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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Capitalism
    #26809540 - 07/07/20 05:34 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

In capitalism, entrepreneurship is the highest good.

If a system’s values are centered around something so crass and meaningless as entrepreneurship, that system is, despite its monetary gains, a very, very poor one.

That’s just imo.

The whole premise of defending capitalist societies is that, well, maybe it’s not so great, but it’s the best thing humans have come up with so far. First of all, humans didn’t come up with it. It evolved in Europe over hundreds of years, being formed out of feudalist economies between the 13th and 16th centuries (which then led to the Industrial Revolution, further transforming it). Many lifetimes and millions of individuals don’t “come up” with things. Secondly, there are a number of societies in the anthropological record whose inequities and inequalities were not nearly as sharp as they are in modern capitalism. We just don’t have access to their circumstances today.

So what would you say? Is there an alternative in today’s world? Even the more socialist societies of Europe are essentially capitalist, although I would say in a much more civilized way. Is their model a good one?

Can we expect radical change? My thinking is no, we can’t. So it might be nice if we got our shit together and created a somewhat more equitable society, and perhaps one that does not elect Trumps to political office. I’m not holding my breath.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Capitalism [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26809553 - 07/07/20 05:45 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

did they not trade at markets in china and india
the whole silk road thing is about trade
is trade not the rudiment of capitalism

make or grow or catch stuff and bring it to market and sell it.

it's fundamental

probably goes back before writing.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Capitalism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26809572 - 07/07/20 05:53 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Definitely before writing. 

China’s got it.  Even N. Korea has open trading markets.

For real change to occur it will likely take place incrementally and very slowly - over a long period of time.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Capitalism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26809574 - 07/07/20 05:56 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

But with capitalism, you have those with enough capital to invest in certain businesses. If their investment is a good one, they have no responsibility to anyone -- their own employees, society, the government, the poor -- to compensate them at all, for any reason. Publicly traded companies become a thing, so you get people who hoard stock, or manipulate markets, arbitrage, what have you -- the little guy, and really the middle guy, never see any of this. And the act of making as much money as possible, and ruthlessly outperforming your competitors, become good things.

The logical outcome of such a system is what we have today: a tiny plutocracy with more money than several small nations. And everyone else to pick up the crumbs, and the system is failing.

So capitalism is not simply synonymous with the word "trade." It is in fact far more ultra-materialistic than almost every economic system to come before it. Communism would be the one exception.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Capitalism [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26809898 - 07/07/20 08:50 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

rapacious behavior in the capitalist framework has to be walled off legally.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Capitalism [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26809909 - 07/07/20 08:56 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

We can make the Mexicans pay for it.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Capitalism [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26809929 - 07/07/20 09:12 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

If anyone really gets into the topic they may end up researching:

slavery, colonialism
consumerism
invention of Department stores, shopping centers, then malls
franchises
when production out paced population
corporations as legal entities
corporate ownership of the media
the invention of credit
planned obsolescence
Patenting of life
bankruptcy law
mass production, factories, assembly line, Henry Ford, automation
branding,  brand awareness

A good place to start: This shit didn't just happen -- some of it was very deliberate:
the inventor of public relations: Edward Bernays (Freud’s Nephew)
& responsible for convincing women to smoke, in one media event ! ! !
his books are available free on the web & good documentaries about him are on Youtube


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Capitalism [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #26809988 - 07/07/20 10:26 PM (1 month, 7 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
....Can we expect radical change? My thinking is no, we can’t......




What is the latest? perhaps prisons for profit, or their privatization?
Non stick cookware that is known to be toxic, for sale?
The same chemical is used on 'glide' dental floss that goes in the mouth.
How about 'spent' uranium bullets & agent orange to poison the troops, we supposedly honor?
The list of self sabotaging, short sighted, corrupt, & greedy endeavors has finally culminated in acid oceans, climate change, pollution, Fuckashima, Chernobyl, & un-preparedness for pandemics, while fostering virus evolution in wet markets, factory farms, and bushmeat.
We already had oil spills, multiple continuous wars, cyber war, nuclear stockpiles, genocide, militarization of space, monster camps for displaced persons in Africa, an off and on ozone hole, urbanization of populations together with monster slums in India & Brazil, silly contradictory religions, poor education, over use of pesticides, and organized crime, & human trafficking & a huge extinction event for wildlife & antibiotic resistant bacteria in hospitals, covid-19, & fools disobeying sensible protocols ....

So yes you are correct, it is no longer fixable...if it ever was.

And yes this partial list addresses none of the deeper causes, that Buddhism, yoga, psychology, and shamanism/psychedelics may attempt to address -- but which they have never addressed in a way that made possible long term profound change for an ever growing number of people to a degree that enabled positive change on a societal level.

