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InvisibleAsante
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The Minimum Wage Machine
    #26808297 - 07/07/20 05:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)



Should minimum wage stay put, be raised or should basic income for all be realized?


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26808471 - 07/07/20 08:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And yet, people flock from other countires for the opportunity to turn the crank.....dont disagree with the machine's premise, but it leaves out a large swath of countries that dont even have a crank. IMO, allot of these countries  have been exporting thier poverty to the USA....... which we gladly accept the cheap labor.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26808647 - 07/07/20 09:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Raise it to $20 an hour and provide UBI.


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Offlineqman
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: SirTripAlot] * 2
    #26808670 - 07/07/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
And yet, people flock from other countires for the opportunity to turn the crank.....dont disagree with the machine's premise, but it leaves out a large swath of countries that dont even have a crank. IMO, allot of these countries  have been exporting thier poverty to the USA....... which we gladly accept the cheap labor.




The Elite gladly accept the cheap labor and the poverty that results from immigration.


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InvisibleMagicMush123
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26808672 - 07/07/20 09:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lol thats assuming that a minimum wage job is as useless as turning a crank  :lol:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: MagicMush123] * 2
    #26808793 - 07/07/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

that's not at all what the piece is saying


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26808804 - 07/07/20 11:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.


Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 11:01 AM)


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421] * 2
    #26809060 - 07/07/20 01:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




What an ignorant statement.



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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic] * 6
    #26809065 - 07/07/20 01:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Also: all labor is skilled labor

Also: when you say that the minimum wage shouldn’t be enough to support remaining alive, what you’re saying is that some folks who work jobs that are necessary for our society to function simply don’t deserve to exist.

You’re probably the same dude who rails against these people using social programs, since their employers won’t pay them a livable wage.


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Offlineqman
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421]
    #26809093 - 07/07/20 01:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




Many people only make 10-20% more than the minimum wage, what's the reason for that outcome?  You do realize there's only so much need for educated and highly skilled labor?  What's your solution for dealing with the tens of millions that work low skilled jobs?


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: qman]
    #26809103 - 07/07/20 01:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It’s simple: they deserve to live in abject poverty for as long as they can muster.

It’s economics 101 here folks!


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: qman]
    #26809127 - 07/07/20 01:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




Many people only make 10-20% more than the minimum wage, what's the reason for that outcome?  You do realize there's only so much need for educated and highly skilled labor?  What's your solution for dealing with the tens of millions that work low skilled jobs?




Change your life habits. No one is going to save you but you.


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Offlineqman
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421] * 1
    #26809184 - 07/07/20 02:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




Many people only make 10-20% more than the minimum wage, what's the reason for that outcome?  You do realize there's only so much need for educated and highly skilled labor?  What's your solution for dealing with the tens of millions that work low skilled jobs?




Change your life habits. No one is going to save you but you.




So you won't answer the question. What are tens of millions of workers going to do?  How can they save themselves exactly?


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: qman]
    #26809285 - 07/07/20 03:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




Many people only make 10-20% more than the minimum wage, what's the reason for that outcome?  You do realize there's only so much need for educated and highly skilled labor?  What's your solution for dealing with the tens of millions that work low skilled jobs?




Change your life habits. No one is going to save you but you.




So you won't answer the question. What are tens of millions of workers going to do?  How can they save themselves exactly?




Answering the question in detail is far too complex of a task. It requires America as a collective to change their dietary habits, start talking to their neighbor again to learn local cooperation, reconciling with strained family ties in order to take care of one another, (which is another way of saying subduing your damn ego), being well informed enough to vote properly to make sure the right politicians who won't fuck you over get placed into office, not being a fucking moron with your penis (or vagina) so you don't wind up having to take care of kids you can't afford, spending money on useful things rather than useless things so the economy produces more of them and choosing not to waste your time when you're younger in life so that you wont wind up as a 35 year old loser working fast food. You could have been so much more. The fact you don't think so means I think more highly of you than you do.  (A general "you" not directed at anyone.)

I could mention so much more, but it all sums down to: Change your life habits.

Also, for what it's worth, a "rich" man living in the 1500's didn't even have hot running water, whereas our poorest DO. It's also clean.

Wealth is relative. When you get handed so many things for free for so long, we tend to forget.

