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OfflineSpooge
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Evolution of the DMT experience
    #2681301 - 05/15/04 05:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Let me start out this topic by saying I have no hands on knowledge of the dmt experience(although I am just itching for the day I get to experience it).  With that said, I'll move on to my question.

I have been reading lots for the past year on dmt.  I have just recently begun listening to terrence mckenna's many recordings(i'm not positive...but his books and recordings were mainly created in the 70's?).  He talks about the experience and trys to explain it as best he can.  Talking about meeting these gnomes/elves and their visible language they show you.  Talks about the "gifts" they show you and their machine world, etc etc.  I know this is very vague, but I'm just trying to put it in a nutshell.  Now, many people have also had these same types of experiences.  Hence, many people have a common experience.  Going to another place(dimension if you will), meeting these "entities"...and in a nutshell, getting a look at their world so to say.    Am I even partially accurate so far?  So in the years and years of dmt use...there has been many common experiences?  I have read many descriptions, of breakthroughs, that are quite similiar.

Now, what I don't get is...if this IS another dimension and if this is some sort of other world, other entities, etc.....how come they have remained the same for so many many years? Or are they changing?(anyone feel this is happening?)  To me, it's the law of the universe that things HAVE to evolve.  How come things in that "world" have stayed, for the most part, the same?  Or have they?  Like I say, I have no experience with dmt...so anyone with any insights and other information, please share.

So if we establish that this world, these beings, etc...are not evolving(though I'm almost positive we won't establish that  :wink:  many different opinions and ideas floating out there)...can they really exist?  Maybe it IS all just in our mind.  Perhaps past memories.

Thoughts anyone?

:heart:


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OfflineLOBO
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2681458 - 05/15/04 08:40 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

What ever you read about DMT experiences are a poor description, what is impossible to describe.
What you experience with DMT is the impossible, don?t even try to comprehend how this entities evolve cuz is not how you think they are (you will understand me when you finally experience DMT)
DMT is the impossible made possible (I think McKenna said that) and I concur with him.


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2681486 - 05/15/04 09:04 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I appologize if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense..I'm tired as hell..bed time was about 6 hours ago.. :crazy:

I'd like to start by saying Terence has also been a big influence on me and my outlook on things.  Whenever I listen to his lectures..Quite frankly..I feel very thankful. Lucky even, to be able to hear him speak out his ideas, as if I were listening to him in person..I mean, he was such a unique man, who has been a big influence on many people I'm sure..even if indirectly.  The fact that his valuble thoughts and ideas are so easilly accessible to the public after his death..is totally awesome. 

I have dabbled with some thoughts regarding different aspects of the DMT experience and the "dimension" in which it seems to take place, some of which was posted in a past thread, along with others' thoughts on the subject..I'm almost certain it's not the only thread about these sorts of ideas..but I could probably dig up the link to it if your at all interested.  It was pretty much inspired by Terence's outlook on the experience.. It basically started out as an effort to argue against the possibility that the experience is completely 'external' as he suggested..and instead made an attempt at excercising the idea that these episodes take place entirely in the mind, as you also suggested.. Although I dont remember comming to any 'real' conclusions..(how could there be with such a topic?) in any case..by the end of the discussion I think it was starting to look like those involved in it were leaning towards agreeing with McKenna..in the sense that the experience could quite possibly be "external".. or perceiving information from outside sources.

Yes, I think your "vague" points as you called them are right on the money, in respect to Terence's beliefs regarding the experience.  To my understanding, Terence believed the experience was completely external and is perceived while also possibly filtered through the conscious mind.  I think I have been leaning towards agreeing with this.  Though, it doesn't really seem to me like something one could provide actual evidence for..

Damn..I should really learn to get to the point of things..I'm falling asleep here.. :sad:

I'm not sure Terence meant the DMT experience is the same every time he (or anyone else for that matter) did it.  I think what he was trying to say is..that when he smoked it..it brought him to the same place each time.  Not necessarily a repeat of the same experience.  (my appologies if this wasn't what you meant..)

