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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP: My insights 6
#26808774 - 07/07/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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So, Seattle's "experiment" was a failure. I could have told you it would be. Not only did they manage to push the per capita murder rate ten times higher than the worst cities, but Chazistanians (ironically) adopted and integrated virtually EVERY right-wing political stance they claim to be against.
-They created borders.
-They built a wall. (It was a shitty wall, but a wall.)
-They placed armed guards next to the wall to guard its borders in order to screen who came in and out.
-They promoted OPEN CARRY OF SEMI AUTOMATICS
-They had roaming bands of their own "authority" go around with guns to enforce the rules of their "country." (Cops)
-They deported people who they felt was a threat to their nation without mercy.
-AND (this is the best one) they created racially segregated areas for different ethnicities. This last one isn't even just right-wing, it's ALT-right!
Clearly these fools have no clue what they want, nor how the world actually works. Despite claiming "open borders, fuck the wall and fuck the police," they literally DID ALL OF IT as soon as they got a little power to form their own nation.
I'm glad the idiots were allowed to run their experiment. We've all seen what fools they've made of themselves now.
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Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 10:52 AM)
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seldom seen
April Fool



Registered: 11/03/07
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
#26808787 - 07/07/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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But they had a garden.
Just kidding, idk man...I've intentionally kinda stopped paying attention, but from what I've gathered you seem pretty spot on.
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: seldom seen]
#26808791 - 07/07/20 10:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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MightyWhite

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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26808821 - 07/07/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Gardens are so bourgeois
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: MightyWhite] 2
#26808914 - 07/07/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Anyone ever been a member of a club? It doesn't matter what kind of club, lawn bowls, motorcycle, football. As soon as the club starts it's like George Orwell's Animal Farm in slow motion. Once the club gains any assets it goes into overdrive... every time, without fail.
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] 1
#26808918 - 07/07/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: Anyone ever been a member of a club? It doesn't matter what kind of club, lawn bowls, motorcycle, football. As soon as the club starts it's like George Orwell's Animal Farm in slow motion. Once the club gains any assets it goes into overdrive... every time, without fail.
Except Fight Club, but we don't talk about that...
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
#26808948 - 07/07/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Human nature never fails to disappoint. The leaders, the followers, the silent dissenters etc etc all get sorted into place without much effort.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] 3
#26809072 - 07/07/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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lol I love how absolutely scared to death the right wing folks are when people use guns to force out the government.
Isn’t that the fantasy y’all beat off to constantly? All these right wing militias and it’s a bunch of soy boys in Seattle that actually follow through
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: The Ecstatic] 4
#26809130 - 07/07/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: lol I love how absolutely scared to death the right wing folks are when people use guns to force out the government.
Isn’t that the fantasy y’all beat off to constantly? All these right wing militias and it’s a bunch of soy boys in Seattle that actually follow through 
Well that made absolutely no sense is is completely untrue.
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26809602 - 07/07/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Did anyone here actually go and visit the place? I wasn't in Seattle, but I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media. Here's some alternative insight:
To establish a cop-free zone is a show of strength, whether it lasts for a single evening or a period of years. It can dramatically expand the popular imagination: just as police abolition was unthinkable until the uprising in Minneapolis demonstrated that rioters could defeat police in open confrontation, even the most temporary autonomous zone can enable people to rethink their assumptions about policing.
At the same time, when the police are still so powerful and the ruling class that they serve is scrambling to legitimize them in the public eye, establishing a cop-free zone involves challenges and risks. In response to the sudden popularity of police abolition, the state urgently needs to create spectacles that create the impression that the abolition of policing is even more gruesome than the ongoing violence of police.
Trying to control fixed territory puts us on the defensive, making us a stationary target for white supremacists and others to attack us. These attacks can range from actual shootings, such as the one DeJuan Young described experiencing in Seattle, to the blatantly dishonest smear campaign that Fox News perpetrated against the occupation there. At the same time, police and other state actors seek to drive violence and anti-social activity into areas they don’t control in order to discredit those who inhabit them. In Greece, police have long used this tactic against ungovernable neighborhoods like Exarchia as well as autonomous zones in Greek universities.
Controlling a particular space doesn’t necessarily equip us to interrupt the processes that cause the anti-social violence that the authorities use to justify policing. The proposal to abolish the police is not a proposal to defund a particular institution, but to overhaul our entire society, abolishing the disparities that make police necessary to maintain the prevailing order. Inside an autonomous zone, we can demonstrate gift economics and other models of mutual aid, but that won’t suffice to protect the participants from the pressures of capitalism and white supremacy, which are bound to continue destabilizing our relationships until we can bring about wider social change.
This doesn’t mean we should abandon the language of “autonomy” in favor of “occupation” or “organization,” as some have argued. Rather, we need to popularize a different understanding of what autonomy is. As we understand the concept, to be autonomous is not to administer an independent juridical zone the way the state does; rather, autonomy is a question of how much leverage all the participants in an environment have over what they are able to do and experience in it. In this sense, autonomy is not a property of a defined physical space, but rather a quality of a network of relations.
Concentrating power over an autonomous zone in a single leadership or decision-making structure is a liability, not an advantage. Monopolies on power usually benefit the comparatively privileged, who are best equipped to employ frameworks of legitimacy to position themselves favorably, whereas those who are on the receiving end of racial and class disparities are often excluded even when these frameworks are supposed to empower them. If our goal is to abolish white supremacy, our top priority should be to support the voices and actions of the most disenfranchised Black, brown, and queer people, not to follow the leadership of those who already benefit from status of some kind. Likewise, too much emphasis on unity tends to restrict both tactics and long-term goals to a lowest common denominator, undercutting the diversity and unpredictability that enable movements to establish autonomous zones in the first place.
All these considerations suggest that, even if our goal is simply to hold a particular physical space, we have to prioritize carrying out offensive activities throughout society at large that can keep our adversaries on the defensive, while investing energy in the activities that nourish movements and spaces rather than focusing on defending particular boundaries. We should understand occupied spaces as an effect of our efforts, rather than as the central cause we rally around.
Other movements have already grappled with these questions in the past. We can learn a lot from the squatting movement in Europe, the Movimento sem Terra (MST) in Brazil, the Occupy movement in the US, and other examples worldwide. In the worst case, misunderstanding autonomous space as a physical territory rather than as the relationships and courage that maintain it can lead to some participants making disastrous compromises with the authorities in hopes of being permitted to retain that territory.
Finally, establishing and defending police-free zones compels us to develop a robust analysis of what policing is in order to make sure that we don’t replicate it. The extent to which we can resolve conflict ourselves in these spaces will be one of the most important factors in determining whether we can hold on to them and demonstrate a model of autonomy that deserves to become contagious. We should not confuse our ability to defend cop-free zones with being able to employ lethal force the same way that the police do. If we make this mistake, we risk reproducing the dynamics of existing systems of policing. In this regard, the first line of defense of the cop-free zone is not the violent force with which it is defended, but the ways that the participants turn care into a transformative force.
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Stable Genius
Durka durka


