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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep
#26817459 - 07/11/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I recently prepped my coir following BOD's insulated bucket procedure and was surprised to find that my coir was WAY too wet, despite having used the exact same mass of coir, brand of coir, and volume as water as usual -- WTF? A heavy stream of water would flow out when I squeezed it. I didn't have any vermiculite so I tossed that batch of coir and tried again. For this second attempt, I changed two things:
1. The first attempt I didn't have time to mix the coir an hour after adding the water. The second time I did. 2. The first attempt I had the lid on the pot when I was boiling the water. The second time I had the lid off.
The second coir prep was way drier. Only a few drops flowed out when I squeezed it. Both preps had some dry patches of coir, but I mixed those in well before testing field capacity.
This suggests to me that if the lid is off, a significant amount of water evaporates as the 3.25 L is brought to a rolling boil, and having the lid on during boiling prevents that loss of water. I usually don't cover the pot. For my last grow - in which the coir was too wet and colonized very slowly - I'm fairly sure I covered the pot, but I'm not certain.
Has anyone else noticed this? It seems hard to believe, but if evaporation due to the lid being on or off as you bring the water to a boil can cause that much variability, it seems important to know. If true, BOD's substrate prep only works with the lid OFF during boiling. Or there could be something else going on that I'm not noticing. Thoughts?
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My exact procedure:
1. Measure 3.25 L water and bring to a boil in my pressure cooker (lid either on or off) 2. Weigh 650 g coir (I do this every time because my bricks are not consistent at all) and place it in an insulated cooler 3. When the water reaches a pretty heavy boil, pour it over the coir and cover 4. Optional: about 1 hour later, stir the coir to distribute the water 5. About 12 hours later, check field capacity and spawn
Edited by replyom (07/11/20 06:48 PM)
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Goatrider
Rhythm Guitarist



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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26817580 - 07/11/20 03:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why did you toss the wet coir? You could dry it in the oven.
There are different brands of coir, so your needed water content may vary.
I always have to stay little under 3 liters for a brick for field capacity.
Always with lid on bucket to hold temperature for a time.
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Goatrider]
#26817635 - 07/11/20 03:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Goatrider said: Why did you toss the wet coir? You could dry it in the oven.
Too busy/lazy to mess around with the oven, and I wanted to troubleshoot.
Quote:
Goatrider said: There are different brands of coir, so your needed water content may vary.
I have always used the same brand of coir (I should have mentioned that above, edited it in now), so it isn't that.
Quote:
Goatrider said: I always have to stay little under 3 liters for a brick for field capacity.
Always with lid on bucket to hold temperature for a time.
Good info, thanks - but do you have the lid on the POT when you're boiling the water?
Edited by replyom (07/11/20 03:36 PM)
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Goatrider
Rhythm Guitarist



Registered: 04/08/20
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26817645 - 07/11/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ah fuck, my bad, i misread.
Yeah, boiling with lid always.
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Sits
Shady Vagrant


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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Goatrider]
#26817890 - 07/11/20 05:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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You threw away your coir because it was too wet? This makes me cringe so hard. You could've just squeezed the water out, doesn't take long.
Obviously water evaporates quickly without a lid on. This is common sense. This is why we use teks, you keep the method the same and change the variables until you achieve the desired results.
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Sits]
#26817947 - 07/11/20 06:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sits said: You threw away your coir because it was too wet? This makes me cringe so hard. You could've just squeezed the water out, doesn't take long
It's cheap af, I was in a hurry, I didn't want to fuck around, and I wanted to troubleshoot and get it closer to FC the first time.
Quote:
Sits said: Obviously water evaporates quickly without a lid on. This is common sense. This is why we use teks, you keep the method the same and change the variables until you achieve the desired results.
If it's so obvious that the lid being on or off drastically alters the amount of water going into your substrate, then why do literally no teks specify whether the lid should be on or off, so you just have to guess and then wonder what went wrong when it doesn't come out anywhere close to how it should be...
Edited by replyom (07/11/20 06:12 PM)
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Sits
Shady Vagrant


