a reflection of overpopulation. the state of  falling through the cracks in the system or of being squeezed out of one's tenuous niche.






.    And then there is automation, & as a result, fewer jobs, then less income, then poorer education. Just as with the virus, and climate change all these things compound one another and an exponential  growth curve results.
.    More homeless then more despair, then more hard drug use, poorer hygiene, more kids that aren't properly cared for.
.    Basically the whole system is broken. Short term you are probably well situated to be in Canada.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26850494 - 07/28/20 07:46 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

We could only sustain a higher population if

- Everyone went vegan: This would free up a massive amount of land for reforestation and save a lot of water. It is far easier to feed people plants only than meat and dairy as well, as 65 billion herbivores killed a year need a LOT of crops and water, also requires a lot of transportation and produces a lot of waste (ignoring the trillions of marine animals)

-We transformed our energy usage: Fossil fuels just wont last, renewables or nuclear seems the way to go.

Obstacles? People don't like change. You ask someone to stop eating meat or dairy and it's like you've punched them in the face, the reality is meat is a symbol of social class amongst many nations, it's also very tasty and affordable due to government subsidies. There's BIG money in this industry, people aren't going to give it up overnight. As for fossil fuels, also big money and already well established, try convincing a politician with their pockets deep in fossil fuel money to invest in renewables. Fat chance.

Reality is we'll probably reach a point where these things become physically unsustainable, or die off in big numbers. I don't want that to happen (dying), but we can't have our cake and eat it.


Edited by AcidGandalf (07/28/20 07:47 PM)


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26850686 - 07/28/20 09:19 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Why would we want to sustain a higher population? There are plenty of people around. As Rahz said, the subjective element exists -- subjectively, it just feels like there are too many of us. Anywhere you go, there are a lot of people. Appealing purely to natural principle, this many humans is an imbalance, and it has ramifications all over the place, many of which have been discussed in this thread, which has not at all been exhaustive.

Also, as far as going vegan -- appealing to natural principle once again, this would be anomalous and unnatural. Homo sapiens eats meat, just like wolves and tigers. Yes, we can get the required nutrients from certain well-constructed vegan diets, why go to the trouble? Meat is much more calorically effective. Instead of responsibly limiting our population we'll outlaw eating meat? As you suggest, that probably wouldn't fly. But I don't think the point is really whether we eat meat or not.

I'm not sure at what point we'll die off in big numbers, probably eventually, but I think there will indeed be a lot of pain.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26850723 - 07/28/20 09:38 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

What’s the supposedly “ideal” human population - the one that’s best for the planet, other species, and all humans in general?


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850742 - 07/28/20 09:51 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I would say one in which there is no misery, that is sustainable for the planet and not wantonly destructive. Without doing it exactly perfectly, 8 billion is not that. And we're a long way from perfect.

We are not separate from the planet. This seems too easily overlooked.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26850769 - 07/28/20 10:09 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

1804 is when wiki says the pop. was last about 1 billion.  I’d like to time travel and check it out for a while if I could hop back and forth between now & then freely.  Then again, if we went back to 1804 and did something to make sure the population didn’t grow past 1 billion - who knows what the implications would be / how history would have unfolded all the way up from then and until the present day.  It’s a real serious & tricky problem.  Considering we can’t ethically get rid of 6 billion people - the idea of drastically curtailing & controlling the population seems largely ineffectual.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850936 - 07/29/20 12:26 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
1804 is when wiki says the pop. was last about 1 billion.  I’d like to time travel and check it out for a while if I could hop back and forth between now & then freely.  Then again, if we went back to 1804 and did something to make sure the population didn’t grow past 1 billion - who knows what the implications would be / how history would have unfolded all the way up from then and until the present day.  It’s a real serious & tricky problem.  Considering we can’t ethically get rid of 6 billion people - the idea of drastically curtailing & controlling the population seems largely ineffectual.




.  This is where fiction writers (& movie makers) have an advantage over the rest of us. (Of course, we all already know, personal circumstances, age, and location, always determine our perception of reality, more than the historical milieu. A bad divorce or getting crippled can cast a dark shadow over all one's plans and hopes regardless of the historical time, visa versa falling in love can make any world seem brighter, for awhile...)...

.  One of my fantasies was to be an anthropologist. Perhaps living with other cultures is even more exciting than time traveling in one's own imagination, or writing fiction? Certainly many native cultures live in relatively smaller and more rural groups.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


Edited by laughingdog (07/29/20 12:28 AM)


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26850937 - 07/29/20 12:28 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

No doubt!  Just living in another country or among other cultures for a time is eye opening & makes me feel even more complete.  It’s properly psychedelic.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26851437 - 07/29/20 10:17 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
1804 is when wiki says the pop. was last about 1 billion.  I’d like to time travel and check it out for a while if I could hop back and forth between now & then freely.  Then again, if we went back to 1804 and did something to make sure the population didn’t grow past 1 billion - who knows what the implications would be / how history would have unfolded all the way up from then and until the present day.  It’s a real serious & tricky problem.  Considering we can’t ethically get rid of 6 billion people - the idea of drastically curtailing & controlling the population seems largely ineffectual.





As I said at the beginning, I absolutely do NOT advocate "getting rid" of people or any form of genocide to bring the planet into balance. I'm not in the Sierra Club. I wish everyone in the world could get a good shot. Sadly, this is not possible in a lot of places. I once heard a gentleman from India saying something to the effect that if Bill Gates had been born in India, he would be serving curry dishes and tea in a corner cafe.

As I also said at the beginning of the thread, I think this is a problem without a solution (in terms of our impact on the environment). U.N. estimates, I believe, figure that the population will top out at ten billion around 2050. 2050 will be complex enough without having to worry about even more tremendous overcrowding. But that's life.

The reason the population was able to get to nearly 8 billion is a very concentrated and specialized form of intensification made possible by technology. If that technology were to fail, a whole lot of people would die. So, we can enjoy our technology, and hope we can get around future depletions, but one must realize that our current situation is extraordinarily unnatural, if one may be permitted to use that word here. And therefore precarious.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851495 - 07/29/20 11:10 AM (1 month, 21 days ago)

No, not like wolves and tigers (seriously? lol). Homosapiens are great apes. I always find it funny when people try to say we are obligated to eat meat...because tigers, lions, bears.

Humans are true omnivores, related closely to the frugivore classification (although, we have evolved with the ability to consume cooked meat and lactose in some regions), if you ate meat raw like a wolf or a tiger, you would get sick. Not to mention our digestive systems are not at all like canines or large cats. Humans are not obligate omnivores or carnivores, meaning we can do fine without meat so long as we are getting enough nutrients. Humans need about 1 gram of protein per pound of weight, if you're looking to get fit, and that's really easy to do on plant foods. Meat may have caloric density, but so do many other plant foods like legumes, and in contrast to those meat takes an extremely large amount of water and crops to produce as well as land space. Overall, very unsustainable. If anyone is interested I can provide a lot of peer reviewed and meta studies into plant based diets.


