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InvisibleKmacmo
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Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about?
    #26818809 - 07/12/20 07:06 AM (1 month, 3 days ago)

Are sex and gender the same?
Why some people identify as something other than male/female.
Male/female is physical and can be proven.

If two trans people met and happened to identify as the same gender, would it be considered 'gay' for them to fuck?
Or do specific genders have other specific genders that they favour? (like male/female is commonly the dominant combo)
Even then it's not like people call each other by their gender, we have names.
So what is the actual use of your gender, apart from applying for a job or something?


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26820047 - 07/12/20 07:19 PM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Are sex and gender the same?




I see masculine and feminine (gender) as distinctive from male and female (sex). Those things are also distinctive from sexual preference, and or gender preference.

Gender in the individual is rarely either/or.
However, gender and sex are often related. That's why it's sometimes said that women embody femininity and same with men embodying masculinity. There are exceptions.
Sex in the individual is to a high degree one or the other, though a female body may have masculine characteristics and vice versa.
Sexual preference is generally for the opposite.
Gender preference contains some generalities but is more varied than sexual preference.

Quote:

Why some people identify as something other than male/female.




Because they don't want their sex to define them I guess. Sex doesn't define a person, but when there is the perception that it does it can create unhappiness.

Quote:

If two trans people met and happened to identify as the same gender, would it be considered 'gay' for them to fuck?




I think the encompassing word is queer.

Quote:

Or do specific genders have other specific genders that they favour? (like male/female is commonly the dominant combo)




a gender generally seeks it's opposite but there are exceptions. Also, male/female is not gender.

Quote:

So what is the actual use of your gender, apart from applying for a job or something?




Gender is a matter of behavior, based off typical physical form. Masculinity is protective, dominant, strong, assertive. Femininity is nurturing, supportive, gentle. If you disagree, keep in mind, gender is not sex nor is anyone only masculine or feminine. There are also negative traits that can be associated with masculine and feminine. Both negative and positive qualities of gender are somewhat subjective though there seems to be genetic and biochemical factors that contribute to gendered behavior.

Another trait that distinguishes gender is that the feminine want's to "shine", to be seen and heard, to be appreciated, to be loved. The masculine want's to love, to see and hear, to appreciate. The typical yin/yang symbol describes yin(feminine) as black and yang white. This could be because they are opposites which seek the other. IOW, yin wants to shine and yang is the light that wants to illuminate. It is often said that yin is seen in shadow.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26820129 - 07/12/20 08:45 PM (1 month, 2 days ago)

everyone carries a piece of this puzzle


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26820370 - 07/13/20 01:01 AM (1 month, 2 days ago)

My piece fell into the heating duck. :goose:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #26820449 - 07/13/20 04:20 AM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Quaaat!


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InvisibleJewstress
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26820565 - 07/13/20 07:06 AM (1 month, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Kmacmo said:
Are sex and gender the same?

By definition, no. Sex is your biological sex, male/female.  Gender is whatever you identify as.
Why some people identify as something other than male/female.
There is much debate and research still being done.  Some believe it is trauma related, some believe it is a genetic mutations, some believe that it is a choice. I am not sure we will ever know, I believe each case is individual.
Male/female is physical and can be proven.

If two trans people met and happened to identify as the same gender, would it be considered 'gay' for them to fuck?
This is where the idea of removing labels from relationships and letting love be love is important. And minding our own business.
Or do specific genders have other specific genders that they favour? (like male/female is commonly the dominant combo)
Even then it's not like people call each other by their gender, we have names.
So what is the actual use of your gender, apart from applying for a job or something?

Gender can lead to funding for certain things for certain organizations. Or advocacy and rights.




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InvisibleJewstress
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Jewstress] * 1
    #26820569 - 07/13/20 07:08 AM (1 month, 2 days ago)

As someone with a degree in social work, I was taught that sex is what you are physically born as.

Gender is however you identify with one of the millions of label choices out there these days... also I want to note... gender is not the same as LOVE/SEXUAL relationship preference.

So, if your sex is female and you identify as a woman/female your gender is female.  It doesn't matter if you want to fuck a girl, then you're a lesbian which is completely different than gender. I get uber frustrated when people try to use their preference as  gender thing too.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Jewstress]
    #26820632 - 07/13/20 08:10 AM (1 month, 1 day ago)

:whathesaid:


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InvisibleKmacmo
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26821095 - 07/13/20 01:08 PM (1 month, 1 day ago)

Some great input, informative and interesting. I shall have more respect for a person's right to choose.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Jewstress]
    #26821195 - 07/13/20 02:01 PM (1 month, 1 day ago)

Quote:

Jewstress said:
As someone with a degree in social work, I was taught that sex is what you are physically born as.

Gender is however you identify with one of the millions of label choices out there these days... also I want to note... gender is not the same as LOVE/SEXUAL relationship preference.

So, if your sex is female and you identify as a woman/female your gender is female.  It doesn't matter if you want to fuck a girl, then you're a lesbian which is completely different than gender. I get uber frustrated when people try to use their preference as  gender thing too.



great to see something meaningful and on topic.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26822031 - 07/13/20 10:16 PM (1 month, 1 day ago)

Transsexual fetish..?

Associations: The man wants a woman to penetrate him..

The man is turned on by woman who can take charge and/or act aggressively.. Having a penis is a sign of this on the shemales side.

The question becomes.. can the penis actually changed from male to female..?

There are lots of Hentai movies that go through a Lady that can either grow a penis or an extended clit..


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26822340 - 07/14/20 05:03 AM (1 month, 1 day ago)

I have close male friends, relatives who have this feminine aura around them the way they talk, think, act etc.. I see women in them. Even the pitch of their voice is,,, in between I would say.

They are happily married, they have kids. And I honestly dont think they desire man. They know their physiology is this way, but they live the life they choose. So it brings me to the conclusion that gender is optional.


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InvisibleJewstress
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: mkcobain]
    #26823721 - 07/14/20 06:50 PM (1 month, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

mkcobain said:
I have close male friends, relatives who have this feminine aura around them the way they talk, think, act etc.. I see women in them. Even the pitch of their voice is,,, in between I would say.

