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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
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Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing 1
#26815276 - 07/10/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's come to my attention that many people are using grain-based substrates for their pan cyans grows. A grain-base is also called "super spawning" in commercial mushroom growing, but it's seldom used since the cost of the spawn would drive up the cost of the whole process enormously. Spawn rates are typically expressed in volumetric terms, which kind of sucks.
I never use spawn. My grows are always LC for a variety of reasons, including superior yields (for me at least). However, at some point, I prepared these two per-weight recipes and they are close to what one might expect for ordinary spawning (0.5% to .75% grain-to-manure volume ratio) and super spawning (any rate well over that, sometimes even 1 part grain to 2 parts manure/straw by volume).
So, my question is this: who is using ordinary spawning and who is using super spawning for pan cyans? I'd love to hear anyone's experiences. My experiences with super spawning ratios is that they cause dwarfed fruits, but that is not the experiences of many others I've talked to. Pictures are welcome, but I really like BE (biological efficiency) rates to be honest since pictures don't mean a lot to me.
Assumptions:
- 140 ml LC added post-cook
- 140 ml estimated steam loss during cook (offsetting second 140ml injection for second bag)
- WBS balanced 50% water per weight
- Vermiculite density: 4.41oz/L (coarse, measured)
- Vermiculite balanced 65% water per weight
- Manure balanced 65% water per weight
- Manure, vermiculite, and WBS have 0% water initially
Note: parenthetical water contribution computations can be ignored
Quote:
Manure-based Substrate (grain ratio is close to normal spawn) Manure 44 oz (44/X = 0.35 => implies 81.7oz water) WBS 10 oz (10/X = 0.50 => implies 10 oz water) Vermiculite 1.5 L (1.5L * 4.41oz/L = 6.6oz => 6.6/X = .35 => implies 12.26oz water) Water ~100 oz = 104 oz - ~4.5 (for LC in 1 bag since some steaming loss) ~10 pounds total
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Grain-based Substrate (grain ratio is "super spawning" ratio) Manure 44 oz (44/X = .35 => implies 81.7 oz water) WBS 40 oz (40/X = .50 => implies 40.0 oz water) Vermiculite 2 L (2L * 4.41oz/L = 8.82oz => 8.82/X = .35 => implies 16.4 oz water) Water ~133.5 oz = 138 oz - ~4.5 (for LC in 1 bag since some steaming loss) ~14.1 pounds total
Edited by Blue Helix (07/10/20 02:05 PM)
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polaritymind
relaxed attention


