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OfflineVahn421
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The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19
    #26814808 - 07/10/20 10:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We're dealing with essentially Shrodinger's Covid.

One does not know if one needs a mask or not until one finds out if an event is on the political left or right.

Political left wants to riot in the street in the thousands? Mask: optional. Covid isn't really a problem.

Trump rally? Holy shit, stop spreading the covid!

This is the SAME website. Fuck these hypocrites.

I could do this with basically every major media news source with few exceptions. Sad.


Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 10:42 AM)


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OfflineOne of Us
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26814812 - 07/10/20 10:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Most protesters wear masks.

You'd probably get made fun of if you wore a mask at a trump rally.

Big difference


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: One of Us]
    #26814826 - 07/10/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

One of Us said:
Most protesters wear masks.




I wouldn't say most. Half at best. (And even then, even pro-maskers never claimed it stops the spread, only slows it.)

It's not enough for justify such polarized hypocrisy on the media' part.










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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 10:49 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 3
    #26814857 - 07/10/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’ve been to multiple protests and the folks there wear masks more frequently than any store I’ve visited in the same timeframe.

But thanks for the tired ass take of “oh the left wants to protest police brutality as if that’s more important than going to Applebee’s” that’s been spouted hundreds of times.

Quite the intellectual trailblazer.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26814859 - 07/10/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lmao! “It’s not 51% it’s clearly 50%.”

Here’s 4 pictures which is clearly a legitimate sample size for months of global protests.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26814868 - 07/10/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think you're missing a big part of the equation, though.  Wearing a mask when you go to the grocery store is a no-brainer.  Is it worth risking covid to protest the death of someone at the hands of the police?  That's a completely different calculation.

Or maybe you think that grabbing some cold cuts is just as important as stopping the murder of black people by cops?  Perhaps even more important?

Your rhetoric is largely impotent anyway, but if you're going to try to argue some broad generalizations about the "political left," you should at least attempt to be intellectually honest.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814872 - 07/10/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you should at least attempt to be intellectually honest.





This thread has nothing to do with whether or not masks work.

It has everything to do with the blatant hypocrisy on the part of the media.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26814873 - 07/10/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lmao! “It’s not 51% it’s clearly 50%.”




You really have to distract from the topic at hand to even have a chance of knocking me over, don't you?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26814877 - 07/10/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If you’re outside risk of transmission is extremely low. With masks it’s almost nil. There has been no discernible protest related increase in cases. Here in DC we’ve had protests every day, but nearly  everyone wears a mask. New cases are averaging under 50 a day. Compare that to Tulsa, a city half the size which saw ~500 In one day.

Why can’t trump just have an outdoor rally and require masks? It’s just silly that he has relatively safe options but he refuses to take them.

I took this picture at the big march back in early June. Almost total mask compliance.



Stop fucking whining about hypocrisy. It’s not the same thing. Trumps indoor maskless rallies and outdoor masked protests have very little in common.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26814885 - 07/10/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And even then, even pro-maskers never claimed it stops the spread, only slows it.)




It’s becoming abundantly clear that masks are extremely effective at preventing transmission.

It’s likely that less than 3% of infections are acquired in an outdoor setting


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Edited by koods (07/10/20 11:22 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: One of Us]
    #26814887 - 07/10/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ever hear the term, some things are worth dying for?

A political rally is an entertainment venue. The protests and the common mans frustration with a rigged system that refuses to change isn't.

The whole world already knows who trump is,,,, the rallies are a waste of energy, resources and lives/time on many levels.
Even if Tulsi Gabbard or Andrew yang was holding rallies I would chastise here level of common sense. As if the media would give them any air time anyways. :lmafo:

-edit- not conman, common man. :laugh2:


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Edited by R.I.P.Zappa (07/13/20 10:42 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814888 - 07/10/20 11:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

you should at least attempt to be intellectually honest.





This thread has nothing to do with whether or not masks work.

It has everything to do with the blatant hypocrisy on the part of the media.



The media?  You haven't in any way supported an argument that the media is hypocritical, and the title of this thread has literally nothing to do with the media.  If you want to show that the media is hypocritical, you have to establish:

1. The media makes statements against a particular practice or conduct, AND
2. The media engages in that same practice or conduct.

That's hypocrisy.  It appears the conduct you're referring to is the refusal to wear a mask.  You haven't established that the media refuses to wear masks.

Maybe you were actually trying to argue inconsistency in the media...or perhaps bias.  If so, you should have chosen those words instead of "hypocrisy."


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26814890 - 07/10/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stop fucking whining about hypocrisy. It’s not the same thing. Trumps indoor maskless rallies and outdoor masked protests have very little in common.




You're right, it's not the same thing. The protesting is far worse.

I don't care how many people have worn masks. There have been more protesters in the streets that have not worn masks than there have been people without masks at a Trump rally.

This is like, 1st grade level math. We call it counting.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 11:17 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26814892 - 07/10/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

This is like, 1st grade level math.



At least you admit it.  Protip:  If you want to debate intelligently, you should move past first grade level techniques.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814896 - 07/10/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

you should at least attempt to be intellectually honest.





This thread has nothing to do with whether or not masks work.

It has everything to do with the blatant hypocrisy on the part of the media.



The media?  You haven't in any way supported an argument that the media is hypocritical, and the title of this thread has literally nothing to do with the media.  If you want to show that the media is hypocritical, you have to establish:

1. The media makes statements against a particular practice or conduct, AND
2. The media engages in that same practice or conduct.

That's hypocrisy.  It appears the conduct you're referring to is the refusal to wear a mask.  You haven't established that the media refuses to wear masks.

Maybe you were actually trying to argue inconsistency in the media...or perhaps bias.  If so, you should have chosen those words instead of "hypocrisy."




I provided two links in my OP to two different news articles from the same website. Did you miss them?

I also said I could provide many more. Would you like another TEN for comparison?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26814897 - 07/10/20 11:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:

This is like, 1st grade level math.



At least you admit it.  Protip:  If you want to debate intelligently, you should move past first grade level techniques.




Good job distracting from a rational point you cant contest to make it about me. Typical.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814902 - 07/10/20 11:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:


I provided two links in my OP to two different news articles from the same website. Did you miss them?

I also said I could provide many more. Would you like another TEN for comparison?



Neither of those links support your theory of hypocrisy.  Maybe you should look the word up.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814905 - 07/10/20 11:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:


I provided two links in my OP to two different news articles from the same website. Did you miss them?

I also said I could provide many more. Would you like another TEN for comparison?



Neither of those links support your theory of hypocrisy.  Maybe you should look the word up.




hy·poc·ri·sy
/həˈpäkrəsē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.


Gosh, you mean like caring when people don't wear masks at a trump rally and then not caring when they're protesting BLM?

Fuck man, what dictionary did YOU look up the word out of?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814906 - 07/10/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:

This is like, 1st grade level math.



At least you admit it.  Protip:  If you want to debate intelligently, you should move past first grade level techniques.




Good job distracting from a rational point you cant contest to make it about me. Typical.



If you're going to make fallacious arguments, expect to have them called out:shrug:


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814912 - 07/10/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:


I provided two links in my OP to two different news articles from the same website. Did you miss them?

I also said I could provide many more. Would you like another TEN for comparison?



Neither of those links support your theory of hypocrisy.  Maybe you should look the word up.




hy·poc·ri·sy
/həˈpäkrəsē/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.


Gosh, you mean like caring when people don't wear masks at a trump rally and then not caring when they're protesting BLM?

Fuck man, what dictionary did YOU look up the word out of?



So, where is your link to the media not conforming to the practice of wearing masks?


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Offlinekoods
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814915 - 07/10/20 11:24 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Stop fucking whining about hypocrisy. It’s not the same thing. Trumps indoor maskless rallies and outdoor masked protests have very little in common.




You're right, it's not the same thing. The protesting is far worse.

I don't care how many people have worn masks. There have been more protesters in the streets that have not worn masks than there have been people without masks at a Trump rally.

This is like, 1st grade level math. We call it counting.



Well that’s because nobody wants to go to a trump rally.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814917 - 07/10/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:

This is like, 1st grade level math.



At least you admit it.  Protip:  If you want to debate intelligently, you should move past first grade level techniques.




Good job distracting from a rational point you cant contest to make it about me. Typical.



If you're going to make fallacious arguments, expect to have them called out:shrug:




You've done no such thing.