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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26817967 - 07/11/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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They don't mention it because it's common sense.
Water turns into steam and evaporates rapidly when you boil it. I don't know what else to tell you?
What is the point of this thread?
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Sits]
#26818005 - 07/11/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sits said: They don't mention it because it's common sense.
So if you were writing a substrate prep tek, and you knew that the volume of water you recommended only produced the desired result if you kept the lid off of the pot when boiling the water, you wouldn't mention whether or not the person following the tek should have the lid on or off of the pot because... "it's common sense"?
What?
Quote:
Sits said: Water turns into steam and evaporates rapidly when you boil it. I don't know what else to tell you?
But does it evaporate rapidly as it is transitioning from room temperature to a boil? Does the volume lost during this period make a significant difference with regards to the field capacity of a brick of coir? To argue that these are common knowledge is absurd.
If you don't understand what's being discussed in this thread then just stop posting in it. I'm looking for a discussion, not whatever it is you're doing.
Edited by replyom (07/11/20 07:10 PM)
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Sits
Shady Vagrant


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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26818183 - 07/11/20 08:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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My point is you have already observed the results. Lid off you're going to have less water, lid on you're going to have more water. Adjust accordingly and keep growing shrooms!
No amount of discussion is going to change the fact that you'll have to adjust teks slightly for your exact scenario.
If you want to run an experiment and write your own tek, go for it! More power to you! Just saying it won't help you grow shrooms any better.
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Sits]
#26818217 - 07/11/20 08:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sits said: My point is you have already observed the results. Lid off you're going to have less water, lid on you're going to have more water. Adjust accordingly and keep growing shrooms!
No amount of discussion is going to change the fact that you'll have to adjust teks slightly for your exact scenario.
If you want to run an experiment and write your own tek, go for it! More power to you! Just saying it won't help you grow shrooms any better.
And my point is that if this is the whole answer, then every single substrate tek here is missing a HUGE piece of information. "You'll have to adjust the teks slightly" is a pretty huge euphemism for "the teks are missing a critical piece of information and are therefore incomplete". You shouldn't need to adjust slightly unless you're dealing with, say, environmental factors like humidity.
One thing I hoped to discuss with those who may have noticed (or not noticed) this overlooked aspect of substrate prep teks: if you cover the pot while boiling (which should be the standard to remove the variable of time on the stove), how much water do you use per x grams of coir? In my experience, BOD's recommendation of 3.25 L per 650 g is far too much water if you don't lose some to evaporation. So what's the real number? It is an exact number. There's no reason that one should have to make slight adjustments here. And look at that, Goatrider supplied such information: in his experience, a brick of coir (not sure if he measures his bricks) needs a little under 3 L if you cover the pot while bringing the water to a boil. Depending on what others say, maybe I'll try that next time! Looks like the discussion was practically useful after all and likely will help me grow shrooms better.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26818233 - 07/11/20 08:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Such a small amount of water evaporates it really doesn't matter and you use it as soon as it gets to boiling.
During a 60 minute boil in homebrew beer making you might lose 6% volume. That's an hour of boiling.
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: bodhisatta]
#26818251 - 07/11/20 08:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, that’s more like I was thinking... if that’s the case then I don’t know wtf was going on with my wet coir. Can two bricks of coir by the same manufacturer (or really even by different manufacturers), with the same mass, and mixed with the same amount of water be significantly different in terms of field capacity? Is mass of coir not the whole story?
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Failboat
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26818780 - 07/12/20 06:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Did you weigh your coir?
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Failboat]
#26818940 - 07/12/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Coir is always different. The numbers in the tek are a starting point. Sometimes its perfect sometimes wet sometimes dry
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: bodhisatta]
#26819233 - 07/12/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quirkmeister92 said: Did you weigh your coir?
I stated in the OP that I always weigh my coir. Not sure why someone wouldn’t.
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Coir is always different. The numbers in the tek are a starting point. Sometimes its perfect sometimes wet sometimes dry
Any idea what makes two 650 g pieces of coir of the same brand and batch significantly different?
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Goatrider
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26819287 - 07/12/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Perhaps every single brick won't expand exactly to the same amount, even if they weigh the same?
But i don't mind.
Too dry - water Too wet - squeeze
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Sits
Shady Vagrant


