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OfflineVahn421
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The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP: My insights * 6
    #26808774 - 07/07/20 10:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So, Seattle's "experiment" was a failure. I could have told you it would be. Not only did they manage to push the per capita murder rate ten times higher than the worst cities, but Chazistanians (ironically) adopted and integrated virtually EVERY right-wing political stance they claim to be against.


-They created borders.

-They built a wall. (It was a shitty wall, but a wall.)

-They placed armed guards next to the wall to guard its borders in order to screen who came in and out.

-They promoted OPEN CARRY OF SEMI AUTOMATICS

-They had roaming bands of their own "authority" go around with guns to enforce the rules of their "country." (Cops)

-They deported people who they felt was a threat to their nation without mercy.

-AND (this is the best one) they created racially segregated areas for different ethnicities. This last one isn't even just right-wing, it's ALT-right!


Clearly these fools have no clue what they want, nor how the world actually works. Despite claiming "open borders, fuck the wall and fuck the police," they literally DID ALL OF IT as soon as they got a little power to form their own nation.

I'm glad the idiots were allowed to run their experiment. We've all seen what fools they've made of themselves now.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 10:52 AM)


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Invisibleseldom seen
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26808787 - 07/07/20 10:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

But they had a garden.


Just kidding, idk man...I've intentionally kinda stopped paying attention, but from what I've gathered you seem pretty spot on.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: seldom seen]
    #26808791 - 07/07/20 10:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)






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OfflineMightyWhite
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26808821 - 07/07/20 11:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Gardens are so bourgeois


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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: MightyWhite] * 2
    #26808914 - 07/07/20 11:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Anyone ever been a member of a club? It doesn't matter what kind of club, lawn
bowls, motorcycle, football.
As soon as the club starts it's like George Orwell's Animal Farm in slow
motion.
Once the club gains any assets it goes into overdrive... every time, without fail.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #26808918 - 07/07/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Anyone ever been a member of a club? It doesn't matter what kind of club, lawn
bowls, motorcycle, football.
As soon as the club starts it's like George Orwell's Animal Farm in slow
motion.
Once the club gains any assets it goes into overdrive... every time, without fail.




Except Fight Club, but we don't talk about that...


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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26808948 - 07/07/20 12:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Human nature never fails to disappoint. The leaders, the followers, the silent dissenters etc etc all get sorted into place without much effort.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] * 3
    #26809072 - 07/07/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

lol I love how absolutely scared to death the right wing folks are when people use guns to force out the government.

Isn’t that the fantasy y’all beat off to constantly? All these right wing militias and it’s a bunch of soy boys in Seattle that actually follow through :lmafo:


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 4
    #26809130 - 07/07/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
lol I love how absolutely scared to death the right wing folks are when people use guns to force out the government.

Isn’t that the fantasy y’all beat off to constantly? All these right wing militias and it’s a bunch of soy boys in Seattle that actually follow through :lmafo:




Well that made absolutely no sense is is completely untrue.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26809602 - 07/07/20 06:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Did anyone here actually go and visit the place? I wasn't in Seattle, but I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media. Here's some alternative insight:

To establish a cop-free zone is a show of strength, whether it lasts for a single evening or a period of years. It can dramatically expand the popular imagination: just as police abolition was unthinkable until the uprising in Minneapolis demonstrated that rioters could defeat police in open confrontation, even the most temporary autonomous zone can enable people to rethink their assumptions about policing.

At the same time, when the police are still so powerful and the ruling class that they serve is scrambling to legitimize them in the public eye, establishing a cop-free zone involves challenges and risks. In response to the sudden popularity of police abolition, the state urgently needs to create spectacles that create the impression that the abolition of policing is even more gruesome than the ongoing violence of police.

Trying to control fixed territory puts us on the defensive, making us a stationary target for white supremacists and others to attack us. These attacks can range from actual shootings, such as the one DeJuan Young described experiencing in Seattle, to the blatantly dishonest smear campaign that Fox News perpetrated against the occupation there. At the same time, police and other state actors seek to drive violence and anti-social activity into areas they don’t control in order to discredit those who inhabit them. In Greece, police have long used this tactic against ungovernable neighborhoods like Exarchia as well as autonomous zones in Greek universities.

Controlling a particular space doesn’t necessarily equip us to interrupt the processes that cause the anti-social violence that the authorities use to justify policing. The proposal to abolish the police is not a proposal to defund a particular institution, but to overhaul our entire society, abolishing the disparities that make police necessary to maintain the prevailing order. Inside an autonomous zone, we can demonstrate gift economics and other models of mutual aid, but that won’t suffice to protect the participants from the pressures of capitalism and white supremacy, which are bound to continue destabilizing our relationships until we can bring about wider social change.

This doesn’t mean we should abandon the language of “autonomy” in favor of “occupation” or “organization,” as some have argued. Rather, we need to popularize a different understanding of what autonomy is. As we understand the concept, to be autonomous is not to administer an independent juridical zone the way the state does; rather, autonomy is a question of how much leverage all the participants in an environment have over what they are able to do and experience in it. In this sense, autonomy is not a property of a defined physical space, but rather a quality of a network of relations.

Concentrating power over an autonomous zone in a single leadership or decision-making structure is a liability, not an advantage. Monopolies on power usually benefit the comparatively privileged, who are best equipped to employ frameworks of legitimacy to position themselves favorably, whereas those who are on the receiving end of racial and class disparities are often excluded even when these frameworks are supposed to empower them. If our goal is to abolish white supremacy, our top priority should be to support the voices and actions of the most disenfranchised Black, brown, and queer people, not to follow the leadership of those who already benefit from status of some kind. Likewise, too much emphasis on unity tends to restrict both tactics and long-term goals to a lowest common denominator, undercutting the diversity and unpredictability that enable movements to establish autonomous zones in the first place.

