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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26810277 - 07/08/20 04:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The major difference imo lies in whether focus is put on controlling a physical space or the developing the human relationships that define it:





This is something that communes do very well, for the people that choose to join them.
The downside is that it doesn't seem to suit their children very well.


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OfflineStable Genius
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: polaritymind]
    #26810311 - 07/08/20 04:57 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

polaritymind said:
This is very interesting for all these people who are for full legalization of all drugs. I mean having an example where one can see that that, buying able to buy weed meth and alcohol all with the same easiness surely shows that this doesnt leads to anything desirable, or at least doesnt really fix the problems leading to addiction, misuse etc either.




:super: for the people that moved there with the intention to get into nature, get into their art, grow their own food and yes grow some weed to buy the basics so they aren't reliant on welfare, it's cool.

... but the grub element, the ones that don't give a damn about anything other than their own self gratification, that steal and manipulate and rip off honest people, that think they're smarter than everyone else because they get away with real crime, that are and always will be the problem.

Jail is exactly the place for those sort of people.
At least in jail, they have a better chance of being taught if they want to buy ciggies/soft drink/anything beyond food they need to do some work, they're taught how to handle money, taught how to read and write, taught how to cook, shown the basic skills most people take for granted that they were never shown.
Yeah they get taught how to break into cars, and gain better drug contacts but if it wasn't for doing a stretch in jail they'd have nothing.

(I've worked in a low/medium security prison as an electrician for months on end on two separate occasions)


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OfflineMach z 800
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26810796 - 07/08/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Chop or chaz was a dam joke they became every thing they stood against an then some.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Mach z 800]
    #26810894 - 07/08/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Honestly, I'm (obviously, being on this site) for the legalization of more drugs as well as local communities helping one another with things like gardens, medicine, livestock, etc...

The problem is once you get more than about 20 people in a group, without any sort of law enforcement or leadership that can enforce rules, you really can't expect people to keep their integrity intact. Humans are flawed, selfish things.

Seriously, everyone go watch this episode of south park. You'll laugh at just how much Matt and Trey captured the mentality of people who were in the CHAZ.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26810895 - 07/08/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)



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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811033 - 07/08/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Honestly, I'm (obviously, being on this site) for the legalization of more drugs as well as local communities helping one another with things like gardens, medicine, livestock, etc...

The problem is once you get more than about 20 people in a group, without any sort of law enforcement or leadership that can enforce rules, you really can't expect people to keep their integrity intact. Humans are flawed, selfish things.



So your solution is to empower a group of more than 20 people (law enforcement) to legally commit violent acts, and expect their integrity to somehow remain intact?

What makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811148 - 07/08/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Honestly, I'm (obviously, being on this site) for the legalization of more drugs as well as local communities helping one another with things like gardens, medicine, livestock, etc...

The problem is once you get more than about 20 people in a group, without any sort of law enforcement or leadership that can enforce rules, you really can't expect people to keep their integrity intact. Humans are flawed, selfish things.



So your solution is to empower a group of more than 20 people (law enforcement) to legally commit violent acts, and expect their integrity to somehow remain intact?

What makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature?




I'm rooted in realism, not idealism.

Utopia doesn't exist because we live on a planet where to survive we have to consume one another.

The "least worst" option we have is police forces.

This is already self-evident in cities whose crime has skyrocketed in areas where "Defund the police" is strongest.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811258 - 07/08/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It's not self-evident to me, and I've lived in more than one police-free zone over the years. Do you have any data that supports a correlation between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces"? Since you're rooted in realism and all.

You also neglected to answer this question: what makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature? It seems pretty idealistic to just assume authority will be inherently less flawed and selfish.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811316 - 07/08/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:: what makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature?




Checks and balances, which is what our nation was founded on.

Corruption is going to exist in any system.

Those that have studied history from beginning to end understand that war... war never changes.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811418 - 07/08/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, so undefined "checks and balances" are able to overcome our 'flawed and selfish human nature'. What would prevent an autonomous neighbourhood from implementing their own set of checks and balances?


You also neglected to answer this question: Do you have any data that supports a correlation between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces"?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811525 - 07/08/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, so undefined "checks and balances" are able to overcome our 'flawed and selfish human nature'.




No.

They can only mitigate it. And it does a better job mitigating it than virtually any other system in history aside from a benevolent monarchy, but that corrupts in usually two generations, tops.

Quote:

What would prevent an autonomous neighbourhood from implementing their own set of checks and balances?




Nothing. Small communities do it all the time with various forms of leadership. Tribes in all parts of the world do it. But ultimately you wind up with a form of "rule/law enforcement" once a group exceeds 20-30 people because leadership and rules are required once a group is large enough. Furthermore, people in the group actually have to be COMPETENT and need to have ROLES. Real ones. Productive "jobs" that go beyond "safe space coordinator." Chaz was full of a bunch of children in adult bodies who were better at smoking weed than growing actual food. They relied on the water pumping system of Seattle, the electrical grid of Seattle, the 4G of Seattle, the FOOD of Seattle, etc...

