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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26830983 - 07/18/20 03:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Charges against the parent company were dismissed, with the US knowing the Russians would never show up in court later.

Why didn't they dismiss the charges against Concord years ago when Concord voluntarily entered an appearance?

Probably to trick the gullible, hoping people wouldn't notice the dismissal years later.  It wasn't big new anywhere except alternative news.



I have already explained this to you several times. They dismissed the charges against Concord after it became clear that Concord was being used to gather all of the discovery so that the other defendants would have it. As I have said before, that is strategically the smartest move to make because Concord cannot be jailed, nor can fines being enforced against it.

That's the whole reason Concord appeared... to gather information.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26831026 - 07/18/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I have already explained this to you several times. They dismissed the charges against Concord after it became clear that Concord was being used to gather all of the discovery so that the other defendants would have it.  As I have said before, that is strategically the smartest move to make because Concord cannot be jailed, nor can fines being enforced against it.

That's the whole reason Concord appeared... to gather information.



Have discovery for WHAT?  We both know the other defendants were never going to spend tens of thousands just to show up and risk arrest and confinement in the United States.

Finding Concord guilty would have FINALLY given the US SOMETHING against Russia, even if no one went to jail (I doubt anyone really cares about the lowly individuals who worked for Concord and their subsidiary IRA anyway).


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26831044 - 07/18/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As I've already said many times, and the motion says, Concord was seeking classified information in discovery. Ultimately, they would have been entitled to that information.  This would have been fine, of course, if there would be some positive outcome, but there wouldn't be because Concord cannot be jailed nor effectively fined.  Instead, all that would have happened would have been the Russians getting classified information and no one ending up in jail.

I don't know how many times I have to say this.  You can read it in the motion.  If/when the individual defendants are apprehended, things will be different.  Until then, it would be terrible policy to just let them off scott free.

None of this is particularly outlandish stuff, though.  Cases get dismissed against small fish all the time because a conviction would require revealing a confidential informant or an undercover officer.  The charges against Concord were a small part of the case, so they dumped those.  You saying "the case was dropped" because a small piece was dismissed is just false.  It's not semantics.  It's you using intentionally misleading language in order to leave the illusion that there isn't a very real and pending criminal case.

As to your nonsense argument about some symbolic value to a conviction against concord, that is exactly the kind of political theatre that should NOT be a motivating factor in a criminal prosecution.  If we get an individual, even one, who is facing real time, we might be able to get information to work that up the chain of command to the real ringleaders.  This isn't a new tactic.  We know Concord was being paid by someone to do what they did.  Who?  Isn't that the real question?  We won't get an answer to that question without having an individual talk.

Besides, you don't find it odd that a foreign corporation with no American assets decided to hire a lawyer to fight a case in America?  You seem to think it would be stupid for the individuals to do so.  Why would the corporation do it?  Might it be so that the Russian government can find the assets used in the investigation through the discovery process?  That seems pretty likely, since that's exactly the discovery they're seeking.



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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26831189 - 07/18/20 05:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
As I've already said many times, and the motion says, Concord was seeking classified information in discovery. Ultimately, they would have been entitled to that information.  This would have been fine, of course, if there would be some positive outcome, but there wouldn't be because Concord cannot be jailed nor effectively fined.



You don't think the US FINALLY finding SOMETHING true about Russia-Gate wouldn't be a positive outcome?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Instead, all that would have happened would have been the Russians getting classified information and no one ending up in jail.



Who cares about a few lowly Russian Concord employees going to jail?  The goal is to make Russia look bad.

Quote:

Enlil said:
I don't know how many times I have to say this.  You can read it in the motion.  If/when the individual defendants are apprehended, things will be different.  Until then, it would be terrible policy to just let them off scott free.



We already know they're getting off scott free.  THEY'RE IN RUSSIA.

Quote:

Enlil said:
None of this is particularly outlandish stuff, though.  Cases get dismissed against small fish all the time because a conviction would require revealing a confidential informant or an undercover officer.  The charges against Concord were a small part of the case, so they dumped those.  You saying "the case was dropped" because a small piece was dismissed is just false.  It's not semantics.  It's you using intentionally misleading language in order to leave the illusion that there isn't a very real and pending criminal case.



You're saying the parent company was "small fish" and the lowly employees were the important ones?

Quote:

Enlil said:
As to your nonsense argument about some symbolic value to a conviction against concord, that is exactly the kind of political theatre that should NOT be a motivating factor in a criminal prosecution.  If we get an individual, even one, who is facing real time, we might be able to get information to work that up the chain of command to the real ringleaders.  This isn't a new tactic.  We know Concord was being paid by someone to do what they did.  Who?  Isn't that the real question?