In regards to your thoughts about the evolution of the "DMT realm.." I would think something like this could be very possible.  I have been thinking about the possibility that "god" and/or the entire universe as it expands..may essentially be evolving, atleast in some sense. Terence's novelty theory almost seems to suggest this also, now that I think about it.. If this is the case..I wouldn't see much reason to assume these higher dimensions wouldn't be involved in some kind of learning process..or evolution along with us. Perhaps the universes evolution is in one way or another directing ours?  Maybe it's these higher dimensions that could be what is driving our evolution..Terence did refer to the DMT realm as a sort of 'parent' reality to ours..

Must sleep..now.  :mushroom2:


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2681664 - 05/15/04 11:09 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Terence simplifies the whole thing in order to communicate one small aspect of the DMT experience, I wouldn't bother trying to figure anything out about it without smokin the stuff yourself.


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InvisibleNariusFractal
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2681781 - 05/15/04 11:45 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

terence's speeches were mainly in the mid late 90's not 70's


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You are the microcosm of the macrocosm.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: ekomstop]
    #2682236 - 05/15/04 02:41 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Good post.

Well, I do agree that the experience wouldn't be the same every time. Each time you get new information about this "place". But after reading and analyzing much information, I just notice that people who break through and begin to understand the experience(from what I hear, that is key), describe the same things about the entities. If you are getting a look at their world, wouldn't you be getting a look at what makes it tick? New ideas, feelings and thoughts that may be occuring in that realm?(because this is just some things that can happen with evolution). I know am really vague and apologize. It's so frustrating not being able to experience it for myself. I also don't have much time right now to explain myself fully.

I also do believe terrence's views on how it is an external experience. I haven't done dmt, but I have experienced 5 grams of mushrooms in the dark. I know it's not the same, but I feel somehow it's connected. I feel it takes down certain filters and you just get a "peak" so to say, at this other realm.

I like your ideas on the whole universe evolving thing. I have much more I want to talk about, but I don't have the time to make any big intricate ideas. I will come back later and post though.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2682269 - 05/15/04 02:48 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

.


Edited by Spooge (11/18/12 01:56 PM)


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2682839 - 05/15/04 05:05 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

ummmmm what? you are trying to understand the space through a huge oversimplification of the DMT experience. The question you're asking makes no sense to me, me being a person who has tripped on DMT. Why would DMT space "evolve"? What do you mean? You're trying to understand some aspect of a drug you've never taken right? You know how hard it is to communicate the experience of mushrooms, right? Well, what if somebody who had never done mushrooms tried to describe your trip to you and then ask a question about it. Likely you'd say "don't bother asking just try it."


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2683064 - 05/15/04 06:45 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Oh so people aren't allowed to ASK? I don't have to have done dmt to wonder what users of the drug think about the idea. Get off your high horse buddy.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2683275 - 05/15/04 07:44 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I understood his question and think it was actually a clever one. My opinion on the matter is that either the dmt landscape is non-evolving as it is a place void of conceptual time, or that evolution is taking place but much slower/noticably than our reality's.


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2683336 - 05/15/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I want to summarize how I see the issue of DMT :

-it is just a strange phenomenon happening in your consciousness, by changing the way the brain functions , or a psychology game, or whatever, but confined to your head
-or, you go to some other dimension, meet entities, feel vibrations and waves from other realities that are external for you somehow

I prefer the first, more rational option, somehow the idea that a drug will make me travel through space and leave my body is too weird. Changing just my way of thinking temporarily is a more sane explanation for me, that is the magic of drugs, and not a magic like a medieval witch tale of flying to some other place.

ps. I have not tripped yet with DMT, just with mushrooms and salvia, maybe trying it will make me a believer


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: gotmagog]
    #2683349 - 05/15/04 08:07 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well our present reality is based entirely on our brain's interpretations of input data. This occurs as a very complicated task and involves many neurochemical reactions and what not (I'm not very educated about this kind of stuff). The fact that DMT is naturally occuring in our bains means that it in some way, whether important or insignificant, affects our perception of reality. When we increase our brain's level of this compound our perception of reality changes drastically, and for obvious reasons. To say the reality perceieved with small amounts of naturally occurring DMT is any more real than the reality one enters after smoking DMT is a little naive. For now we can only make theories about the truth behind the experience, as I doubt anyone has the knowledge to go beyond that. One possible theory could be that if DMT is already occurring in our brains, it could act as way to perceive extremely small fragments of the true universe, and therefore my increasing the DMT levels we get a glimpse of a truer form of existence. But like I said, it's all theories.