All these considerations suggest that, even if our goal is simply to hold a particular physical space, we have to prioritize carrying out offensive activities throughout society at large that can keep our adversaries on the defensive, while investing energy in the activities that nourish movements and spaces rather than focusing on defending particular boundaries. We should understand occupied spaces as an effect of our efforts, rather than as the central cause we rally around.

Other movements have already grappled with these questions in the past. We can learn a lot from the squatting movement in Europe, the Movimento sem Terra (MST) in Brazil, the Occupy movement in the US, and other examples worldwide. In the worst case, misunderstanding autonomous space as a physical territory rather than as the relationships and courage that maintain it can lead to some participants making disastrous compromises with the authorities in hopes of being permitted to retain that territory.

Finally, establishing and defending police-free zones compels us to develop a robust analysis of what policing is in order to make sure that we don’t replicate it. The extent to which we can resolve conflict ourselves in these spaces will be one of the most important factors in determining whether we can hold on to them and demonstrate a model of autonomy that deserves to become contagious. We should not confuse our ability to defend cop-free zones with being able to employ lethal force the same way that the police do. If we make this mistake, we risk reproducing the dynamics of existing systems of policing. In this regard, the first line of defense of the cop-free zone is not the violent force with which it is defended, but the ways that the participants turn care into a transformative force.


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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26809659 - 07/07/20 06:39 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The closest I've come to an autonomous zone is Nimbin.
From what I've seen, and from talking to quite a few people there over the years, shop owners, residents etc is that what started as a great idea ended up the same if not worse than most places.
The open street dealing led to criminals seeing it as an easy mark. Meth is as easy to score as weed.
The town is a haven for runaways and people with mental illness with no services to treat them.
It's a beautiful place with a lot of the same problems as anywhere else :shrug:


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] * 4
    #26809879 - 07/07/20 08:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

To establish a cop-free zone is a show of strength




Not when the only reason it's happening is because you're being *allowed* to by the local government. The only reason CHAZ wasn't broken up sooner was because A: The mayor was weak, (until protesters showed up on her doorstep), and B: Us civilized folk living in the real world didn't want it to come to violence and figured if we let it play out, it would destroy itself due to its intrinsic nature, which it did. Once enough damage had been done and it became justified, it was broken up.

Quote:

the state urgently needs to create spectacles that create the impression that the abolition of policing is even more gruesome than the ongoing violence of police




it's not a spectacle. Are you paying attention? Are you reading the national news in major cities? Crime in New York is at a record high by a VERY disproportionate amount and they aren't the only city. Also, did you know the rioters in Minnesota have already done 500M damage to the to state. The funniest part is now the state is begging the Fed to help. The same fed they gave two middle fingers to a month ago and allowed the rioting to happen. Now the lack of policing has caused the locals to "eat each other" as the Joker put it in the Dark Knight. AND LOCAL BLACK COMMUNITIES HAVE BEEN AFFECTED THE MOST. I find the lack of awareness on the part of the rioters and the hypocrisy to be deplorable.

Quote:

Trying to control fixed territory puts us on the defensive




There was never any control, there was only the illusion of control.  It would take quite an inflated ego to believe CHAZ ever had any, "control." As soon as the mayor had enough, CHAZ was done a blink of an eye. Seriously all she had to do was give the word and it was done. This is like a child thinking they have control over their parents when they lock themselves in their room.

Quote:

The proposal to abolish the police is not a proposal to defund a particular institution, but to overhaul our entire society, abolishing the disparities that make police necessary to maintain the prevailing order




There is no more effective alternative over policing. "Abolishing the disparities" is a pipe-dream. It is our job as individuals to lift one another up, not the governments. Humans need to have equality of opportunity, but equality of outcome is a cancer when everyone has a different work ethic and a different set of talents.

Quote:

the pressures of capitalism and white supremacy




We have a philosophical and political clash, here. I'm pro capitalism and I think white supremacy is ridiculous. I've seen more black people that think they are superior to white people than the other way around. Everyone has their own biases. All of our most famous athletes and musicians are black because they're better than their white counterparts. Morgan Freeman is America's favorite voice. Chris Rock, Dave Chapelle and Kevin Hart are America's best comedians. We had a black PRESIDENT for 8 years that beat two different pasty white guys. White supremacy is a bullshit excuse for non-white people to not get off their ass and do something like all these giants of men have. As Morgan Freeman ACTUALLY said, "It's a good excuse for not getting there." This is America where if you put your mind to it, you can do it.

Quote:

If our goal is to abolish white supremacy




It's not. And in the process of your rioting and destruction of public cities, black communities have been affected the most. Nobody with a rational mind is going to support what is going on with the BLM movement if they've read the news in major cities and seen what the aftermath of the protests has done. I've watched video after video of black people pissed off that their own community was destroyed by BLM protesters. The irony and hypocrisy is disgusting, to put it mildly.

Quote:

our top priority should be to support the voices and actions of the most disenfranchised Black, brown, and queer people




Our top *priority* should be to NOT create a caste system where you can earn more victim brownie points if you can check more of the "oppression" boxes. This leads to social trends called "oppression Olympics" because teenagers are stupid emotionally driven creatures who want to fit in and sees their trans black friend getting way more attention than they are.


Quote:

Finally, establishing and defending police-free zones compels us to develop a robust analysis of what policing is in order to make sure that we don’t replicate it.




But that's not what happened. There was no, "police free zone." CHAZ established an AMATEUR police force right away with semi-automatics rather than hand guns, even. Without any proper police training. Without any qualification for gun handling. Without understanding the first thing about what to do if someone is shot, themselves or another. And the murder rate with their wonderful "policing," per capita, would up being more than ten times that of even Detroit.

CHAZ failed harder than any American city has in basically all of its HISTORY at protecting their own "citizens." Even local businesses (that were essentially taken hostage), in the CHAZ stated privately to interviews (anonymously) that they were afraid to speak out against the CHAZ for fear of their business being attacked. This was a genuine fear, because we saw it happen more than once. Mob justice ruled Chaz ultimately.