They are happily married, they have kids. And I honestly dont think they desire man. They know their physiology is this way, but they live the life they choose. So it brings me to the conclusion that gender is optional.





Truth, it's a mindset... not a state of physical being.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Jewstress] * 1
    #26824039 - 07/14/20 09:40 PM (1 month, 10 hours ago)

Feminine & Masculine, like any opposites are two sides of a coin :yinyang2:  If you only accept 1 side of the coin and always reject the other side, your in for some deluded living - and that makes everyone’s lives more difficult.

Similar to how some people only accept youth - and not the full aging process.  Creates problems when we cling to only 1 side of the coin / a perceptual slice of the whole as the only right way.  It’s extreme & radical if you really consider it in depth...


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OfflineDarwin23
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo] * 1
    #26824070 - 07/14/20 09:56 PM (1 month, 9 hours ago)

Quote:

Kmacmo said:
Are sex and gender the same?
Why some people identify as something other than male/female.
Male/female is physical and can be proven.

If two trans people met and happened to identify as the same gender, would it be considered 'gay' for them to fuck?
Or do specific genders have other specific genders that they favour? (like male/female is commonly the dominant combo)
Even then it's not like people call each other by their gender, we have names.
So what is the actual use of your gender, apart from applying for a job or something?




Trans Folks
It's really become muddy in the past decade. I blame it on the "everything is a social construct" idea which has been repeatedly proven incorrect time and time again. This is really a giant can of worms, tbh.

Here's the truth: humans have male hormones (androgens) and female hormones (estrogens). There is absolutely a dichotomy. Differences in those level of hormones don't move you along a continuum, that's a ridiculous idea. I am a male but likely have higher than normal estrogens just because of my genes. That so, I'm still classically male in every respect in my thinking and feeling. Likewise, my fiancee has actually been diagnosed with having excess androgens and while a bit weird, she is far more in line with the same kind of emotions and thinking as other females.

As far as transgender folks, there is actually a biological explanation for this. A few weeks after birth, baby boys get flooded with testosterone. This is commonly believed to be a masculinization of the brain. Sex differences show up before puberty, and that fact backs that up. Now imagine, for whatever biological glitch, a female has this same flood of testosterone or a male lacks it. It's reasonable to think they would grow up feeling like the wrong gender.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Darwin23]
    #26824087 - 07/14/20 10:12 PM (1 month, 9 hours ago)

I don’t think anyone is saying sex is a social construct.


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InvisibleJewstress
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26824515 - 07/15/20 07:12 AM (1 month, 39 minutes ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Feminine & Masculine, like any opposites are two sides of a coin :yinyang2:  If you only accept 1 side of the coin and always reject the other side, your in for some deluded living - and that makes everyone’s lives more difficult.






Actually according to Jung, the opposite gender is our shadow self, and we have to do a lot of shadow work to create balance.  It's more of an internal struggle than external.  Externally affects our internal unconscious which relates to the opposite sex.



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InvisibleJewstress
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Jewstress]
    #26824519 - 07/15/20 07:14 AM (1 month, 37 minutes ago)



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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Jewstress] * 1
    #26824939 - 07/15/20 11:12 AM (30 days, 20 hours ago)

that struggle is balance.  But,  experientially Internal & external are not 2.  They’re seamless.


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Edited by The Blind Ass (07/15/20 11:22 AM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26826173 - 07/16/20 12:39 AM (30 days, 7 hours ago)

I'm a masculine presenting transgender lesbian.

In other words, I used to be a straight dude that looks like a straight dude but I wanted a job and because my company needed to hit a female hiring quota I decided to be a woman.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/16/20 12:39 AM)


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InvisibleKmacmo
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26826685 - 07/16/20 10:25 AM (29 days, 21 hours ago)

That's genius 👩‍🏭👩‍🔬👩‍🔧


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26833691 - 07/20/20 06:22 AM (26 days, 1 hour ago)

Gender is just what we associate with penis bearing people and vagina bearing people

Like penis bearing people are tough
or vagina bearing people are receptive

its used to categorize people
has been used to organize societies

i think its mostly made up

the gender identity combined with reward and shaming can be used to make people into certain things

like blue collar workers or baby factories


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Freedom]
    #26833857 - 07/20/20 09:08 AM (25 days, 22 hours ago)

the made up stuff is largely toxic when we forget it is made up


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Freedom] * 1
    #26834696 - 07/20/20 05:58 PM (25 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Gender is just what we associate with penis bearing people and vagina bearing people

Like penis bearing people are tough
or vagina bearing people are receptive

its used to categorize people
has been used to organize societies

i think its mostly made up

the gender identity combined with reward and shaming can be used to make people into certain things

like blue collar workers or baby factories




Penis bearing people, who generally have more testosterone, are generally stronger, more likely to take risks, more likely to use physical violence. There are manipulative qualities that will vary by sex and biochemistry, though coming from very similar brains. Such manipulative behavior could be said to be immature, and certainly that is and has always been true, but same behavior can also be said to affect an individuals mating and material stability.

Through experience and maturity, other apparent qualities may arise where these physical and biochemical properties influence an expression of love and kindness. Males tend to be more protective while females tend to be more nurturing. There are always exceptions, which is why we describe penis and vagina as sexual male/female characteristics while gender is described as masculine/feminine. Masculinity is generally associated with males and vice versa because it's the most common expression. Trying to force sex and gender to be the same for all can traditionally be seen as a product of survival needs (males forcing each other to be tough, females being protected because of the value of their womb). However, when a female is as capable as a man it could be a mistake not to capitalize on it. At the same time, those who can, do, or at least attempt to and many women throughout history have been successful in traditionally male roles. There is less (but not zero) value in the feminine man since he does not have a womb.

But in today's world where technology and government is the "father" these traditional roles do not hold the same value. This could be seen as the reason sexual expression changes at the height of an empire even when technology was not as pronounced, where there are a plethora of wombs, few enemies and wealth has already been concentrated. Sexual expression becomes diverse while at the same time tilting towards a more feminine expression. Even at the height of such events I think males will generally be more masculine and females more feminine, simply because there is a genetic component that doesn't change with the seasons.


