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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850936 - 07/28/20 11:26 PM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
1804 is when wiki says the pop. was last about 1 billion.  I’d like to time travel and check it out for a while if I could hop back and forth between now & then freely.  Then again, if we went back to 1804 and did something to make sure the population didn’t grow past 1 billion - who knows what the implications would be / how history would have unfolded all the way up from then and until the present day.  It’s a real serious & tricky problem.  Considering we can’t ethically get rid of 6 billion people - the idea of drastically curtailing & controlling the population seems largely ineffectual.




.  This is where fiction writers (& movie makers) have an advantage over the rest of us. (Of course, we all already know, personal circumstances, age, and location, always determine our perception of reality, more than the historical milieu. A bad divorce or getting crippled can cast a dark shadow over all one's plans and hopes regardless of the historical time, visa versa falling in love can make any world seem brighter, for awhile...)...

.  One of my fantasies was to be an anthropologist. Perhaps living with other cultures is even more exciting than time traveling in one's own imagination, or writing fiction? Certainly many native cultures live in relatively smaller and more rural groups.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


Edited by laughingdog (07/28/20 11:28 PM)


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26850937 - 07/28/20 11:28 PM (17 days, 7 hours ago)

No doubt!  Just living in another country or among other cultures for a time is eye opening & makes me feel even more complete.  It’s properly psychedelic.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps - or -  give me death caps


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26851437 - 07/29/20 09:17 AM (16 days, 22 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
1804 is when wiki says the pop. was last about 1 billion.  I’d like to time travel and check it out for a while if I could hop back and forth between now & then freely.  Then again, if we went back to 1804 and did something to make sure the population didn’t grow past 1 billion - who knows what the implications would be / how history would have unfolded all the way up from then and until the present day.  It’s a real serious & tricky problem.  Considering we can’t ethically get rid of 6 billion people - the idea of drastically curtailing & controlling the population seems largely ineffectual.





As I said at the beginning, I absolutely do NOT advocate "getting rid" of people or any form of genocide to bring the planet into balance. I'm not in the Sierra Club. I wish everyone in the world could get a good shot. Sadly, this is not possible in a lot of places. I once heard a gentleman from India saying something to the effect that if Bill Gates had been born in India, he would be serving curry dishes and tea in a corner cafe.

As I also said at the beginning of the thread, I think this is a problem without a solution (in terms of our impact on the environment). U.N. estimates, I believe, figure that the population will top out at ten billion around 2050. 2050 will be complex enough without having to worry about even more tremendous overcrowding. But that's life.

The reason the population was able to get to nearly 8 billion is a very concentrated and specialized form of intensification made possible by technology. If that technology were to fail, a whole lot of people would die. So, we can enjoy our technology, and hope we can get around future depletions, but one must realize that our current situation is extraordinarily unnatural, if one may be permitted to use that word here. And therefore precarious.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851495 - 07/29/20 10:10 AM (16 days, 21 hours ago)

No, not like wolves and tigers (seriously? lol). Homosapiens are great apes. I always find it funny when people try to say we are obligated to eat meat...because tigers, lions, bears.

Humans are true omnivores, related closely to the frugivore classification (although, we have evolved with the ability to consume cooked meat and lactose in some regions), if you ate meat raw like a wolf or a tiger, you would get sick. Not to mention our digestive systems are not at all like canines or large cats. Humans are not obligate omnivores or carnivores, meaning we can do fine without meat so long as we are getting enough nutrients. Humans need about 1 gram of protein per pound of weight, if you're looking to get fit, and that's really easy to do on plant foods. Meat may have caloric density, but so do many other plant foods like legumes, and in contrast to those meat takes an extremely large amount of water and crops to produce as well as land space. Overall, very unsustainable. If anyone is interested I can provide a lot of peer reviewed and meta studies into plant based diets.


Edited by AcidGandalf (07/29/20 10:12 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26851709 - 07/29/20 12:23 PM (16 days, 18 hours ago)

Wow that's some serious nitpicking. The yardstick I use to determine whether meat is a natural part of hominin diets is that hominins have been eating meat for the last several million years. Homo sapiens has been eating meat for about 300,000 years. As I pointed out, yes, there are certain plant-based diets that can supply all the nutrients we need. But why force humanity to adopt it? So we can have more children?