Gawd, dude, did you even read my original post?

I can tell you're college educated at a liberal school, because you use a lot of big, useless vocabulary words instead of speaking in plain and simple terms (not a fan), and you link to a lot of sources (I do like that), but you seem completely disconnected from reality regarding the consequences/aftermath of CHAZ and the national rioting. I'm sure you got 100% on all your papers, though. Unfortunately, getting A's in class doesn't translate into understanding the cause-and-effect of your actions in the real world. I could have told you all of this was going to happen BEFORE it did, but most humans aren't bright enough, so they're having to watch it play out first. We're about to reach a tipping point, though. People are fed up, especially black communities, with the BLM rioting destroying their local livelihoods.

I personally find the irony to be hysterical.

Forgive me, but your perspective frustrates me because it's glossing over some glaring problems with everything CHAZ/BLM and the rioting has created.

South Park did an entire episode on this years ago actually. Yall should go watch it. (Season 9, Episode 2.)

Lastly, concerning, "White Supremacy," just gonna leave this right here...



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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26810002 - 07/07/20 10:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I didn't speak about CHAZ directly because I wasn't there and, as I stated earlier, "I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media". Instead I provided insight towards autonomous zones in general, and much of it is criticizing those who lose sight of the bigger picture in fighting over a tiny piece of territory. I provided an actual critique of autonomous zones instead of your shallow OP that was mostly just an excuse to make fun of something you don't like.

Let me ask again: what are you basing your insight on? Did you go spend time at the CHAZ or are you basing your perspective on secondhand reports?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26810035 - 07/07/20 11:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I didn't speak about CHAZ directly because I wasn't there and, as I stated earlier, "I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media". Instead I provided insight towards autonomous zones in general, and much of it is criticizing those who lose sight of the bigger picture in fighting over a tiny piece of territory. I provided an actual critique of autonomous zones instead of your shallow OP that was mostly just an excuse to make fun of something you don't like.

Let me ask again: what are you basing your insight on? Did you go spend time at the CHAZ or are you basing your perspective on secondhand reports?




I wouldn't go into the CHAZ if you paid me. As I already said, the murder rate was over ten times higher than Detroit. Who in their sane mind would?

I'm not interested in discussing the "general" idea of autonomous zones. Show me a successful one that isn't violating the rights of the people who live in it that aren't taken hostage and maybe we can talk.

However, if you have nothing else to say regarding the rest of the extremely valid and critical points that I've made... if you won't even agree with me these things are HUGE problems, I'm not really interested in engaging you further.


Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 11:03 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius] * 2
    #26810049 - 07/07/20 11:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
The closest I've come to an autonomous zone is Nimbin.
From what I've seen, and from talking to quite a few people there over the years, shop owners, residents etc is that what started as a great idea ended up the same if not worse than most places.
The open street dealing led to criminals seeing it as an easy mark. Meth is as easy to score as weed.
The town is a haven for runaways and people with mental illness with no services to treat them.
It's a beautiful place with a lot of the same problems as anywhere else :shrug:



This has been similar to my experience - autonomous areas aren't immune to the wider social problems of society and often can become a magnet for the excluded (homeless, addicts, mentally ill) because they offer a haven from the status quo.

But in my experience the response to this has not been static. The Greek migrant squats have been able to receive both Greek citizens and refugees from Syria, and undoubtedly have provided conditions better than offered by local government. Meanwhile my Occupy encampment had their own pseudo police within weeks.

The major difference imo lies in whether focus is put on controlling a physical space or the developing the human relationships that define it:

to be autonomous is not to administer an independent juridical zone the way the state does; rather, autonomy is a question of how much leverage all the participants in an environment have over what they are able to do and experience in it. In this sense, autonomy is not a property of a defined physical space, but rather a quality of a network of relations. Even if our goal is simply to hold a particular physical space, we have to prioritize carrying out offensive activities throughout society at large that can keep our adversaries on the defensive, while investing energy in the activities that nourish movements and spaces rather than focusing on defending particular boundaries. We should understand occupied spaces as an effect of our efforts, rather than as the central cause we rally around.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26810086 - 07/07/20 11:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

We should understand occupied spaces as an effect of our efforts, rather than as the central cause we rally around.






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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26810145 - 07/08/20 01:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

In this sense, autonomy is not a property of a defined physical space, but rather a quality of a network of relations. If you seek to occupy a defined space before building this prerequisite community network, it's highly unlikely it will be sustainable because defending the space will inevitably take precedence over necessary community building. But if you first put the effort into building the network of relations required to support an occupied space, we can expect a much more sustainable version to organically form.

You don't make a police few zone simply by pushing out the cops - you establish a community network of solidarity and mutual aid, and police free zones will be one of the results.


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OfflineMightyWhite
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26810225 - 07/08/20 03:12 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I didn't speak about CHAZ directly because I wasn't there and, as I stated earlier, "I've participated in autonomous zones elsewhere in the past and never have I seen them accurately depicted in any media". Instead I provided insight towards autonomous zones in general, and much of it is criticizing those who lose sight of the bigger picture in fighting over a tiny piece of territory. I provided an actual critique of autonomous zones instead of your shallow OP that was mostly just an excuse to make fun of something you don't like.

Let me ask again: what are you basing your insight on? Did you go spend time at the CHAZ or are you basing your perspective on secondhand reports?




I wouldn't go into the CHAZ if you paid me. As I already said, the murder rate was over ten times higher than Detroit. Who in their sane mind would?

I'm not interested in discussing the "general" idea of autonomous zones. Show me a successful one that isn't violating the rights of the people who live in it that aren't taken hostage and maybe we can talk.

However, if you have nothing else to say regarding the rest of the extremely valid and critical points that I've made... if you won't even agree with me these things are HUGE problems, I'm not really interested in engaging you further.





Sheva likes to talk in circles, good luck lol
But the CHOP zone was peaceful, it's the summer of love. Don't you know?

