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OfflineWASTE
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838903 - 07/22/20 05:43 PM (23 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I had a transgender woman once ask me to explain any differences between a man and a woman. Any one specific thing.

You point to the basics like "women can have children, they have breasts and ovaries."

The common rebuttal is "not ALL women can have children does it make them less of a woman?"

This kind of got me confused... "less of a woman?"

So then I asked him/her: "Ok you tell ME. What makes a woman a woman then, because YOU want to BE one... so what IS the difference? Clearly there IS one to you SOMETHING defines it, right? Otherwise you wouldn't want to BE a woman.... right?"

They had no answer beyond feelings like "it feels like me."

I'm still trying to figure it out.



I think this line of thinking is good at uncovering the difficulty of pinning gender down to a specific attribute. When we try to find what makes women women, it's hard to find a single quality shared by all women (some cis women can't reproduce, or don't have breasts). You can point to chromosomes, but it doesn't feel like a satisfactory answer, since our understanding of men and women go far beyond this i.e. we can recognize a man or a woman as being such without knowing their genetic makeup. From there I think we have to recognize that much of gender is contained in how we perceive other people. At this point, most people will point to passing trans people and ask "in any social setting, wouldn't it make sense to refer to them as they are perceived?"

I think the argument gets weird at this point, since one can conclude that we should only recognize the preferred pronouns of passing trans folk. But it at least starts to show the social aspect of gender, which I think is the main gap between those that respect others preferred pronouns and those who believe gender is binary and determined by biology.


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE]
    #26838914 - 07/22/20 05:50 PM (23 days, 13 hours ago)

Chromosomes.

Females are XX
Males are XY

At least, that’s the healthy genetic norm.

Which in turn gives rise to various differences that distinguish the 2.

And each of the 2 sexes produce their own specific gametes.

But that’s not really what’s being disputed, right?  Everyone (sorta) knows that. 


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE] * 1
    #26838915 - 07/22/20 05:51 PM (23 days, 13 hours ago)

True. I think people who get caught up on binary are similar to those who get caught up on a particular sports team, or those who get caught up on a particular religion. Nothing wrong with it. It's a big part of the population. And I think it serves a great purpose for many in terms of making sense of the world.

But it really feels simplistic to me and it's hard to not wish we could get past it and explore and have fun instead of defending our simplicity to the detriment of others


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: WASTE]
    #26838940 - 07/22/20 06:03 PM (23 days, 12 hours ago)

For me it's kinda simple.

In our physical bodies, we have a predetermined and binary gender with genetic variations and mutations in between. (I have a mutated eye, not mutated genitals, but I'm making my point.)

Out of body however, our souls are androgynous (perhaps with a gender preference, but androgynous all the same.)

I think the two get conflated. I find mortal bodies to be quite binary. Males have masculine primary and feminine secondary traits and women vice versa. Thousands of years have established what these traits ARE because the societies that adopted them were the ones that successfully outbred everyone else and established society.

This is why, I think, we have such universal understanding of what gender is, especially on a national level where our culture (and what we needed to do to survive) helped flush out those roles. NOWADAYS we can see society and children are on the decline the more any nation adopts androgynous views of gender and abandons those old ways. They will not survive the future, unfortunately. Only those that adopt traditional gender roles will... like Muslims.

This is not a moral argument. It's just nature. I don't wish it wasn't so any more than I wish it was so. It just is.

I sympathize with humans who want to expand their expression... I'm sure we all want to expand even if our issue isn't our gender expression specifically, but with this particular topic, I don't know how to reconcile it with the fact that societies that abandon traditional gender roles stop existing shortly thereafter. The more a society rejects the roles that allowed us to breed successfully, the less children.