As I also pointed out, meat-eating vs. veganism is not really a material issue when it comes to overpopulation. I don't consider eliminating meat from our diets to be a "solution" to the trend of environmental depletion if, as you point out, humans are omnivores and need, or would very much like, meat in their diets. Again, humans have been eating meat for eons. That should be the measure of whether humans ought to be eating meat or not.

Reducing or eliminating the carbon footprint of animal farming would make only a slight dent in our environmental impact. Once again, it's tangential, anyway.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26851791 - 07/29/20 12:59 PM (16 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
.... Again, humans have been eating meat for eons. That should be the measure of whether humans ought to be eating meat or not.
....




.  Actually there is another measure of whether humans ought to be eating meat or not. And it is to look at the health statistics, in the present, of vegetarians & vegans vs meat eaters. Anyone who does so will discover that the reality is quite different.

.    When there was a small pox cure, no one (sensible) said: "Grandad didn't get a vaccine, and that's good enough for me." Instead they looked at the current medical knowledge and health statistics.

.    It is true that until about 10-15 years ago, these facts were not well known. A lot has changed recently. Michael Greger M.D.'s first book "How Not to Die: Discover the Foods Scientifically Proven to Prevent and Reverse Disease " became an instant New York Times Best Seller. And Joel Fuhrman, M.D., has had TV appearances. All these Doctors explain in great scientific detail why a plant based diet is healthier. The info. is now freely available on youtube. And also in their books and on their websites. So there is a huge amount of choice, in where to begin to educate oneself, for those with an open mind, or health issues. This is one of the easier places to begin with hundreds of science based short videos;  https://nutritionfacts.org/
but with so many MDs now better educated, open minded, and saving lives, there is lots of choice, as to where to allow one's curiosity to get the better of one's habits, if part of one wishes to do so, at anytime. Dr. Fuhrman was once an olympic athlete. Some others have interesting stories also.

Dr. Michael Klaper
Neal D. Barnard,  M.D.
John A. McDougall, M.D.
Dean Michael Ornish, M.D., cardiologist
Joel Fuhrman, M.D.
Michael Greger, M.D.
Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn
T. Colin Campbell Ph.D. (1961), biochemistry, nutrition, and microbiology, Cornell University
Garth Davis, MD


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26851815 - 07/29/20 01:10 PM (16 days, 18 hours ago)

It could be good to encourage people to go vegan, then. But just because it is marginally or even substantially healthier is no criterion for meat's elimination from global diets. It is certainly healthier to drink no alcohol than to drink, but where's the fun in moving civilization permanently away from alcohol? To me it's really a non-issue.

As far as the notion of compassion toward all God's creatures, I have no criticism. However, I personally have no problem consuming the meat of cows bred for slaughter. There is no moral conundrum for me there, and I like to think of myself as a conscientious person. Killing whales or elephants I am absolutely opposed to for any reason. But try as we might, we can't abolish death.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851946 - 07/29/20 02:10 PM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

It's not really nitpicking when you compared our consumption to that of tigers and wolves. No, it wouldn't be just to have more children, it would be so we can sustain human life on the planet without destroying the ecosystem, as we currently are.

As the above poster commented, plant based diets are very suitable for humans and come with a host of health benefits (again I can provide studies if wanted). Yes, we have been eating cooked meat for a long time, but if you look at the stools of humans in the past you will find that animal products were not a large part of the diet. This is because hunting uses up a massive amount of energy compared to gathering and until livestock agriculture came into use, meat consumption was rare. In fact it's only within the last few centuries that animal product heavy diets became a reality for your average person, in the past it was restricted to nobility or those in cold climates (Arctic and such) who are absolutely reliant on it.

If we were to talk ethics, we have been doing many things for a long time that are are not justifiable, such as slavery. You can say humans have the 'right' to eat meat, and it's a personal choice, but that would only stand if there wasn't countless sentient victims of such choice. Humans included. In that sense a personal choice ceases to be personal as another party has been involved and harmed, in this case it is humans, animals and the larger ecosystem that must be considered. Maybe lab grown meat will become a reality and then we truly can have our cake and eat it?