The murders and violence were perpetrated by white supremacists, the Proud Boys were seen driving around in vans, they were the ones commiting all the crime. I read an article about it, it's true.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26810236 - 07/08/20 03:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
lol I love how absolutely scared to death the right wing folks are when people use guns to force out the government.

Isn’t that the fantasy y’all beat off to constantly? All these right wing militias and it’s a bunch of soy boys in Seattle that actually follow through :lmafo:




Well that made absolutely no sense is is completely untrue.




Why, sounds plausible to me?


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: polaritymind]
    #26810237 - 07/08/20 03:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
The closest I've come to an autonomous zone is Nimbin.
From what I've seen, and from talking to quite a few people there over the years, shop owners, residents etc is that what started as a great idea ended up the same if not worse than most places.
The open street dealing led to criminals seeing it as an easy mark. Meth is as easy to score as weed.
The town is a haven for runaways and people with mental illness with no services to treat them.
It's a beautiful place with a lot of the same problems as anywhere else




This is very interesting for all these people who are for full legalization of all drugs. I mean having an example where one can see that that, buying able to buy weed meth and alcohol all with the same easiness surely shows that this doesnt leads to anything desirable, or at least doesnt really fix the problems leading to addiction, misuse etc either.


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26810277 - 07/08/20 04:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The major difference imo lies in whether focus is put on controlling a physical space or the developing the human relationships that define it:





This is something that communes do very well, for the people that choose to join them.
The downside is that it doesn't seem to suit their children very well.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: polaritymind]
    #26810311 - 07/08/20 04:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

polaritymind said:
This is very interesting for all these people who are for full legalization of all drugs. I mean having an example where one can see that that, buying able to buy weed meth and alcohol all with the same easiness surely shows that this doesnt leads to anything desirable, or at least doesnt really fix the problems leading to addiction, misuse etc either.




:super: for the people that moved there with the intention to get into nature, get into their art, grow their own food and yes grow some weed to buy the basics so they aren't reliant on welfare, it's cool.

... but the grub element, the ones that don't give a damn about anything other than their own self gratification, that steal and manipulate and rip off honest people, that think they're smarter than everyone else because they get away with real crime, that are and always will be the problem.

Jail is exactly the place for those sort of people.
At least in jail, they have a better chance of being taught if they want to buy ciggies/soft drink/anything beyond food they need to do some work, they're taught how to handle money, taught how to read and write, taught how to cook, shown the basic skills most people take for granted that they were never shown.
Yeah they get taught how to break into cars, and gain better drug contacts but if it wasn't for doing a stretch in jail they'd have nothing.

(I've worked in a low/medium security prison as an electrician for months on end on two separate occasions)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26810796 - 07/08/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Chop or chaz was a dam joke they became every thing they stood against an then some.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Mach z 800]
    #26810894 - 07/08/20 11:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Honestly, I'm (obviously, being on this site) for the legalization of more drugs as well as local communities helping one another with things like gardens, medicine, livestock, etc...

The problem is once you get more than about 20 people in a group, without any sort of law enforcement or leadership that can enforce rules, you really can't expect people to keep their integrity intact. Humans are flawed, selfish things.

Seriously, everyone go watch this episode of south park. You'll laugh at just how much Matt and Trey captured the mentality of people who were in the CHAZ.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26810895 - 07/08/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811033 - 07/08/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Honestly, I'm (obviously, being on this site) for the legalization of more drugs as well as local communities helping one another with things like gardens, medicine, livestock, etc...

The problem is once you get more than about 20 people in a group, without any sort of law enforcement or leadership that can enforce rules, you really can't expect people to keep their integrity intact. Humans are flawed, selfish things.



So your solution is to empower a group of more than 20 people (law enforcement) to legally commit violent acts, and expect their integrity to somehow remain intact?

What makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature?


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811148 - 07/08/20 03:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Honestly, I'm (obviously, being on this site) for the legalization of more drugs as well as local communities helping one another with things like gardens, medicine, livestock, etc...

The problem is once you get more than about 20 people in a group, without any sort of law enforcement or leadership that can enforce rules, you really can't expect people to keep their integrity intact. Humans are flawed, selfish things.



So your solution is to empower a group of more than 20 people (law enforcement) to legally commit violent acts, and expect their integrity to somehow remain intact?

What makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature?




I'm rooted in realism, not idealism.

Utopia doesn't exist because we live on a planet where to survive we have to consume one another.

The "least worst" option we have is police forces.

This is already self-evident in cities whose crime has skyrocketed in areas where "Defund the police" is strongest.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811258 - 07/08/20 04:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's not self-evident to me, and I've lived in more than one police-free zone over the years. Do you have any data that supports a correlation between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces"? Since you're rooted in realism and all.

You also neglected to answer this question: what makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature? It seems pretty idealistic to just assume authority will be inherently less flawed and selfish.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811316 - 07/08/20 04:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:: what makes rule-enforcing law enforcement or leadership rise above (as you describe it) flawed and selfish human nature?




Checks and balances, which is what our nation was founded on.

Corruption is going to exist in any system.

Those that have studied history from beginning to end understand that war... war never changes.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811418 - 07/08/20 05:46 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Okay, so undefined "checks and balances" are able to overcome our 'flawed and selfish human nature'. What would prevent an autonomous neighbourhood from implementing their own set of checks and balances?


You also neglected to answer this question: Do you have any data that supports a correlation between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces"?


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811525 - 07/08/20 06:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Okay, so undefined "checks and balances" are able to overcome our 'flawed and selfish human nature'.




No.

They can only mitigate it. And it does a better job mitigating it than virtually any other system in history aside from a benevolent monarchy, but that corrupts in usually two generations, tops.

Quote:

What would prevent an autonomous neighbourhood from implementing their own set of checks and balances?