I demonstrated that if you count heads 1 for 1, there have been more people on the streets without masks at protests than at trump rallies, exponentially so.

Your response to this was to ignore it and sweep it under the rug.

You haven't called me out for dick shit.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 11:26 AM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26814920 - 07/10/20 11:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Well that’s because nobody wants to go to a trump rally.




Except half of our nation.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26814923 - 07/10/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If half the nation wanted to go, why couldn't he fill the venue in Tulsa?  P!nk had no problem doing it, and she charged admission.  Trump couldn't even come close to filling it with no admission charge.  He literally couldn't give away all of those empty seats.



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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814926 - 07/10/20 11:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
If half the nation wanted to go, why couldn't he fill the venue in Tulsa?  P!nk had no problem doing it, and she charged admission.  Trump couldn't even come close to filling it with no admission charge.





Because people do take covid seriously. It broke national records for viewership.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814928 - 07/10/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So, going to a trump rally is less important to the people than going to a BLM protest:shrug:

Even by your 1st grade level math standard, that should be obvious.  We call it counting.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814929 - 07/10/20 11:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Who would want to spend any time around diseased trump supporters anyways?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26814934 - 07/10/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
diseased trump supporters



This is redundant.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814935 - 07/10/20 11:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
If half the nation wanted to go, why couldn't he fill the venue in Tulsa?  P!nk had no problem doing it, and she charged admission.  Trump couldn't even come close to filling it with no admission charge.





Because people do take covid seriously. It broke national records for viewership.




Did you get that info from trump -the man who said two days before Tulsa there’s never been an empty seat at his rallies.


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Edited by koods (07/10/20 11:35 AM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26814940 - 07/10/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

So, going to a trump rally is less important to the people than going to a BLM protest:shrug:




When did *important* come into this equation? That's all subjective and not for me or you to decide.

My OP is about double standards. Anyone not calling out protesters for spreading covid 19 needs to shut the fuck up about anyone else that has their own priorities of "importance" and doesn't wear a mask during THEIR activities, either.

Period.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26814941 - 07/10/20 11:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I wonder what the viewership was for coverage of BLM protests...


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814944 - 07/10/20 11:36 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Anyone not calling out protesters for spreading covid 19 needs to shut the fuck up




Why are right wingers always so quick to silence opposing viewpoints? This "cancel culture" is very destructive to our democracy.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods] * 1
    #26814947 - 07/10/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
If half the nation wanted to go, why couldn't he fill the venue in Tulsa?  P!nk had no problem doing it, and she charged admission.  Trump couldn't even come close to filling it with no admission charge.





Because people do take covid seriously. It broke national records for viewership.




Did you get that info from trump -the man who said two days before Tulsa there’s never been an empty seat at his rallies.





https://thehill.com/homenews/media/503908-trump-rally-delivers-saturday-record-77-million-viewers-on-fox-news

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2020/06/22/12-million-viewers-watch-cable-news-coverage-of-trumps-tulsa-rally/#23bd4e41fe23

https://deadline.com/2020/06/donald-trump-tulsa-rally-ratings-fox-news-1202966519/

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/president-trump-scores-fox-news-viewers-record-for-tulsa-rally/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Trump_Tulsa_rally


[personal attack removed] - Enlil


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Edited by Enlil (07/10/20 11:41 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814949 - 07/10/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So, going to a trump rally is less important to the people than going to a BLM protest:shrug:




When did *important* come into this equation? That's all subjective and not for me or you to decide.

My OP is about double standards. Anyone not calling out protesters for spreading covid 19 needs to shut the fuck up about anyone else that has their own priorities of "importance" and doesn't wear a mask during THEIR activities, either.

Period.




But protesters haven’t spread covid in any measurable way. We’ve known for months that outdoor activities are pretty safe. That’s why you see a lot of states allow restaurants to offer outdoor dining but not indoors.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26814951 - 07/10/20 11:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Anyone not calling out protesters for spreading covid 19 needs to shut the fuck up




Why are right wingers always so quick to silence opposing viewpoints? This "cancel culture" is very destructive to our democracy.




I'm a centrist. Was on the left until 2015. The dems have gone off the rails.

I don't believe in any form of censorship, but I can get louder than anyone else when I see hypocrisy.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26814954 - 07/10/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So, going to a trump rally is less important to the people than going to a BLM protest:shrug:




When did *important* come into this equation? That's all subjective and not for me or you to decide.

My OP is about double standards. Anyone not calling out protesters for spreading covid 19 needs to shut the fuck up about anyone else that has their own priorities of "importance" and doesn't wear a mask during THEIR activities, either.

Period.




But protesters haven’t spread covid in any measurable way.




What an absurd statement. All you have to do is dig to debunk this.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814956 - 07/10/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
If half the nation wanted to go, why couldn't he fill the venue in Tulsa?  P!nk had no problem doing it, and she charged admission.  Trump couldn't even come close to filling it with no admission charge.





Because people do take covid seriously. It broke national records for viewership.




Did you get that info from trump -the man who said two days before Tulsa there’s never been an empty seat at his rallies.





https://thehill.com/homenews/media/503908-trump-rally-delivers-saturday-record-77-million-viewers-on-fox-news

https://www.forbes.com/sites/markjoyella/2020/06/22/12-million-viewers-watch-cable-news-coverage-of-trumps-tulsa-rally/#23bd4e41fe23

https://deadline.com/2020/06/donald-trump-tulsa-rally-ratings-fox-news-1202966519/

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/president-trump-scores-fox-news-viewers-record-for-tulsa-rally/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Trump_Tulsa_rally


I can't tell if you're a troll or a fool.





Those aren’t national records. He broke a record on Fox for a Saturday night.

A lot of people tuned in to watch the train wreck as well


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Edited by koods (07/10/20 11:45 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814961 - 07/10/20 11:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

So, going to a trump rally is less important to the people than going to a BLM protest:shrug:




When did *important* come into this equation? That's all subjective and not for me or you to decide.

My OP is about double standards. Anyone not calling out protesters for spreading covid 19 needs to shut the fuck up about anyone else that has their own priorities of "importance" and doesn't wear a mask during THEIR activities, either.

Period.




But protesters haven’t spread covid in any measurable way.




What an absurd statement. All you have to do is dig to debunk this.




Wrong. You already posted an article saying protests didnt cause a spike in cases.


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Edited by koods (07/10/20 11:44 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814963 - 07/10/20 11:42 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
but I can get louder than anyone else when I see hypocrisy.



You haven't shown any hypocrisy.  You've linked to stories with different viewpoints about different gatherings.  That's not hypocrisy.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814979 - 07/10/20 11:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
but I can get louder than anyone else when I see hypocrisy.



You haven't shown any hypocrisy.  You've linked to stories with different viewpoints about different gatherings.  That's not hypocrisy.




I linked to two articles from the same news website.

And I could do it with 10 other news websites.

Dude... aren't you a lawyer? What the hell, man?


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 11:51 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814983 - 07/10/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, you did.  We're all proud of you.  That still isn't hypocrisy.  Go back to the definition you quoted.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26814987 - 07/10/20 11:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Yes, you did.  We're all proud of you.  That still isn't hypocrisy.  Go back to the definition you quoted.




It's absolutely hypocrisy.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814991 - 07/10/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lawyers strive to use words properly. Having contradictory opinions isn’t hypocrisy


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26814995 - 07/10/20 11:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Yes, you did.  We're all proud of you.  That still isn't hypocrisy.  Go back to the definition you quoted.




It's absolutely hypocrisy.



I'm going to try this one more time.  Hypocrisy is when someone does something that they condemn in other people.  Unless you can prove that the media doesn't wear masks while condemning others for not wearing masks, it's not hypocrisy.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815010 - 07/10/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Well that’s because nobody wants to go to a trump rally.




Except half of our nation.




Not even half of the voting population wanted to go to a Trump rally, never mind half of our Nation's population.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26815011 - 07/10/20 12:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Yes, you did.  We're all proud of you.  That still isn't hypocrisy.  Go back to the definition you quoted.




It's absolutely hypocrisy.



I'm going to try this one more time.  Hypocrisy is when someone does something that they condemn in other people.  Unless you can prove that the media doesn't wear masks while condemning others for not wearing masks, it's not hypocrisy.




Having a moral or philosophical position and then not holding someone, whether it's yourself or anyone else to the same standards across the board is hypocrisy.