The poorest among us are richer in some ways than the upper class was 500 years ago.

The funniest thing I find about this thread is that if psychedelics have taught us anything, it ought to be that no one can save you but yourself and money is an illusion. Your vibration will attract the like. This isn't any different in the workforce.

Get caught up in thoughts about minimum wage, attract minimum wage.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 03:04 PM)


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OfflineYukon Cornelius
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421]
    #26809324 - 07/07/20 03:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

[Vahn421 said:

Answering the question in detail is far too complex of a task. It requires America as a collective to change their dietary habits, start talking to their neighbor again to learn local cooperation, reconciling with strained family ties in order to take care of one another, (which is another way of saying subduing your damn ego), being well informed enough to vote properly to make sure the right politicians who won't fuck you over get placed into office, not being a fucking moron with your penis (or vagina) so you don't wind up having to take care of kids you can't afford, spending money on useful things rather than useless things so the economy produces more of them and choosing not to waste your time when you're younger in life so that you wont wind up as a 35 year old loser working fast food. You could have been so much more. The fact you don't think so means I think more highly of you than you do.  (A general "you" not directed at anyone.)

I could mention so much more, but it all sums down to: Change your life habits.

Also, for what it's worth, a "rich" man living in the 1500's didn't even have hot running water, whereas our poorest DO. It's also clean.

Wealth is relative. When you get handed so many things for free for so long, we tend to forget.

The poorest among us are richer in some ways than the upper class was 500 years ago.

The funniest thing I find about this thread is that if psychedelics have taught us anything, it ought to be that no one can save you but yourself and money is an illusion. Your vibration will attract the like. This isn't any different in the workforce.

Get caught up in thoughts about minimum wage, attract minimum wage.




I remember my first time dropping acid and reading Ayn Rand.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Yukon Cornelius] * 1
    #26809332 - 07/07/20 03:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I employee people in America. Federal minimum is 7.25 and my state doesn't set it higher. We start people at no less than 9.25 just to get people who can actually count to ten and tie their own shoes. Even with the people we get for 9.25 I could make a very compelling argument that minimum wage should be lowered.
Forget their job every day.
Can't put numbered items away in the correct order. Part numbers are 5 digits or less.
Some people can't even handle a fast food job. Never will either. There's people that fuck uo McDonald's orders every time. Should they get a living wage? If they need their hand held to exist but are otherwise completely able bodied mentally and physically then I say no.

I'd rather give UBI to people who are disabled and can't work before raising the minimum wage on people who can work but can't handle the easiest tasks in the world.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26809340 - 07/07/20 03:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




What an ignorant statement.





Not ignorant at all. Those 35 year olds suck.
They're the kind of people that quit day one because putting bottles in a box and then onto a pallet is too hard. Meanwhile people who don't speak English that are twice that age happily do it. I can afford to give those people raises because the 35 year old deadbeat fuck gets the floor wage.

You ask most people that make 7.25 if they want to have more responsibilities at work and they say NO :rofl:


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26809347 - 07/07/20 03:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A living wage is relative.  3 people making $8 an hour working 40 hours a week is still a 4K monthly household. You can cooperate and live well in a nice 2 bedroom apartment. The problem is, people are bad at cooperating. At least white people are. My Mexican friends did it, no problem... and they're way successful now.

Another problem is everyone wants to live alone in a $1400 monthly 3 bedroom condo before developing the life skills necessary to push them into place where they deserve it.

Now don't get me wrong. Housing markets are outrageous right now, but hiking the minimum wage is just going to once again raise the cost of living. It always does. There are better solutions. (And no perfect one.)


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421]
    #26809351 - 07/07/20 03:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Dude all the Mexican friends I have do better than me with half the money. It's outrageous how extremely efficient and resourceful their society is in the American cultural realm.


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OfflineVahn421
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26809361 - 07/07/20 03:53 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Dude all the Mexican friends I have do better than me with half the money. It's outrageous how extremely efficient and resourceful their society is in the American cultural realm.




It's because their *relative* perspective is different than us spoiled American brats who think we're OWED everything.

And they are far less wasteful and excellent at penny pinching.