Edited by AcidGandalf (07/29/20 11:12 AM)


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26851709 - 07/29/20 01:23 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Wow that's some serious nitpicking. The yardstick I use to determine whether meat is a natural part of hominin diets is that hominins have been eating meat for the last several million years. Homo sapiens has been eating meat for about 300,000 years. As I pointed out, yes, there are certain plant-based diets that can supply all the nutrients we need. But why force humanity to adopt it? So we can have more children?

As I also pointed out, meat-eating vs. veganism is not really a material issue when it comes to overpopulation. I don't consider eliminating meat from our diets to be a "solution" to the trend of environmental depletion if, as you point out, humans are omnivores and need, or would very much like, meat in their diets. Again, humans have been eating meat for eons. That should be the measure of whether humans ought to be eating meat or not.

Reducing or eliminating the carbon footprint of animal farming would make only a slight dent in our environmental impact. Once again, it's tangential, anyway.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26851791 - 07/29/20 01:59 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
.... Again, humans have been eating meat for eons. That should be the measure of whether humans ought to be eating meat or not.
....




.  Actually there is another measure of whether humans ought to be eating meat or not. And it is to look at the health statistics, in the present, of vegetarians & vegans vs meat eaters. Anyone who does so will discover that the reality is quite different.

.    When there was a small pox cure, no one (sensible) said: "Grandad didn't get a vaccine, and that's good enough for me." Instead they looked at the current medical knowledge and health statistics.

.    It is true that until about 10-15 years ago, these facts were not well known. A lot has changed recently. Michael Greger M.D.'s first book "How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease " became an instant New York Times Best Seller. And Joel Fuhrman, M.D., has had TV appearances. All these Doctors explain in great scientific detail why a plant based diet is healthier. The info. is now freely available on youtube. And also in their books and on their websites. So there is a huge amount of choice, in where to begin to educate oneself, for those with an open mind, or health issues. This is one of the easier places to begin with hundreds of science based short videos;  https://nutritionfacts.org/
but with so many MDs now better educated, open minded, and saving lives, there is lots of choice, as to where to allow one's curiosity to get the better of one's habits, if part of one wishes to do so, at anytime. Dr. Fuhrman was once an olympic athlete. Some others have interesting stories also.

Dr. Michael Klaper
Neal D. Barnard,  M.D.
John A. McDougall, M.D.
Dean Michael Ornish, M.D., cardiologist
Joel Fuhrman, M.D.
Michael Greger, M.D.
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn
T. Colin Campbell Ph.D. (1961), biochemistry, nutrition, and microbiology, Cornell University
Garth Davis, MD


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26851815 - 07/29/20 02:10 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

It could be good to encourage people to go vegan, then. But just because it is marginally or even substantially healthier is no criterion for meat's elimination from global diets. It is certainly healthier to drink no alcohol than to drink, but where's the fun in moving civilization permanently away from alcohol? To me it's really a non-issue.

As far as the notion of compassion toward all God's creatures, I have no criticism. However, I personally have no problem consuming the meat of cows bred for slaughter. There is no moral conundrum for me there, and I like to think of myself as a conscientious person. Killing whales or elephants I am absolutely opposed to for any reason. But try as we might, we can't abolish death.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851946 - 07/29/20 03:10 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

It's not really nitpicking when you compared our consumption to that of tigers and wolves. No, it wouldn't be just to have more children, it would be so we can sustain human life on the planet without destroying the ecosystem, as we currently are.

As the above poster commented, plant based diets are very suitable for humans and come with a host of health benefits (again I can provide studies if wanted). Yes, we have been eating cooked meat for a long time, but if you look at the stools of humans in the past you will find that animal products were not a large part of the diet. This is because hunting uses up a massive amount of energy compared to gathering and until livestock agriculture came into use, meat consumption was rare. In fact it's only within the last few centuries that animal product heavy diets became a reality for your average person, in the past it was restricted to nobility or those in cold climates (Arctic and such) who are absolutely reliant on it.

If we were to talk ethics, we have been doing many things for a long time that are are not justifiable, such as slavery. You can say humans have the 'right' to eat meat, and it's a personal choice, but that would only stand if there wasn't countless sentient victims of such choice. Humans included. In that sense a personal choice ceases to be personal as another party has been involved and harmed, in this case it is humans, animals and the larger ecosystem that must be considered. Maybe lab grown meat will become a reality and then we truly can have our cake and eat it?


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851977 - 07/29/20 03:22 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I'd say think about why you have one standard for elephants and whales, and presumably other species such as dogs, and another for cows, pigs, chickens. (I'm not blaming you for this bias, it is learned). When dogs are killed this way in some asian countries, western people cry out in anger and demand that the practice be abolished. They also find the notion of ending pig slaughter to be ridiculous, and an affront to their 'right' to eat them. Pigs and dogs are of very similar intelligence, I'm yet to hear a good reason why it's ok to raise pigs this way and not dogs.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26852100 - 07/29/20 04:17 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Some religious peoples, like Muslims and Jews are particular about which animals are eaten and how they are respectfully killed before cooking.

We all have to be more respectful about raising the animals we respectfully end up eating, and the same goes for the planet.

it is not enough to eat and then disrespect the planet we eat from.
more people more poop.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26852146 - 07/29/20 04:46 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I don't think there's a way to kill something respectfully if its unecesscary, the victim certainly wont be able to feel any respect when its neck in slit or its in a gas chamber (which is btw, considered the most human slaughter method for pigs...I highly recommend watching footage of this 'humane' method). It is one thing to kill for survival, it is another for greed.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26852194 - 07/29/20 05:12 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

All right, your position is clear and I'm not trying to disabuse you of it. However, one of your points is factually incorrect. You're right that throughout history, sociocultural situations developed in which meat was mainly consumed by the ruling class. What led up to this was consumption of meat by everybody, which led to depletions (such as dwindling animal numbers and unsustainability) that prevented the working and poor classes from being able to afford meat. That's true.

But throughout prehistory (and continuing historically in some places) almost all human groups ate meat. Nuts, berries and tubers were a bigger part of the diet -- hunting is hard! -- but everybody ate as much meat as they possibly could, because it has the highest caloric return per unit of energy of any food. Prehistoric and early neolithic humans hunted several species to extinction, actually. And high-volume meat eating has been the rule for at least some segment of society throughout history.

But I take your point. And I am definitely on board with technological meat. If we can create meat identical to the actual thing, we absolutely should shut down factory farming and erase that carbon footprint. It would have the added benefit of also erasing any moral quandaries.