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#26809659 - 07/07/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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The closest I've come to an autonomous zone is Nimbin. From what I've seen, and from talking to quite a few people there over the years, shop owners, residents etc is that what started as a great idea ended up the same if not worse than most places. The open street dealing led to criminals seeing it as an easy mark. Meth is as easy to score as weed. The town is a haven for runaways and people with mental illness with no services to treat them. It's a beautiful place with a lot of the same problems as anywhere else
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Vahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] 4
#26809879 - 07/07/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
To establish a cop-free zone is a show of strength
Not when the only reason it's happening is because you're being *allowed* to by the local government. The only reason CHAZ wasn't broken up sooner was because A: The mayor was weak, (until protesters showed up on her doorstep), and B: Us civilized folk living in the real world didn't want it to come to violence and figured if we let it play out, it would destroy itself due to its intrinsic nature, which it did. Once enough damage had been done and it became justified, it was broken up.
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the state urgently needs to create spectacles that create the impression that the abolition of policing is even more gruesome than the ongoing violence of police
it's not a spectacle. Are you paying attention? Are you reading the national news in major cities? Crime in New York is at a record high by a VERY disproportionate amount and they aren't the only city. Also, did you know the rioters in Minnesota have already done 500M damage to the to state. The funniest part is now the state is begging the Fed to help. The same fed they gave two middle fingers to a month ago and allowed the rioting to happen. Now the lack of policing has caused the locals to "eat each other" as the Joker put it in the Dark Knight. AND LOCAL BLACK COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN AFFECTED THE MOST. I find the lack of awareness on the part of the rioters and the hypocrisy to be deplorable.
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Trying to control fixed territory puts us on the defensive
There was never any control, there was only the illusion of control. It would take quite an inflated ego to believe CHAZ ever had any, "control." As soon as the mayor had enough, CHAZ was done a blink of an eye. Seriously all she had to do was give the word and it was done. This is like a child thinking they have control over their parents when they lock themselves in their room.
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The proposal to abolish the police is not a proposal to defund a particular institution, but to overhaul our entire society, abolishing the disparities that make police necessary to maintain the prevailing order
There is no more effective alternative over policing. "Abolishing the disparities" is a pipe-dream. It is our job as individuals to lift one another up, not the governments. Humans need to have equality of opportunity, but equality of outcome is a cancer when everyone has a different work ethic and a different set of talents.
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the pressures of capitalism and white supremacy
We have a philosophical and political clash, here. I'm pro capitalism and I think white supremacy is ridiculous. I've seen more black people that think they are superior to white people than the other way around. Everyone has their own biases. All of our most famous athletes and musicians are black because they're better than their white counterparts. Morgan Freeman is America's favorite voice. Chris Rock, Dave Chapelle and Kevin Hart are America's best comedians. We had a black PRESIDENT for 8 years that beat two different pasty white guys. White supremacy is a bullshit excuse for non-white people to not get off their ass and do something like all these giants of men have. As Morgan Freeman ACTUALLY said, "It's a good excuse for not getting there." This is America where if you put your mind to it, you can do it.
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If our goal is to abolish white supremacy
It's not. And in the process of your rioting and destruction of public cities, black communities have been affected the most. Nobody with a rational mind is going to support what is going on with the BLM movement if they've read the news in major cities and seen what the aftermath of the protests has done. I've watched video after video of black people pissed off that their own community was destroyed by BLM protesters. The irony and hypocrisy is disgusting, to put it mildly.
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our top priority should be to support the voices and actions of the most disenfranchised Black, brown, and queer people
Our top *priority* should be to NOT create a caste system where you can earn more victim brownie points if you can check more of the "oppression" boxes. This leads to social trends called "oppression Olympics" because teenagers are stupid emotionally driven creatures who want to fit in and sees their trans black friend getting way more attention than they are.
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Finally, establishing and defending police-free zones compels us to develop a robust analysis of what policing is in order to make sure that we don’t replicate it.
But that's not what happened. There was no, "police free zone." CHAZ established an AMATEUR police force right away with semi-automatics rather than hand guns, even. Without any proper police training. Without any qualification for gun handling. Without understanding the first thing about what to do if someone is shot, themselves or another. And the murder rate with their wonderful "policing," per capita, would up being more than ten times that of even Detroit.