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Edited by Vahn421 (07/07/20 03:54 PM)


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OnlineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421]
    #26809450 - 07/07/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A large section of the economy consists of excess capital and "wasteful" spending, without it = smaller economy (that is, if nothing to scale were to replace it i.e. "smart purchases "). Say goodbye to investments.

Owed? What obligation are you referring to? Would it be wrong for me to collect a tax refund.... or are there certain exceptions?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Edited by SirTripAlot (07/07/20 04:54 PM)


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InvisibleR.I.P.Zappa
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #26809560 - 07/07/20 05:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

People gonna be hating but,,,,,

It is not how much you make, it is how you spend it and yeah, when one of your 5 employers bitch, "shit,,, I only got 60k back in taxes this year", mean while all us meat cutters look at each other then laugh in his face and and remind him that's twice of what we make in a whole fucking year and we only get 1.5k back in taxes!!!
Lets just say the old man had to remind him to keep his fucking mouth shut around us employees, it's pretty neat working side by side with your employers; you get to learn how essential you really are to them.

There is a fucking problem with the income disparity in this country and more importantly financial illiteracy because that guy claims hes broke all the time.

There is a good logical reason home economics was taken out of high school instead of sports, america's elite don't want financially literate consumers.

How many irresponsible businesses got bailed out again this year?? What ever happened to having a 6 month emergency fund!?!?
Oh yeah that's right, that football jersey, gucchi cock ring, that cabin on the lake or yacht was more important. :lmafo:

I would love to see minimum wage raised, more cash for me to invest, but here lies the problem,,, what good is having more money if you don't know how to use it in the first place?

It's like giving a dope fiend money for food.


--------------------
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Offlineqman
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: R.I.P.Zappa] * 1
    #26809595 - 07/07/20 06:08 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So instead of addressing low wage workers with real solutions, this thread has turned into how to manage living in dire poverty in the US (richest nation in human history). :rolleyes:  Talk about giving up on the concept of providing a livable wage in short order. :facepalm:

Here's a solution- bring back manufacturing jobs from the slave labor nations that US relocated the past 40 years!!!!

How about controlling our immigration?

How about providing universal health care like every other developed nation does in the world? 

Instead, it's learn to live like a third world migrant in your own homeland to manage yourself for the benefit of the very wealthy. :lolwut:


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OfflineMightyWhite
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26810202 - 07/08/20 02:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:


Should minimum wage stay put, be raised or should basic income for all be realized?




A higher wage isn't just given, it's earned. People seem to overlook this. By starting at a high wage, it takes away the incentive to be more productive or advance.

UBI only for physically or mentally disabled people that can't work like the rest of us


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26810474 - 07/08/20 07:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




What an ignorant statement.

[image]https://external-preview.redd.it/E0Pu_yZ6wlQSwkh9R46xOTf_fFSI6BEiuA0cVAY0hv8.png?auto=webp&s=2c015d3b37c09ff6e038fc6e9f]



Not ignorant at all. Those 35 year olds suck.
They're the kind of people that quit day one because putting bottles in a box and then onto a pallet is too hard. Meanwhile people who don't speak English that are twice that age happily do it. I can afford to give those people raises because the 35 year old deadbeat fuck gets the floor wage.

You ask most people that make 7.25 if they want to have more responsibilities at work and they say NO :rofl:




What does any of that have to do with the minimum wage?

We should keep wages low because there are lazy people out there?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26810512 - 07/08/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As much as I'm against minimum wage, his argument seems to ignore the fact that if someone is lazy, an employer can simply fire him/her and pay zero.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Enlil]
    #26810527 - 07/08/20 07:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The minimum wage is analogous to welfare for some.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26810531 - 07/08/20 07:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not against welfare.  I'm against minimum wage.  The key difference between the two is that welfare is a government funded program created by the government to promote stability of the society.  Minimum wage is the government forcing terms on the contract between two citizens.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26810536 - 07/08/20 07:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Eh, if you accept the necessity of state coercion you should be alright with the state mandating labor standards imo.


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OfflineSavantfou
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26810547 - 07/08/20 08:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I live in mama basement and minimum wage is good. I think rising it is not a long term solution only a short term one. UBI is a long term solution.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26810582 - 07/08/20 08:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

By that logic,  I should accept concentration camps.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Vahn421]
    #26810925 - 07/08/20 12:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Vahn421 said:
...hiking the minimum wage is just going to once again raise the cost of living. It always does.