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rahz

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26834766 - 07/20/20 06:36 PM (25 days, 13 hours ago)

one of the big problems is that we jump to conclusions.

for now society needs us to be respectful of others in the way of how they love, which is not our business anyway.

hopefully this makes the complexity of mating more fun and not more problematic.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26834807 - 07/20/20 07:12 PM (25 days, 12 hours ago)

I remember disagreeing with you in the needs-vs-wants thread so while I don't entirely agree with you, my personal belief is that love and kindness is a good idea. There are only wants. Needs are ancillary. Humans being human.

:heart:


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rahz

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #26834915 - 07/20/20 08:16 PM (25 days, 11 hours ago)

is this when we exchange numbers?


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26834973 - 07/20/20 08:40 PM (25 days, 11 hours ago)

The start to a PS&P love story!

:winning:


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26836565 - 07/21/20 04:51 PM (24 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
is this when we exchange numbers?




I only like girls. I'm a bigot. :shrug:


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rahz

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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26836599 - 07/21/20 05:09 PM (24 days, 14 hours ago)

bring 'em!


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OfflineOldnameforgotten
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26837370 - 07/22/20 12:28 AM (24 days, 7 hours ago)

Here is my issue.


I dont give two fucks of a shit who people fuck or what they want to pretend to be.


My issue is that gender and sex is the same word. These movements are changing the definitions of words. I do not like that. My sex is male. My gender is male.


Make a new word for what you want I say. Or just say my sexual preference is X. I think this change of definitions is just to be difficult. Just to have something to bitch about.


Its also going to make a lot of people not receptive to the movement. Because it doesnt make sense.




But it doesnt matter now does it? This movement now has to end with a re-defining of the words Sex and Gender. How stupid is that? Literal semantics being played out on a worldwide scale. And people taking it fucking super seriously like it means something to know the difference between sex and gender.



God I just fucking hate it.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26837524 - 07/22/20 04:34 AM (24 days, 3 hours ago)

you think?

you are just resisting understanding and want everyone else to change to your old understanding.

that rigidity is not going to hold up, so let go, it's bigger than any of us.

adapt. evolve.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26837530 - 07/22/20 04:46 AM (24 days, 3 hours ago)

What am I holding on to? The definition of "sex" and "gender"? They are literally synonyms being changed so Trans people can argue semantics.

Its triggering grammar nazi's and making them seem like they are anti-trans. We are arguing semantics on a worldwide scale. Its madness. Absolute madness.



I know theres no backing up now. Because to say the words gender and sex mean the same thing is to be anti-trans. So we HAVE to change the definitions of these words.


They should have just came up with their own wording for shit that already existed in our lexicon.



No one rational is going to argue that trans people cant be trans. Or whatever else there is that people want to do. So we are stuck arguing semantics.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26837688 - 07/22/20 08:19 AM (23 days, 23 hours ago)

To make it easy, consider a "girly man" as an effeminate male. Gender is never cut and dry, but in this case the gender is leaning toward the feminine while the sex is male.

Some men are more masculine than others. Some women are more masculine than others. It's pretty simple. The terminology has been complicated by making sex and gender synonymous.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26837725 - 07/22/20 08:50 AM (23 days, 23 hours ago)

I am much more bothered by people who spell badly and use grammar improperly.
however, if I sweat when I hear the subjunctive abused, I have learned to keep it to myself. usually.

it's not easy being green.  :catfrog:


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26837950 - 07/22/20 10:33 AM (23 days, 21 hours ago)

I agree that we must adapt and evolve, that's what we've been doing all along.
Why can't people just be who they are without putting a label on themselves?
I'm sure there was many trans folk in the past, all be it they got shunned by society but no one ever has questioned the male/female system that Is a universal language.
They should make a new word instead of making gender and sex synonymous, as mentioned above.

We can choose any word we like and that's our gender, if everyone on the planet added their new unique title to their name it would be chaos. Having to learn a new unique word for every person and if you fuck up and call them wrongly then your ass is going to prison for being offensive.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26838173 - 07/22/20 12:11 PM (23 days, 19 hours ago)

that's a mixed up interpretation - you do not go to prison for not knowing another person's sexual or gender or ability, and making the wrong assumption, what you do go to court for, is if you step on another person's rights to fair access to goods and services.

so if you are selling advice you have to use the right terms when you do know what they are. and if you keep forgetting you may get interest charges to boot.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26838607 - 07/22/20 03:25 PM (23 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
To make it easy, consider a "girly man" as an effeminate male. Gender is never cut and dry, but in this case the gender is leaning toward the feminine while the sex is male.

Some men are more masculine than others. Some women are more masculine than others. It's pretty simple. The terminology has been complicated by making sex and gender synonymous.





Do you not see how what youre arguing is the definition of a word and not any context?

You are arguing semantics. Also youre wrong on them. In 1950 Sex and Gender meant the same thing.

The girly mans sex is male. The girly mans gender is male.




I am fully aware though that in this society we live in... the outrage from this simple change of definition.... will end with a reconstruction of what the words sex and gender mean. This bowing down and doing whatever offends less people is silly when it comes to literally re-defining words.

Sex MEANS Gender. They are literally the same.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26838615 - 07/22/20 03:30 PM (23 days, 16 hours ago)

I had a transgender woman once ask me to explain any differences between a man and a woman. Any one specific thing.

You point to the basics like "women can have children, they have breasts and ovaries."

The common rebuttal is "not ALL women can have children does it make them less of a woman?"

This kind of got me confused... "less of a woman?"

So then I asked him/her: "Ok you tell ME. What makes a woman a woman then, because YOU want to BE one... so what IS the difference? Clearly there IS one to you SOMETHING defines it, right? Otherwise you wouldn't want to BE a woman.... right?"

They had no answer beyond feelings like "it feels like me."

I'm still trying to figure it out.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 03:32 PM)


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26838880 - 07/22/20 05:29 PM (23 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
To make it easy, consider a "girly man" as an effeminate male. Gender is never cut and dry, but in this case the gender is leaning toward the feminine while the sex is male.