CHAZ failed harder than any American city has in basically all of its HISTORY at protecting their own "citizens." Even local businesses (that were essentially taken hostage), in the CHAZ stated privately to interviews (anonymously) that they were afraid to speak out against the CHAZ for fear of their business being attacked. This was a genuine fear, because we saw it happen more than once. Mob justice ruled Chaz ultimately.
Gawd, dude, did you even read my original post?
I can tell you're college educated at a liberal school, because you use a lot of big, useless vocabulary words instead of speaking in plain and simple terms (not a fan), and you link to a lot of sources (I do like that), but you seem completely disconnected from reality regarding the consequences/aftermath of CHAZ and the national rioting. I'm sure you got 100% on all your papers, though. Unfortunately, getting A's in class doesn't translate into understanding the cause-and-effect of your actions in the real world. I could have told you all of this was going to happen BEFORE it did, but most humans aren't bright enough, so they're having to watch it play out first. We're about to reach a tipping point, though. People are fed up, especially black communities, with the BLM rioting destroying their local livelihoods.
I personally find the irony to be hysterical.
Forgive me, but your perspective frustrates me because it's glossing over some glaring problems with everything CHAZ/BLM and the rioting has created.
South Park did an entire episode on this years ago actually. Yall should go watch it. (Season 9, Episode 2.)
Lastly, concerning, "White Supremacy," just gonna leave this right here...
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] 2
#26810002 - 07/07/20 10:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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I didn't speak about CHAZ directly because I wasn't there and, as I stated earlier, "I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media". Instead I provided insight towards autonomous zones in general, and much of it is criticizing those who lose sight of the bigger picture in fighting over a tiny piece of territory. I provided an actual critique of autonomous zones instead of your shallow OP that was mostly just an excuse to make fun of something you don't like.
Let me ask again: what are you basing your insight on? Did you go spend time at the CHAZ or are you basing your perspective on secondhand reports?
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26810035 - 07/07/20 11:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I didn't speak about CHAZ directly because I wasn't there and, as I stated earlier, "I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media". Instead I provided insight towards autonomous zones in general, and much of it is criticizing those who lose sight of the bigger picture in fighting over a tiny piece of territory. I provided an actual critique of autonomous zones instead of your shallow OP that was mostly just an excuse to make fun of something you don't like.
Let me ask again: what are you basing your insight on? Did you go spend time at the CHAZ or are you basing your perspective on secondhand reports?
I wouldn't go into the CHAZ if you paid me. As I already said, the murder rate was over ten times higher than Detroit. Who in their sane mind would?
I'm not interested in discussing the "general" idea of autonomous zones. Show me a successful one that isn't violating the rights of the people who live in it that aren't taken hostage and maybe we can talk.
However, if you have nothing else to say regarding the rest of the extremely valid and critical points that I've made... if you won't even agree with me these things are HUGE problems, I'm not really interested in engaging you further.
Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 11:03 PM)
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] 2
#26810049 - 07/07/20 11:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: The closest I've come to an autonomous zone is Nimbin. From what I've seen, and from talking to quite a few people there over the years, shop owners, residents etc is that what started as a great idea ended up the same if not worse than most places. The open street dealing led to criminals seeing it as an easy mark. Meth is as easy to score as weed. The town is a haven for runaways and people with mental illness with no services to treat them. It's a beautiful place with a lot of the same problems as anywhere else 
This has been similar to my experience - autonomous areas aren't immune to the wider social problems of society and often can become a magnet for the excluded (homeless, addicts, mentally ill) because they offer a haven from the status quo.
But in my experience the response to this has not been static. The Greek migrant squats have been able to receive both Greek citizens and refugees from Syria, and undoubtedly have provided conditions better than offered by local government. Meanwhile my Occupy encampment had their own pseudo police within weeks.
The major difference imo lies in whether focus is put on controlling a physical space or the developing the human relationships that define it:
to be autonomous is not to administer an independent juridical zone the way the state does; rather, autonomy is a question of how much leverage all the participants in an environment have over what they are able to do and experience in it. In this sense, autonomy is not a property of a defined physical space, but rather a quality of a network of relations. Even if our goal is simply to hold a particular physical space, we have to prioritize carrying out offensive activities throughout society at large that can keep our adversaries on the defensive, while investing energy in the activities that nourish movements and spaces rather than focusing on defending particular boundaries. We should understand occupied spaces as an effect of our efforts, rather than as the central cause we rally around.
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Vahn421
Awakening Moonlighter