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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: deff]
    #2683418 - 05/15/04 08:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well, everyone chooses his own cosmological model and idea of truth behind existance.

I think that death is the main mystery in the model of the world, and all psychedelics are just to make peace with oneself in this life, not the next.

But I can never be 100% sure if death is another world, or there are other existances. These experiences are always subjective and it is difficult to say whether the entities in your head are real alien elves or such, or just another side of yourself besides the ego and waking consciousness(i had a Salva trip where I still doubt if what I saw was entirely in my head)


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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: gotmagog]
    #2683461 - 05/15/04 08:38 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Well really, everything is in your head. To try and pick apart so-called reality from mind-created illusions is impossible.

My opinion on death is that we never die. And I don't mean we as in this fragment of consciousness inhabited in our organic bodies, but rather the greater we, everything, God. We are such a small fragment of it's infinite framework of energy and while our perceptual self "dies", the atoms that make our our body and mind, or further more the energy that makes up those, never does. It is recycled through this constant evolution of nothingness and our egos are what try to bring about the artificial fear of death to our organic compounds. Just as a flower dies, rots, and then bears nutrients for new flowers to grow, as does our species. Our nutrients rather are our discoveries, ideas, logic ect that we pass down through the generation. 100 years from now most humans alive today will be dead, yet our specie's society and teachings will remain through this recycling. Hell, the atoms that make up the molecules that make up the cells that make "you" have always been on this evolving ball we call earth, and were not created with the creation of your conception of "self". But enough rambling, thats just my (probably very inaccurate) view of things.


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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2683702 - 05/15/04 09:43 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Damn..I probably shouldn't have been posting last night.. :pill: :pill: :pill2: :nut: 

In any case..

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
ummmmm what? you are trying to understand the space through a huge oversimplification of the DMT experience. The question you're asking makes no sense to me, me being a person who has tripped on DMT. Why would DMT space "evolve"? What do you mean? You're trying to understand some aspect of a drug you've never taken right? You know how hard it is to communicate the experience of mushrooms, right? Well, what if somebody who had never done mushrooms tried to describe your trip to you and then ask a question about it. Likely you'd say "don't bother asking just try it."




Since when has it not been ok to think and ask questions?  Why jump on a person like that who seems to be honestly seeking out some kind of understanding?  I don't see a problem at all if someone who has not tried the stuff happens to be a little curious to come to a better understanding..or atleast be exposed to some alternate possibilities on any subject of interest.

Quote:

If you are getting a look at their world, wouldn't you be getting a look at what makes it tick?




Well..heres a somewhat sober(ish) yet extremely worn out and tired attempt at replying..

DMT to me seems to have the potential to take you, or allow you to perceive what seems to be..pretty deep/far out into something.  What that something actually is..is beyond me.  And although we can take guesses at what might be going on here..is there really any way to know for sure if one idea actually holds more weight than another? 

I am not sure we are really capable of getting a good focused look at whatever essence of this thing may exist, atleast from our current vantage point.  McKenna suggested that this so called dmt 'dimension' could in some sense be what is making our dimension tick.. If this is the case.. I would imagine trying to wrap your hands around the very thing that could be what makes THAT dimension tick..might leave a person with a bit of a headache.

Associating these higher dimensions strictly with the dmt experience might not be such a great idea, I think.  As you mentioned, I agree it seems possible that psilocybin aswell as other altered states of consciousness may essentially be doorways allowing one access to different angles/degrees of this information.

It's almost as if one could say we're literally imbeded in it.  Information.  Imagination.  What these compounds seem to be doing is dissolving our present expectations of what the limitations are to our reality..and I guess under the right circumstances, one may be able to completely filter out this world, and catch a temporarily glimpse of this apparent 'higher' dimension..density..or whatever one might wish to call it.

Something else about the idea that this "dimension" may be evolving..if it is. I'm not sure many evolutionary process' would be very fast paced.  It seems possible to me this place may operate outside the boundaries of time, atleast to some degree.  I'm not sure how long ago DMT was introduced to the west, but..maybe it just hasn't been long enough for any significant changes to occur?  I mean, I'd imagine it was introduced to the west no more than a couple hundred (if that) years ago.  If one were able to seek out accurate info on the use of tryptaminees thousands of years ago..perhaps then  differences in the experience would become more apparent.

