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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26830557 - 07/18/20 12:48 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Well I take your point, but the world is currently undergoing a water crisis, so it's not just about unlimited water sources that can be cleaned, but in most cases the absence of any potable water at all. Water shortages are a thing all over the world, filterable or not.

On the other hand, your previous argument that standard of living is not an objective measure of well being certainly applies here. There could be water shortages in Phoenix and Dubai just as easily as Calcutta or Mumbai. So perhaps this is a broader topic. In any case there are millions without enough water, and without water that is really treatable or drinkable.

As I say, in thirty years or so standard of living will have nothing to do with the water crisis. So perhaps I have created a tangent of sorts.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26831326 - 07/18/20 08:31 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

Potable water shortage is generally an issue because industry has taken the large majority.
In most developed nations drinking water is under 5 percent of the use.

A population crisis with today's technology only needs to be 2 people and a couple of buttons.

The behaviors and the dangers they pose overtook (in an urgency sense) had dramatically increased post the industrial revolution...and especially now in the nuclear age.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26831482 - 07/18/20 10:31 PM (2 months, 5 days ago)

I found a primer on removing radio active pollutants from water at Forbes


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26832835 - 07/19/20 06:27 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

You mention the developed world. Clearly, with the affordability of technology and water treatment, this is not a serious problem overall, at least right now. (Although the Western U.S. in the next thirty to forty years will have a real crisis on its hands).

But in the developing world, water is a problem in a lot of places, not just with impurities and pollutants, but even having access to any at all. And the infrastructure is just not there to improve things quickly, hence the 780 million without safe drinking water.

Anyway, given climate change, so far the planet is becoming drier in many places inland, and desertification is taking place all over, but who knows what will happen. Add two or three billion more, and water is even more precious (and scarce).

In any case, we have oceans. If we really wanted inexpensive, high-volume desalination technologies, I think we could have them. But that's pretty low on the list for most countries, the vast majority of whom simply can't afford it right now.

Water aside, I still say eight billion is too many for a gentle impact. And I'm sure you guys can see as well as I can the various categories where variables are starting to spin out of control: climate change, species loss, plastic pollution, etc., etc. I know we can in principle clean this up, but when? Under whose global initiative? All things do is get worse. And I attribute this to a ballooning population. I respect the opinions of, but do not understand, those who do not.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26833023 - 07/19/20 08:26 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

So which is it Politics or Population?

The difference geography alone doesn't account for the vast disparity between outcomes both on an individual level and a planetary one.

We've not yet desalinated en mass simply because of economics.
Once again political.
I don't think it would be invalid to suggest we have the resources to build if we really wanted to.

When?
Well I think we could be closer to moving forward to solutions if we stopped whacking on about an unchanging increasing population....other than to aknowledge it and help it propel a much needed changed in behaviours.

If you do not start a conversation with your hopes and dreams (your utopia...... my utopia ) where then does the inevitable conciliatory centre fall.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26833048 - 07/19/20 08:49 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

pineninja said:
So which is it Politics or Population?
where then does the inevitable conciliatory centre fall.




I'm hoping A.I will prove a capable minder where human intelligence fails.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja]
    #26833049 - 07/19/20 08:50 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

I agree that we need to accept the fact that by 2050 there could be over 10 billion people here, and act accordingly. What I wonder is whether there is any sustainable way to accommodate this even in principle. There may be a solution and there may be no solution at all. Taking a look at third world countries right now does not afford much encouragement, imo.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26833050 - 07/19/20 08:50 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

pineninja said:
So which is it Politics or Population?
where then does the inevitable conciliatory centre fall.




I'm hoping A.I will prove a capable minder where human intelligence fails.





Me too.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #26833107 - 07/19/20 09:36 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

There is a subjective aspect to it, so with that in mind I feel the Earth is overpopulated. It's true that with proper stewardship we could keep the environment clean, but that hasn't happened. Theoretical vs reality.