Nothing. Small communities do it all the time with various forms of leadership. Tribes in all parts of the world do it. But ultimately you wind up with a form of "rule/law enforcement" once a group exceeds 20-30 people because leadership and rules are required once a group is large enough. Furthermore, people in the group actually have to be COMPETENT and need to have ROLES. Real ones. Productive "jobs" that go beyond "safe space coordinator." Chaz was full of a bunch of children in adult bodies who were better at smoking weed than growing actual food. They relied on the water pumping system of Seattle, the electrical grid of Seattle, the 4G of Seattle, the FOOD of Seattle, etc...

In addition to all of this, they were all essentially domestic terrorists by taking and claiming a few blocks as their own. They took all the residents and the business in the area hostage whether they wanted to be there or not and business owners, as I mentioned previous, were AFRAID to speak out against the CHAZ due to mob justice that had been acted out nationwide when a business's name went viral.

A REAL autonomous zone is actually autonomous, not hijacked land where people that don't want to be apart of it are living, not when you have to rely on someone else's water, food, electricity, plumbing, internet, etc...

CHAZ REALLY was a pathetic joke... we just let the collective, inflated, egotistical circle jerk play out so America could see how disconnected from reality these people really are. "Yeah bro, we're independent, fuck the government! Fuck the USA!" :rolleyes:

Quote:

You also neglected to answer this question: Do you have any data that supports a correlation between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces"?




I have far more relevant data as to why the movement is a complete joke in the first place if the BLM protesters care about black lives. Do you know how many black people, including children, have already been killed directly or indirectly related to the protests? in one month, more than cops have shot in 3 years. #hypocrites

Regardless, if you read the news in virtually every major city where rioting has been an issue, it's self evident that the more police have backed down in any city, regardless of "Defund the Police," the more crime has gone up.

That number of course includes the rioters breaking the law themselves, but even independent of that, over 100 people were shot and KILLED in America last weekend alone.

And furtheremore, regarding BLM, just going to slip this in here.



Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 06:44 PM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811665 - 07/08/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Okay, so undefined "checks and balances" are able to overcome our 'flawed and selfish human nature'.




They are not undefined. I said, quoting my self again. "Checks and balances, which is what our nation was founded on."

Either you know our history or you do not. Either way, you ought to.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811667 - 07/08/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not sure secessionist or terrorist are appropriate labels for the CHAZ. If you didn't go visit personally, what secondhand information are you basing your opinion on?

And sorry but none of that information is relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces". Were you unable to find anything actually relevant? Perhaps your opinions aren't as rooted in reality as you would like to believe.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26811676 - 07/08/20 08:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'm not sure secessionist or terrorist are appropriate labels for the CHAZ.




They took land thousands of Americans were living on and running business in without their say and they defended the area with walls and guns. They would physically trash businesses that spoke out against them. This isn't a debate. It's textbook terrorism. Just because they paint flowers on the ground they are not all of a sudden the good guys.

Quote:

And sorry but none of that information is relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns; or your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces".




You have not provided me with any alternative except "people can live in harmony and just not commit crime."

Given that option doesn't actually even exist in the real world, all that's left is law enforcement.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 08:38 PM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811684 - 07/08/20 08:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

And sorry but none of that information is relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns




The murder rate in CHAZ per capita was over ten times higher than Detroit, (i actually think it was 15 times higher), let's not forget. I already said this like twice I think.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/08/20 08:45 PM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26811699 - 07/08/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oxford dictionary definition of terrorism:

"the unlawful (yes) use of violence and intimidation (yes), especially against civilians (super yes), in the pursuit of political aims (HELL yes)

Wow, it's CHAZ 100%


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26811773 - 07/08/20 09:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Truckers aren't going to deliver to cities without adequate police.

“As of June 13, 2020, we’ve had over 1,283 respondents and 79% say they will refuse loads to cities with disbanded or defunded police departments.”

Everything is connected, economically. Defunding the police means starving cities.

Good luck.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26811920 - 07/09/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Police are the only thing that poor people have to protect them from criminals and these "defund police" retards want to take that away from them.

Look what's happening in New York right now
https://compstat.nypdonline.org/2e5c3f4b-85c1-4635-83c6-22b27fe7c75c/view/90

Oops, what does that say, murders are up 500% ?


Yeah, that's what it says


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: MightyWhite]
    #26811942 - 07/09/20 01:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Police are the only thing that poor people have to protect them from criminals




Yes. And who are the poorest communities who already have the highest murder rates in like EVERY DEMOCRAT CITY?

Black people.

BLM winds up defunding the police and getting even more black people killed. It's actually laughable.

The BLM movement is full of oblivious pawns working for larger agendas and they don't even realize it.



Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 01:10 AM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26811958 - 07/09/20 01:38 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I would make the distinction that defunding the police is laughable, not black people being murdered.

You're probably walking a thin line right now showing that data. You better tone down the racism and bigotry before you get banned


Let's talk about the real problems here,  about how violent and dangerous fascists and white supremacists are instead. You know, I read an article that the Proud Boys were driving around in vans beating people up...


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: MightyWhite]
    #26811960 - 07/09/20 01:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If Bernie would've been nominated, we wouldn't be in this mess. Bernie would give us free weed and rich people would have to pay for it.

Bernie would've won if he didn't lose. Bernie is wildly popular.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: MightyWhite]
    #26811962 - 07/09/20 02:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You're probably walking a thin line right now showing that data. You better tone down the racism and bigotry before you get banned




If I get banned for posting an actual graph from the FBI, this board has been compromised and I don't want to be here, anyway. Think really hard about what you just said.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26812185 - 07/09/20 06:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Neither of those graphs really prove much of anything, not unless you like to tell camp fire stories. Yes, most cities have Democratic mayors. Good work. If you are trying to say that areas with Democratic mayors have higher crime rates due to Democratic governance, you are clearly wrong, as correlations is not causation. Also, BLM hasn't really done a lot of protesting in regards to citizen on citizen murders (because cops killing citizens isn't categorized as murder). BLM are protesting cops killing black people at disproportionate rates. That includes black cops killing black people. So that graph simply doesn't apply. So in conclusion, you just like to tell camp fire stories.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812246 - 07/09/20 07:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

You're probably walking a thin line right now showing that data. You better tone down the racism and bigotry before you get banned




If I get banned for posting an actual graph from the FBI, this board has been compromised and I don't want to be here, anyway. Think really hard about what you just said.