Unless you have a better word for it. And either way, this is a red herring to even be discussing semantics.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 12:04 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815014 - 07/10/20 12:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Actually, I'm super curious what vocabulary word you think ought to be used now for these glaring double standards, if not the word "hypocrite."


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 12:05 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815016 - 07/10/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That’s a double standard 🤷‍♂️


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815020 - 07/10/20 12:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You're wrong on both counts.  If you want to discuss media inconsistency, that's fine, but that isn't a left/right issue.  That's a human issue.  Humans are inconsistent.  The media is made up of humans.  There's always going to be inconsistencies within a given human.  Take any group of humans, like a media organization, and it would be beyond foolish to ever expect a single opinion from everyone in that organization.

You linked two articles by two different people about two different stories, and you are calling them inconsistent.  Why would you ever expect them to be otherwise?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815025 - 07/10/20 12:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Why would you ever expect them to be otherwise?




Because honest journalism is supposed to be.

I'll say it for the third time. I could link ten more. Every media outlet is doing this. It's all politically biased.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815028 - 07/10/20 12:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You think that everyone should have the same "correct" opinion about everything?  In what fantasy world would that ever happen?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26815035 - 07/10/20 12:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
You think that everyone should have the same "correct" opinion about everything?  In what fantasy world would that ever happen?




Your organization cannot say on one hand that Trump rallies helped spread covid and then on the other say protesters (MILLIONS who have not worn masks) do not.

It is not only intellectually dishonest but shows a major lack of integrity.

There is a process for submitting articles that involves a review of said articles before they are posted. (Most of the time.)

I MIGHT be able to write it off as human error if EVERY MAJOR MEDIA OUTLET wasn't doing the same thing.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815045 - 07/10/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I would have argued ten years ago that the media's bias wasn't a left/right issue, but in 2020 their bias for the left is so transparent. (Aside from Fox, who sadly reports more accurately now than the rest. I never fuckin' though I'd see that day in my life... but here we are. I used to hate Fox...)


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 12:20 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815064 - 07/10/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I would have argued ten years ago that the media's bias wasn't a left/right issue, but in 2020 their bias for the left is so transparent. (Aside from Fox, who sadly reports more accurately now than the rest. I never fuckin' though I'd see that day in my life... but here we are. I used to hate Fox...)




I’d say you’ve chosen a product you agree with and are here to tell us about it.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: christopera]
    #26815067 - 07/10/20 12:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I would have argued ten years ago that the media's bias wasn't a left/right issue, but in 2020 their bias for the left is so transparent. (Aside from Fox, who sadly reports more accurately now than the rest. I never fuckin' though I'd see that day in my life... but here we are. I used to hate Fox...)




I’d say you’ve chosen a product you agree with and are here to tell us about it.




And I say just watch where the political left takes the party in the next 10 years. You can start by watching Seattle now that they're about to cut the police budget by 50%


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815070 - 07/10/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
You think that everyone should have the same "correct" opinion about everything?  In what fantasy world would that ever happen?




Your organization cannot say on one hand that Trump rallies helped spread covid and then on the other say protesters (MILLIONS who have not worn masks) do not.

It is not only intellectually dishonest but shows a major lack of integrity.

There is a process for submitting articles that involves a review of said articles before they are posted. (Most of the time.)

I MIGHT be able to write it off as human error if EVERY MAJOR MEDIA OUTLET wasn't doing the same thing.



The very idea that an organization has an opinion and that everyone within that organization must conform his/her opinion to that organizational opinion is antithetical to the fundamental freedoms of our society.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815072 - 07/10/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You agree with Fox News and so consume it. The people of Seattle disagree with the product that the police have provided, so they’ve stopped consuming it. You guys aren’t that different.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: christopera]
    #26815079 - 07/10/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
You agree with Fox News and so consume it.




Fox is hit and miss, it's just better than the rest.

Quote:

The people of Seattle disagree with the product that the police have provided, so they’ve stopped consuming it.You guys aren’t that different.




HA!

The *results* of one's "belief systems" are vastly different. Look around at the different things people manifest with their worldviews.

Seattle is now destined to be the next Detroit.

Just gonna slip this in here.



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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815086 - 07/10/20 12:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Your organization cannot say on one hand that Trump rallies helped spread covid and then on the other say protesters (MILLIONS who have not worn masks) do not.



Omg what do you not understand? Outdoors and indoors are not the same thing at all. Protesting outside is low risk.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815092 - 07/10/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Terence McKenna:burke:


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26815097 - 07/10/20 12:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Your organization cannot say on one hand that Trump rallies helped spread covid and then on the other say protesters (MILLIONS who have not worn masks) do not.



Omg what do you not understand? Outdoors and indoors are not the same thing at all. Protesting outside is low risk.




Basic math simply based on the exponentially larger number of protesters relative to how many people have gathered at live Trump rallies woulds still disagree with you.

Advanced math would point out that a Trump rally is still in a huge dome and that it is either just as good as an outdoor rally or still exponentially better than a small building, like a restaurant, would be.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815107 - 07/10/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I would have argued ten years ago that the media's bias wasn't a left/right issue, but in 2020 their bias for the left is so transparent. (Aside from Fox, who sadly reports more accurately now than the rest. I never fuckin' though I'd see that day in my life... but here we are. I used to hate Fox...)




I’d say you’ve chosen a product you agree with and are here to tell us about it.




And I say just watch where the political left takes the party in the next 10 years. You can start by watching Seattle now that they're about to cut the police budget by 50%



Those darn liberals and their spending cuts. 🤦‍♂️


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26815113 - 07/10/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I would have argued ten years ago that the media's bias wasn't a left/right issue, but in 2020 their bias for the left is so transparent. (Aside from Fox, who sadly reports more accurately now than the rest. I never fuckin' though I'd see that day in my life... but here we are. I used to hate Fox...)




I’d say you’ve chosen a product you agree with and are here to tell us about it.




And I say just watch where the political left takes the party in the next 10 years. You can start by watching Seattle now that they're about to cut the police budget by 50%



Those darn liberals and their spending cuts. 🤦‍♂️




I am so reviving this thread after Seattle gets trashed to pieces.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815115 - 07/10/20 12:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Seattle has been a shithole for decades.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815141 - 07/10/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Seattle has been a shithole for decades.




Give a little while longer. The future is going to make its current state appear like a paradise.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815153 - 07/10/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lol, that could be said of virtually every first world nation on this planet.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815181 - 07/10/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I have this feeling leftists will blame anyone but themselves when crime skyrockets in the city and businesses decide to move elsewhere.


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OfflineMr.Christmas
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815195 - 07/10/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

For all my American amigos, wait until unemployment comes to an end (which should be soon). Everyone's going to start losing their minds.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815204 - 07/10/20 01:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Lmao! “It’s not 51% it’s clearly 50%.”




You really have to distract from the topic at hand to even have a chance of knocking me over, don't you?




You mean like whining about protestors wearing masks to distract from police brutality?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815208 - 07/10/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Your organization cannot say on one hand that Trump rallies helped spread covid and then on the other say protesters (MILLIONS who have not worn masks) do not.

It is not only intellectually dishonest but shows a major lack of integrity.

There is a process for submitting articles that involves a review of said articles before they are posted. (Most of the time.)

I MIGHT be able to write it off as human error if EVERY MAJOR MEDIA OUTLET wasn't doing the same thing.



Peer reviewed articles like this? Black Lives Matter Protests, Social Distancing, and COVID-19

Quote:

This study uses newly collected data on protests in 315 of the largest U.S. cities to estimate the impacts of mass protests on social distancing and COVID-19 case growth. [...] [W]e find no evidence that urban protests reignited COVID-19 case growth during the more than three weeks following protest onset. We conclude that predictions of broad negative public health consequences of Black Lives Matter protests were far too narrowly conceived.





A simple look at a map of the national covid-19 case increases shows no correlation with the recent protests. DC and New York are down - Idaho and Florida are up. There's a much greater correlation between States reopening and an increase in covid cases.





Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Seattle is now destined to be the next Detroit.



I'm confused - Detroit has police but you're using the city as a caution towards the dangers of police abolition. It rather seems you've just made an argument against the effectiveness of police.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815213 - 07/10/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Where are they gonna move? The red state economic backwaters?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: koods]
    #26815291 - 07/10/20 02:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Detroit is Detroit for many other factors.