But I'll say again: I don't think the central issue is really factory farming. I think it's a human population of eight billion. To say eight billion's no biggie if we just stop eating meat is putting the cart before the horse.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26852259 - 07/29/20 05:40 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It could be good to encourage people to go vegan, then. But just because it is marginally or even substantially healthier is no criterion for meat's elimination from global diets. It is certainly healthier to drink no alcohol than to drink, but where's the fun in moving civilization permanently away from alcohol? To me it's really a non-issue.

As far as the notion of compassion toward all God's creatures, I have no criticism. However, I personally have no problem consuming the meat of cows bred for slaughter. There is no moral conundrum for me there, and I like to think of myself as a conscientious person. Killing whales or elephants I am absolutely opposed to for any reason. But try as we might, we can't abolish death.




.    I did not make a moral argument. I did not not make an argument about saving the planet. I posted links that show, that the science shows, that the health differences are anything but marginal. I did not say what anyone should do.
.    So if anyone thought it worth their time to debate this, they would first have to grasp some nutritional science, study the statistics, and even then, even if they win an argument or 2 with some vegan or vegetarian, all they would have done, is deprived themselves of discovering for themselves in their own body ( as they often do with  psychedelic drugs regardless of many others opinions) how much better they might feel, after making some of the dietary changes recommended, by the majority of these doctors.
.    I have no interest in debating diet with anyone, but to claim that "...The yardstick ... to determine whether meat is a natural part of hominin diets is that hominins have been eating meat for the last several million years." is simply false in the light of the fact that  present time statistics show that those on plant based diets, do better health wise, on dozens of health measurement parameters, as indicated by thousands, of peer reviewed long term, studies, of all types.
.  People always make do with what is available. That Eskimos don't eat salad greens does not prove they are bad for one, or that seal blubber is what everyone should eat. What is more revealing is to look at the health statistics of Eskimos, vs those who do consume some plants.
.  In fact modern research shows greens are full of phytonutrients that are very important. There really have been amazing advances in nutritional science in the last decade or two.
.  Of course many ignore this information, with the resultant recent diabetes and obesity epidemics. Seems folks find a spot on the dietary spectrum where they feel comfortable. Of course the obesity one sees today shows just what a strange word 'comfortable' is. To be 'comfortable' in the bodies one sees walking around today, would really seem to show an unawareness of unawareness, that is similar to some deep hypnotic phenomenon. Disassociation has become 'the new' normal in today's America.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=phytonutrients&t=hk&ia=web


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26852490 - 07/29/20 08:10 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

I don't dispute it. And on the "yardstick" comment, I was pointing out the ethnographic fact that just about all hunter-gatherers, and beyond that hominins, eat meat. It's a simple calorie to effort ratio. I didn't mean to comment about how healthy or unhealthy it is; just that it is natural human behavior.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26852554 - 07/29/20 08:48 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

People do tend to eat meat. They won't voluntarily give that up despite health issues without a satisfying substitute. I think franken-meat is a good idea but it will need a few generations once it does get off the ground as a tasty alternative. It will need to be proven to be a healthier or as healthy alternative in practice and it will need to be accepted by the public as such. That will all take time.

A meat eater could be someone who consumes whole meat along with a balanced diet, or someone who is eating fast food every day, or someone who eats whole meat but otherwise has some vitamin deficiency that is not the fault of eating meat.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26852578 - 07/29/20 09:08 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

My thoughts exactly.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26852852 - 07/30/20 01:25 AM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

I don't dispute it. And on the "yardstick" comment, I was pointing out the ethnographic fact that just about all hunter-gatherers, and beyond that hominins, eat meat. It's a simple calorie to effort ratio. I didn't mean to comment about how healthy or unhealthy it is; just that it is natural human behavior.




Before grocery stores existed, it was very advantageous to have a diet wide in scope.

For one, it increased your chances of survival during tough times . . .


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26852871 - 07/30/20 01:44 AM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Alcohol consumption is thousands of years old, and people won't give it up generally, however it is known to be detrimental to health. By your definition DQ this is a natural behavior.
Especially as some animals occasionally get drunk on some substances.

Mutilating female genitals in Africa and binding women's feet for centuries in China are also detrimental practices, that show that long custom does not equate, with something being a good idea.

Much of what humans eat world wide, from live insects, insect grubs, worms, snails, frogs, lizards, dogs, horses, bird nest soups, organ meats, raw fish, blood and milk mixtures; both of you: Rahz & DQ, would most likely find revolting.
The above is a short list. Don't believe me how common this is, then click here and enjoy:  https://www.hostelworld.com/blog/the-50-weirdest-foods-from-around-the-world/
A little research will provide dozens of more examples. And of course this type of stuff is what much of the flesh foods, consumed long ago were, as of course obtaining it used less calories than chasing wild larger game.
The foods one sees in the Chinese wet markets, and world wide where ever there are markets, instead of stores, are also instructive as to what people have & do will willingly put in their mouths, apparently 'naturally.

That, you find much food folks actually 'naturally' eat, disgusting, shows your argument as to what is natural, is not the result of objective information gathering, but is actually just opinion that supports your preferences.
This is not surprising, to me and is in fact to be expected. Diet, ranks with religion, politics, & money as one of the hardest things to be objective about. You are in, if not in good, at least in some sort of company as the paleo crowd also likes to ignore what was and is the actual nature of much of the flesh foods consumed long ago, or in environments less northern, modern, western, & urban.

What anyone else chooses to put in there mouth, doesn't matter to me. I have access to informed & free sources on health & nutrition, and have known and know personally people who suffer & suffered (even having operations) due to ignoring willfully, what is freely available, perhaps simply due to habit.
I shall die in any case, and have no illusions about diet in that regard, or about age and deterioration of the body, but exacerbating the process, due to stubborness would seem an unnecessary silliness on my part.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26852977 - 07/30/20 06:19 AM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Quote:

...of objective information gathering, but is actually just opinion that supports your preference...

...stubborness would seem an unnecessary silliness on my part.




Theoretical and biased evidence can inflate an ego but in the final analysis perhaps what we're really after is companions who won't sell us down the river at the first opportunity.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26853279 - 07/30/20 11:24 AM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Quote:

people won't give it up generally




I'll let DQ address the gist of your post but this is the issue I think we're trying to work with. Maybe vegetarianism can be somewhat more healthy than a well balanced diet with whole meats and it would return some land to a more natural habitat, but trying to force all people to be vegetarian would be problematic to say the least.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26853465 - 07/30/20 01:34 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

But there is a difference between customs that go back thousands of years, and dietary habits that go back millions. I'm only trying to provide a justification for meat-eating based on the fact that the genuses homo, pan and australopithecus, and the vast majority of their offshoots (gorillas would be one obvious exception), incorporate meat into their diets.

