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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: meltdowner] * 1
    #26924929 - 09/08/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

meltdowner said:
People get sick.  People die.  It's not always somelnes fault. 





This isn't about who's at fault, though. It's about whether or not you're going to do something that reduces the risk of death. Are you familiar with the old trolley car problem? It's an old philosophical device used to discuss various ethical principles. If you need a refresher, here you go:

Let's say there's a group of about three people (about three people is how many you are estimated to infect if you are infected with the coronavirus and fail to intervene) tied to some railroad tracks in sequence. There's an unmanned train coming down the tracks, and this train might kill all of the people tied to the tracks if it doesn't get out of the way. Some may be able to survive after being run over, but there's no knowing for sure ahead of time. You are standing on a bridge over the tracks, where you have access to a lever. If you pull the lever in a timely manner, the train will be diverted to a parallel track and will not run anyone over. The question is: do you have a moral obligation to pull the lever?

If you were to take the moral principle you are applying to mask-wearing and instead apply it universally in your life philosophy, you would find yourself arguing that you are under no moral obligation to pull the lever because it's not your fault that these people got run over by a train. It's just the train, which is unmanned. Let's say you don't pull the lever and the train runs over all three people. Two of them die. One survives miraculously thanks to medical technology, but he now has to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. Are you responsible for that harm? No, not really. After all, you didn't build the train, you didn't set it on course, you didn't make the decision to leave it unmanned, you didn't tie anyone to the tracks, etc. However, I would still argue that you failed to act in an ethical manner. You could have done something that might have prevented these deaths, but you didn't.

There are a few arguments I've heard anti-maskers make, and I think all of them can be shown to be absurd when applied to the analogous trolley car problem I've constructed here. I'll be honest, I'm making the assumption that you are relying on one or more of these arguments to justify your anti-mask position. I am aware that this assumption may be incorrect. If it is, I'm happy to hear what your actual argument is. I promise that if you do so, I will continue in honest discussion with you.

1. The masks don't work argument. Some people have tried to argue that masks are ineffective at preventing the spread of the coronavirus. There are scientists who disagree. I'm happy to provide a list of scientists who have, based on their expertise within the field of epidemiology, expressed publicly that masks will help reduce the spread of the coronavirus. Compare this to the trolley car problem. Let's say that an experienced railroad engineer has examined the lever system that will divert the train and makes a public statement that the lever will, indeed, most likely divert the train. Of course, he wasn't the engineer who designed this particular railway system, so he can't make a guarantee that it will work. That said, he says that pulling the lever will likely save lives, and his expertise makes him much more qualified to make a statement about it than, say, a politician with zero railroad engineering expertise. Would you then stand next to the lever, failing to pull it simply because it might not work if you do it? Would you just allow the train to run these people over simply because there exists a reasonable doubt that the lever might not work? If so, are you also willing to apply such logic to your own self-preservation? For example, are you going to stop wearing a seatbelt when you drive a car simply because it might not save your life when you get in a wreck? If not, then why aren't you applying the same principle towards protecting the lives of other people?

2. The liberty (or freedom) argument. Some people have tried to argue that a government mandate to wear masks is an infringement on public liberty, sometimes even claiming that a mask mandate is unconstitutional. There are a few problems with this argument, though. First of all, it's unclear which particular constitutional liberty is being violated by a mask mandate. However, the argument falls apart without any reference to the constitution when we go back to the trolley car problem. Let's say you decide to not pull the lever because you have the freedom (or right, or liberty) not to do so. That's fine, but don't the people who are tied to the tracks have the right (or freedom, or liberty) to live? Don't they have the right to not be run over by a train? Which one is more important to you: your freedom to not pull the lever, or their freedom to live? If the former is more important to you, then why?