Go ahead and cut the police budget by 50% there, too. See what happens.


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OfflineMr.Christmas
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815313 - 07/10/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Detroit is Detroit for many other factors.

Go ahead and cut the police budget by 50% there, too. See what happens.




They'd be left with cops that joined the force for something they believed in.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Mr.Christmas]
    #26815314 - 07/10/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

...and cops performing only those functions that require a man with a gun to show up.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Mr.Christmas]
    #26815320 - 07/10/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sucio said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Detroit is Detroit for many other factors.

Go ahead and cut the police budget by 50% there, too. See what happens.




They'd be left with cops that joined the force for something they believed in.




lol


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Mr.Christmas]
    #26815691 - 07/10/20 05:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sucio said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Detroit is Detroit for many other factors.

Go ahead and cut the police budget by 50% there, too. See what happens.




They'd be left with cops that joined the force for something they believed in.




What actually happens in the real world outside of this hyperbolic fantasy land is that morale for police stations deceases and a lot of experienced members retire.

I wouldn't be surprised if the other half of Seattle's Police department all quit due to how bad they are being treated by their own civilians they've been sword to protect.

End the drug war, but we need cops for pretty much everything else.

Poor people suffer the most when you take the cops away, you know.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 05:43 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815697 - 07/10/20 05:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Police are scum anyway. Drain the swamp and get humans to replace them.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815705 - 07/10/20 05:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Police have no legal obligation to protect citizens.

And why the hell would they? If police get involved in violent crimes, they might become victims as well. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six, gotta survive the shift, all that.

If I was a cop, I wouldn't stop a dude from stabbing someone else. I'd just empty all my magazines in their general direction until everything went away and I could go on paid leave.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815800 - 07/10/20 06:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Lmao! “It’s not 51% it’s clearly 50%.”




You really have to distract from the topic at hand to even have a chance of knocking me over, don't you?




Dude, a hamster could knock you over.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Kryptos]
    #26815820 - 07/10/20 06:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Police have no legal obligation to protect citizens.

And why the hell would they? If police get involved in violent crimes, they might become victims as well. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six, gotta survive the shift, all that.

If I was a cop, I wouldn't stop a dude from stabbing someone else. I'd just empty all my magazines in their general direction until everything went away and I could go on paid leave.




Cops won't get fired if they don't jump in front of someone to take a bullet for them?

No shit.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815823 - 07/10/20 06:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Police are scum anyway. Drain the swamp and get humans to replace them.




Are you saying police officers aren't human?

And that absurd statement aside, they tried that in CHAZ. It didn't go so well...

EDIT: Ironically, your statement is super pro 2nd amendment, pro open carry, pro libertarian.



Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 06:53 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815836 - 07/10/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815858 - 07/10/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
Police have no legal obligation to protect citizens.

And why the hell would they? If police get involved in violent crimes, they might become victims as well. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six, gotta survive the shift, all that.

If I was a cop, I wouldn't stop a dude from stabbing someone else. I'd just empty all my magazines in their general direction until everything went away and I could go on paid leave.




Cops won't get fired if they don't jump in front of someone to take a bullet for them?

No shit.




Bodyguards do, soldiers do, everybody who's job is to "protect and serve" does...except police.

Why should my tax money go to funding some asshole who won't even protect me? I'd rather defund the police and hire private security. Which, technically, I do. My neighborhood has private security, as does my workplace.

Police are a waste of resources. Fuck the police.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #26815859 - 07/10/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

From the first paragraph:

"A once-crime-riddled New Jersey city disbanded its police department and formed a new one in 2013 — and this is what happened."


One of the last lines: "He added that a police presence is here to stay in Camden — because there is still crime."


Reform is fine if you do it right.

Those last 3 words being the key. The energy swirling around most major cities right now... it's not going to go down like this.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26815864 - 07/10/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'd rather defund the police and hire private security.




Your rich "privilege" is showing.

Economics don't allow for everyone to have expensive "bodyguards"

Again, this is basic math. What you pay for police departments is pennies on the dollar compared to what a bodyguard costs.

If you want better security, yup... you got to pay more money.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815875 - 07/10/20 07:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Step one is getting rid of the fuckers. Step two is hiring normal people, not fuckers.

Let's start with step one. ACAB, and it's time to throw the entire barrel of apples into the trash. And make them ineligible to be rehired as cops. They want a job? They can join a private security company, where they either jump in front of a bullet or lose their job.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

I'd rather defund the police and hire private security.




Your rich "privilege" is showing.

Economics don't allow for everyone to have expensive "bodyguards"

Again, this is basic math. What you pay for police departments is pennies on the dollar compared to what a bodyguard costs.

If you want better security, yup... you got to pay more money.




No shit my middle class privilege is showing. And yes, middle class. I'm only in the top 15% of Americans, which puts me square in middle class when it comes to quality of life. Keep in mind that the bottom half of Americans have literally negative money.

Point is, police are a waste of money, because they don't do shit. Pennies on the dollar, sure, but that assumes, well, there's some benefit to those pennies. As far as I can tell, police are, quite literally, negative benefit. Americans pay them to cause problems for Americans. It's like buying a bullet for the express purpose of shooting yourself in the foot with it, but more expensive.

And, as far as percentage of income, I spend less on security than the percentage of my taxes that go towards local police. I live in one of those places where the cop cars scream "Please send your children to school with a box of pencils, because the city can't afford to buy pencils".

Edit: I guess at least last time I got pulled over, the cop was saying "yes sir" and "no sir" to me, and I didn't get a ticket.


Edited by Kryptos (07/10/20 07:27 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815882 - 07/10/20 07:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Police are scum anyway. Drain the swamp and get humans to replace them.




Are you saying police officers aren't human?

And that absurd statement aside, they tried that in CHAZ. It didn't go so well...

EDIT: Ironically, your statement is super pro 2nd amendment, pro open carry, pro libertarian.





How is that ironic? When have i not been pro 2nd amendment?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815887 - 07/10/20 07:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'd say its ironic because a strong 2nd amendment and carry culture is the best argument *for* police I can think of, but I don;t think that's what they're going for.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Kryptos]
    #26815888 - 07/10/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Everyone should be allowed to carry except on duty cops.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Kryptos]
    #26815892 - 07/10/20 07:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think most people realize just how dangerous the world becomes without law enforcement.

I've seen police brutality and I'm not anti-police reform and I DEFINITELY want the drug war to end. (Obviously I'm posting here.) But the rest of it? We need it so much more than people realize.

Drug lords and warlords just wind up ruling any area where law enforcement withdraws.

Negotiation and cooperation doesn't rule the day when you take away law enforcement. Raw power does.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26815898 - 07/10/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The left aren't Democrats anymore. They're something new and they're evil.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815899 - 07/10/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Why would drug lords want to harm their customers?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Everyone should be allowed to carry except on duty cops.




literally the only time I've ever been thankful for a police presence in my life was the time some asshole 2nd amendment pro carry idiot decided to shoot up the school at which I had taken a teaching job for some extra cash, since the company I was working for at the time was renting lab space from the same school.

T'was a fun time, couple people got killed. None of my students, though, so I guess all's well that ends well.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Kryptos]
    #26815904 - 07/10/20 07:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Why would drug lords want to harm their customers?




Not everyone is a customer. And even then, some are disposable.

I am truly sorry you had to experience a shooting.

I find it ironic, but I am actually glad that the left has changed their position on 2nd amendment as fast as they have. Prior to recently they were saying on one hand "fuck the police" and on the other they were saying "only the government should have guns." At least they threw that one out the window.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 07:42 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815908 - 07/10/20 07:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lol, you think I'm "the left?"


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815916 - 07/10/20 07:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You have more leftist views than I have, but I'm not pinning you, nor was my comment about the 2nd amendment directed at you. It's a general observation.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815924 - 07/10/20 07:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I have more leftist, rightist, and centrist views than you.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26815930 - 07/10/20 07:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well that's not exactly a productive statement, that's just you whipping out your dick. Not sure why, either.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815936 - 07/10/20 07:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You chose to label my views, as if you have the first clue what they are.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26815948 - 07/10/20 07:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's an observation relative to other people I know who hold the same positions. Again, I'm not pigeon holing you.

If anyone has been accused *numerous* of times of having positions or ideas I have not espoused, it's been me.