What has this world come to when the federal government isn’t regarded as a good source on an illicit drug forum


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26812247 - 07/09/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Also I knew exactly what graphs were posted without even needing to go back a page, that’s how predictable you are.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: christopera] * 2
    #26812492 - 07/09/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BLM are protesting cops killing black people at disproportionate rates.





African Americans are about 12% of the population yet commit more than 50% of the crime.

Of COURSE there's going to be a disproportionate number of shootings.  If people would get their head out of their asses and do some basic counting, this would be obvious.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26812494 - 07/09/20 10:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also I knew exactly what graphs were posted without even needing to go back a page, that’s how predictable you are.





Who cares? Being predictable here doesn't change jack shit. The numbers still stand.

Congratulations. You've contributed so much to this thread!


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 10:01 AM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812555 - 07/09/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also I knew exactly what graphs were posted without even needing to go back a page, that’s how predictable you are.





Who cares? Being predictable here doesn't change jack shit. The numbers still stand.

Congratulations. You've contributed so much to this thread!



And then the media said trump lied when he said the most dangerous cities were run by Democrats  :lol:


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26812613 - 07/09/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

BLM are protesting cops killing black people at disproportionate rates.





African Americans are about 12% of the population yet commit more than 50% of the crime.

Of COURSE there's going to be a disproportionate number of shootings.  If people would get their head out of their asses and do some basic counting, this would be obvious.




Predictable response from a person who posted a bunch of graphs that prove absolutely nothing. First off, "50% of the crime" is made up. You sure do like camp fire stories. Second off, you are fine with cops being the judge, jury, and executioner? Or are we provided with due process in this country?

White people made up about 68% of all arrests in 2017. African American were were good for 27%. Don't cry into your lucky charms.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also I knew exactly what graphs were posted without even needing to go back a page, that’s how predictable you are.





Who cares? Being predictable here doesn't change jack shit. The numbers still stand.





Those numbers don't mean shit. It's just you telling camp fire stories. Whatever facebook meme you pulled that bullshit from needs to go away.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: christopera]
    #26812617 - 07/09/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This is an "arrested" chart. Not a "crime committed" chart.

Words matter.

Try again.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812619 - 07/09/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Second off, you are fine with cops being the judge, jury, and executioner




Another strawman. They are neither the judge, nor the jury. I know this and I know you know this.

Try again.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812628 - 07/09/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I will amend my statement. It's not that the 12% black population commits 50% of the crime, I slightly misspoke.

It's that they commit over 50% of the murders.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: christopera]
    #26812638 - 07/09/20 11:05 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:lol: Couldn't back up their claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns - or their claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces" - so instead they decide to pull out the ol' 13/52...

Yes, definitely rooted in reality :lol:


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812642 - 07/09/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
This is an "arrested" chart. Not a "crime committed" chart.

Words matter.

Try again.





That's because the FBI doesn't publish conviction numbers. You show me the crime data where African Americans commit "commit more than 50% of the crime" and we will have something. You made the claim, now support it.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Second off, you are fine with cops being the judge, jury, and executioner




Another strawman. They are neither the judge, nor the jury. I know this and I know you know this.

Try again.




You don't know what a strawman fallacy is.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26812645 - 07/09/20 11:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I will amend my statement. It's not that the 12% black population commits 50% of the crime, I slightly misspoke.

It's that they commit over 50% of the murders.




Ohh, so it was make believe. Thanks for coming to the table.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812650 - 07/09/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I will amend my statement. It's not that the 12% black population commits 50% of the crime, I slightly misspoke.

It's that they commit over 50% of the murders.





Any by the way, don't be a Texas sharp shooter, which is a the cherry picking fallacy. You have picked a single statistic and labeled black people worse than everybody else.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: christopera]
    #26812705 - 07/09/20 11:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

christopera said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I will amend my statement. It's not that the 12% black population commits 50% of the crime, I slightly misspoke.

It's that they commit over 50% of the murders.





Any by the way, don't be a Texas sharp shooter, which is a the cherry picking fallacy. You have picked a single statistic and labeled black people worse than everybody else.




I've done no such thing. You're projecting. Reel it in.

The reason we bring this statistic up on our side of the debate is to merely point out that the BLM protests don't really give a shit about black lives. They only fuckin' care when a white person, ideally a cop, shoots a black man. And it happens so rarely that an unarmed innocent black man is shot and killed by a cop relative to what happens when they point guns at each other.

I am bothered by the way you "debate" because two times in a row now you've created a position that you pretend I adopt and then proceed to mock it or debunk it when it's not even my position in the first place.

This is *exactly* what a strawman is.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812709 - 07/09/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm the only one among most of my peers that has talked about the fact that BLM protesters have been responsible for more black deaths IN LIKE ONE MONTH, directly and indirectly, than cops have shot in like 3 years. (unarmed, innocent black men.)

Nobody seems to give a shit about all of these lives but me.

Do you? Cuz nobody fuckin' talks about it.

The entire reason why we have to talk about BLM in conjunction with the CHAZ is because that's basically why CHAZ happened in the first place.

BLM doesn't give a shit about black lives if they can't politicize it.

Floyd fuckin held weapons to peoples stomachs in his past and he gets love and praise from people.

Two little girls die and nobody fuckin' cares.

I fucking hate it, man. I hate it.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 11:44 AM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26812720 - 07/09/20 11:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
:lol: Couldn't back up their claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns - or their claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces" - so instead they decide to pull out the ol' 13/52...