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26851977 - 07/29/20 02:22 PM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

I'd say think about why you have one standard for elephants and whales, and presumably other species such as dogs, and another for cows, pigs, chickens. (I'm not blaming you for this bias, it is learned). When dogs are killed this way in some asian countries, western people cry out in anger and demand that the practice be abolished. They also find the notion of ending pig slaughter to be ridiculous, and an affront to their 'right' to eat them. Pigs and dogs are of very similar intelligence, I'm yet to hear a good reason why it's ok to raise pigs this way and not dogs.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26852100 - 07/29/20 03:17 PM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

Some religious peoples, like Muslims and Jews are particular about which animals are eaten and how they are respectfully killed before cooking.

We all have to be more respectful about raising the animals we respectfully end up eating, and the same goes for the planet.

it is not enough to eat and then disrespect the planet we eat from.
more people more poop.


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OfflineAcidGandalf
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26852146 - 07/29/20 03:46 PM (16 days, 15 hours ago)

I don't think there's a way to kill something respectfully if its unecesscary, the victim certainly wont be able to feel any respect when its neck in slit or its in a gas chamber (which is btw, considered the most human slaughter method for pigs...I highly recommend watching footage of this 'humane' method). It is one thing to kill for survival, it is another for greed.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26852194 - 07/29/20 04:12 PM (16 days, 15 hours ago)

All right, your position is clear and I'm not trying to disabuse you of it. However, one of your points is factually incorrect. You're right that throughout history, sociocultural situations developed in which meat was mainly consumed by the ruling class. What led up to this was consumption of meat by everybody, which led to depletions (such as dwindling animal numbers and unsustainability) that prevented the working and poor classes from being able to afford meat. That's true.

But throughout prehistory (and continuing historically in some places) almost all human groups ate meat. Nuts, berries and tubers were a bigger part of the diet -- hunting is hard! -- but everybody ate as much meat as they possibly could, because it has the highest caloric return per unit of energy of any food. Prehistoric and early neolithic humans hunted several species to extinction, actually. And high-volume meat eating has been the rule for at least some segment of society throughout history.

But I take your point. And I am definitely on board with technological meat. If we can create meat identical to the actual thing, we absolutely should shut down factory farming and erase that carbon footprint. It would have the added benefit of also erasing any moral quandaries.

But I'll say again: I don't think the central issue is really factory farming. I think it's a human population of eight billion. To say eight billion's no biggie if we just stop eating meat is putting the cart before the horse.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26852259 - 07/29/20 04:40 PM (16 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
It could be good to encourage people to go vegan, then. But just because it is marginally or even substantially healthier is no criterion for meat's elimination from global diets. It is certainly healthier to drink no alcohol than to drink, but where's the fun in moving civilization permanently away from alcohol? To me it's really a non-issue.

As far as the notion of compassion toward all God's creatures, I have no criticism. However, I personally have no problem consuming the meat of cows bred for slaughter. There is no moral conundrum for me there, and I like to think of myself as a conscientious person. Killing whales or elephants I am absolutely opposed to for any reason. But try as we might, we can't abolish death.




.    I did not make a moral argument. I did not not make an argument about saving the planet. I posted links that show, that the science shows, that the health differences are anything but marginal. I did not say what anyone should do.
.    So if anyone thought it worth their time to debate this, they would first have to grasp some nutritional science, study the statistics, and even then, even if they win an argument or 2 with some vegan or vegetarian, all they would have done, is deprived themselves of discovering for themselves in their own body ( as they often do with  psychedelic drugs regardless of many others opinions) how much better they might feel, after making some of the dietary changes recommended, by the majority of these doctors.
.    I have no interest in debating diet with anyone, but to claim that "...The yardstick ... to determine whether meat is a natural part of hominin diets is that hominins have been eating meat for the last several million years." is simply false in the light of the fact that  present time statistics show that those on plant based diets, do better health wise, on dozens of health measurement parameters, as indicated by thousands, of peer reviewed long term, studies, of all types.
.  People always make do with what is available. That Eskimos don't eat salad greens does not prove they are bad for one, or that seal blubber is what everyone should eat. What is more revealing is to look at the health statistics of Eskimos, vs those who do consume some plants.
.  In fact modern research shows greens are full of phytonutrients that are very important. There really have been amazing advances in nutritional science in the last decade or two.
.  Of course many ignore this information, with the resultant recent diabetes and obesity epidemics. Seems folks find a spot on the dietary spectrum where they feel comfortable. Of course the obesity one sees today shows just what a strange word 'comfortable' is. To be 'comfortable' in the bodies one sees walking around today, would really seem to show an unawareness of unawareness, that is similar to some deep hypnotic phenomenon. Disassociation has become 'the new' normal in today's America.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=phytonutrients&t=hk&ia=web