And you still whipped out your dick for no good reason.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26815958 - 07/10/20 08:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

My dick couldn't whip on my best day. At best, it could pop out.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26816137 - 07/10/20 09:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I’ve been to multiple protests and the folks there wear masks more frequently than any store I’ve visited in the same timeframe.

But thanks for the tired ass take of “oh the left wants to protest police brutality as if that’s more important than going to Applebee’s” that’s been spouted hundreds of times.

Quite the intellectual trailblazer.



in the pics where there are 100+ protesters a super majority are wearing masks. In hisnpics where there are maybe 50 people masks are few and far between. His own pictures prove him wrong.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26816147 - 07/10/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Stop fucking whining about hypocrisy. It’s not the same thing. Trumps indoor maskless rallies and outdoor masked protests have very little in common.




You're right, it's not the same thing. The protesting is far worse.

I don't care how many people have worn masks. There have been more protesters in the streets that have not worn masks than there have been people without masks at a Trump rally.

This is like, 1st grade level math. We call it counting.



I'm not sure you know how to count then. Your own pictures show a pretty high mask to no mask ratio.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26816418 - 07/11/20 02:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

you should at least attempt to be intellectually honest.





This thread has nothing to do with whether or not masks work.

It has everything to do with the blatant hypocrisy on the part of the media.



The media?  You haven't in any way supported an argument that the media is hypocritical, and the title of this thread has literally nothing to do with the media.  If you want to show that the media is hypocritical, you have to establish:

1. The media makes statements against a particular practice or conduct, AND
2. The media engages in that same practice or conduct.

That's hypocrisy.  It appears the conduct you're referring to is the refusal to wear a mask.  You haven't established that the media refuses to wear masks.

Maybe you were actually trying to argue inconsistency in the media...or perhaps bias.  If so, you should have chosen those words instead of "hypocrisy."




Exactly. "the title of this thread has literally nothing to do with the media"

The OP thinks that whenever it suits his convenience, he can equate "the left", "the protesters" and "the media".


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Brian Jones]
    #26819898 - 07/12/20 05:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The OP thinks that whenever it suits his convenience, he can equate "the left", "the protesters" and "the media".





LMAO.

And scarlet and crimson aren't red.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26820972 - 07/13/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Just keep leaning into it buddy you’re doing great


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26821741 - 07/13/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oh I absolutely am. And your contributions truly rival that of, say, a potato.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26821912 - 07/13/20 09:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So you protest "the left", therefore you are a protester, therefore you are the left, therefore you are the media and being completely hypocritical about whatever point you're trying to make

And that's just straight logic


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26821958 - 07/13/20 09:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
So you protest "the left", therefore you are a protester, therefore you are the left, therefore you are the media and being completely hypocritical about whatever point you're trying to make

And that's just straight logic




Before I reply to this, I HAVE to know.

Are you trolling me, or are you being serious?

Either way, we have a problem.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26821964 - 07/13/20 09:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Why? Do you wish to protest the point?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26821976 - 07/13/20 09:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26822019 - 07/13/20 10:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Why? Do you wish to protest the point?




I had one reason, but now I have two. I'll share the second one with you now. I want to know if you're capable of giving me a straight answer.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26826107 - 07/15/20 11:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

being a leftist means being a hypocrite.  The words are almost interchangeable.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: meltdowner]
    #26826134 - 07/15/20 11:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
being a leftist means being a hypocrite.  The words are almost interchangeable.




Eh, I was on the left until 2015. I'd say it's more that the media cherry picks their narrative in the same way Christians cherry pick the Bible. I have sympathy, having come from that world. It's more ignorance that it is malicious intent... usually.

It's all bullshit when you get the full story, though.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26826204 - 07/16/20 01:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Democrats are officially the party of war:

DEMOCRATS Prevent Trump Withdrawing Troops From Afghanistan!


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26826210 - 07/16/20 01:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Democrats are officially the party of war:

DEMOCRATS Prevent Trump Withdrawing Troops From Afghanistan!





Media: Trump refuses to withdraw troops from Afghanistan.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26826227 - 07/16/20 02:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I'm a centrist. Was on the left until 2015.




What left do you speak of? There has never been a viable candidate resembling anything on the left side of the political spectrum.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
The dems have gone off the rails.





What rails dude? Both ruling parties are corporate as fuck. The American political system has been broken from day 1.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I don't believe in any form of censorship, but I can get louder than anyone else when I see hypocrisy.




"The Media" isn't a monolith. I'm sure there is a bunch of white guys bitching about BLM protestors spreading Covid on AM radio. The facts remain that indoor group gatherings are the highest risk.


Edited by drinkkykeon (07/16/20 02:07 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: drinkkykeon]
    #26826239 - 07/16/20 02:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What left do you speak of? There isn't a viable candidate resembling anything resembling on the left side of the political spectrum.




I understand I'm using general terms, but you're going to have to elaborate on your point to give me more context.

Quote:

What rails dude? Both ruling parties are corporate as fuck. The American political system has been broken from day 1.




Yes, but their FOLLOWERS are vastly different right now.

Quote:

"The Media" isn't a monolith.




I'm inclined to disagree. George Carlin and Bill Hicks would too, and they're my spirit animals.

Quote:

I'm sure there is a bunch of white guys bitching about BLM protestors spreading Covid on AM radio.




On smaller networks, sure. But when you turn on your TV, you're not gonna get those channels without paying for the biggest package on Comcast.

Quote:

The facts remain that indoor group gatherings are the highest risk.




Sure, but that doesn't negate all the damage that BLM rioters have done to spread covid like the hypocrites they are.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/16/20 02:11 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26827964 - 07/16/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Putting people you never met, spome with or interacted with in any way, into a bucket then stating theyre all scum is the same logic as saying all blacks are ghetto.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26827966 - 07/16/20 10:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

when you hear in the newsnthat so-and-so is doing something bad, its almost always the one making the accusation that are doing that exact thing.  Trump is racist = I am racist.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: meltdowner]
    #26828025 - 07/17/20 12:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
Putting people you never met, spome with or interacted with in any way, into a bucket then stating theyre all scum is the same logic as saying all blacks are ghetto.



Depends on the bucket.  If it's a bucket of their choosing, that choice is fair game for judgment.  Last I checked, which was admittedly years ago, no one was being drafted to the police force.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828056 - 07/17/20 12:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

meltdowner said:
Putting people you never met, spome with or interacted with in any way, into a bucket then stating theyre all scum is the same logic as saying all blacks are ghetto.



Depends on the bucket.  If it's a bucket of their choosing, that choice is fair game for judgment.  Last I checked, which was admittedly years ago, no one was being drafted to the police force.





No one is being drafted into any political affiliation either. That literally makes every one of us game by your stream of logic. (I'm cool with it.)

I personally think ALL people are worthy of judgment or NO people are. I personally lean toward "all" but if you open that can of worms, you better be ready to take it when people judge you, too.


Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 12:57 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828063 - 07/17/20 01:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Everyone judges everyone.  That's not my point.  There is rational judgment and irrational judgment.  Judging a person based on his/her conduct/choices is rational to the extent that those choices give us information about a person.  Judging a person based on the color of skin they were born with is wholly irrational.

That, after all, is the comparison that meltdowner made.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828076 - 07/17/20 01:31 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Everyone judges everyone. There is rational judgment and irrational judgment




Agree.

Quote:

Judging a person based on his/her conduct/choices is rational to the extent that those choices give us information about a person. Judging a person based on the color of skin they were born with is wholly irrational.




Agree.

Quote:

That, after all, is the comparison that meltdowner made.




It wasn't the best example, but his *intent* was clear to me. You could replace his example with another one that involved conduct/choices and the result of his point would have been more poignant.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 01:32 AM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828081 - 07/17/20 01:36 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

...and completely worthless.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26828088 - 07/17/20 01:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That's harsh, man. Even if you don't agree fully there are easily nuances of truth in the point he's trying to make.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26828176 - 07/17/20 04:10 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Judging a person based on his/her conduct/choices is rational to the extent that those choices give us information about a person. Judging a person based on the color of skin they were born with is wholly irrational.




Agree.




Yet you said...

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Being a Trump supporter in 2020 is like being gay in 1980. You have to "come out of the closet" and deal with a mountain of persecution.




So it's rational to judge someone based on the choices they make, yet choosing to support Trump is equivalent to being homosexual in a time where homosexuals were heavily persecuted?