Yes, definitely rooted in reality :lol:




I've given you plenty of empirical data already. I don't even know what planet you're on any longer. You've not even ATTEMPTED to explain why the previous data I've pointed out isn't good enough for you and instead you still insist I've shown you nothing.

In debate class you'd be failing for not at least addressing the things I've pointed out. I've addressed EVERYTHING you've said, INCLUDING the things that I accidentally missed, you pointed OUT I missed, and then I went back and answered anyway.

Talk about one-sided, here.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 11:43 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26812724 - 07/09/20 11:44 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Also I knew exactly what graphs were posted without even needing to go back a page, that’s how predictable you are.





Who cares? Being predictable here doesn't change jack shit. The numbers still stand.

Congratulations. You've contributed so much to this thread!




The numbers are irrelevant genius.

Black people getting arrested and imprisoned more than whites is proof of our racist justice system (the one you cried about Joe Biden expanding in the other thread), not proof of black people’s inherent criminality.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812730 - 07/09/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do you have any proof that BLM protesters have been responsible for more deaths than the police?

Please provide a source.

Also show where I’ve made a strawman? I asked you a question that you’ve since avoided answering. That’s not a strawman.

You’ve amended your fictional claim, then failed to address that the new claim is cherry picking data.

Nobody is interested in camp fire stories but you. You’ve continued to provide false analysis and poorly chosen data to support your claims.


--------------------
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Edited by christopera (07/09/20 11:48 AM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26812731 - 07/09/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Black people getting arrested and imprisoned more than whites is proof of our racist justice system




No it's not. This isn't even worth addressing further. It's just not.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 11:48 AM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26812733 - 07/09/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like an appeal to authority there bucko. :smug:


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: christopera]
    #26812757 - 07/09/20 12:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Please provide a source.




In America, only 13 unarmed black men were shot by police last year. You can easily google this. (And we can't assume they were all acting harmless.)

In America, there were several hundred shootings over 4th of July weekend ALONE with over 100 killed. This is also EASILY googled. This number is way up from the norm because of the state of chaos BLM riots has created. Do your own homework.

No one gives a shit about any of those lives, really. Two little girls were shot and killed in the vicinity of BLM riots.

Here and here.


Quote:

I asked you a question that you’ve since avoided answering




I've done no such thing, but you sure like saying "campfire stories." Gawd, I think you've said it like 4 times now. Is that the ONLY thing you can come up with? If you're going to sidestep rational debate and go all Machiavellian on me, at least be more original. I'm getting bored... it doesn't even really make any sense, either.


Quote:

You’ve amended your fictional claim, then failed to address that the new claim is cherry picking data.




I addressed it *directly.* You're hilarious.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 12:10 PM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26812764 - 07/09/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
:lol: Couldn't back up their claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns - or their claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces" - so instead they decide to pull out the ol' 13/52...

Yes, definitely rooted in reality :lol:




I've given you plenty of empirical data already. I don't even know what planet you're on any longer. You've not even ATTEMPTED to explain why the previous data I've pointed out isn't good enough for you and instead you still insist I've shown you nothing.

In debate class you'd be failing for not at least addressing the things I've pointed out. I've addressed EVERYTHING you've said, INCLUDING the things that I accidentally missed, you pointed OUT I missed, and then I went back and answered anyway.

Talk about one-sided, here.



Sorry but none of your "empirical data" was relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns, nor your claim that "the least worst option we have is police forces". This was your goalpost shifting response: "I have far more relevant data as to why the movement is a complete joke in the first place if the BLM protesters care about black lives." Probably because you couldn't find anything to support your lies.

This is your chance to prove me wrong but quoting your posts that provide supportive empirical data.

Or not, because we all know it's bullshit. Better race trolls than you have already tried and failed on this forum.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26812802 - 07/09/20 12:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry but none of your "empirical data" was relevant to your claim that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns




So then, debunk it.

Explain to me, in solid detail, why CHAZ'S murder rate per capita being 15 times higher than that of even Detroit isn't a good piece of evidence for why we need to cops to prevent murders.

Explain to me, in solid detail, why we should take BLM seriously even though they are trashing their own cities where cops have withdrawn and have negatively affected their own local black communities.

Explain to me, in solid detail, why even though george floyd was a criminal who held people at weapon point, he gets fucking murals all over the nation, but the same BLM protest WINDS UP BEING RESPONSIBLE for the murder of two little girls and BLM rioters say nothing.

Explain to me, in solid detail, why things things are not correlated to the fact that the presence of cops have withdrawn support in virtually all of these places.

Give me an alternative.

You haven't actually debated me at all, yet. You're just awfully good at saying "lol no that doesn't count."


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 12:23 PM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812811 - 07/09/20 12:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

Please provide a source.




In America, only 13 unarmed black men were shot by police last year. You can easily google this. (And we can't assume they were all acting harmless.)

In America, there were several hundred shootings over 4th of July weekend ALONE with over 100 killed. This is also EASILY googled. This number is way up from the norm because of the state of chaos BLM riots has created. Do your own homework.

No one gives a shit about any of those lives, really. Two little girls were shot and killed in the vicinity of BLM riots.

Here and here.


Quote:

I asked you a question that you’ve since avoided answering




I've done no such thing, but you sure like saying "campfire stories." Gawd, I think you've said it like 4 times now. Is that the ONLY thing you can come up with? If you're going to sidestep rational debate and go all Machiavellian on me, at least be more original. I'm getting bored... it doesn't even really make any sense, either.


Quote:

You’ve amended your fictional claim, then failed to address that the new claim is cherry picking data.




I addressed it *directly.* You're hilarious.





You haven’t avoided my question, yet it’s still unanswered.

That’s a lot of words when you could have just admitted that you are telling scary stories in regards to BLM killing more than the police.

You used the word “amended” in regards to your false statement. If you dislike that language take it up with yourself. But you’re still cherry picking data. That data is the same data as I provided a source for by the way. So you tried to discredit my source on the grounds that it’s based on arrests then turned around and used numbers from that same arrests data. It’s a bit silly don’t you think?