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26852490 - 07/29/20 07:10 PM (16 days, 12 hours ago)

I don't dispute it. And on the "yardstick" comment, I was pointing out the ethnographic fact that just about all hunter-gatherers, and beyond that hominins, eat meat. It's a simple calorie to effort ratio. I didn't mean to comment about how healthy or unhealthy it is; just that it is natural human behavior.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26852554 - 07/29/20 07:48 PM (16 days, 11 hours ago)

People do tend to eat meat. They won't voluntarily give that up despite health issues without a satisfying substitute. I think franken-meat is a good idea but it will need a few generations once it does get off the ground as a tasty alternative. It will need to be proven to be a healthier or as healthy alternative in practice and it will need to be accepted by the public as such. That will all take time.

A meat eater could be someone who consumes whole meat along with a balanced diet, or someone who is eating fast food every day, or someone who eats whole meat but otherwise has some vitamin deficiency that is not the fault of eating meat.


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26852578 - 07/29/20 08:08 PM (16 days, 11 hours ago)

My thoughts exactly.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26852852 - 07/30/20 12:25 AM (16 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:

I don't dispute it. And on the "yardstick" comment, I was pointing out the ethnographic fact that just about all hunter-gatherers, and beyond that hominins, eat meat. It's a simple calorie to effort ratio. I didn't mean to comment about how healthy or unhealthy it is; just that it is natural human behavior.




Before grocery stores existed, it was very advantageous to have a diet wide in scope.

For one, it increased your chances of survival during tough times . . .


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26852871 - 07/30/20 12:44 AM (16 days, 6 hours ago)

Alcohol consumption is thousands of years old, and people won't give it up generally, however it is known to be detrimental to health. By your definition DQ this is a natural behavior.
Especially as some animals occasionally get drunk on some substances.

Mutilating female genitals in Africa and binding women's feet for centuries in China are also detrimental practices, that show that long custom does not equate, with something being a good idea.

Much of what humans eat world wide, from live insects, insect grubs, worms, snails, frogs, lizards, dogs, horses, bird nest soups, organ meats, raw fish, blood and milk mixtures; both of you: Rahz & DQ, would most likely find revolting.
The above is a short list. Don't believe me how common this is, then click here and enjoy:  https://www.hostelworld.com/blog/the-50-weirdest-foods-from-around-the-world/
A little research will provide dozens of more examples. And of course this type of stuff is what much of the flesh foods, consumed long ago were, as of course obtaining it used less calories than chasing wild larger game.
The foods one sees in the Chinese wet markets, and world wide where ever there are markets, instead of stores, are also instructive as to what people have & do will willingly put in their mouths, apparently 'naturally.

That, you find much food folks actually 'naturally' eat, disgusting, shows your argument as to what is natural, is not the result of objective information gathering, but is actually just opinion that supports your preferences.
This is not surprising, to me and is in fact to be expected. Diet, ranks with religion, politics, & money as one of the hardest things to be objective about. You are in, if not in good, at least in some sort of company as the paleo crowd also likes to ignore what was and is the actual nature of much of the flesh foods consumed long ago, or in environments less northern, modern, western, & urban.

What anyone else chooses to put in there mouth, doesn't matter to me. I have access to informed & free sources on health & nutrition, and have known and know personally people who suffer & suffered (even having operations) due to ignoring willfully, what is freely available, perhaps simply due to habit.
I shall die in any case, and have no illusions about diet in that regard, or about age and deterioration of the body, but exacerbating the process, due to stubborness would seem an unnecessary silliness on my part.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26852977 - 07/30/20 05:19 AM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

Quote:

...of objective information gathering, but is actually just opinion that supports your preference...

...stubborness would seem an unnecessary silliness on my part.




Theoretical and biased evidence can inflate an ego but in the final analysis perhaps what we're really after is companions who won't sell us down the river at the first opportunity.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26853279 - 07/30/20 10:24 AM (15 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

people won't give it up generally




I'll let DQ address the gist of your post but this is the issue I think we're trying to work with. Maybe vegetarianism can be somewhat more healthy than a well balanced diet with whole meats and it would return some land to a more natural habitat, but trying to force all people to be vegetarian would be problematic to say the least.


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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