I'm confused about this, it seems like you hold conflicting viewpoints.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828299 - 07/17/20 06:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A better way to phrase your opinion would be to say "I think anyone who chooses to he a cop is scum."  Still extreme but at least it's clear.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: meltdowner]
    #26828372 - 07/17/20 07:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Capt bleach thinks jail is too dangerous for Paul Manafort but school is safe for my kids , the teachers and myself . Fuck that guy .


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828438 - 07/17/20 08:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
That's harsh, man. Even if you don't agree fully there are easily nuances of truth in the point he's trying to make.



Not if you look closely.  The "point" he's trying to make is that I'm a hypocrite by judging people for being cops while calling out racism.  If you substitute the racist part of the comparison, his point is that judging people rationally is the same as judging people rationally.

How much value would that point have really created here?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: meltdowner]
    #26828442 - 07/17/20 08:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
A better way to phrase your opinion would be to say "I think anyone who chooses to he a cop is scum."  Still extreme but at least it's clear.



That is functionally equivalent to what I said.  People don't become cops involuntarily, so people who are cops have chosen to be cops.

I'll try to break things down a bit more with you in the future.  I shouldn't expect you to make these logical connections.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26828771 - 07/17/20 11:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psilynut2 said:
Capt bleach thinks jail is too dangerous for Paul Manafort but school is safe for my kids , the teachers and myself . Fuck that guy .



Was Manafort the only person to be released from jail due to Covid?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26828801 - 07/17/20 11:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I shouldn't expect you to make these logical connections.




Gosh, I'm learning more what I can and can't say every day. This is great!


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Guy1980] * 1
    #26828827 - 07/17/20 12:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Guy1980 said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Judging a person based on his/her conduct/choices is rational to the extent that those choices give us information about a person. Judging a person based on the color of skin they were born with is wholly irrational.




Agree.




Yet you said...

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Being a Trump supporter in 2020 is like being gay in 1980. You have to "come out of the closet" and deal with a mountain of persecution.




So it's rational to judge someone based on the choices they make, yet choosing to support Trump is equivalent to being homosexual in a time where homosexuals were heavily persecuted?

I'm confused about this, it seems like you hold conflicting viewpoints.




Let's break down the first quote again.

"Judging a person based on his/her conduct/choices is rational to the extent that those choices give us information about a person."

What information does being told someone is a Trump supporter provide an observer? It provides them the information that they are a Trump supporter. That's it. No more, no less. It doesn't mean they're evil, misguided or scumbags. You're gonna have to dig and ask questions to figure that out. Many Trump supporters are bright people, just like many anti-Trumpers are bright people.

Trump supporters come in all sizes and flavors. Now you can make some ASSUMPTIONS about that person (in the same way people make assumptions about gay people), but those assumptions are going to likely be wrong.

It is the IRRATIONAL, (not enough information), RESPONSE from others that connects the two ides of being gay and being a trump supporter together. It is OBSERVING HOW OTHERS REACT TO THE INFORMATION that ALL the patterns are the same: irrational judgment, fear, family and friends ostracization, loss of job, refusing to ask questions about the situation, etc...

In the end, judging someone JUST for being a Trump supporter and nothing else is pure ignorance at best and maliciousness at worst.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 12:03 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 3
    #26828878 - 07/17/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

What information does being told someone is a Trump supporter provide an observer? It provides them the information that they are a Trump supporter. That's it. No more, no less.




You're completely wrong here.  Being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1. One values honesty very little.
2. One doesn't value global perception of the U.S.
3. A propensity for personality-worship over merit-based judgment.
4. A tolerance for racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, and pettiness.


There are plenty more, but these are crystal clear at this point.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26828885 - 07/17/20 12:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:

What information does being told someone is a Trump supporter provide an observer? It provides them the information that they are a Trump supporter. That's it. No more, no less.




You're completely wrong here.  Being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1. One values honesty very little.
2. One doesn't value global perception of the U.S.
3. A propensity for personality-worship over merit-based judgment.
4. A tolerance for racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, and pettiness.


There are plenty more, but these are crystal clear at this point.




No. That's all assumptive bullshit. Like, to such a ridiculous degree.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26828896 - 07/17/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, it isn't.  Trump lies all the time to the American people.  To support him means that one is okay with being lied to.  Trump has made the nation a global laughing stock.  To support him is to not care about this.  Trump has never done anything deserving of his office except be a reality star and loud personality.  To support him is to approve of these traits.  Trump has proven himself to be reprehensible in terms of his conduct and beliefs.  To support him is to tolerate those reprehensible traits.

You can pretend I'm incorrect, but I'm not.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828904 - 07/17/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That’s pretty  accurate In my experience  . A Trump supporter that lives down the street from my mom has a giant sign that says
“. Katie from ( it lists her address) is a carpet munching demon slut . Then there are 30 others signs all pro  trump and anti liberal In this huge display of pathetic vulgarity in his yard .
  I stoped to take some pics one day and they ran outside screaming at me .
  Qanon nutters for sure .


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26828919 - 07/17/20 12:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No, it isn't.  Trump lies all the time to the American people.  To support him means that one is okay with being lied to.  Trump has made the nation a global laughing stock.  To support him is to not care about this.  Trump has never done anything deserving of his office except be a reality star and loud personality.  To support him is to approve of these traits.  Trump has proven himself to be reprehensible in terms of his conduct and beliefs.  To support him is to tolerate those reprehensible traits.

You can pretend I'm incorrect, but I'm not.




No pretending, here. Your position of judging half the nation without even knowing what facts or ideas are floating around in their head is morally reprehensible.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26828922 - 07/17/20 12:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Half the nation?  How do you figure?  He didn't even get half the vote.  Less than 1/5 of the nation voted for him.

Besides, keep this in mind:  Picture the average American, then recognize that half of all Americans are even dumber than that.



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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828931 - 07/17/20 12:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

He thinks children get to vote too.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828937 - 07/17/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Half the nation?  How do you figure?  He didn't even get half the vote.  Less than 1/5 of the nation voted for him.

Besides, keep this in mind:  Picture the average American, then recognize that half of all Americans are even dumber than that.




Forgive me. 49.5% of the nation. My inaccuracy is my shame. :rolleyes:


But honestly, Trump is going get 55%+ of the popular vote this year.

I'm WELL aware of how dumb (and yet still sincere), the average American is. My job has led me into over 10,000 homes over a dozen different states. I've had conversations with every aspect of America from poor to middle to upper middle to upper class on the left, right and center. I KNOW, intimately, what rural America looks like and what its people look like.

You are baselessly judging half our nation and I stand by what I said. In fact, I'll go further. It's people like you with pre-conceived notions of Trump supporters that have caused people like me to say fuck it and vote for the guy this year... something I DIDN'T do in 2016.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 12:56 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26828942 - 07/17/20 12:56 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Again, less than 20% of the nation voted for Trump.  You're just pulling fiction out of your ass, much like Trump does.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828949 - 07/17/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What I'm hearing from you is that Trump supporters are better at preforming their civic duty to vote.

I agree. Trump supporters are better at preforming their civic duty, period.

That aside, you're also assuming that the vast majority of non-voters would have voted against Trump if they cared to involve themselves.

You have absolutely no proof for that and yet you accuse me of making up fictitious points.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828952 - 07/17/20 01:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How does one support a political candidate?  By voting or contributing money to the campaign.  So, tell me....how did these other 100 million people who didn't vote support Trump?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828960 - 07/17/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

How does one support a political candidate?  By voting or contributing money to the campaign.




This is not an exhaustive list.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828963 - 07/17/20 01:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I have already invited you to provide an alternative way one could support trump.  Are you going to do that?  Or are you just going to say, "nah."


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828967 - 07/17/20 01:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Using the protesters own logic against them, "spreading awareness" is supporting a cause.

But you can also have conversations and debates with others to share ideas. I know a lot of people that didn't vote that are passionate about politics.  Presidential voting happens once every four years. We do a LOT in between that, most of that being talking to one another.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828974 - 07/17/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

In either case, when I said 50% of the nation voted for trump, I obviously meant 50% of voters voted for Trump.

And with the way America is trending, I think it would be foolish to assume that the number of non-trump supporters who didn't vote is higher than the number of trump supporters that didn't vote.