So sometimes I wonder if advanced expressions of gender have been taken too far in this Earth life system.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/22/20 06:05 PM)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26838989 - 07/22/20 06:20 PM (23 days, 12 hours ago)

Yeah you may be right there. Hard to know what long-term natural selection will produce. IMO it could just as easily be that the Muslim way of life shifts more and more as a result of perpetual war, changing political dynamics, and economic decline which results in cultural changes to try and maintain strength. Ultimately I think you are picking a future that appeals to your sensibilities while pretending it's in the hands of some powerful force called "nature"


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #26839068 - 07/22/20 07:04 PM (23 days, 11 hours ago)

in the 1950's going to the park meant throwing garbage everywhere and just driving for no reason.

it's not the 50's anymore.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26839176 - 07/22/20 08:02 PM (23 days, 10 hours ago)

I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is why we can't have nice things :hissyfit:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Oldnameforgotten] * 1
    #26839177 - 07/22/20 08:02 PM (23 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

Oldnameforgotten said:
Do you not see how what youre arguing is the definition of a word and not any context?

You are arguing semantics. Also youre wrong on them. In 1950 Sex and Gender meant the same thing.

The girly mans sex is male. The girly mans gender is male.

I am fully aware though that in this society we live in... the outrage from this simple change of definition.... will end with a reconstruction of what the words sex and gender mean. This bowing down and doing whatever offends less people is silly when it comes to literally re-defining words.

Sex MEANS Gender. They are literally the same.




Perhaps we can agree that a car or boat when referred to as she doesn't indicate a vagina present?

Look up the etymology. The French polarized it to it's current usage and later the English to some degree decided it was strictly about sex organs. That narrow (dumbed down) view of 1950 obviously isn't sticking. The original context wasn't even strictly sex related and even today it's used in language studies to denote sub classes of words.

That doesn't mean the modern sexual identification dilemma isn't full of silliness. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

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“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26839259 - 07/22/20 08:45 PM (23 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Chromosomes.

Females are XX
Males are XY

At least, that’s the healthy genetic norm.

Which in turn gives rise to various differences that distinguish the 2.

And each of the 2 sexes produce their own specific gametes.

But that’s not really what’s being disputed, right?  Everyone (sorta) knows that. 




I listened to, but did not pay enough attention to, a neuroendocronologist who was interested in gender differences. And somewhere along the line he talked about certain genetic markers for gender differentiation that given certain mutations lead to things such as women who develop testes.

And it's pretty wild to think that we have genes that can send a chain of events cascading physiologically and that it isn't always a smooth process nor as controlled as we might like to believe. Mutations and damage occur. It's estimated that 1 in every 4500 births has some sort of genital anomalie, AKA gene expression anomaly (Sarafoglou K, Ostrer H. Familial sex reversal: a review. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 2000). That's about 78,000 folks in the US alone who are "other" on the genital scale due to their genetic expression at birth.   

For example there are 2 pretty wild genes that are well known:
SRY Gene - Signal to create testicals (Y chromosome)
DAX 1 Gene - Signal to create ovaries (X chromosome)

People who possess the SRY gene but get a double dose of the DAX1 gene will have no testicals. So there are folks who are XY but are female. This isn't the only way this happens, but it's an easy one to look up at there is tons of literature on the SRY gene. And not to be left out but early researchers dropped the SRY Gene into XX chromosome mice embryos to see what would happen. And of course they developed testes and were identified as male mice. This has been seen in humans too of course once we knew we could look for it.

XX with the SRY gene is called De la Chapelle syndrome   
XY with the double DAX1 gene is called Swyers syndrome

Just a little sex education for the evening since I listened to that semi-recently


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OnlineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26839274 - 07/22/20 08:48 PM (23 days, 10 hours ago)

Mutations are almost like a physical psychedelia made manifest.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps - or -  give me death caps


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26839296 - 07/22/20 08:56 PM (23 days, 10 hours ago)

Ride the wave baby!  :kittytakedown:


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26840418 - 07/23/20 11:30 AM (22 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Kmacmo said:

I agree that we must adapt and evolve, that's what we've been doing all along.
Why can't people just be who they are without putting a label on themselves?




I do find it curious - maybe it's a way to adopt an identity with a subgroup

The acronym gets longer and longer, with more and more labels

LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26841170 - 07/23/20 05:42 PM (22 days, 13 hours ago)

I dunno either but I haven't run into it outside of social causes/academia

My direct neighbors are 2 gay men. I've never once asked them if they are gay and they've never once been like Hey man, we're gay. We just get along like neighbors. Sharing tools here and there for yardwork and discussing what's happening in the community.