There's the availability of isolation. I live within an hour of the mountains. When I was a kid you might see a few people depending on where you went. And that's cool because the resources are there for everyone, but these days I don't go as often because the mountains are literally crawling with people now. There are rules/laws that prohibit fishing, swimming, where you can go on dry land, where you can camp at night. Everyone is herded through the mountains like it's an amusement park ride.

There's bio-diversity. The primary mover of loss of bio-diversity is loss of habitat. Except for protected areas it's mostly farm land and 45% angles now, unless you count the tundra and deserts.

There's long term projections for resource availability. Everything is plentiful now but how about 200, 500, 5000 years from now? Without a new and unlimited fuel source to mine the solar system we'll be in deep shit at some point. If there were only 500 million people, we wouldn't need to worry as much. Instead of asking where we will be in 5000 years, we would be asking where we will be in 80,000 years. It's much more likely we can make up the resource gap in that time frame.

There are other factors, but that should be enough to show that the reality of the situation is much more important than "potential" or "how things could be if..."

500 million people spread out across the globe and we could all live like kings while not taking extreme measures to protect the rest of nature.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26833143 - 07/19/20 09:53 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

i miss wilderness,
driving to find it is too manic and crowded


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26833180 - 07/19/20 10:18 PM (2 months, 4 days ago)

Imagine the dangers of being born into a system that automatically assumes you wanted it and disallowed dissenting voices as naive.......oh hang on.

Some people drive those very same cars of cliffs.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26833659 - 07/20/20 07:45 AM (2 months, 3 days ago)

Johnny's dissent revolves around dissembling lawn mowers on the kitchen table, and Jenny's about practicing nuclear physics in the basement; so the crux is personal space and patience. Untill I have self-healing walls and floors I need to learn walk around other people's messes which might include feces on the walls and pee on the floor. Impossible! So we coerce each other with rules and agreements for our sensual benefits and emotional stability so we don't fly off the handle and commit atrocities like poisoning Johnny and Jenny along with the fleas.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: Rahz]
    #26842569 - 07/24/20 01:59 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
There is a subjective aspect to it, so with that in mind I feel the Earth is overpopulated. ...




.    indeed seems subjective and in my mind the question cannot be separated from the issue of poverty, and quality of life.
.    Also having some little knowledge of ecosystems and biology we know that as population expands, wildlife, wilderness, and ecosystems are all gradually destroyed and replaced with pollution of all types, which eventually degrade the quality of life

Here are some links that just show images, no need to read anything. I'm linking 'cause its easier, than copying & pasting, and allows for more browsing, of multiple images, when one scrolls. I have skipped images of pollution and industry, as they are more familiar.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=kumba+mela+festival+in+2019&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mecca+pilgrimage&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=living+in+a+dump+in+India&t=hk&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=displacement+camps+in+Africa&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=100+mega+cities%2C+skyscrapers%2C+photos+&t=hk&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images

https://ak2.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/23164372/thumb/1.jpg

https://cdn.geekwire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/china-street-shutterstock_157021067-620x414.jpg


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.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: laughingdog]
    #26842614 - 07/24/20 02:39 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

pop growth seems to drive Real estate prices up

if pop growth stops, however, there will still be real estate pressure to higher prices in cities like Toronto.
why?

climate change resiliance,
political 'calm' - relatively,
'fresh' water - more or less naturally,
racial 'modernism' - melting pot society,
low covid death - semi-sane health care, and many mask wearers.

but to be honest, I think Homelessness is on the rise, here, and we need to have lower priced lodgings, and food, and social support to better serve that cohort.

Possibly, homelessness is a reflection of overpopulation. the state of  falling through the cracks in the system or of being squeezed out of one's tenuous niche.

And that's just it! as we get more population the lowest common denominator for the majority leaves a growing minority that cannot work with lowest common denominations.
The fringe types (like myself) have little in common with the center of the bell curve people, and the bell curve is dauntingly homogeneous. 
Big cities, by having more variety, are a bit more hospitable to weirdos and homeless, but it is still a problem.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26842640 - 07/24/20 02:52 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:


Possibly, homelessness is a reflection of overpopulation. the state of  falling through the cracks in the system or of being squeezed out of one's tenuous niche.