So since the fuckups are now starting to interact and reinforce each other in unpredictable ways, (methane, etc.) and the deep causes cannot be effectively addressed, the only conclusion we can draw is that the history of all empires falling, is about to repeat, & as at this point all nations are interdependent, in multiple ways, there maybe no escape. Already they say there may be plastic in us all.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nano+plastic+in+us+all&t=hk&ia=web
scroll down, then  click more results, for the 'better' results


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Capitalism [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26811332 - 07/08/20 04:57 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Indeed, the problems are so complex, widespread and interlocking that, as you have pointed out, all this cannot possibly end well. And it probably won't take too long. This pandemic has exposed a lot of weaknesses inherent in the very core of modern civilization, and as you have pointed out, along with environmental devastation, catastrophic warming of the air and water, acidifying oceans, plastic pollution, etc., etc., etc., we are 100% in for a bumpy ride this century.

And there will probably be more pandemics!

Having a socioeconomic system that is exploitative, ultramaterialistic, inequitable and malfunctioning badly is about the very last thing we need in trying to deal with such complexity. The economic damage alone from this pandemic is going to reverberate for a decade. But, buckle up, there's no turning back, and no other road to turn into, at this point.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Capitalism [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #26811346 - 07/08/20 05:05 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
....Can we expect radical change? My thinking is no, we can’t......




What is the latest? perhaps prisons for profit, or their privatization?
Non stick cookware that is known to be toxic, for sale?
The same chemical is used on 'glide' dental floss that goes in the mouth.
How about 'spent' uranium bullets & agent orange to poison the troops, we supposedly honor?
The list of self sabotaging, short sighted, corrupt, & greedy endeavors has finally culminated in acid oceans, climate change, pollution, Fuckashima, Chernobyl, & un-preparedness for pandemics, while fostering virus evolution in wet markets, factory farms, and bushmeat.
We already had oil spills, multiple continuous wars, cyber war, nuclear stockpiles, genocide, militarization of space, monster camps for displaced persons in Africa, an off and on ozone hole, urbanization of populations together with monster slums in India & Brazil, silly contradictory religions, poor education, over use of pesticides, and organized crime, & human trafficking & a huge extinction event for wildlife & antibiotic resistant bacteria in hospitals, covid-19, & fools disobeying sensible protocols ....

So yes you are correct, it is no longer fixable...if it ever was.

And yes this partial list addresses none of the deeper causes, that Buddhism, yoga, psychology, and shamanism/psychedelics may attempt to address -- but which they have never addressed in a way that made possible long term profound change for an ever growing number of people to a degree that enabled positive change on a societal level.

So since the fuckups are now starting to interact and reinforce each other in unpredictable ways, (methane, etc.) and the deep causes cannot be effectively addressed, the only conclusion we can draw is that the history of all empires falling, is about to repeat, & as at this point all nations are interdependent, in multiple ways, there maybe no escape. Already they say there may be plastic in us all.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=nano+plastic+in+us+all&t=hk&ia=web
scroll down, then  click more results, for the 'better' results




"Thanks LD, now here's Jim with the weather"


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Capitalism [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26811352 - 07/08/20 05:09 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
In capitalism, entrepreneurship is the highest good.

If a system’s values are centered around something so crass and meaningless as entrepreneurship, that system is, despite its monetary gains, a very, very poor one.

That’s just imo.

The whole premise of defending capitalist societies is that, well, maybe it’s not so great, but it’s the best thing humans have come up with so far. First of all, humans didn’t come up with it. It evolved in Europe over hundreds of years, being formed out of feudalist economies between the 13th and 16th centuries (which then led to the Industrial Revolution, further transforming it). Many lifetimes and millions of individuals don’t “come up” with things. Secondly, there are a number of societies in the anthropological record whose inequities and inequalities were not nearly as sharp as they are in modern capitalism. We just don’t have access to their circumstances today.

So what would you say? Is there an alternative in today’s world? Even the more socialist societies of Europe are essentially capitalist, although I would say in a much more civilized way. Is their model a good one?

Can we expect radical change? My thinking is no, we can’t. So it might be nice if we got our shit together and created a somewhat more equitable society, and perhaps one that does not elect Trumps to political office. I’m not holding my breath.




Once the fires have stopped and the rain comes there will be life.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: Capitalism [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #26811880 - 07/08/20 11:48 PM (1 month, 6 days ago)

Capitalism > Socialism > Crony Capitalism > Crony Socialism


The problem with blaming capitalism is that it isn't capitalism that is the source of most of the problems we experience IN capitalism, it's human nature.

Any other system winds up being even worse. Our current capitalist system isn't utopia, it's simply one of the "least worst" models we can come up with, given the nature of humans being liars, cheats and murderers.

The general premise of socialism conveniently omits that these traits exist in all humans.