According to various studies (this article is also referenced by the libertarian Cato Institute):

Quote:

Despite the different methodologies, data periods and data sources, most studies found that a 10% US minimum wage increase raises food prices by no more than 4% and overall prices by no more than 0.4%.




A 10% minimum wage increase for an overall 0.4% price increase seems VERY reasonable to me.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: MightyWhite]
    #26810926 - 07/08/20 12:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MightyWhite said:
A higher wage isn't just given, it's earned. People seem to overlook this. By starting at a high wage, it takes away the incentive to be more productive or advance.



So you're saying people who earn their companies more than their minimum wage co-workers won't get paid more?  Of course they would.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26810994 - 07/08/20 01:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

We should make the production of all necessary goods and services so cheap that the current minimum wage is an absolute fortune and can easily buy everything that anyone would need.

If you drove the cost of housing down to near zero, and the cost of food and electricity, then minimum wage would become a fortune just by staying put. In fact, if you lowered the cost of all goods in an extreme amount then you could actually lower minimum wage and still provide everyone with a higher standard of living than they have now. Eventually, if you lowered the cost of goods enough, you could provide everyone with everything they need for such a small amount of money that even the tiniest universal income guaranteed by the government would be a fortune.

In order to do that, you'd have to build absolutely massive automated factories that can produce arbitrary goods in extremely large quantities, and also automate the mining/production of the necessary materials that the goods require on a large scale, and likewise automate the construction of buildings and houses at scale. By automating the entire production chain from collection of raw materials all the way through house construction, and by making that automation work on a vast scale, you could drive the cost of all goods and housing into the ground.

That's currently a bit beyond our technology level, but it's not that far beyond it. If people worked at it seriously, you could make some real progress. It's not totally science fiction, you could realistically build all the things required to do something like this. It'd just take a hell of a lot of work and engineering.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26811206 - 07/08/20 03:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
By that logic,  I should accept concentration camps.




I mean maybe for some people.

My point being if you’re of the opinion that the state’s monopoly on violence is necessary to promote a functional society, mandating labor standards isn’t such a wild leap outside of that scope.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26811239 - 07/08/20 03:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What about all the people who went to college, hold worthless degrees?

You're told as a kid you have to go to college, when you get there you better choose the right degree or your gonna be sitting on debt you'll never pay off at your minimum wage job.

I think some of you older guys don't realize how different the world is.

My parents generation could work at a factory and afford a home, cars, and luxury goods. Now you need to live somewhere with low cost of living to maybe get some of the luxuries the generations did before us?

I'm financially sound and in a great situation, but I know if I was in the same situation 20 years ago, I would of retired by now.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: nooneman] * 1
    #26811481 - 07/08/20 06:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
We should make the production of all necessary goods and services so cheap that the current minimum wage is an absolute fortune and can easily buy everything that anyone would need.




It already is.

The only reason shit is expensive is because there's a long chain of paper pushers taking their cut along the way. And I don't mean regulations, I mean literal bullshit paper pushers. The guy that takes numbers from one excel file, copies them into another excel file, and takes a 60k a year salary because they're a "professional".

Oh, and shareholders. Shareholders need their cut too. And they need a big cut, we're talking like 50%.

This is why the actual farmer only gets 6% of the price that you pay at the store. Another 5-10% of the price is transportation costs, depending on factors like refrigeration, and then 50% goes to the shareholders that sit on their ass and make money by virtue of having enough money, and 30% goes to the 40 year old dude that fights tooth and nail against hiring a college student because they know the college student can figure out how to automate their job in a single afternoon. Maybe there's a 5% off sale at the end to get your ass in the door.

Artificial scarcity is a way of life in the US.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: MightyWhite] * 1
    #26812108 - 07/09/20 05:14 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MightyWhite said:
Quote:

Asante said:


Should minimum wage stay put, be raised or should basic income for all be realized?




A higher wage isn't just given, it's earned. People seem to overlook this.