Registered: 04/03/12
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom] 1
#26810086 - 07/07/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
We should understand occupied spaces as an effect of our efforts, rather than as the central cause we rally around.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26810145 - 07/08/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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In this sense, autonomy is not a property of a defined physical space, but rather a quality of a network of relations. If you seek to occupy a defined space before building this prerequisite community network, it's highly unlikely it will be sustainable because defending the space will inevitably take precedence over necessary community building. But if you first put the effort into building the network of relations required to support an occupied space, we can expect a much more sustainable version to organically form.
You don't make a police few zone simply by pushing out the cops - you establish a community network of solidarity and mutual aid, and police free zones will be one of the results.
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MightyWhite

Registered: 08/27/08
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
#26810225 - 07/08/20 03:12 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said: I didn't speak about CHAZ directly because I wasn't there and, as I stated earlier, "I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media". Instead I provided insight towards autonomous zones in general, and much of it is criticizing those who lose sight of the bigger picture in fighting over a tiny piece of territory. I provided an actual critique of autonomous zones instead of your shallow OP that was mostly just an excuse to make fun of something you don't like.
Let me ask again: what are you basing your insight on? Did you go spend time at the CHAZ or are you basing your perspective on secondhand reports?
I wouldn't go into the CHAZ if you paid me. As I already said, the murder rate was over ten times higher than Detroit. Who in their sane mind would?
I'm not interested in discussing the "general" idea of autonomous zones. Show me a successful one that isn't violating the rights of the people who live in it that aren't taken hostage and maybe we can talk.
However, if you have nothing else to say regarding the rest of the extremely valid and critical points that I've made... if you won't even agree with me these things are HUGE problems, I'm not really interested in engaging you further.
Sheva likes to talk in circles, good luck lol But the CHOP zone was peaceful, it's the summer of love. Don't you know?
The murders and violence were perpetrated by white supremacists, the Proud Boys were seen driving around in vans, they were the ones commiting all the crime. I read an article about it, it's true.
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polaritymind
relaxed attention


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] 1
#26810236 - 07/08/20 03:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vahn421 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: lol I love how absolutely scared to death the right wing folks are when people use guns to force out the government.
Isn’t that the fantasy y’all beat off to constantly? All these right wing militias and it’s a bunch of soy boys in Seattle that actually follow through 
Well that made absolutely no sense is is completely untrue.
Why, sounds plausible to me?
-------------------- "to affirm life is to also affirm death" -Albert hofmann
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polaritymind
relaxed attention


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: polaritymind]
#26810237 - 07/08/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stable Genius said: The closest I've come to an autonomous zone is Nimbin. From what I've seen, and from talking to quite a few people there over the years, shop owners, residents etc is that what started as a great idea ended up the same if not worse than most places. The open street dealing led to criminals seeing it as an easy mark. Meth is as easy to score as weed. The town is a haven for runaways and people with mental illness with no services to treat them. It's a beautiful place with a lot of the same problems as anywhere else
This is very interesting for all these people who are for full legalization of all drugs. I mean having an example where one can see that that, buying able to buy weed meth and alcohol all with the same easiness surely shows that this doesnt leads to anything desirable, or at least doesnt really fix the problems leading to addiction, misuse etc either.
-------------------- "to affirm life is to also affirm death" -Albert hofmann
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