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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Goatrider]
#26819741 - 07/12/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Goatrider said: Perhaps every single brick won't expand exactly to the same amount, even if they weigh the same?
But i don't mind.
Too dry - water Too wet - squeeze
But he's in too much of a hurry to squeeze coir! So he starts the entire process over. . .
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CatsLoveHouseMusic
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Sits]
#26819841 - 07/12/20 04:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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If my coir is too wet I put it in a bucket with holes at the bottom and just press the water out. My first time I squeezed every handful, lol.
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Fuddyduddy
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: CatsLoveHouseMusic]
#26819939 - 07/12/20 05:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Reading Bod's tek is just says to use boiling water. It doesn't say how to boil that water or for how long so why did you assume you needed to cover the pot of water while boiling it?
Seems pretty logical that there will be some evaporation in the process as well as variables such as elevation (air pressure), room temperature and humidity you're working in.
Drying coir is also much faster and simpler than pasteurizing a new batch. Fact
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replyom

Registered: 06/19/12
Posts: 344
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: bodhisatta]
#26820022 - 07/12/20 06:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
CatsLoveHouseMusic said: If my coir is too wet I put it in a bucket with holes at the bottom and just press the water out. My first time I squeezed every handful, lol.
Oh nice haha that's a good idea.
Quote:
Fuddyduddy said: Reading Bod's tek is just says to use boiling water. It doesn't say how to boil that water or for how long so why did you assume you needed to cover the pot of water while boiling it?
I didn't assume I needed to cover it - if you read my post I said I usually don't cover it. I just decided to this time because it would boil faster. I didn't expect that a significant amount of water was evaporating between room temperature and boiling, since as soon as it reached a boil I took it off the stove and mixed it with the coir.
Quote:
Fuddyduddy said: Seems pretty logical that there will be some evaporation in the process
Quote:
bodhisatta said: Such a small amount of water evaporates it really doesn't matter and you use it as soon as it gets to boiling.
During a 60 minute boil in homebrew beer making you might lose 6% volume. That's an hour of boiling.
Edited by replyom (07/12/20 09:44 PM)
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Sir Pentinite
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: replyom]
#26820102 - 07/12/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is directly from Bod's bucket tek with emphasis added by me:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
always check field capacity your coir might not be the same as my coir.
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These numbers are what I use but each person will have a different experience. It's a VERY GOOD idea to check field capacity rather than assume the recipe you follow will translate to your house 100% perfectly.
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Remember to check your field capacity. if it's too wet you can add some vermiculite right from the bag, or wring it out as you go. If it's too dry simply add more water(room temperature tap works fine) keep notes so you can hit it dead on next time.
-------------------- "I thought to myself 'Boy, I'm sure glad there's nobody here to see this because this is exactly the sort of thing that gets people riled-up and they assume you're dying and that something has to be done. Where if you're alone, you know, you either come through it or you die, but in any case you avoid the fuss.'" - Terrence McKenna
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Goatrider
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Re: Evaporation introducing variability into substrate prep [Re: Sir Pentinite]
#26820155 - 07/12/20 09:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Most here don`t get the point, what replyom asked for.
He said, he used the same brand and batch, the same amount coir and water, and came to very different results of field capacity.
Quote:
CatsLoveHouseMusic said: If my coir is too wet I put it in a bucket with holes at the bottom and just press the water out. My first time I squeezed every handful, lol.
Of course that`s also my prefered method. If i`d do 8 liters with my hands, i could have pins in that time 
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