3. The Fear (or tyranny) argument. Some people have tried to argue that a government mandate to wear masks is tyrannical, and that people who wear masks are only doing so out of fear from government retaliation. First of all, government mandates that protect public health are not examples of tyranny. Tyranny is when a government abuses their power to oppress the governed. Developing a nuclear weapon in your own home is illegal. In other words, there is a government mandate that you not develop a nuclear weapon in your own home. The most reasonable explanation for this mandate is that it exists for the protection of humanity, since nuclear weapons are so destructive. The pro-nuker explanation for this mandate is that it is a power-move by the American government to oppress people who want to develop nuclear weapons in their own homes. However, that's absurd. It's quite obvious that this mandate doesn't exist to oppress. It exists to protect, and protection is the opposite of oppression. A government mandate to wear a mask isn't oppressive, which means it isn't tyrannical. The mandate exists to protect people from harm, which is exactly the opposite of what a tyrannical government would do. Going back to the trolley car problem, let's say that your government requires you to pull the lever. Would you then argue that the government is oppressing you? If so, wouldn't you also argue that the government is oppressing the three people tied to the tracks, since they are failing to enact policies that protect them from severe injury or death? If not, then in what way is the mandate oppressive that the lack of a mandate isn't?

===

Conclusion:

Anti-masking is a morally bankrupt position to hold. It shows a blatant disregard for the protection of public health. Wearing a mask has been scientifically shown to slow the spread of the virus. The choice to not wear a mask is not an exercise of personal freedom. In fact, the choice to not wear a mask is a sign that you value your own "freedom" to not wear a mask more than you value another person's freedom to live. The government mandate to wear a mask is not tyrannical. The mandate works towards protecting the lives of American citizens, which is the polar opposite of oppression.

Finally, I'll leave on somewhat of a meta-point: the only reason that masks vs. no masks has become such a divisive and politicized issue in America is because we are approaching a presidential election. The technical term from political theory that best describes "the mask issue" is that it's a wedge issue. When it comes to economic policy and military expansion, we live in a country governed by a one-party democratic system. Whether you vote for Joe Biden or Donald Trump (the only two candidates who stand a statistical chance of winning) in the upcoming election, you are going to be voting for a neo-liberal: a pro-capitalist, pro-military, pro-police, pro-mass-incarceration candidate. Capitalism oppresses the American working class, the American military oppresses third-world countries all over the planet, the American police and the criminal justice system oppress drug users (an issue that ought to be particularly important to everyone on this forum, since this forum is dedicated to the discussion of psilocybin, a Schedule-I substance), minorities, and the poor. These systems are our real enemy, and they presently pose the largest threat to our liberty, and even to our own survival (I'm talking about climate change there). Neither of these two candidates are criticizing capitalism. Neither of these two candidates are criticizing the interventionism and exploitation of our military. Neither of these two candidates are criticizing our morally bankrupt criminal justice system. The candidates who criticize these status-quo systems are branded as extremists: Bernie Sanders is the most recent example, but Ron Paul is a more dated example if you remember that guy.

The purpose of a wedge issue is to divide the working class against itself to create the illusion that there is a significant difference between two candidates who actually come from the same party. Both Joe Biden and Donald Trump are neo-liberal capitalists (not to mention that both of them are senile rapists with an extensive history of racism), but when it comes to earning the support of voters, there's two significant issues on which they differ right now: the first is whether or not you should wear a mask and socially distance. The second is whether or not you support the Black Lives Matter movement and all of the protests that have been happening as a result of police brutality (note that police brutality itself is no longer being debated between the two candidates, and that the discussion has shifted to whether or not the protestors ought to be condemned for rioting, etc.). Right now, the biggest indicators of who you are going to vote for are how you feel about BLM and how you feel about masks. These aren't the only two wedge issues that exist right now, but they are the two largest ones, and their purpose is to distract you from the fact that both of these candidates are the fuckwads who are responsible for your oppression (and for the oppression of millions of people in third-world countries).

There were different wedge issues during the election four years ago, because Hilary Clinton is also a neo-liberal capitalist fuck. If you remember the 2016 election, the two most significant wedge issues were immigration policy and women's rights. If you recall, the voting population was similarly divided, and there were also protests back then (though, they were for women's rights rather than for the protection of black people from the police). A less significant, but still effective, wedge issue that was both present in the last election and in the current election is the supreme court's interpretation of the Second Amendment. Another one is LGBTQ+ rights.

Before I end this short essay, I'd like to point out that wedge issues still matter. Just because these issues serve primarily to obfuscate the true motives of mainstream politics (namely: capitalism, military expansion, and authoritarian law-enforcement) doesn't mean that we should stop paying attention to wedge issues. The policies that our government enacts with respect to wedge issues still impact people's lives. In some cases, these policies can even be a difference between life and death. Black lives DO matter, you SHOULD wear a fucking mask, we DO need gun control in the US, LGB people SHOULD be allowed to fuck and marry whoever they want (with consent), transgender people literally ARE the genders they identify as, our immigration policies ARE in serious need of reform to be more favorable towards immigrants and refugees, and women DO have the right to an abortion. These issues all matter, and the policies that our government enacts with respect to these issues will affect people's lives.