Minimum wage correcting for inflation isn't just a given, its a right. America seems to overlook this.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26812330 - 07/09/20 08:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Is the minimum wage, currently keeping up with inflation?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: oculodextro] * 1
    #26812402 - 07/09/20 09:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Not even close.  It used to be the equivalent of over $12/hr in 1968:



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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26812546 - 07/09/20 10:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What about a sliding scale of income v subsidised services instead of a straight across the board rise in wages.
Things like childcare, healthcare, medicines, public transport, electricity/gas, rent, access to low % loans to buy a reliable new car.
When people earn more they get less % of assistance, but not in a way that encourages them staying at the bottom.
Welfare set as the minimum wage.


Edited by Stable Genius (07/09/20 10:36 AM)


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Stable Genius]
    #26812618 - 07/09/20 10:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'd be cool with that.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26812659 - 07/09/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

When the minimum wage is too high you get the baby boomer generation that made enough to buy a home working as a janitor.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26812703 - 07/09/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
When the minimum wage is too high you get the baby boomer generation that made enough to buy a home working as a janitor.




So janitors shouldn’t be able to afford homes?


As far as welfare vs wages, I’d be fine with wages being stagnant if our government adopted universal healthcare/tuition/childcare/transportation programs, provided the wealthy are the ones being taxed to fund it. As it stands now, the rich have managed to cut our wages while simultaneously increasing our share of the tax burden that goes to fund the programs that we wouldn’t need if they never cut our wages.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26812727 - 07/09/20 11:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So janitors shouldn’t be able to afford homes?



That's how I read it.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26812732 - 07/09/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What a dark time for America, when workers could afford shelter.

If you don’t sit in an office for your job you should live in the sewers with the rest of the scourge.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26812735 - 07/09/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:

Minimum wage correcting for inflation isn't just a given, its a right. America seems to overlook this.



What do you base this belief on?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Enlil]
    #26812738 - 07/09/20 11:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Fan fiction of the United States


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26813479 - 07/09/20 06:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

With all that said, The Federal Min Wage is not an accurate monetary amount, and has not depicted what a "minimum wage" looks like, for quite sometime. I would scrap the whole idea, and look for something better.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26813499 - 07/09/20 06:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So janitors shouldn’t be able to afford homes?



That's how I read it.



:snoopyes:

Apartments exist for a reason.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26813651 - 07/09/20 07:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Apartments exist for a reason.



To keep the poor from building equity in their home like wealthier people can?  To ensure their money goes to someone rich enough to afford an entire apartment complex?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26813750 - 07/09/20 08:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Classim, sexism, racism, very much alive!


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26814107 - 07/10/20 01:15 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Quote:

MightyWhite said:
Quote:

Asante said:


Should minimum wage stay put, be raised or should basic income for all be realized?




A higher wage isn't just given, it's earned. People seem to overlook this.





Minimum wage correcting for inflation isn't just a given, its a right. America seems to overlook this.





I don't know, that kind of seems like quite a stretch to me. It wouldn't hurt to bump up minimum wage a little, I think maybe between $11 - $13 an hour, definitely not $20 an hour though. And that's not because I want someone to be poor, so don't even start with that.

Some jobs only have a limited value and are only meant to be supplemental income. I don't believe that someone should be able to take the lazy man approach to life and make a career being a newspaper delivery boy or folding tacos at Taco Bell.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #26814115 - 07/10/20 01:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

MightyWhite said:
A higher wage isn't just given, it's earned. People seem to overlook this. By starting at a high wage, it takes away the incentive to be more productive or advance.



So you're saying people who earn their companies more than their minimum wage co-workers won't get paid more?  Of course they would.




No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not sure how you come up with that. I'm pretty much saying the complete opposite, why should someone with little or no experience be paid just as well as someone who does have skills and experience?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: MightyWhite] * 1
    #26814137 - 07/10/20 01:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MightyWhite said:
I'm pretty much saying the complete opposite, why should someone with little or no experience be paid just as well as someone who does have skills and experience?



They shouldn't and they wouldn't.  They'd get paid more than minimum wage.  So a minimum wage not only helps those at the bottom, it also helps those that are better than those at the bottom.  It may end up costing business owners a bit more, but there's an argument to be made that putting more money into the hands of more people will help business owners sell more product.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26814207 - 07/10/20 03:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Wage increases help everybody somewhat above them (and below them). Target just made their minimum wage $15. Amazon's minimum wage for day shift is $15. That has to go up, because working at Target is much easier, less stressful and physically demanding.