I am not attempting to deny your point that nutritional science has found ways superior to meat-eating to give modern humans long and healthy lives. But would that justify ending the practice of meat-eating the world over? Historically, meat has been very highly valued, even prized, in almost every human culture known to anthropologists. India would be an exception to this, but we know that prior to the Aryan invasions, meat, including beef, was eaten widely, and only later was the anti-beef, anti-meat injunction inculcated into the culture for ecological reasons.

I am not saying humans must or even should eat meat, but that it is perfectly natural and reasonable for us to do so, and probably we ought to be able to do it should we so choose.

As discussed above, one potential way out of this is lab-grown meat. If they can ever perfect it, that might be a solution to this problem on several fronts. I would be happy to eat lab-grown meat and end factory farming, if this becomes feasible. But then, a lot of people might not, and who is to say that is inherently ill-founded?


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26853550 - 07/30/20 02:09 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Anyone try Burger King's meatless burger?
I'm supremely confident that technology can provide suitable and aceptable alternatives.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26853554 - 07/30/20 02:11 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

I want to try locust burgers &
spaghetti and crickets!


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26853603 - 07/30/20 02:36 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Grubs weren't tasty but I've yet to try worms.

"Bite their heads off, suck their juice out, throw their skins away"


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26853705 - 07/30/20 03:17 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

I cooked worms when I was a kid. Reminded me of onion rings.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26853794 - 07/30/20 03:50 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

The first reaction to asking someone to consider a vegan diet for their health, the health of the planet and other animals is usually "You can't force people", despite that not being the suggestion.  It is a reality that it's something people will have to consider as this planet becomes more uninhabitable and food and water shortages become more common


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26853822 - 07/30/20 04:09 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

I'm not sure that directly asking an individual to consider a vegetarian diet would usually result in a defensive reply about forcing people to do it. Is this your experience?


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26853833 - 07/30/20 04:15 PM (1 month, 20 days ago)

Had a family dinner a few weeks ago and one of my siblings came in proselytizing (she’s a vegetarian) / Trying to convert the entire family - all of whom have grown up (going back generations) on a Mediterranean diet.  She get incredibly defensive and nasty about how no one instantly  converted on the spot.  The burning of the Amazon got brought up - slave wages for workers - animal cruelty - gmos - disease - unsustainably etc etc...

I think it may have been that time of the month...

Was the most unpleasant family dinner in a long time. :eek:


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Edited by The Blind Ass (07/30/20 04:16 PM)


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26854035 - 07/30/20 06:10 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

Quote:



The Blind Ass said:
She get incredibly defensive and nasty about how no one instantly  converted on the spot. 





Human nature, I guess, to attempt domination of weaker personalities/positions and then get upset at resistance.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26854090 - 07/30/20 06:40 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

*got

:cookiemonster:


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26854111 - 07/30/20 06:53 PM (1 month, 19 days ago)

I've noticed a couple of instances on this site where people make obeisance to strong-willed characters. In the interest of research I guess I shouldn't cramp their style.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26854910 - 07/31/20 06:58 AM (1 month, 19 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
In the interest of research I guess I shouldn't cramp their style.




Scratch that.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26857311 - 08/01/20 02:46 PM (1 month, 18 days ago)

All of those points are true. Not a good idea to bring up during dinner when people are no doubt, enjoying such foods the most and probably in the strongest state of denial. It is frustrating to have people prefer their long standing traditional bad habits to the future of this planet, but that's humans in a nut shell. It frustrates me the most to hear people say what is essentially. "Yes it's bad, but i'm going to keep doing these bad things because I wont change for the world"


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26857315 - 08/01/20 02:50 PM (1 month, 18 days ago)

Yes. Many times online but even in person. Once during christmas dinner I had my whole present family making the usual "Oh, do you only eat lettuce? Where do you get your protein? Joe rogan says blah blah, vegans are so pushy." without once even asking them to consider it, or bringing it up, I was simply eating. Spoiled my appetite for sure.

What's also annoying to me is when people refuse to watch what actually happens to tne animals (undercover footage) but then will eat the product. Willful ignorance for sure.


Edited by AcidGandalf (08/01/20 02:56 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26857462 - 08/01/20 04:39 PM (1 month, 18 days ago)

Assuming you don't practice pest control I admire your self sacrifice to the appetites of fleas, mosquitoes and intestinal worms.

Let's be real. You have nothing against killing them, you just don't eat them and try not to raise them, and that supports a holier than thou attitude...but at least you're making progress. Congrats.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26857580 - 08/01/20 06:19 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Not holier than thou, I'm not religious, and I used to eat meat everyday so I'm hardly 'above' the action. I just don't want to anymore because of the consequences.

Veganism isn't about killing nothing. I'd hardly compare a parasite to something minding its own business.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf] * 1
    #26857584 - 08/01/20 06:26 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

OK, well congrats anyway for making the change and spreading the good word m


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #26857601 - 08/01/20 06:42 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

I probably need to be fed Indian curries to be able to make the change.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26857715 - 08/01/20 08:22 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Thanks. Curries are very good, also tbh tastebuds change. Mine certainly did, food I used to think was really bland now tastes nice and since ive tried a meat dish again it was way too salty. First month was annoying but since then as my gut has changed, so has my tastes and cravings.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26858095 - 08/02/20 02:34 AM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Neither meditating for hours per day or dietary reform or fasting are for everyone.
That does not mean that such practices do not have great value for some people, at some times, and in some places.
It also does not mean that such practices will over come personal death, or stop the coming disasters about to befall humanity.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26872196 - 08/09/20 08:16 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

If someone were to say that the earth was not overpopulated I would react with suspicion.  Not that I know the answer but Jesus, c’mon, its likely on the overpopulated side.  I assume that’s why we’re trying to go to Mars.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26872213 - 08/09/20 08:31 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

.    From the point of view of the virus (Covid-19) the more humans the merrier.
.    From the point of view of the politicians, who start wars (but don't send their own sons), the more poor young, uneducated men, - which it takes lots of folks, to clothe and feed, the more humans the merrier.
.    From the point of view of all the species going extinct, no humans would be best. Just look at the chernobyl exclusion zone, and the proliferation of wildlife.

.    It all depends on point of view. There is no right answer.

.    And for all the other Kazillions of galaxies, stars, planets and atoms, and quarks and eternty, it doesn't matter one little bit one way or the other.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26872712 - 08/10/20 05:45 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

There is no such thing as an overpopulation problem. There is a resource and space management problem that results from our travels thus far through different forms of dominator culture styles of social and economic governance.

If you think there's an over population problem consider Mexico City vs the never ending planes of the entirety of middle America.

We have enough resources to food clothe and house all humans, and the space to do it. We don't have an economic or governmental circumstance that would allow for it to happen, though.


If you think capitalism is inevitable or even just, like, a good thing we should keep doing, then in that way there could be what seems to be an overpopulation problem, but I don't.