All of that said, it's important for us to remember that there are much bigger enemies at play here, and that the longer we delay making progress on these wedge issues, the more invisible the status-quo becomes. It is a problem that trans people don't have rights, but many more lives are impacted by our military presence in the middle east. It is a problem that black people are treated unfairly by our criminal justice system, but many more lives are impacted by our oppressive capitalist economy, which is really only advantageous for the wealthy few. It is a problem that some people are still refusing to wear masks, but many more lives are impacted by the fact that healthcare isn't affordable for literally millions of Americans. You should still fucking vote in this election, but don't forget that Bernie Sanders would have been a far better choice than Joe Biden, and that the only reason that he was labeled as an extremist (both by the Democrats and the Republicans) is because he openly criticized the neo-liberal status quo that we've been governed by for the past several decades.

TL;DR: Wear a fucking mask. I know Trump sucks, I know Biden sucks, but you should still vote. *mic drop*


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Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26924974 - 09/08/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

I like your points, but I take issue with using the trolley problem.

Lemme rephrase the trolley problem:

You're a doctor, and you have 3-5 patients undergoing organ failure for various reasons outside of their control. They will die without transplants. An otherwise healthy man comes into the ER with a broken leg. Do you, uh, "part him out" to save the lives of the people undergoing organ failure?


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Kryptos]
    #26924980 - 09/08/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I like your points, but I take issue with using the trolley problem.

Lemme rephrase the trolley problem:

You're a doctor, and you have 3-5 patients undergoing organ failure for various reasons outside of their control. They will die without transplants. An otherwise healthy man comes into the ER with a broken leg. Do you, uh, "part him out" to save the lives of the people undergoing organ failure?



That's not a rephrasing at all, though, because pulling a lever isn't the same thing as killing a man to harvest his corpse for organs. Your hypothetical involves harming another person to save lives. My hypothetical example doesn't involve harming anyone to save lives. Wearing a mask isn't like killing someone and harvesting their organs. Wearing a mask is more like pulling a lever.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Kryptos]
    #26924983 - 09/08/20 04:49 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Lemme rephrase the trolley problem:

You're a doctor, and you have 3-5 patients undergoing organ failure for various reasons outside of their control. They will die without transplants. An otherwise healthy man comes into the ER with a broken leg. Do you, uh, "part him out" to save the lives of the people undergoing organ failure?



But nobody has to get "parted out" by putting on a mask.

Edit:  Nonagon Infinity beat me to it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26924997 - 09/08/20 04:59 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Kryptos said:
I like your points, but I take issue with using the trolley problem.

Lemme rephrase the trolley problem:

You're a doctor, and you have 3-5 patients undergoing organ failure for various reasons outside of their control. They will die without transplants. An otherwise healthy man comes into the ER with a broken leg. Do you, uh, "part him out" to save the lives of the people undergoing organ failure?



That's not a rephrasing at all, though, because pulling a lever isn't the same thing as killing a man to harvest his corpse for organs. Your hypothetical involves harming another person to save lives. My hypothetical example doesn't involve harming anyone to save lives. Wearing a mask isn't like killing someone and harvesting their organs. Wearing a mask is more like pulling a lever.




If the action of pulling a lever results in a death, then it is killing someone.

Most people that are cut open and have their organs removed don't die of the cutting action of a scalpel, they die from blood loss and, well, organ removal.

In both cases, you are taking direct action in killing someone to save the lives of other people.

Edit: Ah, I see you didn't actually use the trolley problem, you used a bastardized version in which the action taken has no ethical downsides. Carry on then, but don't call it the trolley problem.

The trolley problem is a specific ethical dilemma in which you must take action to kill one, or through inaction, allow many to die.


Edited by Kryptos (09/08/20 05:01 PM)


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InvisibleShenmue
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Registered: 12/21/18
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: searching]
    #26925004 - 09/08/20 05:06 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

As soon as there's a vaccine im done wearing a mask. I don't even know anyone in my area that's died from covid-19.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Shenmue]
    #26925008 - 09/08/20 05:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

we can't wear masks forever.. covid-19 is here to stay and it's not as bad as cnn is telling everyone.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26925076 - 09/08/20 06:03 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
The trolley problem is a specific ethical dilemma in which you must take action to kill one, or through inaction, allow many to die.