Registered: 10/10/16
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Loc: Germany
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: Blue Helix]
#26815356 - 07/10/20 02:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think this is so interesting. I am just now starting to get into growing edibles, and in researching it I read so many times that using grains is neccesary to give the mushroom some energy, and hat for example LC -> dowels or LC-> sawdust would work less well. But now with what you say, I am not so sure, do you know if this is because of the species or was just a misconception. I mean there is energy in LC too of course, especially in the grain water LCs some people do. What recipe to you use? I recently prepared a straight honey water 3% or so LC for shiitake and they havent really gotten larger than coin size, the mycelium balls, after two weeks. Maybe they need oxygen and I need to swirl them around more often?
-------------------- "to affirm life is to also affirm death" -Albert hofmann
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jcm4620
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/19
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: Blue Helix]
#26815474 - 07/10/20 03:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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i guess i would fall into the super spawning method. i am currently using a ratio of 1.2 grain to substrate. in the past i have used a ratio of 1.4 also but was unable to achieve the desired results. personally i never really cared about b/e and kinda still dont for the most part. but i gtta say i am curious here. but the things that are always most important to me is yield, even coverage, large uniform fruits, fast colonization and consolidation times and just the over all beauty of the fruits and the tray its self. like i said i have tried both methods and i have had both good and bad results with both methods. as far as the dwarf fruits go tho again i have had them with both methods. and i do plan on going back and trying a 1.4 ratio again just to see if i can notice a difference now that i have a established method down now. cuz when i was using a 1.4 ratio i was still kinda learning the basics of pans in the first place. so it is very very possible that the poor performance with the 1.4 ratio was completely my fault and not the ratio and the fact i got better results with the 1.2 ratio could have been pure luck🤷🏼 idk but i do intend to try some things out and see what really does work the best for me and my methods and i will gladly share my findings here😃😃👍
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: jcm4620]
#26815522 - 07/10/20 04:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Pretty much all the grows in MC are going to qualify as super spawning.
And shroomery's magic mushroom growers generally consider super spawning to be using a spent substrate as the spawn for a new grow.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: polaritymind]
#26815543 - 07/10/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
polaritymind said: I think this is so interesting. I am just now starting to get into growing edibles, and in researching it I read so many times that using grains is neccesary to give the mushroom some energy, and hat for example LC -> dowels or LC-> sawdust would work less well. But now with what you say, I am not so sure, do you know if this is because of the species or was just a misconception. I mean there is energy in LC too of course, especially in the grain water LCs some people do. What recipe to you use? I recently prepared a straight honey water 3% or so LC for shiitake and they havent really gotten larger than coin size, the mycelium balls, after two weeks. Maybe they need oxygen and I need to swirl them around more often?
Well, this definitely isn't about LC here. I know LC works. I proved it long ago to myself and to everyone here through heavy flushes and high BEs. If you do a search on here or mycotopia you can find my grows and the BE associated with them.
What I'm wondering about here are grain concentrations be that in a traditional spawn->substrate run (where the spawn is grain and used to inoculate the substrate OR be that in an LC->substrate where the entire substrate is sterilized with grains included. Some people are using a lot of grain and others using just traditional amount. We know that in some species like Panellus Stipticus, that grain spells doom. If you try this super spawning stuff with them, you won't get fruits PERIOD. In fact, if you use a lot of gain with a lot of wood lovers, and the results are total disasters. But pan cyans and cubensis are often grown around here, and they seems to often be able to tolerate and even do a lot better with more grains (sometimes). I'm curious about that.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/10/20 05:06 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: jcm4620]
#26815560 - 07/10/20 04:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
jcm4620 said: i guess i would fall into the super spawning method. i am currently using a ratio of 1.2 grain to substrate. in the past i have used a ratio of 1.4 also but was unable to achieve the desired results. personally i never really cared about b/e and kinda still dont for the most part. but i gtta say i am curious here. but the things that are always most important to me is yield, even coverage, large uniform fruits, fast colonization and consolidation times and just the over all beauty of the fruits and the tray its self. like i said i have tried both methods and i have had both good and bad results with both methods. as far as the dwarf fruits go tho again i have had them with both methods. and i do plan on going back and trying a 1.4 ratio again just to see if i can notice a difference now that i have a established method down now. cuz when i was using a 1.4 ratio i was still kinda learning the basics of pans in the first place. so it is very very possible that the poor performance with the 1.4 ratio was completely my fault and not the ratio and the fact i got better results with the 1.2 ratio could have been pure luck🤷🏼 idk but i do intend to try some things out and see what really does work the best for me and my methods and i will gladly share my findings here😃😃👍
BE is a numeric representation of "yield, even coverage, large uniform fruits, fast colonization and consolidation times" so what you said is nonsensical. The only thing that BE doesn't cover is the overall beauty of the fruits. It covers everything else, and the only reason I think people don't give BEs here I guess is simple laziness or maybe not understanding division or the formula.
Biological efficiency is the industry standard for growing mushrooms. The "beauty" of fruits is assumed unless you are using the wrong substrate entirely (such as too many or not enough nutrients). For review, let me give BE formula:
biological efficiency (BE) = the wet weight of fruits / the dry weight of the substrate * 100
If you were trying to grow mushroom for anything besides a hobby, you'd be expected to give BE as proof of your growing skill. All mushroom supplements (or almost all) are aimed at increasing BE. A good example is the famous mushroom Amycel supplements ( https://www.amycel.com/supplements ). I've used them before (they are headquartered out here so it was easy to just drive up and get a 50-pound bag for Spawn Mate II), but they are more aimed toward traditional spawning. So for LC grows they don't work well because they cannot survive pressure cooking. If I were doing spawning, though, I'd buy that shit in a second! And I have no idea in the world why more people on here don't use them; they are cheap as fuck and their grows would be twice as good with them probably! It's amazing what they've done with the science of mushroom growing, but they describe their performance terms of BE increases, of course. What else would they do?
Edited by Blue Helix (07/10/20 04:42 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: bodhisatta]
#26815573 - 07/10/20 04:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: Pretty much all the grows in MC are going to qualify as super spawning.
And shroomery's magic mushroom growers generally consider super spawning to be using a spent substrate as the spawn for a new grow.
Yeah, I agree. Basically that is right. Even in my manure-based formula we have (as a weight percentage):
10+10 / (44+6.6+90) is my weight ratio from grain (i.e. spawn) to the rest of the substrate. That would be 14.2%. Commercial operations never go over 5% per weight for spawn, so yeah, I'm super spawning too.
Edited by Blue Helix (07/10/20 06:17 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: Blue Helix]
#26815585 - 07/10/20 04:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
jcm4620 said: i guess i would fall into the super spawning method. i am currently using a ratio of 1.2 grain to substrate. in the past i have used a ratio of 1.4 also but was unable to achieve the desired results. personally i never really cared about b/e and kinda still dont for the most part. but i gtta say i am curious here. but the things that are always most important to me is yield, even coverage, large uniform fruits, fast colonization and consolidation times and just the over all beauty of the fruits and the tray its self. like i said i have tried both methods and i have had both good and bad results with both methods. as far as the dwarf fruits go tho again i have had them with both methods. and i do plan on going back and trying a 1.4 ratio again just to see if i can notice a difference now that i have a established method down now. cuz when i was using a 1.4 ratio i was still kinda learning the basics of pans in the first place. so it is very very possible that the poor performance with the 1.4 ratio was completely my fault and not the ratio and the fact i got better results with the 1.2 ratio could have been pure luck🤷🏼 idk but i do intend to try some things out and see what really does work the best for me and my methods and i will gladly share my findings here😃😃👍
BE is a numeric representation of "yield, even coverage, large uniform fruits, fast colonization and consolidation times" so what you said is nonsensical. The only thing that BE doesn't cover is the overall beauty of the fruits. It covers everything else, and the only reason I think people don't give BEs here I guess is simple laziness or maybe not understanding division or the formula.
Biological efficiency is the industry standard for growing mushrooms. The "beauty" of fruits is assumed unless you are using the wrong substrate entirely (such as too many or not enough nutrients). For review, let me give BE formula:
biological efficiency (BE) = the wet weight of fruits / the dry weight of the substrate * 100
If you were trying to grow mushroom for anything besides a hobby, you'd be expected to give BE as proof of your growing skill. All mushroom supplements (or almost all) are aimed at increasing BE. A good example is the famous mushroom Amycel supplements ( https://www.amycel.com/supplements ). I've used them before (they are headquartered out here so it was easy to just drive up and get a 50-pound bag for Spawn Mate II), but they are more aimed toward traditional spawning. So for LC grows they don't work well because they cannot survive pressure cooking. If I were doing spawning, though, I'd buy that shit in a second! And I have no idea in the world why more people on here don't use them; they are cheap as fuck and their grows would be twice as good with them probably! It's amazing what they've done with the science of mushroom growing, but they describe their performance terms of BE increases, of course. What else would they do?
One thing I should add to this is that I would like to try Spawn Mate II again. I had this idea recently that I might be able to use it at the tray lay after the substrate is colonized from the bags during the LC process. I don't know why but I never thought of that when I had the stuff then ended up stupidly throwing the whole bag out. I tried to pressure cook the stuff and is fell apart, but if I added it at the tray lay, I might be able to use it. I sure would like to try at least. They are only a 2-hour drive from where I live, so maybe I'll give them a call today in fact!
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 18 days
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: polaritymind]
#26815642 - 07/10/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
polaritymind said: I think this is so interesting. I am just now starting to get into growing edibles, and in researching it I read so many times that using grains is neccesary to give the mushroom some energy, and hat for example LC -> dowels or LC-> sawdust would work less well. But now with what you say, I am not so sure, do you know if this is because of the species or was just a misconception. I mean there is energy in LC too of course, especially in the grain water LCs some people do. What recipe to you use? I recently prepared a straight honey water 3% or so LC for shiitake and they havent really gotten larger than coin size, the mycelium balls, after two weeks. Maybe they need oxygen and I need to swirl them around more often?
Wow, I didn't even answer your questions! That was rude of me. I am sorry.
You say you have only gotten mycelium blobs only got coin-size. I assume you mean the entire mass of mycelium in the LC was only about the size of a coin, right? Well, I've grown Shiitake using LCs just fine.
 