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:


Edited by Krash Kharma (08/10/20 05:46 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Krash Kharma]
    #26872727 - 08/10/20 06:10 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

are you recommending suburbs take over the desert?


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26872742 - 08/10/20 06:35 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

No suburbs when there's no city.

Using the outcomes of a failed system does not a new system build.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Krash Kharma]
    #26872896 - 08/10/20 09:44 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

Point taken. I'll believe it when I see it.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26872897 - 08/10/20 09:46 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
No suburbs when there's no city.

Using the outcomes of a failed system does not a new system build.





Exactly. If the foundations of the current system are rotten, it doesn't help much to try to tweak the surface layers.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26872913 - 08/10/20 10:08 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

wait a minute, are you demonizing cities?

cities are fantastic for so many reasons.
a concentrating crucible from which new ideas and art emerge continuously.

problematic for plagues, but no civil construct is safe from plagues.

overpopulation remains a problem but cities are not a problem unless they need to have improved drainage, water supply, roads, schools, hospitals...


suburbs suck because you must use a car or get nothing done, and cars suck unless they become the new houses, and they get power from the grids and the sun... it is possible that future cars will exceed the benefits of cities, but I think both are likely to be more excellent.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26873050 - 08/10/20 11:49 AM (1 month, 9 days ago)

.  There is no need for humans period. They are just another species that will mutate or go extinct, or both. Our personal opinions about how many people we feel we need around us to feel comfy are irrelevant, to the random flow of events.
.  That most folks are rather selfish, or IRS agents, or cops, or have a brother that works for big tobacco, (or something similarly unsavory) apparently escapes most folks when thinking about politically correct subjects. If folks didn't have skeletons in the closet, weren't fairly selfish, and were on the other hand intelligent enough not to be anti science, generous, kind, responsible, and mature - then the world would not be in the shape it is today.
.  It is blatantly obvious. In fact our fuzzy thinking on the subject simply proves the point, that homo sapiens is not much more attractive than any other ape, when it comes to personality, maturity, graciousness, or any other metric beyond superficial cleverness.
.  In fact anyone who looks at the phenomenon of torture objectively, must realize we rank the lowest of all lifeforms. (And the torturing of others has been practiced for thousands of years, on all continents, by all races, all cultures, & all peoples and even turned into a science). Only monumental arrogance, insensitivity, self importance,  general lack of awareness, and vanity allows us to forget the blatantly obvious.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


Edited by laughingdog (08/10/20 11:50 AM)


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26873239 - 08/10/20 01:34 PM (1 month, 9 days ago)

I think Krash Kharma was suggesting that we might be better off if the population were more diffuse. Then pineninja responded to that, and I responded to him. But the point is not really cities, suburbs or rural areas. And comparatively, even rural areas these days are much more populated than they were a hundred years ago.

I would not demonize cities, and I loved big cities when I was younger. These days I just sort of view them, at least American cities, as generic hives. All American big cities are basically the same now, and if that weren't the case, I might be less indifferent. Certainly places like London and Paris have their charms, but I think if one lived there they wouldn't seem too special.


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OfflineKrash Kharma
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26873716 - 08/10/20 06:04 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Yeah and heroin has resulted in tons of great music, that doesn't mean it should be a foundational aspect of how our species lives.

Cities and (and capitalism) have many many amazing aspects that make them extremely desirable. They're also the reason for pandemics and famine and global warming and I could go on.

Do you think we're gonna go the entirety of human future-history without ever reevaluating our approach to habitation? Why not start now?

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I think Krash Kharma was suggesting that we might be better off if the population were more diffuse. Then pineninja responded to that, and I responded to him. But the point is not really cities, suburbs or rural areas. And comparatively, even rural areas these days are much more populated than they were a hundred years ago.

I would not demonize cities, and I loved big cities when I was younger. These days I just sort of view them, at least American cities, as generic hives. All American big cities are basically the same now, and if that weren't the case, I might be less indifferent. Certainly places like London and Paris have their charms, but I think if one lived there they wouldn't seem too special.





I love cities for the same reasons anyone else does, but many aspects of them need to be changed for them to stop being as harmful as they are useful/enjoyable.


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:


Edited by Krash Kharma (08/10/20 06:11 PM)


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Krash Kharma]
    #26873748 - 08/10/20 06:34 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Yes well I agree with that. Cities are some of the most toxic (literally and figuratively) environments on Earth, when you consider the whole globe, with all sorts of harmful things going on. When you consider the environment in which our species evolved, whether it's Calcutta or Manhattan, it's about as far from natural as one can get. And this does all sorts of things to one's system -- mind, body and soul.

So yes, I am very alive to the insidiousness of cities, cosmopolitan as they may be on the surface.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26873754 - 08/10/20 06:38 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

The cities are the homestead where the rich love in comfort.

The burbs are where the help returns to at night after there daily service.

We keep repeating the same pattern...just continuing to scale up.

Now we have continents being served by others.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26873933 - 08/10/20 08:19 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Yea it’s not overpopulated if you don’t mind living in the baron desert


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Surfiingbird]
    #26873952 - 08/10/20 08:27 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

I look out on the ocean and see the potential for riding waves, diving beneath for wonder and potentially catching dinner....its my playground.

Some lookout and see a strip of annoying sand beyond which is a big giant lake of briny death.

Same space, differing expectations.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26873963 - 08/10/20 08:36 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Living in cities constantly is intolerable.  Need to go to the woods.  Similarly, living in the woods constantly when there are cities would be intolerable.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26874214 - 08/10/20 11:17 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

.    This country is young, yet we have already had the salem witch trials, Mormon abuse of women, McCarthyism, CIA & Olie North & drugs for weapons in central america, that taxpayers wouldn't go for, the Bay of pigs invasion of Cuba, the invasion of Panama, and world wide support of dictators.
.    And the founders of this country came from Europe where public hangings, and beheadings were popular along with burning witches at the stake, just a few decades ago.
.  If there are future humans and they look back on the present time, they will be horrified, by factory farming, wealth inequality, and the murder rate, and of course the world wide use of torture, and displaced person camps, the persecution of Tibetans and Muslims by China, and drone strikes by the US. And of course the total inability, of so called intelligent primates, to deal with global warming.
.  Yes I agree, what we need are more humans, to eat more hamburgers, watch 'professional wrestling', watch boxing matches, and send their kids to college, to play football and get more tiny concussions resulting in brain damage down the road. Yes we are a great gift to the universe and planet, whether we are in the burbs or in the cities.
.  Everybody should reproduce like crazy--because remember your kids are smarter than everybody else's kids, and deserve more stuff.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26874262 - 08/11/20 12:10 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

The earth is clearly overpopulated relative to our current technological and social advancement. If we were more advanced technologically or socially then we could sustain more people, but we're not (yet). Lucky for us, the population in most developed countries is falling rapidly, likely because generally when an animal species has a higher population than its environment can sustain, it's population falls. I think we're subject to the same basic rule, except that the population we can sustain is dependent upon our technology and the nature of our society.