I don't want to go on too much about this, but I'll just say that there are many different modes of the trolley problem. Some involve pulling a lever, which will move the train from a track that has three victims to a track that has only one, as you've pointed out. Some modes involve pulling a lever, which will move the train from a track that has three innocent people to a track that has three active serial killers. Some modes involve you pushing a large person out in front of the train so that their body protects the other three. All of these different problems can colloquially fall under the name "trolley problem".

So yes, I modified the trolley problem so that diverting the train came at no cost of additional lives, because I find that to be the most ethically similar to the real-world example of wearing a mask. If you want me to call it the "modified trolley problem" or something like that, I could agree to it, but I'd also say that it's extremely pedantic and doesn't modify the strength of my argument whatsoever.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Shenmue] * 1
    #26925087 - 09/08/20 06:07 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
As soon as there's a vaccine im done wearing a mask.



I'm going to stop wearing a mask when scientists agree that it's safe for us to stop.

Quote:

Shenmue said:
I don't even know anyone in my area that's died from covid-19.




Just because a problem hasn't yet affected anyone in your immediate social sphere doesn't mean that it's not a problem.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26925758 - 09/09/20 06:29 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nonagon Infinity said:
Quote:

Shenmue said:
As soon as there's a vaccine im done wearing a mask.



I'm going to stop wearing a mask when scientists agree that it's safe for us to stop.

Quote:

Shenmue said:
I don't even know anyone in my area that's died from covid-19.




Just because a problem hasn't yet affected anyone in your immediate social sphere doesn't mean that it's not a problem.




None of my friend's or family know anyone that's died from it. My union hall has 700 members. Every month we pay 10$ for every member thats died. Guess what!!!! None of them have died from covid-19!!! That's a big fucking social sphere! So yeah I truly believe we're being lied to about how deadly this thing is!


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Shenmue] * 1
    #26926074 - 09/09/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
None of my friend's or family know anyone that's died from it. My union hall has 700 members. Every month we pay 10$ for every member thats died. Guess what!!!! None of them have died from covid-19!!! That's a big fucking social sphere! So yeah I truly believe we're being lied to about how deadly this thing is!




That's interesting. I'm curious to hear more about your theory here. Who, specifically, do you think is behind the lies? What do they stand to gain from lying to the masses about how many people have died from COVID-19?


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Nonagon Infinity] * 2
    #26926422 - 09/09/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Obviously, Big Mask is behind it.


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #26926452 - 09/09/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
Obviously, Big Mask is behind it.





Picture of the guy who makes all the masks.


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OfflineAgentGFunk
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Vahn421]
    #27021227 - 11/04/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Well this didn’t age well, considering all the newest data basically proves masks don’t do anything.

I’m not on the right or left, I only look at data, so I’m a completely non biased source.

I bet enlil feels pretty stupid right now, considering all this mask wearing nonsense was bullshit.

I can’t wait to see what rule enlil pretends I broke with this post to try to give me a bullshit temporary ban.

😂🤣😂🤣


--------------------
The voyage to the corner of the globe is a real TRIP.



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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: AgentGFunk] * 2
    #27021374 - 11/04/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

The masks have been proven effective.  Your post has proven you completely ill-informed.


--------------------
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InvisibleHartford
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Enlil]
    #27021635 - 11/04/20 02:50 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Should humans be required to wear masks from now on?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Hartford]
    #27021638 - 11/04/20 02:51 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

No.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

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OfflineEzuma
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Enlil]
    #27022454 - 11/04/20 11:09 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
No.



don't be too hasty, there's a lot of ugly folks out there


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OfflineHamHead
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: Ezuma]
    #27023354 - 11/05/20 02:08 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)



--------------------
The Italian researchers’ findings, published by the INT’s scientific magazine Tumori Journal, show 11.6% of 959 healthy volunteers enrolled in a lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020 had developed coronavirus antibodies well before February.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27V0KF

This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

https://www.icandecide.org/


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Politics and mask wearing [Re: HamHead] * 5
    #27023362 - 11/05/20 02:13 PM (3 years, 2 months ago)

That is some stupid shit.


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