Some men are more masculine than others. Some women are more masculine than others. It's pretty simple. The terminology has been complicated by making sex and gender synonymous.





Do you not see how what youre arguing is the definition of a word and not any context?

You are arguing semantics. Also youre wrong on them. In 1950 Sex and Gender meant the same thing.

The girly mans sex is male. The girly mans gender is male.




I am fully aware though that in this society we live in... the outrage from this simple change of definition.... will end with a reconstruction of what the words sex and gender mean. This bowing down and doing whatever offends less people is silly when it comes to literally re-defining words.

Sex MEANS Gender. They are literally the same.




Just FYI since you think what language has represented in the past is important:

"In Old English they have 3 genders (masculine, neuter, feminine). [...] Note that the so-called "genders" were purely grammatical genders - they very often did not correspond to natural gender. For example the word ƿīf - "woman" is actually of the neuter (grammatical) gender, not the feminine (natural gender)."

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Old_English/Nouns

This is referring to, similarly to how modern romance languages still maintain, a gender identity for nouns. It's confusing on many fronts and a matter of memorization as opposed to something that can be seen or identified otherwise. The word for woman is not itself a feminine word in old english? A bit confusing isn't it? At one point that had some significance. Now it just seems so bizarre IMO. Some probably found it bizarre sooner than others. And there's probably someone out there who wants to maintain those standards because they think they are critical for understanding while the rest have moved on to understanding our current words with context.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838903 - 07/22/20 05:43 PM (23 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I had a transgender woman once ask me to explain any differences between a man and a woman. Any one specific thing.

You point to the basics like "women can have children, they have breasts and ovaries."

The common rebuttal is "not ALL women can have children does it make them less of a woman?"

This kind of got me confused... "less of a woman?"

So then I asked him/her: "Ok you tell ME. What makes a woman a woman then, because YOU want to BE one... so what IS the difference? Clearly there IS one to you SOMETHING defines it, right? Otherwise you wouldn't want to BE a woman.... right?"

They had no answer beyond feelings like "it feels like me."

I'm still trying to figure it out.



I think this line of thinking is good at uncovering the difficulty of pinning gender down to a specific attribute. When we try to find what makes women women, it's hard to find a single quality shared by all women (some cis women can't reproduce, or don't have breasts). You can point to chromosomes, but it doesn't feel like a satisfactory answer, since our understanding of men and women go far beyond this i.e. we can recognize a man or a woman as being such without knowing their genetic makeup. From there I think we have to recognize that much of gender is contained in how we perceive other people. At this point, most people will point to passing trans people and ask "in any social setting, wouldn't it make sense to refer to them as they are perceived?"

I think the argument gets weird at this point, since one can conclude that we should only recognize the preferred pronouns of passing trans folk. But it at least starts to show the social aspect of gender, which I think is the main gap between those that respect others preferred pronouns and those who believe gender is binary and determined by biology.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE]
    #26838914 - 07/22/20 05:50 PM (23 days, 14 hours ago)

Chromosomes.

Females are XX
Males are XY

At least, that’s the healthy genetic norm.

Which in turn gives rise to various differences that distinguish the 2.

And each of the 2 sexes produce their own specific gametes.

But that’s not really what’s being disputed, right?  Everyone (sorta) knows that. 


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE] * 1
    #26838915 - 07/22/20 05:51 PM (23 days, 14 hours ago)

True. I think people who get caught up on binary are similar to those who get caught up on a particular sports team, or those who get caught up on a particular religion. Nothing wrong with it. It's a big part of the population. And I think it serves a great purpose for many in terms of making sense of the world.

But it really feels simplistic to me and it's hard to not wish we could get past it and explore and have fun instead of defending our simplicity to the detriment of others


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE]
    #26838940 - 07/22/20 06:03 PM (23 days, 13 hours ago)

For me it's kinda simple.

In our physical bodies, we have a predetermined and binary gender with genetic variations and mutations in between. (I have a mutated eye, not mutated genitals, but I'm making my point.)

Out of body however, our souls are androgynous (perhaps with a gender preference, but androgynous all the same.)

I think the two get conflated. I find mortal bodies to be quite binary. Males have masculine primary and feminine secondary traits and women vice versa. Thousands of years have established what these traits ARE because the societies that adopted them were the ones that successfully outbred everyone else and established society.

This is why, I think, we have such universal understanding of what gender is, especially on a national level where our culture (and what we needed to do to survive) helped flush out those roles. NOWADAYS we can see society and children are on the decline the more any nation adopts androgynous views of gender and abandons those old ways. They will not survive the future, unfortunately. Only those that adopt traditional gender roles will... like Muslims.

This is not a moral argument. It's just nature. I don't wish it wasn't so any more than I wish it was so. It just is.

I sympathize with humans who want to expand their expression... I'm sure we all want to expand even if our issue isn't our gender expression specifically, but with this particular topic, I don't know how to reconcile it with the fact that societies that abandon traditional gender roles stop existing shortly thereafter. The more a society rejects the roles that allowed us to breed successfully, the less children.

So sometimes I wonder if advanced expressions of gender have been taken too far in this Earth life system.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 06:05 PM)


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838989 - 07/22/20 06:20 PM (23 days, 13 hours ago)

Yeah you may be right there. Hard to know what long-term natural selection will produce. IMO it could just as easily be that the Muslim way of life shifts more and more as a result of perpetual war, changing political dynamics, and economic decline which results in cultural changes to try and maintain strength. Ultimately I think you are picking a future that appeals to your sensibilities while pretending it's in the hands of some powerful force called "nature"


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #26839068 - 07/22/20 07:04 PM (23 days, 12 hours ago)

in the 1950's going to the park meant throwing garbage everywhere and just driving for no reason.

it's not the 50's anymore.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26839176 - 07/22/20 08:02 PM (23 days, 11 hours ago)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is why we can't have nice things :hissyfit:


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten] * 1
    #26839177 - 07/22/20 08:02 PM (23 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Do you not see how what youre arguing is the definition of a word and not any context?