Ancient civilizations, for example, could only support much smaller populations (and even ran into problems sustaining these populations) with the same amount of resources that we sustain much larger populations. What changed and allowed us to support larger populations was the development of technology (factories, civil engineering, cars/trucks/trains, systems of massive national and international trade, more efficient economies, etc. etc.) and our society. Now, once again we've reached and surpassed the limit of the number of people that our current level of advancement will allow us to sustain, and so naturally our population will decrease over time. This could all be turned around with the invention of new technology, or major social progress, but since we seem to be stalled on both fronts...


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: nooneman]
    #26874266 - 08/11/20 12:14 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
The earth is clearly overpopulated relative to our current technological and social advancement. If we were more advanced technologically or socially then we could sustain more people, but we're not (yet).



It seems to me we have more than plenty technological/productive capacity to provide for the existing population, but our present system of social organization isn't sufficient to distribute and deploy resources efficiently or equitably.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: djbluntmagic]
    #26874484 - 08/11/20 07:19 AM (1 month, 8 days ago)

the benefit of an underground sewer system is boundless.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: nooneman]
    #26875047 - 08/11/20 01:38 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
The earth is clearly overpopulated relative to our current technological and social advancement. If we were more advanced technologically or socially then we could sustain more people, but we're not (yet). Lucky for us, the population in most developed countries is falling rapidly, likely because generally when an animal species has a higher population than its environment can sustain, it's population falls. I think we're subject to the same basic rule, except that the population we can sustain is dependent upon our technology and the nature of our society.

Ancient civilizations, for example, could only support much smaller populations (and even ran into problems sustaining these populations) with the same amount of resources that we sustain much larger populations. What changed and allowed us to support larger populations was the development of technology (factories, civil engineering, cars/trucks/trains, systems of massive national and international trade, more efficient economies, etc. etc.) and our society. Now, once again we've reached and surpassed the limit of the number of people that our current level of advancement will allow us to sustain, and so naturally our population will decrease over time. This could all be turned around with the invention of new technology, or major social progress, but since we seem to be stalled on both fronts...




I fear that social progress isn't going anywhere for awhile.  Technology will probably keep humming along, but without the perceptual and philosophical progress it could spell disaster.  Granted, disaster might be a fun time, so long as the spirits keep up, but probably not.  Not sure what actually develops that sphere anyway.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: nooneman]
    #26875072 - 08/11/20 01:52 PM (1 month, 8 days ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
The earth is clearly overpopulated relative to our current technological and social advancement. If we were more advanced technologically or socially then we could sustain more people, but we're not (yet). Lucky for us, the population in most developed countries is falling rapidly, likely because generally when an animal species has a higher population than its environment can sustain, it's population falls. I think we're subject to the same basic rule, except that the population we can sustain is dependent upon our technology and the nature of our society.

Ancient civilizations, for example, could only support much smaller populations (and even ran into problems sustaining these populations) with the same amount of resources that we sustain much larger populations. What changed and allowed us to support larger populations was the development of technology (factories, civil engineering, cars/trucks/trains, systems of massive national and international trade, more efficient economies, etc. etc.) and our society. Now, once again we've reached and surpassed the limit of the number of people that our current level of advancement will allow us to sustain, and so naturally our population will decrease over time. This could all be turned around with the invention of new technology, or major social progress, but since we seem to be stalled on both fronts...





Good points. I'm often annoyed when people say, "aw hell yeah, let's have a couple billion more. We have the resources to support them!" But as you point out, neither the social infrastructure, nor the appropriate technology, exist to bring everyone in the world to a higher standard of living. One could even make the argument that this is physically impossible, but that's the subject of another thread. But the argument, it seems, for the last several decades is that we can support everyone and more. And I always wonder: When is this going to happen?!


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26876970 - 08/12/20 03:14 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

.    An aspect that is ignored in all such discussions, has 2 sub aspects, but one head

.    Vast populations don't like each other
from the micro level to the macro level

.    Once this is pointed out, we all, can realize this is more the reality, than the opposite - and it is found on both the trivial level - of sports teams - to the Middle East situation - to the inability of the UN to accomplish much.

.    One might say there are 2 aspects
and that the 2nd confirms the first  -- What follows is a quote & statement, and a few links to show I am not just being negative.

"Furthermore, unless you define wars to exclude conflicts between tribes and clans, it is hard to image a period of no wars. Someone was fighting someone some place on this planet since modern man appears in the fossil record about 100,000 years ago."
https://www.quora.com/Has-there-ever-been-a-period-in-history-in-which-war-didnt-exist-If-so-how-do-we-know?share=1

and ... for example:
America Has Been at War 93% of the Time – 222 out of 239 Years – Since 1776
https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-the-time-222-out-of-239-years-since-1776/5565946

and ... for example:

https://www.ancient.eu/war/

.    So due to the reality, that humans are the most aggressive species (true some animals  are more cannibalistic (and some parasites are truly horrible (but they have no self awareness)) - but no other animals have the following constellation of violent and cruel behaviors ( although ants have war and slavery):

torture
constant war
periodic genocide
slavery


things animals can't do - but never-the-less show human nature for what it is:
human trafficking
prisons
racism at many levels
child labor
genital mutilation of women
invention of many machines for torture
(including factory farms)
a religion who's main image is of a man being tortured
invention of many machines for killing on the individual level
invention of many machines for killing at various massive scales
bio weapons
chemical weapons
invention of weapons for creating nuclear winter, and making the entire planet uninhabitable for all (radioactivity) causing a constant potential threat of constant total annihilation….

.  What Jung called the shadow or
.  What Robert Lewis Stevenson called "Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde" or
.  What Stanley Milgram & Philip Zimbardo found from their experiments

.    This is the stuff we prefer to ignore, which is proven by the fact that the subject of how many humans are ideal on the planet has just been taken seriously for pages, while ignoring the fact that most adult humans, (just like small children), can't be left alone together, for any great length of time, without multiple control mechanisms, like government, police, and religion, in place to curb their murderous impulses.