We already know Concord was being paid by clickbait ads.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Besides, you don't find it odd that a foreign corporation with no American assets decided to hire a lawyer to fight a case in America?  You seem to think it would be stupid for the individuals to do so.  Why would the corporation do it?



As you already said, the corporation can't go to jail.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Might it be so that the Russian government can find the assets used in the investigation through the discovery process?  That seems pretty likely, since that's exactly the discovery they're seeking.



Concord is a private company.  They want the evidence against them which is their right.  We preferred to dismiss the case rather than showing we had something against them.  Your dream of the other employees coming to the US to face trial is obviously just that.


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26831205 - 07/18/20 05:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Says you. They wouldnt be the first foreign nationals apprehended.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26831236 - 07/18/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Keepin' the Russia-Gate dream alive...  :awethumb:

Hoping someday you'll be proven correct, even though the investigation is over.


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26831283 - 07/18/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yup...the investigation is over.  The prosecution is in process.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26831656 - 07/18/20 11:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's over dude.  Nothing's gonna happen.  In the very highly unlikely event that they catch the other Russians, I'll make a signature bet that the case will either get dismissed again, or the other Russians will win.

Again, we've already SEEN the evidence, it's been thoroughly analyzed, and there's nothing there.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26832150 - 07/19/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Unlike you, I don't pretend to know what I don't know.  I haven't seen the evidence.  If/when it has been presented in court, I'll form my opinion about the innocent/guilt of the people charged.  Until then, they enjoy the presumption of innocence. 

You declaring it "over" or that the case was dropped only tells me that you'll believe any narrative that is pro-Russia.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26832594 - 07/19/20 02:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

enjoy the presumption of innocence.




Last I checked, American trials do not assert someone to be guilty until proven innocent.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/19/20 02:01 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Vahn421]
    #26832610 - 07/19/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That's what i just said.


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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Vahn421]
    #26833018 - 07/19/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Last I checked, American trials do not assert someone to be guilty until proven innocent.




  If you ever find yourself as a defendant though there will be a prosecutor that believes you are guilty and he will spend the whole trial asserting you are .


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26833057 - 07/19/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Unlike you, I don't pretend to know what I don't know.  I haven't seen the evidence.



As I told you before:  "we've already SEEN the evidence, it's been thoroughly analyzed, and there's nothing there."  That's how I knew I'd win my bet in the first place, which I did, (even though everyone chickened out from taking it).

The report links to some very detailed data if you're ever interested in seeing the evidence yourself.

Quote:

Enlil said:
If/when it has been presented in court, I'll form my opinion about the innocent/guilt of the people charged.



It never will be presented in court, and I'll make a signature bet on that.  The problem is you'd argue 'never' could be over a billion years from now.  How about a timescale through the end of Trump's presidency?  If it's not presented in court by end of Trump's presidency (whenever that is), I win.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Until then, they enjoy the presumption of innocence.



Exactly.  The Russians are presumed innocent until proven guilty, which is what I've been saying.

Quote:

Enlil said:
You declaring it "over" or that the case was dropped only tells me that you'll believe any narrative that is pro-Russia.



First of all the case WAS dismissed against the PARENT company of everyone indicted, which you keep forgetting.

Second, I believe innocent until proven guilty.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26833061 - 07/19/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This is stupid.  We're going in circles.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26833186 - 07/19/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know.  You agreed innocent until proven guilty by evidence.  That's big progress to me.

Perhaps the part about me trying to get you to look at the evidence is going in circles if you're not interested.


I found this interview from the early 80's (before everyone could watch this kind of thing on the internet) from a former CIA officer who talks about how the CIA lies to the media to push for war and anti-communism (and/or also teams up with them), and who quit the CIA because he felt pushing for war was counterproductive to national security.  It's VERY interesting to anyone who's interested.



Of course, this isn't news to many of us, except those here who put blind faith in our intelligence.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26833286 - 07/19/20 09:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’m confused now , what does the CIA have to do with it ?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26833328 - 07/19/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If you watch the video, he talks about how the CIA/intelligence lies to promote war/hostility.

That's what they're clearly doing with Russia.  Just look at the evidence if you don't believe it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26833348 - 07/19/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The CIA can't operate on American soil against American citizens.  That video is outdated.


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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26833364 - 07/19/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

If you watch the video, he talks about how the CIA/intelligence lies to promote war/hostility.

That's what they're clearly doing with Russia.  Just look at the evidence if you don't believe it.




  Right but it’s the FBI that charged  Russians  .


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Ass handed to me [Re: Enlil]
    #26833371 - 07/19/20 10:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The CIA can't operate on American soil against American citizens.  That video is outdated.



He talks about that.  Watch from 6:10 to 6:48.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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