You are arguing semantics. Also youre wrong on them. In 1950 Sex and Gender meant the same thing.

The girly mans sex is male. The girly mans gender is male.

I am fully aware though that in this society we live in... the outrage from this simple change of definition.... will end with a reconstruction of what the words sex and gender mean. This bowing down and doing whatever offends less people is silly when it comes to literally re-defining words.

Sex MEANS Gender. They are literally the same.




Perhaps we can agree that a car or boat when referred to as she doesn't indicate a vagina present?

Look up the etymology. The French polarized it to it's current usage and later the English to some degree decided it was strictly about sex organs. That narrow (dumbed down) view of 1950 obviously isn't sticking. The original context wasn't even strictly sex related and even today it's used in language studies to denote sub classes of words.

That doesn't mean the modern sexual identification dilemma isn't full of silliness. :shrug:


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26839259 - 07/22/20 08:45 PM (23 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Chromosomes.

Females are XX
Males are XY

At least, that’s the healthy genetic norm.

Which in turn gives rise to various differences that distinguish the 2.

And each of the 2 sexes produce their own specific gametes.

But that’s not really what’s being disputed, right?  Everyone (sorta) knows that. 




I listened to, but did not pay enough attention to, a neuroendocronologist who was interested in gender differences. And somewhere along the line he talked about certain genetic markers for gender differentiation that given certain mutations lead to things such as women who develop testes.

And it's pretty wild to think that we have genes that can send a chain of events cascading physiologically and that it isn't always a smooth process nor as controlled as we might like to believe. Mutations and damage occur. It's estimated that 1 in every 4500 births has some sort of genital anomalie, AKA gene expression anomaly (Sarafoglou K, Ostrer H. Familial sex reversal: a review. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2000). That's about 78,000 folks in the US alone who are "other" on the genital scale due to their genetic expression at birth.   

For example there are 2 pretty wild genes that are well known:
SRY Gene - Signal to create testicals (Y chromosome)
DAX 1 Gene - Signal to create ovaries (X chromosome)

People who possess the SRY gene but get a double dose of the DAX1 gene will have no testicals. So there are folks who are XY but are female. This isn't the only way this happens, but it's an easy one to look up at there is tons of literature on the SRY gene. And not to be left out but early researchers dropped the SRY Gene into XX chromosome mice embryos to see what would happen. And of course they developed testes and were identified as male mice. This has been seen in humans too of course once we knew we could look for it.

XX with the SRY gene is called De la Chapelle syndrome   
XY with the double DAX1 gene is called Swyers syndrome

Just a little sex education for the evening since I listened to that semi-recently


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26839274 - 07/22/20 08:48 PM (23 days, 11 hours ago)

Mutations are almost like a physical psychedelia made manifest.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26839296 - 07/22/20 08:56 PM (23 days, 10 hours ago)

Ride the wave baby!  :kittytakedown:


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Being unable to make what is just strong,
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26840418 - 07/23/20 11:30 AM (22 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Kmacmo said:

I agree that we must adapt and evolve, that's what we've been doing all along.
Why can't people just be who they are without putting a label on themselves?




I do find it curious - maybe it's a way to adopt an identity with a subgroup

The acronym gets longer and longer, with more and more labels

LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26841170 - 07/23/20 05:42 PM (22 days, 14 hours ago)

I dunno either but I haven't run into it outside of social causes/academia

My direct neighbors are 2 gay men. I've never once asked them if they are gay and they've never once been like Hey man, we're gay. We just get along like neighbors. Sharing tools here and there for yardwork and discussing what's happening in the community.

I kind of look at the question of labels with regards to activism akin to asking about the labels associated with conferences.

I just quickly typed in NOAA conferences and from the first link on the NOAA website I found a list of the following groups and events:

IISEF - Intel International Science and Engineer Fair
NMEA - National Marine Educators Association
NOSB - National Ocean Sciences Bowl (wtf? lol)
NSTA - National Science Teachers Association
NAAEE - North American Association for Environmental Education
and more!

So for a group of people who are actively pursuing social change through activism, community, and lobbying, I'd say the LGBT umbrella is really pretty tame when it comes to diverse and complex label systems. But I do think at least in part it's a way to organize and focus like-minded individuals. Like a conference does in the business and academic worlds.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26841504 - 07/23/20 08:30 PM (22 days, 11 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Kmacmo said:

I agree that we must adapt and evolve, that's what we've been doing all along.
Why can't people just be who they are without putting a label on themselves?




I do find it curious - maybe it's a way to adopt an identity with a subgroup

The acronym gets longer and longer, with more and more labels

LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)




If they keep going with their labels and categories, hopefully they'd realize what other ideologies have been trying to tell them this whole time which is basically that we're ALL so uniquely different we don't really belong to any category. We're all individuals. We should have an infinite number of letters, really, and each one should be one of us, not a group.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26842070 - 07/24/20 06:40 AM (22 days, 1 hour ago)

Why don't people get riled up about the millions of other groups that are out there? I hear the chess club is real dastardly because they want people to know they are individuals that play chess. They should really be the infininte hobby club. There are so many hobbies after all and no hobby is inherently better than the other.

The targeted angst about a very particular group is IMO indicative of an underlying bigotry as opposed to some issue with labels.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26842078 - 07/24/20 06:47 AM (22 days, 1 hour ago)

true
men are not men and women are not women
we are all individuals and once were all children
some become parents
life happens

sometimes love happens


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26842095 - 07/24/20 06:58 AM (22 days, 53 minutes ago)

I currently identify as a SMABDA

(S)hroomery (M)oderator are the first 2, the rest are left to the imagination


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26842119 - 07/24/20 07:25 AM (22 days, 26 minutes ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Why don't people get riled up about the millions of other groups that are out there? I hear the chess club is real dastardly because they want people to know they are individuals that play chess. They should really be the infininte hobby club. There are so many hobbies after all and no hobby is inherently better than the other.

The targeted angst about a very particular group is IMO indicative of an underlying bigotry as opposed to some issue with labels.