I kind of look at the question of labels with regards to activism akin to asking about the labels associated with conferences.

I just quickly typed in NOAA conferences and from the first link on the NOAA website I found a list of the following groups and events:

IISEF - Intel International Science and Engineer Fair
NMEA - National Marine Educators Association
NOSB - National Ocean Sciences Bowl (wtf? lol)
NSTA - National Science Teachers Association
NAAEE - North American Association for Environmental Education
and more!

So for a group of people who are actively pursuing social change through activism, community, and lobbying, I'd say the LGBT umbrella is really pretty tame when it comes to diverse and complex label systems. But I do think at least in part it's a way to organize and focus like-minded individuals. Like a conference does in the business and academic worlds.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #26841504 - 07/23/20 08:30 PM (22 days, 10 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Kmacmo said:

I agree that we must adapt and evolve, that's what we've been doing all along.
Why can't people just be who they are without putting a label on themselves?




I do find it curious - maybe it's a way to adopt an identity with a subgroup

The acronym gets longer and longer, with more and more labels

LGBTTQQIAAP (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, transsexual, queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, ally, pansexual)




If they keep going with their labels and categories, hopefully they'd realize what other ideologies have been trying to tell them this whole time which is basically that we're ALL so uniquely different we don't really belong to any category. We're all individuals. We should have an infinite number of letters, really, and each one should be one of us, not a group.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26842070 - 07/24/20 06:40 AM (22 days, 16 minutes ago)

Why don't people get riled up about the millions of other groups that are out there? I hear the chess club is real dastardly because they want people to know they are individuals that play chess. They should really be the infininte hobby club. There are so many hobbies after all and no hobby is inherently better than the other.

The targeted angst about a very particular group is IMO indicative of an underlying bigotry as opposed to some issue with labels.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421]
    #26842078 - 07/24/20 06:47 AM (22 days, 10 minutes ago)

true
men are not men and women are not women
we are all individuals and once were all children
some become parents
life happens

sometimes love happens


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26842095 - 07/24/20 06:58 AM (21 days, 23 hours ago)

I currently identify as a SMABDA

(S)hroomery (M)oderator are the first 2, the rest are left to the imagination


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26842119 - 07/24/20 07:25 AM (21 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Why don't people get riled up about the millions of other groups that are out there? I hear the chess club is real dastardly because they want people to know they are individuals that play chess. They should really be the infininte hobby club. There are so many hobbies after all and no hobby is inherently better than the other.

The targeted angst about a very particular group is IMO indicative of an underlying bigotry as opposed to some issue with labels.




Because those millions of other groups don't care what you think of them or that you use their pronouns properly, but one particular group goes as far to send death wishes and get you fired from your job if you have a different opinion than they do.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26842341 - 07/24/20 09:49 AM (21 days, 21 hours ago)

Have any evidence? I run a business and have seen lawsuits for some pretty ridiculous stuff over the years. But not one from an LGBT individual.

I'm not saying those lawsuits don't exist. But I do doubt they occur more frequently than the others which are typically more ridiculous than someone who identifies as a woman being perpetually called a man. That's pretty disrespectful. Why be purposefully disrespectful to those who work for you? Horrible leadership and asking for issues.

I've employed a wide variety of folks. You know what the easiest part of my job is? Calling people by the name they want. I have a Katherine who's middle name is Sue and she prefers that. So I call her Sue. Could I refuse and be an ass about it? Sure, but why?

Same thing with individuals transitioning gender. I asked my employees that if they are confused as to how to refer to an individual, to just use their name. It isn't difficult and shows respect for someone doing the same job as you. Who cares what they identify as? Your opinion has nothing to do with their name.

Refusing basic accommodations are always a HR issue regardless of the area it surrounds.


--------------------
Being unable to make what is just strong,
we have made what is strong just. -- Pascal

Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Transgenders, genders, sex... what's it all about? [Re: Kickle]
    #26850141 - 07/28/20 03:25 PM (17 days, 15 hours ago)

I just recently played putt putt with 4 females. I totally trashed them. I mean, it wasn't even close. And they all cheated hard core.

If I decided I was a girl I still would have kicked their ass.

Conclusion, males are superior.:yesnod:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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