When they screwed/eliminated most of the unions it had a negative effect on many nonunion workers. Although union people made more, they had to pay people of similar skills at least 60-70% as much. When they made things worse for the union people/former union people it hurt the nonunion workers as well.

People who have those craft skills, remodeling etc. always have a chance to make good money working for them selves, but there are a lot of extra complications. Besides the other management skills that are involved, I have several friends who are in trouble for taxes, trouble that is going to take many years to go away. Union people don't have to worry about that. They work side jobs on the weekend, pay taxes on whatever gets paid by check, don't pay taxes on the cash jobs, and the IRS questions nothing, because they're paying a bunch of taxes.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #26814294 - 07/10/20 04:43 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Apartments exist for a reason.



To keep the poor from building equity in their home like wealthier people can?  To ensure their money goes to someone rich enough to afford an entire apartment complex?



A home comes with a chunk of land and a lot of responsibility. You really shouldn't be tasked with the responsibility of that caliber if you're resume doesn't match. People that make a janitors job possible by running a company and providing jobs are good candidates for all that comes with owning land and a home.

The economy and society find a way to balance themselves naturally despite any laws and regulations. Apartments exist for a reason.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 2
    #26814754 - 07/10/20 10:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
So janitors shouldn’t be able to afford homes?



That's how I read it.



:snoopyes:

Apartments exist for a reason.




For landlords to profit


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26814759 - 07/10/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think it’s because in populated areas the only way to build is up .


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Psilynut2]
    #26814763 - 07/10/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

And yet people still own homes in those places


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #26814790 - 07/10/20 10:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Some people can't handle owning their own residence. And some people don't want to have the responsibility.

But if you're an adult doing a job a kid could do with no training then yea you absolutely shouldn't be making a living wage. You should make I need support or roommate wages


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 2
    #26814818 - 07/10/20 10:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Some people can't handle owning their own residence. And some people don't want to have the responsibility.

But if you're an adult doing a job a kid could do with no training then yea you absolutely shouldn't be making a living wage. You should make I need support or roommate wages




My father was a landlord for 30 years and he had to reject so many applicants because of lack of income, and I can assure you it wasn't just adults doing kids jobs. It was adults in professions that had wages that couldn't keep up with modest inflation. Also, his rent rates were below average because the units were very basic. So it wasn't a case of people applying over their heads for luxury living conditions.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26814849 - 07/10/20 11:02 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Some people can't handle owning their own residence. And some people don't want to have the responsibility.

But if you're an adult doing a job a kid could do with no training then yea you absolutely shouldn't be making a living wage. You should make I need support or roommate wages




All jobs are something a kid could do with training.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #26814858 - 07/10/20 11:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yea no shit


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #26814862 - 07/10/20 11:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Then what’s your point genius?

These jobs need done and we don’t have enough child labor to do them all, so what’s the solution? Or is tens of millions of working families living in poverty not a problem in your opinion?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 2
    #26814985 - 07/10/20 11:52 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Apartments exist for a reason.



To keep the poor from building equity in their home like wealthier people can?  To ensure their money goes to someone rich enough to afford an entire apartment complex?



A home comes with a chunk of land and a lot of responsibility. You really shouldn't be tasked with the responsibility of that caliber if you're resume doesn't match.



What home owner responsibility are you referring to that a janitor couldn't handle?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: bodhisatta] * 5
    #26815051 - 07/10/20 12:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:

But if you're an adult doing a job a kid could do with no training then yea you absolutely shouldn't be making a living wage. You should make I need support or roommate wages




That's just disgusting man.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante] * 6
    #26815159 - 07/10/20 01:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That's America for you, "I got mine, so get fucked!"


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 3
    #26815289 - 07/10/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Apartments exist for a reason.



To keep the poor from building equity in their home like wealthier people can?  To ensure their money goes to someone rich enough to afford an entire apartment complex?



A home comes with a chunk of land and a lot of responsibility. You really shouldn't be tasked with the responsibility of that caliber if you're resume doesn't match.



What home owner responsibility are you referring to that a janitor couldn't handle?




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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #26816273 - 07/10/20 11:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Bod is just a shit posting edge lord :lol:

I worked for one of the largest research institutes in the us making 11 bucks
an hour and thought it was decent money since texas min wage is only $7.25, same as fed.