In addition to all of this, they were all essentially domestic terrorists by taking and claiming a few blocks as their own. They took all the residents and the business in the area hostage whether they wanted to be there or not and business owners, as I mentioned previous, were AFRAID to speak out against the CHAZ due to mob justice that had been acted out nationwide when a business's name went viral.

A REAL autonomous zone is actually autonomous, not hijacked land where people that don't want to be apart of it are living, not when you have to rely on someone else's water, food, electricity, plumbing, internet, etc...

CHAZ REALLY was a pathetic joke... we just let the collective, inflated, egotistical circle jerk play out so America could see how disconnected from reality these people really are. "Yeah bro, we're independent, fuck the government! Fuck the USA!" :rolleyes:

Quote:

You also neglected to answer this question: Do you have any data that supports a correlation between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces"?




I have far more relevant data as to why the movement is a complete joke in the first place if the BLM protesters care about black lives. Do you know how many black people, including children, have already been killed directly or indirectly related to the protests? in one month, more than cops have shot in 3 years. #hypocrites

Regardless, if you read the news in virtually every major city where rioting has been an issue, it's self evident that the more police have backed down in any city, regardless of "Defund the Police," the more crime has gone up.

That number of course includes the rioters breaking the law themselves, but even independent of that, over 100 people were shot and KILLED in America last weekend alone.

And furtheremore, regarding BLM, just going to slip this in here.



Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 06:44 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811665 - 07/08/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Okay, so undefined "checks and balances" are able to overcome our 'flawed and selfish human nature'.




They are not undefined. I said, quoting my self again. "Checks and balances, which is what our nation was founded on."

Either you know our history or you do not. Either way, you ought to.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811667 - 07/08/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not sure secessionist or terrorist are appropriate labels for the CHAZ. If you didn't go visit personally, what secondhand information are you basing your opinion on?

And sorry but none of that information is relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces". Were you unable to find anything actually relevant? Perhaps your opinions aren't as rooted in reality as you would like to believe.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811676 - 07/08/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure secessionist or terrorist are appropriate labels for the CHAZ.




They took land thousands of Americans were living on and running business in without their say and they defended the area with walls and guns. They would physically trash businesses that spoke out against them. This isn't a debate. It's textbook terrorism. Just because they paint flowers on the ground they are not all of a sudden the good guys.

Quote:

And sorry but none of that information is relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces".




You have not provided me with any alternative except "people can live in harmony and just not commit crime."

Given that option doesn't actually even exist in the real world, all that's left is law enforcement.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 08:38 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811684 - 07/08/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And sorry but none of that information is relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns




The murder rate in CHAZ per capita was over ten times higher than Detroit, (i actually think it was 15 times higher), let's not forget. I already said this like twice I think.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 08:45 PM)


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811699 - 07/08/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Oxford dictionary definition of terrorism:

"the unlawful (yes) use of violence and intimidation (yes), especially against civilians (super yes), in the pursuit of political aims (HELL yes)

Wow, it's CHAZ 100%


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26811773 - 07/08/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Truckers aren't going to deliver to cities without adequate police.

“As of June 13, 2020, we’ve had over 1,283 respondents and 79% say they will refuse loads to cities with disbanded or defunded police departments.”

Everything is connected, economically. Defunding the police means starving cities.

Good luck.


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OfflineMightyWhite
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26811920 - 07/09/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Police are the only thing that poor people have to protect them from criminals and these "defund police" retards want to take that away from them.

Look what's happening in New York right now
https://compstat.nypdonline.org/2e5c3f4b-85c1-4635-83c6-22b27fe7c75c/view/90

Oops, what does that say, murders are up 500% ?


Yeah, that's what it says


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: MightyWhite]
    #26811942 - 07/09/20 01:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Police are the only thing that poor people have to protect them from criminals




Yes. And who are the poorest communities who already have the highest murder rates in like EVERY DEMOCRAT CITY?

Black people.

BLM winds up defunding the police and getting even more black people killed. It's actually laughable.

The BLM movement is full of oblivious pawns working for larger agendas and they don't even realize it.



Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 01:10 AM)


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OfflineMightyWhite
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26811958 - 07/09/20 01:38 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I would make the distinction that defunding the police is laughable, not black people being murdered.

You're probably walking a thin line right now showing that data. You better tone down the racism and bigotry before you get banned


Let's talk about the real problems here,  about how violent and dangerous fascists and white supremacists are instead. You know, I read an article that the Proud Boys were driving around in vans beating people up...


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