(  by 2 aspects or heads I mean:
1 ) all individual violence, or violence below the level of war. and
2)  war itself involving armies and nations. I suppose all the industries that support these efforts could be called a 3rd aspect, and then the poisoning of the planet a 4th...but so what? 
.  The main point is very simple, it is that the human brain freed homo sapiens from control by nature, which regulates all animal populations, (so that, for example) rabbits and foxes stay in balance, cycling from year to year - but within a stable range.
.  So then being free, due to power of intellect, but not having any mechanisms for emotional balance or control, or a strong enough intellect for self insight and repair, and having a very aggressive pedigree, due to being naked, and being fairly small, and having no large teeth or claws, and needing to compensate for vulnerability, with aggressiveness and having no control over it, homo sapiens has a really mean streak, as all the action movies in the US for example reflect.
.    In the case of frogs, toads, and some lizards, the animals compensate for small size and vulnerability, by inflating a throat sack and / or hissing. It is a sudden threatening response. And certainly must be accompanied by a flood of adrenaline or its equivalent in their species.
.  Humans on the African Savana a million or so years ago were in a similar position, with the Savana being well populated with both large carnivorous predators, and other large and poisonous animals. We have changed little - just substituted all the forms of aggression listed above for an inflated throat sack, along with an inability to control stress. The inability to control stress, is the achilles heel, of a only partially refurbished brain; but the result is that human aggression is as often as not on a hair trigger.

.    In conclusion it seems to me the invention of weapons for creating nuclear winter, and making the entire planet uninhabitable for all (radioactivity) causing a constant potential threat of constant total annihilation, which would show this whole question to be .... chose your own word______.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26877244 - 08/12/20 06:35 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Well I maintain, and it seems there are only a few of us left who do, that nuclear holocaust is the number one threat of extinction to our species, and that, therefore, nuclear non-proliferation is essentially still the most central issue. Humans have built these things, and as t approaches a statistically large enough number, the whole shithouse will have to go up, based purely upon mathematical principles coupled with known human behavior. Humans usually, sooner or later, find uses for what they create. Who knows what the time variable is, but all things being equal, I think this thinking is accurate.

And they're not going anywhere. So the only way, that I can see, for humans to become disengaged from "the button," is for artificial intelligence to reach an independent and sophisticated enough state to forbid us from ever using nukes. They would be like a circuit-breaker for man's uncheckable instincts. How plausible such a thing is is, of course, a matter of opinion. But the threat of nuclear holocaust makes things like climate change, ecological devastation and overpopulation look like simple trifles. Those could with high likelihood be survived by a number of people. Nuclear holocaust cannot be survived by a single soul.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26877336 - 08/12/20 07:41 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

.  A particularly scary thing about nukes is that like Russian roulette, the risk cannot be quantified.
There are a number of wild cards.

1) Nuclear subs with nuclear missiles, raise a number of questions:
number of subs, number of nations with them, & number of missiles unknown.
But what is known, is that as you say DQ, they can go on firing, long after all the bases on land are wiped out, so that no one is left.

2) the role of computers, in controlling all types of nuclear weapons is unknown, and their hackibility is unknown

3) the stability of the 9 governments,  that have these weapons,
are in question: the United States, Russia , the United Kingdom, France, China. India, Pakistan, North Korea, & Israel. As is the mental stability of some of the leaders of these countries.

4) How age has effected the guidance systems, and computers in the missiles is unknown

5) How age has effected the guidance systems that are in related satellites is unknown

6) how EMF from solar flares might effect such systems is unknown

7) how vulnerable nuclear power plants are to terrorism and earthquakes is unknown.

8) whether all nuclear material was accounted for after the fall of the Soviet Union is unknown


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26877408 - 08/12/20 08:28 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Yes it's depressing and scary.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26877461 - 08/12/20 09:08 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Maybe some of you are already familiar with the Kardashev scale but I just was introduced to it the other day.

In my short time learning this, it seems a shifted perspective would place the operable terms not as under or overpopulated. But rather under and over utilized. If we have maximized our utilization of energy on Earth, then expansion is on deck. If expansion fails, then the energy on earth will be over-utilized and result in issues and civilization be considered a net failure. If expansion succeeds, then new sources of energy are being under-utilized and offer new paths forwards for civilization.

I like this because it plays into human nature. We are expansionist creatures. We do gobble up resources at increasing rates when we can. And so it does seem as though a human civilization will thrive on expansionism and resource growth regardless of starting or ending population. 


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26878295 - 08/13/20 11:58 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Yes it's depressing and scary.





apparently a reactor in England fucked up:
"The Dounreay Materials Test Reactor (DMTR) achieved criticality, a nuclear term referring to the balance of neutrons in the system, in 1958."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-53763880?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/technology&link_location=live-reporting-story

so "#7)  how vulnerable nuclear power plants are to terrorism and earthquakes is unknown."

needs to be expanded to include:  failures of nuclear power plants themselves,

I only knew of 2 such cases previously -- boy was I mistaken:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_accidents_by_country

"Globally, there have been at least 99 (civilian and military) recorded nuclear power plant accidents from 1952 to 2009"

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=list+of+failure+of+nuclear+power+plants&t=hx&ia=web&iai=r1-0&page=1&adx=prdsdc&sexp=%7B%22v7exp%22%3A%22a%22%2C%22sltexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prodexp%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22prdsdexp%22%3A%22c%22%2C%22wiadrk%22%3A%22b%22%2C%22langexp%22%3A%22b%22%7D

as well as numerous problems with nuclear waste disposal itself


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


Edited by laughingdog (08/13/20 12:00 PM)


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26878359 - 08/13/20 12:35 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Oh God, the nuclear waste problem is catastrophic. I only know about it in the U.S., but my Mom worked for the Department of Energy for decades, and we still have not properly stored our waste from weapons development 40s-present. There are huge vats of plutonium by-products at Hanford, in Washington State. Just sitting there. For decades.

One idea was to store some of it in salt-lined caverns in New Mexico, but that was never finalized. The main idea was to store it all (getting it there by rail and truck, carefully) at Yucca Mountain in Nevada, but the locals would always balk and stonewall. The politicians pandered to this. Now, we've got to put it somewhere -- high-level waste is not safe just sitting in temporary containers at various places in the country. Yucca Mountain was legitimately thought to be a viable spot, because of its minimal seismic activity and total desolation.

The plan was to dig down thousands of feet, put it all in there and seal it, finding every way possible for it to remain there untouched for 40,000 years (the minimum safe disposal period, after which it becomes low-level). I guess that means a lot of signs? I don't know, but Nevadans aren't having it, and the problem remains unresolved.

Some of the shit this country has done is really staggering.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Kickle]
    #26878893 - 08/13/20 05:36 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Maybe some of you are already familiar with the Kardashev scale but I just was introduced to it the other day.

In my short time learning this, it seems a shifted perspective would place the operable terms not as under or overpopulated. But rather under and over utilized. If we have maximized our utilization of energy on Earth, then expansion is on deck. If expansion fails, then the energy on earth will be over-utilized and result in issues and civilization be considered a net failure. If expansion succeeds, then new sources of energy are being under-utilized and offer new paths forwards for civilization.

I like this because it plays into human nature. We are expansionist creatures. We do gobble up resources at increasing rates when we can. And so it does seem as though a human civilization will thrive on expansionism and resource growth regardless of starting or ending population. 