Because those millions of other groups don't care what you think of them or that you use their pronouns properly, but one particular group goes as far to send death wishes and get you fired from your job if you have a different opinion than they do.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26842341 - 07/24/20 09:49 AM (21 days, 22 hours ago)

Have any evidence? I run a business and have seen lawsuits for some pretty ridiculous stuff over the years. But not one from an LGBT individual.

I'm not saying those lawsuits don't exist. But I do doubt they occur more frequently than the others which are typically more ridiculous than someone who identifies as a woman being perpetually called a man. That's pretty disrespectful. Why be purposefully disrespectful to those who work for you? Horrible leadership and asking for issues.

I've employed a wide variety of folks. You know what the easiest part of my job is? Calling people by the name they want. I have a Katherine who's middle name is Sue and she prefers that. So I call her Sue. Could I refuse and be an ass about it? Sure, but why?

Same thing with individuals transitioning gender. I asked my employees that if they are confused as to how to refer to an individual, to just use their name. It isn't difficult and shows respect for someone doing the same job as you. Who cares what they identify as? Your opinion has nothing to do with their name.

Refusing basic accommodations are always a HR issue regardless of the area it surrounds.


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Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26850141 - 07/28/20 03:25 PM (17 days, 16 hours ago)

I just recently played putt putt with 4 females. I totally trashed them. I mean, it wasn't even close. And they all cheated hard core.

If I decided I was a girl I still would have kicked their ass.

Conclusion, males are superior.:yesnod:


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26850174 - 07/28/20 03:52 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

Being male and acting girly means youre a male who acts girly. It doesnt make you a "Mirly" or a "Gale" just because you like how it sounds.

I'm sorry if you want a new word for that or you dont like the wording that comes naturally. Your gender / sex doesnt change. Youre male.



But yeah eventually the politically correct climate we live in will cater to the needs of these people. And will change the definitions of words.




Imagine if they decided "profession" no longer meant the same thing as "job". And just made profession mean like.... what you wished you did for a living. Or some nonsense like that.


And I am not saying that in a way that is insulting people who want to act girly as a male. I'm saying that purely in the defense of the word "profession" forever meaning "job" and nothing else.





If you want to have an argument that fucking matters. Argue whether or not Males can act girly. You will find SIGNIFICANTLY less resistance. And honestly I bet that bores people. So they push until they find something that will garner resistance.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten] * 1
    #26850296 - 07/28/20 05:04 PM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

I'm sorry if you want a new word for that or you dont like the wording that comes naturally. Your gender / sex doesnt change. Youre male.





Here lies the disconnect; so many people fallaciously believe that language as it currently exists reflects some underlying truth about nature.

Just did a quick google search of the history of the word "profession," turns out it's been subject to change, just as all language is. It is simply false to assert that language is monolithic. https://www.etymonline.com/word/profession

As for your last point "argue about something that matters," trans people absolutely do matter. Whether or not you recognize their validity, you must admit that people who believe themselves to be trans do exist. And based on polls, we see that trans people are at a significantly higher risk of suicide than the general population. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/

Even if you believe all trans people to be delusional or suffering from a mental illness, doesn't this still warrant some care?


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Darwin23]
    #26850345 - 07/28/20 05:29 PM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

Very coherent explaination. This is the case when it comes to trans people, there's even been autopsies on closeted and non closeted transwomen that demonstarted structural differences in the brain that would lead one to think it is a female brain.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26850353 - 07/28/20 05:32 PM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

I personally don't see barbarism as progress, but each to their own. Gender is actually an ever changing thing, the ideals of men in the past was not as it is now. The nobles of the past were expected to exude a lot of grace thats now associated with women, today it is not the same.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: AcidGandalf]
    #26850376 - 07/28/20 05:43 PM (17 days, 14 hours ago)

I'll comment on this post because it relates to me personally. I'm diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the same condition trans people have, I am also autistic. I think the two are very much linked, in my case. (30% of trans people are autistic. I actually got diagnosed at the gender clinic, so no, they're not useless or grooming people. It was actually recommended that I don't transition if i'm not prepared to get a lot more sensory problems...so, I didn't. No point trading one issue for another.)

Some people just dont like being put into a personality and behaviour box based on their genitals, others don't even want the genitals they were born with and have a physical repulsion towards their own and even show neurological differences that have to originate during fetal development due to the way our brains develop (This has been documented in studies, its pretty fascinating).

Personally growing up I just didn't understand why we needed to treats males and females differently, i actually thought i'd get to choose and when I realise I had no choice I was upset. I've always been a very androgynous person. I was considering transitioning until I took LSD and had an ephiphany that, yes i'm probably autistic (was undiagnosed then), and that gender doesn't really matter. I visualised two color blobs dancing and molding into each other. The meat suit is temporary, and anyone who judges you based on your sex, or a change of sex is not someone to associate with. It's also important to be kind to people. You can think there's only females or males all you like, but being mean to someone who has transitioned is just rudeness.


Edited by AcidGandalf (07/28/20 05:46 PM)


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE]
    #26851114 - 07/29/20 04:52 AM (17 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

WASTE said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

I'm sorry if you want a new word for that or you dont like the wording that comes naturally. Your gender / sex doesnt change. Youre male.





Here lies the disconnect; so many people fallaciously believe that language as it currently exists reflects some underlying truth about nature.

Just did a quick google search of the history of the word "profession," turns out it's been subject to change, just as all language is. It is simply false to assert that language is monolithic. https://www.etymonline.com/word/profession

As for your last point "argue about something that matters," trans people absolutely do matter. Whether or not you recognize their validity, you must admit that people who believe themselves to be trans do exist. And based on polls, we see that trans people are at a significantly higher risk of suicide than the general population. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/suicidality-transgender-adults/

Even if you believe all trans people to be delusional or suffering from a mental illness, doesn't this still warrant some care?





THIS is exactly what I'm talking about lol.

At no point did I say trans people suck. Or girly men suck. Or whatever else exists out there. But because you guys are arguing semantics you can THINK I am saying that and you can FEEL righteous.

Its artificial. Its fake. Its fucking stupid.