If we swapped to a socialist system, all the cronies just migrate from "big business" to, "big government." You haven't fixed anything, you've just let them monopolize their power in one place with ZERO checks and balances.

I'll take crony businesses competing over one centralized crony government, thanks.

ETA: Of course we should try to fix the system and weed out the cronies, but we can't be blind-sighted as to where the problem is actually coming from.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 11:50 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Capitalism [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812079 - 07/09/20 04:49 AM (1 month, 6 days ago)

agreed though I would reorder after refining immunity from crony-re-infection.

socialism > capitalism > crony capitalism > crony socialism

socialism just expands the value of human protection already provided by military + police + transportation + sewage/water treatment + courts, to properly include  medical + education + housing + food.

Not having a good solution to social security around medical + education + housing + food is a real deficit in modern capitalist society.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Capitalism [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812354 - 07/09/20 08:35 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
....The problem with blaming capitalism is that it isn't capitalism that is the source of most of the problems we experience IN capitalism, it's human nature.




"this was already stated above : "And yes this partial list addresses none of the deeper causes, that Buddhism, yoga, psychology, and shamanism/psychedelics may attempt to address -- but which they have never addressed in a way that made possible long term profound change for an ever growing number of people to a degree that enabled positive change on a societal level."

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Any other system winds up being even worse. .... Of course we should try to fix the system and weed out the cronies, but we can't be blind-sighted as to where the problem is actually coming from.




again this is theoretical as the phrase "we should try to fix" indicates. Its just a repeat of the mentality that the fable "Belling the Cat" addresses ie. its simply denial masquerading as relevance.

This is what DQ & I are pointing out. (1) all empires fall  (2) this time around for all practical purposes (currently mainly climate change & virus transmission) there is only one human empire (3) the enormous list of other problems + the deep corruption in all governments (both capitalist/corporate/industrial and dictatorships and among constantly waring states in Africa and chaotic states like Venezuela, Libya, Somalia)+ the deep causes being unaddressed make, any idea of any solutions to the downward trend as regards quality of life for the vast majority of humans a total fantasy. And once the technological base and infra structure go, even the very rich (insulated though they may be), will find their lives changed for the worse.


--------------------
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” or  “Science advances one funeral at a time.”
― Max Planck

"The situation is hopeless, but not serious."

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend,
inside of a dog its too dark to read."


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Capitalism [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812364 - 07/09/20 08:44 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

laughingdog covered it just fine. I am just bringing up capitalism for some conversation. Though the European welfare states are certainly not without their major problems, this is not really the point. Capitalism, socialism, communism -- these are not fundamentals. Our major problems as a global civilization go much deeper than political or economic structures. As ld pointed out, various suggestions of "solutions" involving social or political factors are too little, too late, by any reasonable consideration.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Capitalism [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #26812420 - 07/09/20 09:22 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Since all empires fall,
let us build not an empire but an elastic security coalition to promote wellness and wisdom in the world; a safety net that helps us rebound as we fall.

empires are meaningless. roads and cities, universities and healthcare are meaningful additions to food and shelter.


--------------------


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Capitalism [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26813250 - 07/09/20 04:25 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

The competition narrative is powerful.

It becomes hard to organise a game if you cant get then to spilt into teams.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.


Edited by pineninja (07/09/20 04:25 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Capitalism [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26813788 - 07/09/20 08:56 PM (1 month, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Capitalism > Socialism > Crony Capitalism > Crony Socialism


The problem with blaming capitalism is that it isn't capitalism that is the source of most of the problems we experience IN capitalism, it's human nature.

Any other system winds up being even worse. Our current capitalist system isn't utopia, it's simply one of the "least worst" models we can come up with, given the nature of humans being liars, cheats and murderers.

The general premise of socialism conveniently omits that these traits exist in all humans.

If we swapped to a socialist system, all the cronies just migrate from "big business" to, "big government." You haven't fixed anything, you've just let them monopolize their power in one place with ZERO checks and balances.

I'll take crony businesses competing over one centralized crony government, thanks.

ETA: Of course we should try to fix the system and weed out the cronies, but we can't be blind-sighted as to where the problem is actually coming from.




Crony capitalism is controlled by one centralized government and it's exactly what the US is today. It's called privatizing the gains and socializing the losses. This is why income and wealth inequality is near a 100 year high today. This isn't a good situation at all.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Capitalism [Re: qman]
    #26814185 - 07/10/20 02:47 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

One central government is a ruse by front.
The comtrollers are now diffuse enough to be invisible.

The independent government that you speak of was once bailed out and is now forever indebted.


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OfflineThe Blind Ass
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Re: Capitalism [Re: pineninja]
    #26814231 - 07/10/20 03:58 AM (1 month, 5 days ago)

my government is full of losers :crankey:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps - or -  give me death caps


Edited by The Blind Ass (07/10/20 04:08 AM)


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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