I have yet to have an LC not develop right unless it was contaminated, but I always use a continuous stirring Teflon magnet. That doesn't mean you need one, but I'd recommend you swish the LC around AT LEAST twice per day. Also how much LC are you making? If you are much over a half liter (half a quart-sized jar), you might need to split it up without continuous stirring. The oxygen transport into the LC is only at the surface, so if you get a deep jar of LC and aren't stirring, you'll suffocate it. Otherwise, just keep stirring it during the day. Do it any time you think of it. If you are using a lid (like those I described on here) that can handle liquid touching it, then just shake the jar vigorously. If you are using a lid that passes liquid, then sterilize with the LC a nice marble to help you with the swishing. I hope that helps.
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CHUCK.HNTR
feral urbanite



Registered: 09/30/19
Posts: 2,258
Loc: SF, CA, USA
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: Blue Helix]
#26901324 - 08/26/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I’m getting ready for my second Pan cy grow. I’m planing on going close to 1:2 grain to bulk (h-poo, straw, verm, gypsum mix) Unfortunately the grain is colonizing very slowly as long as everything goes okay I’ll post some results when I have them.
It’s strange this strain moves pretty slow on grain but loves when I go to bulk. Have you come across this with certain Pan cy’s?
-------------------- "What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
   
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CHUCK.HNTR
feral urbanite



Registered: 09/30/19
Posts: 2,258
Loc: SF, CA, USA
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Re: Traditional spawning versus "super spawning" in pan cyans growing [Re: CHUCK.HNTR]
#26901339 - 08/26/20 09:20 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Forgot to mention I’m using cloned myc from my first grow.
-------------------- "What is the practical application of a million universes?" -Alan Watts
   
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