We are literally arguing semantics on a worldwide stage. And youre doing it because if you argued "Trans people are allowed to be trans" you wouldnt get pushback. I'm sure there would be an odd one out here and there but for the most part no one says trans people cant be trans.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26851245 - 07/29/20 07:12 AM (17 days, 39 minutes ago)

You maintain that there is no distinction between sex and gender and that the LGBTQ community does draw a distinction. However, you're basically in agreement with them currently. A contrary gender identity denotes someone who thinks/feels like a different sex. Transsexual and Transgender means the same thing although there are some who prefer one over the other.

Considering gender to mean something other than biological sex is contrary to that. I've understood gender to be behavioral for as long as I can remember. I was born in the 70's. You are correct that it was used in English for hundreds of years as a synonym for sex. Apparently this happened because sex also implied fucking and people weren't comfortable with that. But it originally meant "kind" or type, meaning to draw an analogy for classification. When I started using the word it was used to classify behavior, gender being masculine and feminine of which we all have a mix, various polarities which we exhibit to one degree or another. Some people have a balanced gender which doesn't mean they identify as something other than their sex. So, it's actually me that disagrees with current usage.

:shrug:


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26851365 - 07/29/20 08:21 AM (16 days, 23 hours ago)

And how about my main point?

That this argument over definitions is a proxy war substituting outrage over people hating lgbt people?


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26851514 - 07/29/20 10:27 AM (16 days, 21 hours ago)

for some people
everything is a proxy war opportunity.
like a crafty concealed carry burning a hole in your pocketses


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26852032 - 07/29/20 02:41 PM (16 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
And how about my main point?

That this argument over definitions is a proxy war substituting outrage over people hating lgbt people?




Semantics are important when discussing the definition of words. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself.

I think both sides have some reasonable points, both sides have moderates that don't agree with everything their side says and can carry on a reasonable conversation. Turns out society is made of individuals.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26852079 - 07/29/20 03:05 PM (16 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
And how about my main point?

That this argument over definitions is a proxy war substituting outrage over people hating lgbt people?




Semantics are important when discussing the definition of words. I'm not speaking for anyone but myself.

I think both sides have some reasonable points, both sides have moderates that don't agree with everything their side says and can carry on a reasonable conversation. Turns out society is made of individuals.





I dont think there are many people who think trans people shouldn't be allowed to be trans.


And I think the argument over the definition of the word "gender" or "sex" is a way to be offended and pretend like someone who thinks "gender" means "sex" is actually a person who thinks trans people shouldnt be allowed to be trans.





It would be like.... say hating A/C Mechanics. And the belief system being presented is that "profession" has a different meaning from "job". And I say that "profession" and "job" mean the same thing. Then you reply with "You fucking hate A/C Mechanics you bigot!".



People are acting like this is some crazy controversial topic. It isnt.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26852196 - 07/29/20 04:12 PM (16 days, 15 hours ago)

Well, there's a difference between finding something reasonable and allowing it.

At any rate anything you say outside blatant agreement can and will be used against you.

There's a subset of polysexuals who suggest anything but polysexuality is bigotry.

One can't make everyone happy so why try?


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26852312 - 07/29/20 05:00 PM (16 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Well, there's a difference between finding something reasonable and allowing it.

At any rate anything you say outside blatant agreement can and will be used against you.

There's a subset of polysexuals who suggest anything but polysexuality is bigotry.

One can't make everyone happy so why try?



Quote:

Rahz said:
Well, there's a difference between finding something reasonable and allowing it.

At any rate anything you say outside blatant agreement can and will be used against you.

There's a subset of polysexuals who suggest anything but polysexuality is bigotry.

One can't make everyone happy so why try?





Why do people have to find Stamp collecting reasonable? Its a fucking waste of time. But people are allowed to do it.

If you reckon people need to find stuff "reasonable" then thats thought police shit and it can go fuck itself. No one has to think shit is reasonable.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26852320 - 07/29/20 05:08 PM (16 days, 14 hours ago)

Stamp books are all the rage in prison.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26852343 - 07/29/20 05:34 PM (16 days, 14 hours ago)

I noted a difference between thinking something is reasonable and "allowing it". People don't "need" to find things reasonable or not, it's just a natural occurrence of thought and if you take a moment to consider this conversation I think/hope you will find you think certain behaviors are unreasonable, even "fucking stupid".

So I think you're being obtuse and unreasonable at this point.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26852352 - 07/29/20 05:41 PM (16 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I noted a difference between thinking something is reasonable and "allowing it". People don't "need" to find things reasonable or not, it's just a natural occurrence of thought and if you take a moment to consider this conversation I think/hope you will find you think certain behaviors are unreasonable, even "fucking stupid".

So I think you're being obtuse and unreasonable at this point.





No. 100 percent not correct on what I am thinking.


I truly in my heart of hearts believe that the argument about what gender means is a way for people to pretend they are the righteous white knight coming to save all who are opressed.


I BELIEVE that. I think people are arguing this because if they argued that trans people matter no one would push back against it. And that bothers them. They want a fight.


I am NOT being obtuse. I am NOT being difficult or beating around the bush. I am being as direct as physically possible. I am saying exactly what I think.



For the most part no one gives two fucks of a shit about trans people being trans or gay people being gay. And I think also people dont care if youre male and act girly or if youre fucking women or fucking trans people. Thats not a topic of relevance.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26852427 - 07/29/20 06:30 PM (16 days, 13 hours ago)

You said "If you reckon people need to find stuff "reasonable" then thats thought police shit and it can go fuck itself."

What's reasonable or not is at worst an opinion. So what you seemed to be saying is that having opinions is thought policing. Telling me it's not right to have an opinion in consideration of what is reasonable or not is thought policing. Just disagree.

And if you think in the context of our conversation that I'm pretending to be a righteous white knight, then you are being obtuse because you don't seem to have acknowledged a word I've said on the subject, and instead perhaps suspect that I'm being disingenuous. That at least is the impression I am getting.

You suggest "people" get upset and outraged over the subject, yet you are the only person in this thread that seems particularly bothered and slinging slander. It's okay for you to think certain behaviors are unreasonable and stupid, but heaven forbid I have an opinion on stamp collecting.