Worked 12hr shifts starting at 5am five days a week and an 8hr shift every other saturday and had
class every tuesday and thursday at 5:30pm.

Shit was a brutal time in life and even with all the overtime my pay still only amounted to $16-17 per hour.

Federal minimum wage being 7.25 is fucked up. I dont agree necessarily with 20,
but 7.25 is terrible and it's not even about the shit bod tries to make it about.

The fed minimum wage being so low gives big industry, like the largest research institute
in the south, an excuse to grossly under pay even for skilled labor


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26816288 - 07/10/20 11:49 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The post has long ago been deleted, but when bod first became a member here, he detailed his job and the description was that of a janitor.  Hahaha. Guess he forgot where he came from. Bod, lol.


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Anastomosis] * 5
    #26817649 - 07/11/20 03:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm in favor of a guaranteed unconditional basic income for everybody, upon which one can expand by ones line of work, but the bottom line, the basic income, should be comfortably survivable.

Want my take on capitalism?

If EVERYBODY has money to spend, all markets increase and businessmen thus can do more business.

If NOBODY has to struggle to survive, more brains are freed up to have GOOD IDEAS.

WE ALL BENEFIT.

The idea that people who for whatever reason can't work as fruitfully as most are not entitled to a basic ally decent standard of life is obscene to me. That some people have inferior work output does not make them inferior people.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26818168 - 07/11/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

so basically Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26819267 - 07/12/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Seems to me that the biggest problem with modern capitalism is that the people at the top don't want more overall, they want a bigger piece of the pie. They are willing to hurt their own profits just so they can shrink the pie and have a bigger percentage.

Which is ultimately the long term goal of wealth.

Wealth comes in different flavors. At first, wealth is a direct measure of survival. Making more money means easier survival. That's why people get less stressed as they get richer, until they hit a point around 100k per year, and the stress reduction of not having to worry about money goes away.

After that, you have a new level of wealth. Survival is taken care of, so wealth becomes a measure of, I guess you could call it "thriving". Basically, your needs are met, and the leftovers are for buying fun toys to play with. Nice cars, boats, expensive vacations, cruises, those are all toys. That's wealth up until the tens of millions of dollars.

Once you're worth at least 9 figures (hundreds of millions) you reach a new level of wealth. It's not about buying toys at that point, you can buy every toy there is. It becomes a question of wealth as power, a way to shape the future of the world. More wealth is more influence. At this point, instead of buying yourself a toy, you can buy people and their allegiance. Usually, this is done by starting companies, or donating to political campaigns. Two very different yet equivalent people for this would be, say, Elon Musk and the Koch brother. Elon Musk is shaping the future of spaceflight, by virtue of being basically privatized NASA. Whether you agree with his mythos or not, his name is in the history books. The Koch brother isn't leading technological development, but is shaping the future of the US by buying the GOP. His name is also in the history books.

Problem is, when you reach the point of wealth is power, you don't want other people to get there, because that dilutes your own power. And, having recognized that the way to wealth as power is to skip the wealth as toys stage, your goal is to screw people over in a way that they never complete the wealth as survival stage. At the same time, you need to flaunt your toys so that the people that still manage to get to the toy stage waste their money on toys instead of becoming competition in the power stage.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Kryptos]
    #26819505 - 07/12/20 02:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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― Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by c10h12n2o (07/12/20 02:03 PM)


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InvisibleAnastomosis
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #26819545 - 07/12/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lol


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Anastomosis]
    #26819557 - 07/12/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

minimum wage jobs are for teenagers and college students. If you're making minimum wage it's your own fault. The construction trades are in high demand right now so you can easily make real money. If you want a big paycheck then you need to provide real value. Even a monkey can work a cash register or make a hamburger. That's why those jobs don't pay anything.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Shenmue]
    #26819565 - 07/12/20 02:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You need to have a skill to make decent money. Learn how to weld or start building shit. It's not that difficult to get a skill. It just takes a little effort.


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InvisibleShenmue
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: qman]
    #26819579 - 07/12/20 02:32 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Vahn421 said:
Minimum wage exists for 16 year olds.