I really don't know what to believe regarding most this stuff.  Though I admit, I have been leaning towards certain views over others'..but I mean, that is not to say I am not keeping myself open to most if not all possibilities.


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OfflineSpooge
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: ekomstop]
    #2685100 - 05/16/04 03:08 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Good posts everyone.  Some very good ideas.

Quote:

It seems possible to me this place may operate outside the boundaries of time, atleast to some degree.




Someone above also mentioned this.  I never thought about that.  That sounds very possible.  It could be possible that time may just be some insignificant "human" thing.

Quote:

I'm not sure how long ago DMT was introduced to the west, but..maybe it just hasn't been long enough for any significant changes to occur? 




I also haven't thought of this.  Again it comes down to what boundries of time this dimension has(if any).  Perhaps the experiences of people thousands of years ago, WERE drastically different.  But like you say, not any accurate information on this.

Well, I can't talk much more about the dmt experience until I actually experience it.  :smile:  I can only give off so many personal ideas, until I try it.  The more I experience, the more ideas I will be able to spit out.  Maybe one day I'll get lucky and come across it...if it's meant to be  :wink:  For now I'll continue to venture further with psilocybin.

Once again, very good ideas people  :heart:


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2685376 - 05/16/04 04:13 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"Or are they changing?"

well if there was a "they" i feel they would be changing but we're barely smart enough to even notice where/how they exist so data collection and collaboration is extremely difficult, making it impossible to really try and catalog evolutions in them.

but hey it sure is fascinating. keep it safe


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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Offlinegotmagog
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2685395 - 05/16/04 04:17 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

By the way, is the so called dmt dimension achieved only through smoking dmt, or oral DMT like ayahausca may also get one there?

I ask because I can easily try ayahausca, but have absolutely no idea where to obtain the smokable form.


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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2685491 - 05/16/04 04:53 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

entityexperiment said:
It could be possible that time may just be some insignificant "human" thing.





I'm not sure this is really the case.. I think time as we know it might be more of dimentional type of thing, rather than a perspective type thing (assuming thats what you were suggesting..) Our perception does affect how we experience time, of course. If I'm not mistaken, from a certain perspective time can be viewed as the 4th dimension.  I don't have a source at hand, but maybe someone can either back it up or shoot it down.  To my understanding, it basically has something to do with movement in the 3D.  If this is true, then maybe it could be suggested the experience might take place in the 5th or higher.  An interesting thing about dimensions that shouldn't be forgotten I think when considering the existance of these higher ones..is that each dimensional step up, will also contain those which preceded it.  An obvious example..a 3D object is composed of contributions from the 1st and 2nd.  4D allows interaction between them.  If this apparent trend continues up to a possible 5D..This would potentially be a dimension literally containing time/space as we know it..

I have wondered also about the multi dimensional qualities our own consciousness seems to have, especially while under the influence of psychedelics.  It's almost as if our minds are connected with these supposed higher dimensions more often than we may realize (endogenous DMT?), as if our mind/imagination/conscious energy is somehow linked to them..and apparently all it takes is some hefty boundary dissolution for a mind to cut out the material crap and find itself in a realm which may in some way be related to whatever it may have have originated from in the first place.

Just thoughts..I wouldn't take me seriously either.  :stoned:


Edited by ekomstop (05/16/04 07:39 AM)


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OfflinePositronius
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Re: Evolution of the DMT experience [Re: Spooge]
    #2685586 - 05/16/04 05:40 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

------Now, what I don't get is...if this IS another dimension and if this is some sort of other world, other entities, etc.....how come they have remained the same for so many many years? Or are they changing?(anyone feel this is happening?) To me, it's the law of the universe that things HAVE to evolve.....

So if we establish that this world, these beings, etc...are not evolving(though I'm almost positive we won't establish that many different opinions and ideas floating out there)...can they really exist? Maybe it IS all just in our mind. Perhaps past memories.-------

................

yes...there is a slight possibility that chemical-induced hallucinations are JUST products of the mind. If you are going to believe that smoking a plant lets you experience a different dimension, then you might as well believe in the Santa Claus, because both are equally improbable.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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