So in pragmatic theory, 50% of the nation supports trump.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26828975 - 07/17/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, so you've made the claim.  You have the burden of proof.  Where is your evidence that 100 million people who did not vote advocated in favor of Trump?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26828985 - 07/17/20 01:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1. One values honesty very little.
2. One doesn't value global perception of the U.S.
3. A propensity for personality-worship over merit-based judgment.
4. A tolerance for racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, and pettiness.



One could just as easily say that being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1.  One dislikes fake news
2.  One prefers peace to war
3.  A propensity for personality worship resulting from merit-based judgment
4.  A tolerance for other points of view.

These are all subjective and really don't mean much more than saying "being a Trump supporter means you're a big fat poo poo head!"

We should stick to specifics rather than generalities.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26828988 - 07/17/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Trump lies all the time to the American people.  To support him means that one is okay with being lied to.



News flash for Enlil.  Almost all politicians lie.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26828991 - 07/17/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Trump lies every day to the American people.  He is the biggest source of fake news.  Trump hasn't withdrawn troops despite being able to do it with a phone call.  Those are specifics.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26829000 - 07/17/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Where is your evidence that 100 million people who did not vote advocated in favor of Trump?




Before I answer the question, I need to back up.

Quote:

Less than 1/5 of the nation voted for him.




That's because children and prisoners can't vote. You know this. I know this. Let's be a little more intellectually honest, shall we?

Here are the numbers.  230 million eligible voters. 130 million voted. 62 million for Trump as opposed to 64 million for killary. That's closer to 27% of eligible voters that voted for the guy as opposed to Hillary's 28%. Let's not add the opinions of children or prisoners into this conversation.

So for the remaining 45% of eligible voters that did not vote, we obviously don't have any evidence and we never will, but PRAGMATICALLY and using the philosophy of rationalism, it's easy to assume that somewhere between 1/3 and 2/3 of that number prefer Trump in 2020.

So whether or not 40% of eligible voters are Trump supporters or 60% are, it doesn't really matter. My point is the same and nit-picking the exact numbers is a red herring distracting from my main point, so I'll say it again in different words so you can't toss another crimson fish my way:

Your pre-conceived judgment of a huge chunk of our nation (Somewhere between 40-60% of all eligible voters), due to the candidate they support is disgustingly reprehensible.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 01:22 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829002 - 07/17/20 01:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Your position of judging half the nation without even knowing what facts or ideas are floating around in their head is morally reprehensible.



Half the nation?  How do you figure?  He didn't even get half the vote.  Less than 1/5 of the nation voted for him.



Now THAT'S what I call not arguing in good faith.

He didn't say half the nation voted for Trump, he said half the nation supported Trump.

Show me one poll where Trump only gets 20% approval.  :popcorn:


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829006 - 07/17/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

All of that is ducking your responsibility here.  You made the claim that half of the nation are trump supporters.  That's your claim...not mine.  If you think newborns can't be trump supporters, then you need to get your half from other people.  I'm not the one making stupid claims that I can't support.

So, are you going to support your claim that half of the nation are trump supporters?  Or are you going to admit you were wrong and revise your claim?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829008 - 07/17/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
In either case, when I said 50% of the nation voted for trump, I obviously meant 50% of voters voted for Trump.



It was only obvious to those who argue in good faith.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26829009 - 07/17/20 01:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:

What information does being told someone is a Trump supporter provide an observer? It provides them the information that they are a Trump supporter. That's it. No more, no less.




You're completely wrong here.  Being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1. One values honesty very little.
2. One doesn't value global perception of the U.S.
3. A propensity for personality-worship over merit-based judgment.
4. A tolerance for racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, and pettiness.


There are plenty more, but these are crystal clear at this point.




1. They all lie, some are just better than others.

2. I don't give a shit what some foreigners think or don't think about the status of the US.

3. Personality is one of the reasons why people vote in the first place.  Obama was very likable, that helped him win.

4. Tolerance for isms is all we have today, otherwise we wouldn't even exist.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26829014 - 07/17/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Show me one poll where Trump only gets 20% approval.  :popcorn:



Approval and support are two different things.  He can't claim support of nonvoters in the same proportion of voters just because.  He needs data to support that claim.  Many nonvoters are nonvoters because they are apathetic.  Apathy is not support.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829015 - 07/17/20 01:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of that is ducking your responsibility here.  You made the claim that half of the nation are trump supporters.  That's your claim...not mine.  If you think newborns can't be trump supporters, then you need to get your half from other people.  I'm not the one making stupid claims that I can't support.

So, are you going to support your claim that half of the nation are trump supporters?  Or are you going to admit you were wrong and revise your claim?




Did you even READ my last reply before typing all that? :facepalm:


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 01:28 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26829019 - 07/17/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
In either case, when I said 50% of the nation voted for trump, I obviously meant 50% of voters voted for Trump.



It was only obvious to those who argue in good faith.



That's not what he said, though.  Again, he's moving the goal posts, and you're pretending he isn't.  I made a claim about trump supporters, and he said I was judging "half the nation."  Implicit in this is that half of the population of America are trump supporters.  This isn't even close to true, but he still wants to hold me responsible for judging half the nation.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829020 - 07/17/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Show me one poll where Trump only gets 20% approval.  :popcorn:



Many nonvoters are nonvoters because they are apathetic.  Apathy is not support.




I will actually concede to this point and suggest the number of trump supporters needs to go down another 5% or so. So it's likely somewhere between 35-55% of all eligible voters, likely instead of 40-60%.

This is still all a red herring, though. I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass due to some premeditated attempt to deceive. Of course, I now know some people here like to judge Trump supporters in advance. :wink:


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 01:32 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829021 - 07/17/20 01:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
All of that is ducking your responsibility here.  You made the claim that half of the nation are trump supporters.  That's your claim...not mine.  If you think newborns can't be trump supporters, then you need to get your half from other people.  I'm not the one making stupid claims that I can't support.

So, are you going to support your claim that half of the nation are trump supporters?  Or are you going to admit you were wrong and revise your claim?




Did you even READ my last reply before typing all that? :facepalm:



Yup...that's why I wrote that.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829023 - 07/17/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Show me one poll where Trump only gets 20% approval.  :popcorn:



Many nonvoters are nonvoters because they are apathetic.  Apathy is not support.




I will actually concede to this point and suggest the number needs to go down another 5% or so.



So your claim is now what?  What percentage of the population of America are the "trump supporters" that I am judging?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829027 - 07/17/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Edited the above post for more clarity.

This is all still a red herring.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829031 - 07/17/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
All of that is ducking your responsibility here.  You made the claim that half of the nation are trump supporters.  That's your claim...not mine.  If you think newborns can't be trump supporters, then you need to get your half from other people.  I'm not the one making stupid claims that I can't support.

So, are you going to support your claim that half of the nation are trump supporters?  Or are you going to admit you were wrong and revise your claim?



That's some serious intellectually dishonesty.  I'll make a signature bet that Trump's approval rating is closer to 50% than to the 20% number you're trying to throw around.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829032 - 07/17/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, so you can't support your original claim, and you can't amend your claim to be something supportable.

Got it.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829033 - 07/17/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Okay, so you can't support your original claim, and you can't amend your claim to be something supportable.

Got it.






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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26829034 - 07/17/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

That's some serious intellectually dishonesty.  I'll make a signature bet that Trump's approval rating is closer to 50% than to the 20% number you're trying to throw around.



That's a strawman.  Nowhere have I ever said his approval rating was 20%.  I said that less than 20% of the population voted for him.  I did this to invite Vahn to prove that another 30% of the population supports trump.  He hasn't done that.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829038 - 07/17/20 01:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The latest polls show Trump's approval at around 45%, not 20%.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26829039 - 07/17/20 01:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

That's some serious intellectually dishonesty.  I'll make a signature bet that Trump's approval rating is closer to 50% than to the 20% number you're trying to throw around.



That's a strawman.  Nowhere have I ever said his approval rating was 20%.  I said that less than 20% of the population voted for him.  I did this to invite Vahn to prove that another 30% of the population supports trump.  He hasn't done that.




Yeah, you're being incredibly intellectually dishonest. I broke everything down for you in more than one way and I'm not interested in discussing this further. You're trying to paint me out to be something I'm not and it's rather pissing me off. I've been CRYSTAL clear in what I think and how I think it. If you missed it, go back and read it all again.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 01:38 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26829043 - 07/17/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The latest polls show Trump's approval at around 45%, not 20%.