I am not familiar with it, but it's clearly logical. Marvin Harris talks about the four key factors in developing societies: production, reproduction, intensification and depletion. It is his contention that almost all elements of cultural evolution can be explained through these factors, although of course the permutations and specifics can be complex and vary across cultures.

It does seem that growth in humans societies is a salient theme, although there have been several that remained approximately level or even declined over time. Certainly, most historical societies, both East and West, have been involved with a continuous and more or less steady rate of growth, and therefore  escalating modes of production, higher populations and intensification of producing resources.

Of course the Earth is finite, so even with brilliant modes of production and intensification, it will have to top out at some point. The current estimates are 10-12 billion I believe. So we have the choice of exporting unending growth to other planets, or getting our civilization a bit more balanced. I think the latter approach is clearly more pressing.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26879387 - 08/14/20 12:21 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
...., and the problem remains unresolved.

Some of the shit this country has done is really staggering.




indeed -- and transporting the stuff (if a place is found that accepts it) on public roads, is also not without serious hazards

and yet it is still taken seriously as a safe alternative power source.

- - - - - -

Are there too many humans?, if by this we mean intelligent & educated (mature, kind & responsible beings, that are also free of nationalism, pride, superstitious beliefs, greed, & fear) animals on the planet, there are no such beings, that occur regularly in isolation, or  that occur regularly in small groups.
Such more awakened beings only occur as exceptions, and often prefer to remain unnoticed. So the question doesn't really apply to what is usually meant by a human population.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26879397 - 08/14/20 12:35 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
...I am not familiar with it, but it's clearly logical. Marvin Harris talks about the four key factors in developing societies: production, reproduction, intensification and depletion. ...




Well they all end with depletion. And all empires end. Endless expansion is a sci-fi fantasy, or a religion for capitalists, which makes no sense.

Marvin Harris goes into details about the stages of depletion of resources and environmental degradation in culture after culture, location after location, & time after time -- and of course we already see the pattern repeating in the current generations world wide.

The consumption of processed foods and resultant declining health (even pre covid) as a result, in the richest country on the planet, is just an ironic twist on the same old pattern.

see for example, on youtube, if interested:
"Is a Calorie a Calorie? Processed Food, Experiment Gone Wrong"
with
Robert Lustig, MD, is Professor of Pediatrics in the Division of Endocrinology at University of California, San Francisco, and the author of Fat Chance: Beating the Odds against Sugar, Processed Food, Obesity, and Disease.

Christopher Gardner, PhD, Professor (Research) of Medicine is a nutrition researcher at the Stanford Prevention Research Center whose research has been investigating the potential health benefits of various dietary components or food patterns, explored in the context of randomized controlled trials in free-living adult populations


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26879743 - 08/14/20 09:29 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

All good points.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26880545 - 08/14/20 07:25 PM (1 month, 4 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I am not familiar with it, but it's clearly logical. Marvin Harris talks about the four key factors in developing societies: production, reproduction, intensification and depletion. It is his contention that almost all elements of cultural evolution can be explained through these factors, although of course the permutations and specifics can be complex and vary across cultures.

It does seem that growth in humans societies is a salient theme, although there have been several that remained approximately level or even declined over time. Certainly, most historical societies, both East and West, have been involved with a continuous and more or less steady rate of growth, and therefore  escalating modes of production, higher populations and intensification of producing resources.

Of course the Earth is finite, so even with brilliant modes of production and intensification, it will have to top out at some point. The current estimates are 10-12 billion I believe. So we have the choice of exporting unending growth to other planets, or getting our civilization a bit more balanced. I think the latter approach is clearly more pressing.




What is happening right now is humanity at work. Growth and expansion won the day and the process continues. Natural selection has shown it's hand on desirable traits in humans. I don't think anyone can deny that the traits which thrive in humanity are the one's which oppose stagnation. And if anyone here doesn't possess a propensity towards growth and expansion in some area of their life I'd be very surprised.

As it stands the predominant nations which determine the course right now are much more invested in expansion than sustainability. How many countries just launched rockets to Mars? It just lines up with what's going on IMO

And if expansionist tendencies are destined for failure, then no inter-stellar species could ever meet. In which case I'm going to go play with the Dolphins :peace:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #26881065 - 08/15/20 06:20 AM (1 month, 4 days ago)

let's climb out of covid, then xenophobia, then the environment, and everything else that is not fair or wise


--------------------


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Kickle]
    #26883633 - 08/16/20 04:17 PM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I am not familiar with it, but it's clearly logical. Marvin Harris talks about the four key factors in developing societies: production, reproduction, intensification and depletion. It is his contention that almost all elements of cultural evolution can be explained through these factors, although of course the permutations and specifics can be complex and vary across cultures.

It does seem that growth in humans societies is a salient theme, although there have been several that remained approximately level or even declined over time. Certainly, most historical societies, both East and West, have been involved with a continuous and more or less steady rate of growth, and therefore  escalating modes of production, higher populations and intensification of producing resources.

Of course the Earth is finite, so even with brilliant modes of production and intensification, it will have to top out at some point. The current estimates are 10-12 billion I believe. So we have the choice of exporting unending growth to other planets, or getting our civilization a bit more balanced. I think the latter approach is clearly more pressing.




What is happening right now is humanity at work. Growth and expansion won the day and the process continues. Natural selection has shown it's hand on desirable traits in humans. I don't think anyone can deny that the traits which thrive in humanity are the one's which oppose stagnation. And if anyone here doesn't possess a propensity towards growth and expansion in some area of their life I'd be very surprised.

As it stands the predominant nations which determine the course right now are much more invested in expansion than sustainability. How many countries just launched rockets to Mars? It just lines up with what's going on IMO

And if expansionist tendencies are destined for failure, then no inter-stellar species could ever meet. In which case I'm going to go play with the Dolphins :peace:




.    Who had the most offspring? And thus passed on the most genes, that make up humans today. The answer is the most alpha guy: a rapist, warmonger, pillager, and all around nastiest guy. His name was Genghis Khan. Recent genetics discoveries showed this. Its easy to look up & verify.
.    Whether human's destroy so much of their natural habitat that only hoards of very similar sissified city dwellers think lots of glitzy technology makes a more wonderful world than that of nature with a sparser more differentiated population, really doesn't matter, as the same nasty selfish genes we got, partly from Genghis Khan, and his like, will remain, hard at work just beneath the clothes, of the "hairless" primate: homo sapiens.


Edited by laughingdog (08/16/20 04:23 PM)


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26883816 - 08/16/20 07:40 PM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Based on that theory it's amazing we still have the elegance to even question our own destructiveness....almost as surprising as the fact we aren't all much stronger Mongols.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26883836 - 08/16/20 08:00 PM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Not so surprising
we are a random mix of aggressive garbage,
and forebrain processing power, that randomly comes online.

But yes, we are not consistent, reliable, or mature,
so what we get at any moment,
is to some degree unexpected or unpredictable.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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