--------------------
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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: christopera]
    #26812821 - 07/09/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Relating to statistics, "arrests" are not "crimes" are not "murders."

They are all completely different categories.

I didn't draw anything from your data chart. I asked my self if I was getting my wires crossed and Googled my own sources.

One amends one's statement when one realizes he mad a mistake. It's the sign of an ego that is in check.

Quote:

You haven’t avoided my question, yet it’s still unanswered.




So then ask again, it seems I must have missed it.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812830 - 07/09/20 12:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Why would I spend time debunking all the irrelevant (and mostly unsourced) "empirical data" you provided, instead of pushing you to support your initial claim? Letting you deflect from a weak argument by choosing to focus on, and debunk, the irrelevant information you continually vomit onto this forum would be to fall for your use of the red herring logical fallacy, and allow you to control the discussion in your favour.

You made the thread, and you made the claims - time to put up or shut up.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #26812840 - 07/09/20 12:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I've already put up plenty of information that is plenty relevant. Heaping spoonfuls, even.

Just because it's not good enough for you doesn't mean it's not good enough, period.

My arguments have not been weak. They are so strong, in fact, that you won't even address them. :wink:

You'd fail debate class.


--------------------


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26812881 - 07/09/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

"The White Fragility Hustle"

MUST WATCH



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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812891 - 07/09/20 01:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Despite making up only 12% of this thread, your posts commit more than 50% of the falsehoods and outright lies.


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26812907 - 07/09/20 01:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well, looks like I've won this debate.

I've reduced the opposition down to name-calling and accusations without explanation.

No surprises, there.


--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/09/20 01:21 PM)


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421]
    #26812946 - 07/09/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Explain to me, in solid detail, why CHAZ'S murder rate per capita being 15 times higher than that of even Detroit isn't a good piece of evidence for why we need to cops to prevent murders.



Explain to me, in solid detail, how you calculated the per capita murder rate of the CHAZ.



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Explain to me, in solid detail, why we should take BLM seriously even though they are trashing their own cities where cops have withdrawn and have negatively affected their own local black communities.



Explain to me, in solid detail, how this is relevant to your claims that a correlation exists between crime levels and 'Defund the Police' campaigns, and that "the least worst option we have is police forces".



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Explain to me, in solid detail, why even though george floyd was a criminal who held people at weapon point, he gets fucking murals all over the nation, but the same BLM protest WINDS UP BEING RESPONSIBLE for the murder of two little girls and BLM rioters say nothing.



Explain to me, in solid detail, why you attribute the murders of two little girls to BLM; why a criminal history would change the injustice that is George Floyd’s police murder; and how you know that BLM has ignored the deaths of these two girl. 



Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Explain to me, in solid detail, why things things are not correlated to the fact that the presence of cops have withdrawn support in virtually all of these places.



Explain to me, in solid detail, how even if there is a correlation that this also implies a causation.



And please explain to me, in solid detail, how you know that "the least worst option we have is police forces".


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #26813162 - 07/09/20 03:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Clearly the way things are is how they should be. Why else would they be this way?


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26813188 - 07/09/20 03:38 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Relating to statistics, "arrests" are not "crimes" are not "murders."

They are all completely different categories.

I didn't draw anything from your data chart. I asked my self if I was getting my wires crossed and Googled my own sources.

One amends one's statement when one realizes he mad a mistake. It's the sign of an ego that is in check.

Quote:

You haven’t avoided my question, yet it’s still unanswered.




So then ask again, it seems I must have missed it.




Go find a source, and provide it. There is about a 95% that your "source" that you you googled referenced the FBI data I provided. Then either they misrepresented the number or you did.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
I've already put up plenty of information that is plenty relevant. Heaping spoonfuls, even.

Just because it's not good enough for you doesn't mean it's not good enough, period.

My arguments have not been weak. They are so strong, in fact, that you won't even address them. :wink:

You'd fail debate class.




Basically every one of your points has been made up or intellectually dishonest. When I pointed out that your graphs have no hearing on anything, you simply ignored it.

Quote:

[christopera said:]Neither of those graphs really prove much of anything, not unless you like to tell camp fire stories. Yes, most cities have Democratic mayors. Good work. If you are trying to say that areas with Democratic mayors have higher crime rates due to Democratic governance, you are clearly wrong, as correlations is not causation




Then you made the claim that BLM has killed more people than the police, and you've failed to provide a shed of proof to support the claim.

Then this.

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Well, looks like I've won this debate.

I've reduced the opposition down to name-calling and accusations without explanation.

No surprises, there.






If you are serious about this, then bring some proof! That's all you have to do.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26813239 - 07/09/20 04:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Well, looks like I've won this debate.

I've reduced the opposition down to name-calling and accusations without explanation.

No surprises, there.




“Everyone thinks I’m a fuckin moron, mission accomplished.”


--------------------


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26813453 - 07/09/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Well, looks like I've won this debate.

I've reduced the opposition down to name-calling and accusations without explanation.

No surprises, there.




“Everyone thinks I’m a fuckin moron, mission accomplished.”




Here, Here.

Homeboy runs up on our set
and gets handled......well Vault, welcome to the the poli- forum....Greatness awaits you!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: The aftermath of Seattle's CHAZ/CHOP. My insights. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26814607 - 07/10/20 08:36 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I've left you more than enough pieces of the puzzle.

Tell you what I'm gonna do. Seattle basically just voted to defund the police by 50%. Should be taking affect by this Summer.

I'm coming back here in a few weeks once the city goes to complete shit to give you all two middle fingers.

In the meantime, enjoy thinking you've all somehow debunked something so absurdly obvious.

Edit: For those that actually live in Seattle, you better move now. Your house value is about to depreciate anywhere between 25-50%



--------------------


Edited by Vahn421 (07/10/20 09:09 AM)


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