Again...irrelevant to this discussion.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829047 - 07/17/20 01:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:

Yeah, you're being incredibly intellectually dishonest. I broke everything down for you in more than one way and I'm not interested in discussing this further. You're trying to paint me out to be something I'm not and it's rather pissing me off. I've been CRYSTAL clear in what I think and how I think it. If you missed it, go back and read it all again.



I accept your surrender.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829049 - 07/17/20 01:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You really ought to change the color of your fish from purple to red. It would suit you much better.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 01:43 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26829053 - 07/17/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ah....there's another trait of the trump supporter.  I don't judge a fish by the color of his scales, however.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829056 - 07/17/20 01:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Actually let me guess. That fish isn't purple, it's indigo, maybe violet. And now we're going to have a debate all about it and my intellectual dishonesty, right?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829059 - 07/17/20 01:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The latest polls show Trump's approval at around 45%, not 20%.



Again...irrelevant to this discussion.



You said approval and support are two different things.  What's the difference?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829062 - 07/17/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That fish is whatever color he/she is.  He/she is perfect.  I don't judge creatures based on immutable traits. That wouldn't be rational.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829067 - 07/17/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ah, so the red herring argument is now racist.  :rolleyes:

The PC movement has gone too far.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26829068 - 07/17/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

You said approval and support are two different things.  What's the difference?



One is active and one is passive.  I can passively approve of something without actively supporting it.  My comment was about trump supporters.  People who actively support him.  I said nothing about people who approve of things he's done or not done.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26829071 - 07/17/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ah, so the red herring argument is now racist.  :rolleyes:



It wasn't a red herring argument.  He was literally speaking of my literal fish and the literal color of said fish.  Are you unable to follow this conversation?


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26829103 - 07/17/20 02:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Trump supporters come in many varieties.

You have the classic MAGA wearing hat Trump supporters that can be broken down into at *least* two categories. people like this, and people like this. (There are likely more.)

The former is crazy in the same way the far left is crazy. The latter is incredibly educated, intellectual, and often black. Both of these groups vote.

Then you have the the disgruntled Trump supporters who are going to vote for him to spite Biden just because they hate Biden.

Also also have the nihilistic Trump supporters who enjoy watching the chaos.

You have the anti-deep state Trump supporters who just want to watch Hollywood, the media and the politicians squirm. (This is me, primarily, with other secondary reasons.)

Let's also not forget the Trump supporters who go along with it because all their family and friends are doing it and they just want to fit in and haven't educated themselves enough to have their own opinion.

There's also a lot of Trump supporters who just won't bring themselves to vote for whatever reason.


Now, to recap what Enlil said:

Quote:

Being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1. One values honesty very little.
2. One doesn't value global perception of the U.S.
3. A propensity for personality-worship over merit-based judgment.
4. A tolerance for racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, and pettiness.




And now for the third time I'm going to say, this take is reprehensible bullshit. Even inside every single one of these groups you have individuals of all colors and flavors that have their own personal take and many vary from one another.

Something I heard from a friend that is quite astute right now: We see our opposition as misguided, but they seem to see us as evil.




--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 02:12 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829108 - 07/17/20 02:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Trump is Hollywood and the media, dude....

You can judge me all day and all night.  Whatever you may think of me, I've been called far worse.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829110 - 07/17/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think you're misguided, not evil. Of course, your current mood under your profile pic literally says otherwise. :lol:


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 02:14 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829111 - 07/17/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Trump is Hollywood and the media, dude....

You can judge me all day and all night.  Whatever you may think of me, I've been called far worse.




Show me where in Hollywood Trump is being supported.

As for the media. Just so my words don't get jumped on, I'm of course talking about the mainstream media minus Fox News.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829115 - 07/17/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
It wasn't a red herring argument.  He was literally speaking of my literal fish and the literal color of said fish.  Are you unable to follow this conversation?



Let's look at the conversation:

Vahn421 said:  This is all still a red herring...  you're being incredibly intellectually dishonest. I broke everything down for you in more than one way and I'm not interested in discussing this further. You're trying to paint me out to be something I'm not and it's rather pissing me off. I've been CRYSTAL clear in what I think and how I think it. If you missed it, go back and read it all again.
Enlil said:  I accept your surrender.
Vahn421 said:  You really ought to change the color of your fish from purple to red. It would suit you much better.
Enlil said:  Ah....there's another trait of the trump supporter.  I don't judge a fish by the color of his scales, however.

It seems to me the color comment WAS related to the red herring.  :shrug:


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26829130 - 07/17/20 02:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

He's talking about the fish in my avatar, dude.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26829144 - 07/17/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It seems to me the color comment WAS related to the red herring.




Falcon is correct. It was a Red Herring joke. A red fish as an avatar would suit you much better if we were to take just the last hour of debate into consideration. (I hate explaining jokes...)

Regardless, you made a good point about many people being nihilistic and just not caring or not voting at all, and I amended my numbers to account for that because I'm also trying to paint an accurate picture. I've no intention of misleading anyone or misrepresenting my position.

It was all a red herring, however, because the point I was trying to make is that you have MILLIONS of Trump supporters in this nation that have a myriad of different reasons they support him, whether or not they wind up voting.

I'm not interested in discussing the nuances of those numbers. (Despite the fact that I already did.) I'm interested in asserting that you can't judge all Trump supporters in the same manner without your BEHAVIOR mirroring anti-gay Christians 40 years ago.

I think I've made a plenty strong case for that, now.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 02:29 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829171 - 07/17/20 02:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think so.  75% of Americans are stupid AF.  That's 100's of millions of people.  Yes, I can judge them stupid.  The amount of people in a group doesn't really change the analysis.  There are literally billions of people on the planet that believe in some mystical sky faerie or another.  All of those people are irrational and delusional.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829195 - 07/17/20 02:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

75% of Americans are stupid AF.




I think that number is too low, actually...

But being dumb doesn't make one immoral. In fact if anything it validates you SHOULDN'T be judging them any more than you can judge a dog.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829210 - 07/17/20 02:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Should....shouldn't...now you're getting into your personal beliefs.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829223 - 07/17/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Being a Trump supporter means, at the very least:

1. One values honesty very little.
2. One doesn't value global perception of the U.S.
3. A propensity for personality-worship over merit-based judgment.
4. A tolerance for racism, sexism, misogyny, bullying, and pettiness.
5. You're stupid!




Just updating your list for you.

It's still all bullshit though.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829228 - 07/17/20 03:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not all Trump supporters are stupid.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829232 - 07/17/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oh, so they're willfully malicious in their support for Trump?

Honestly, I lean more toward many of them being stupid far more than the other 4 on your list. :lol:


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829242 - 07/17/20 03:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Why would you call them willfully malicious?  Some are, probably.  Not all.  All of them have the four traits I listed.  Anything that isn't found in 100% of the group shouldn't be included on the list.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829261 - 07/17/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Why would you call them willfully malicious?  Some are, probably.  Not all.  All of them have the four traits I listed.  Anything that isn't found in 100% of the group shouldn't be included on the list.





Okay, here's the new list then:


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829268 - 07/17/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Says you.  I have searched far and wide, and I have not found a single trump supporter that did not have all four of the traits I listed.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829285 - 07/17/20 03:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I place honesty on a pedestal above every other human virtue in my entire existence.

So without going any further, you now you have to take back those words, despite the fact that I think you're lying in the first place.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829290 - 07/17/20 03:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

No, you don't.  You delight in lies insofar as they support your worldview.  In fact, you are among the most dishonest people in this forum, IMO.

Now, be careful here...YOU are the one who put yourself in the critique seat.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829295 - 07/17/20 03:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

No, you don't.  You delight in lies insofar as they support your worldview.  In fact, you are among the most dishonest people in this forum, IMO.




Absolutely fascinating.

Quote:

Now, be careful here...YOU are the one who put yourself in the critique seat.




I don't care what people here think of me.


Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 03:50 PM)


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Vahn421]
    #26829301 - 07/17/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But you do complain about what people say about you.


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Re: The hypocrisy on the part of the political left and Covid-19 [Re: Enlil]
    #26829334 - 07/17/20 04:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

But you do complain about what people say about you.




For rational reasons relating to debate etiquette, not because I emotionally give a fuck.

Ad hominem and red herrings are tools of the weak.

I'm spelling it out for the lurkers, because I don't expect to influence my opposition yet, if ever.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/17/20 04:09 PM)


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