The reality is that gender has more than one connotation/definition and that's what makes it confusing. Sometimes gender is sex and sometimes gender is gender/not sex. This occurs not just in apparently disparate groups but also in the apparent context of a singular community (which is just an illusion/politics IMO). What would be more simple is to say sex is sex and gender is gender. While I don't think it is reasonable, it would also be simple to say sex and gender are sex and masculine/feminine have nothing to do with gender. Neither of those simplifications are going to happen though. There will be a plethora of vernaculars and it will be confusing. Babylon... not that I'm theistic but the story makes a point when not taken literally.

And this whole "X people matter" meme is suspect. Another social trend in which those who scream it the loudest will exclude X people from mattering when they have a difference of opinion. Blacks who say all people matter for instance are "coons". You can be X and be "cancelled" because you don't tow the line. Thought police.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26852793 - 07/29/20 11:24 PM (16 days, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

For the most part no one gives two fucks of a shit about trans people being trans or gay people being gay. And I think also people dont care if youre male and act girly or if youre fucking women or fucking trans people. Thats not a topic of relevance.




I agree. And most people don't care about your other preferences, such as what food you prefer, the type of movies you enjoy, or what color you like your bathroom painted. To define yourself by your sexual preference is a personal problem.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26852971 - 07/30/20 05:13 AM (16 days, 2 hours ago)

google and facebook care about your preferences and your sex as well as your gender proclivity.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Rahz]
    #26853604 - 07/30/20 01:37 PM (15 days, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
You said "If you reckon people need to find stuff "reasonable" then thats thought police shit and it can go fuck itself."

What's reasonable or not is at worst an opinion. So what you seemed to be saying is that having opinions is thought policing. Telling me it's not right to have an opinion in consideration of what is reasonable or not is thought policing. Just disagree.

And if you think in the context of our conversation that I'm pretending to be a righteous white knight, then you are being obtuse because you don't seem to have acknowledged a word I've said on the subject, and instead perhaps suspect that I'm being disingenuous. That at least is the impression I am getting.

You suggest "people" get upset and outraged over the subject, yet you are the only person in this thread that seems particularly bothered and slinging slander. It's okay for you to think certain behaviors are unreasonable and stupid, but heaven forbid I have an opinion on stamp collecting.

The reality is that gender has more than one connotation/definition and that's what makes it confusing. Sometimes gender is sex and sometimes gender is gender/not sex. This occurs not just in apparently disparate groups but also in the apparent context of a singular community (which is just an illusion/politics IMO). What would be more simple is to say sex is sex and gender is gender. While I don't think it is reasonable, it would also be simple to say sex and gender are sex and masculine/feminine have nothing to do with gender. Neither of those simplifications are going to happen though. There will be a plethora of vernaculars and it will be confusing. Babylon... not that I'm theistic but the story makes a point when not taken literally.

And this whole "X people matter" meme is suspect. Another social trend in which those who scream it the loudest will exclude X people from mattering when they have a difference of opinion. Blacks who say all people matter for instance are "coons". You can be X and be "cancelled" because you don't tow the line. Thought police.





How have we had a back and forth for this long and you not once mention what I'm talking about???


The correct defining of these words is a way for people to argue and pretend they are arguing about trans people being allowed to be trans. It is a battle about semantics on a worldwide stage.


If you argued that trans people are allowed to be trans you wouldnt get any pushback and that would bore the shit out of you.











[Also the thought policing thing is you saying people should find Trans people reasonable. People are allowed to find it unreasonable if they want.]


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26853675 - 07/30/20 02:08 PM (15 days, 17 hours ago)






The correct defining of these words is a way for people to argue and pretend they are arguing about trans people being allowed to be trans. It is a battle about semantics on a worldwide stage.


If you argued that trans people are allowed to be trans you wouldnt get any pushback and that would bore the shit out of you.





Allowing people to be trans means different things to different people. For some it means recognizing their right to use whichever bathroom correlates to their gender identity. It means respecting the pronouns that they choose for themselves. These are things considered fundamental to trans peoples ability to exist as trans people, yet theres constant pushback against these two specific issues, so it seems that there isn't a wide held agreement to allow trans people to be trans.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten]
    #26853697 - 07/30/20 02:16 PM (15 days, 17 hours ago)

Nowhere did I say people should find trans people reasonable, hence the reason you seem obtuse. I only said whether something should be allowed is a different issue than whether something is reasonable. I think we actually agree, you just didn't understand my reply.

Maybe in some cases you're right because some people are looking for reasons to be offended, but I don't think generally that suggesting sex and gender are the same makes people think you don't want to allow trans to be trans. Literally no one here said that or suggested it as far as I remember. I even mentioned that in the LGBT community there are those who consider sex and gender to be the same. I don't know what more to say about it.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #26855941 - 07/31/20 05:57 PM (14 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:

For the most part no one gives two fucks of a shit about trans people being trans or gay people being gay. And I think also people dont care if youre male and act girly or if youre fucking women or fucking trans people. Thats not a topic of relevance.




I agree. And most people don't care about your other preferences, such as what food you prefer, the type of movies you enjoy, or what color you like your bathroom painted. To define yourself by your sexual preference is a personal problem.





Could also be said about race, intelligence, height, weight, temperament, yadda yadda. But sometimes the world makes it an issue for a person to navigate with these qualities rather than the individual having issues themselves. At least initially. People adapt in strange ways to persistent external pressures. I think that side of the coin may be getting overlooked in your assessment.

I do agree that our populace at large (myself included) has ego issues that cause us to identify with all sorts of stupid stuff. And that is a big issue. But I really think that in this case, it's a reductionist cop-out of cause that could be said for any form of identity.


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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26857428 - 08/01/20 03:17 PM (13 days, 16 hours ago)

In my experience some people absolutely do care how you express. Not everyone, but a lot of loud and very vocal people do take issue. I know a lot of males who acted 'feminine' and were tormented for it, I also know trans people who had slurs shouted at them in the street. Of course, I have also seen a reduction in this sort of behaviour. Many will also act civil to your face but ridicule you to others, this goes for a lot of things.


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