.    And then there is automation, & as a result, fewer jobs, then less income, then poorer education. Just as with the virus, and climate change all these things compound one another and an exponential  growth curve results.
.    More homeless then more despair, then more hard drug use, poorer hygiene, more kids that aren't properly cared for.
.    Basically the whole system is broken. Short term you are probably well situated to be in Canada.


--------------------


.  When I do not (or someone else does not) reply (to an antagonistic)  post), it does not necessarily mean that the "opponent" point is considered right. It would seem argument only makes sense between those who are both friends on some level, & on another metric also on a similar level, and when both have a commitment to learning. Perhaps therefore posts that can 'stand on their own', are probably more often, of more interest, to more folks.


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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26850494 - 07/28/20 08:46 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

We could only sustain a higher population if

- Everyone went vegan: This would free up a massive amount of land for reforestation and save a lot of water. It is far easier to feed people plants only than meat and dairy as well, as 65 billion herbivores killed a year need a LOT of crops and water, also requires a lot of transportation and produces a lot of waste (ignoring the trillions of marine animals)

-We transformed our energy usage: Fossil fuels just wont last, renewables or nuclear seems the way to go.

Obstacles? People don't like change. You ask someone to stop eating meat or dairy and it's like you've punched them in the face, the reality is meat is a symbol of social class amongst many nations, it's also very tasty and affordable due to government subsidies. There's BIG money in this industry, people aren't going to give it up overnight. As for fossil fuels, also big money and already well established, try convincing a politician with their pockets deep in fossil fuel money to invest in renewables. Fat chance.

Reality is we'll probably reach a point where these things become physically unsustainable, or die off in big numbers. I don't want that to happen (dying), but we can't have our cake and eat it.


Edited by AcidGandalf (07/28/20 08:47 PM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26850686 - 07/28/20 10:19 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

Why would we want to sustain a higher population? There are plenty of people around. As Rahz said, the subjective element exists -- subjectively, it just feels like there are too many of us. Anywhere you go, there are a lot of people. Appealing purely to natural principle, this many humans is an imbalance, and it has ramifications all over the place, many of which have been discussed in this thread, which has not at all been exhaustive.

Also, as far as going vegan -- appealing to natural principle once again, this would be anomalous and unnatural. Homo sapiens eats meat, just like wolves and tigers. Yes, we can get the required nutrients from certain well-constructed vegan diets, why go to the trouble? Meat is much more calorically effective. Instead of responsibly limiting our population we'll outlaw eating meat? As you suggest, that probably wouldn't fly. But I don't think the point is really whether we eat meat or not.

I'm not sure at what point we'll die off in big numbers, probably eventually, but I think there will indeed be a lot of pain.


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26850723 - 07/28/20 10:38 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

What’s the supposedly “ideal” human population - the one that’s best for the planet, other species, and all humans in general?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26850742 - 07/28/20 10:51 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

I would say one in which there is no misery, that is sustainable for the planet and not wantonly destructive. Without doing it exactly perfectly, 8 billion is not that. And we're a long way from perfect.

We are not separate from the planet. This seems too easily overlooked.


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Does it make any sense to say that Earth is not overpopulated? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26850769 - 07/28/20 11:09 PM (1 month, 26 days ago)

1804 is when wiki says the pop. was last about 1 billion.  I’d like to time travel and check it out for a while if I could hop back and forth between now & then freely.  Then again, if we went back to 1804 and did something to make sure the population didn’t grow past 1 billion - who knows what the implications would be / how history would have unfolded all the way up from then and until the present day.  It’s a real serious & tricky problem.  Considering we can’t ethically get rid of 6 billion people - the idea of drastically curtailing & controlling the population seems largely ineffectual.


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