If you're still making minimum as an adult, you haven't developed any actual life skills, so go stop playing video games and learn a talent.




Many people only make 10-20% more than the minimum wage, what's the reason for that outcome?  You do realize there's only so much need for educated and highly skilled labor?  What's your solution for dealing with the tens of millions that work low skilled jobs?




Its because they go to college for the most ridiculous shit! They want to do something interesting and fun. To make good money you have to do something difficult and hard!


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Asante]
    #26819845 - 07/12/20 04:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There is a third option, like industry wide collective bargaining agreements. May not be so popular in certain places though, nor very efficient..  :protest:


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Offlineichugwindex
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: ChinChiller]
    #26820374 - 07/13/20 01:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm disgusted by the ignorance and selfishness in this thread.


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: ichugwindex]
    #26820733 - 07/13/20 09:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not super pro-union but was pointing out minimum wage and UBI are not the only two options. As an 'ex-pat of sorts', I dont see UBI in the US as an option anytime soon. Increase the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of goods/ housing on a regional basis.
In the Nordics UBI would be a potential cost saver, eliminating the administrative costs associated with state 'welfare'. The US should figure out Universal Healthcare before moving onto anything resembling UBI imo.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Shenmue]
    #26820758 - 07/13/20 10:00 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shenmue said:
minimum wage jobs are for teenagers and college students.



Why should teenagers and college students get screwed if they can do the job as well as anyone else?

Quote:

Shenmue said:
If you're making minimum wage it's your own fault. The construction trades are in high demand right now so you can easily make real money.



There are only so many jobs available in each skill.  And not everyone can do every job.

Quote:

Shenmue said:
If you want a big paycheck then you need to provide real value.



Companies aren't charities.  They don't keep people who don't provide real value.  They pay as little as they can get away with.

Quote:

Shenmue said:
Even a monkey can work a cash register or make a hamburger. That's why those jobs don't pay anything.



If that were true, then we WOULD hire monkeys to do those jobs and pay them nothing.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: ChinChiller]
    #26820776 - 07/13/20 10:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ChinChiller said:
There is a third option, like industry wide collective bargaining agreements. May not be so popular in certain places though, nor very efficient..  :protest:



Any minimum wage employer will refuse to participate.  If they don't, they'll be eaten alive by the competition.


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Enlil]
    #26820894 - 07/13/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sector/ industry wide wage agreements would solve the problem with competition, but it wouldn't be very 'American' in that it doesn't align at all with the free-market/ capitalistic nature of the United States.

I wonder which scares big business more...unions bargaining for fair wages in entire sectors of the economy or UBI?


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: ChinChiller]
    #26820904 - 07/13/20 11:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Definitely unions.

UBI (at least the plans I have seen) are paid for by regressive taxation. Usually with VAT. So the poor people will just be paying themselves. That the rich people have pushed UBI through to protect themselves is a surprise, but I suppose it hasn't gotten bad enough for them to be worried.


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: christopera]
    #26820954 - 07/13/20 11:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I am on the fence about UBI, maybe it will be necessary once everything is automated and huge swaths of the labor force is unemployed. Until then there should be a focus on paying people fairly by

A) increasing minimum wage (nationally/ by region or even by sector of the economy, which would also be interesting)

or

B) increasing the unions negotiating power in regards to wages and other rights (maternity/paternity leave, vacation days, overtime/holiday pay)

Just spitballing here, not the most pragmatic person haha

:2cents:


Edited by ChinChiller (07/13/20 11:45 AM)


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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: ChinChiller] * 3
    #26820969 - 07/13/20 11:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It would be a huge step forward to allow people to opt in to Medicare. That would benefit employers too, especially small employers. Then if we upped the minimum wage in meaningful and regular ways, some of the lowest earners would be a lot better off. Then at the federal level mandated maternity/paternity leave, something like a month or six weeks would be good. These few things would make a huge difference in the quality of life for basically the entire population.

The minimum wage in Pennsylvania is $7.25 and hasn't been raised since like 2009. Adjusting for inflation it would be like $12 an hour now. It's crazy that nothing is being done, but that last bill (2019) was stopped by Republicans.


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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: ChinChiller] * 1
    #26821398 - 07/13/20 04:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Mmmmm I'm not a fan of enterprise bargaining. It was sold here as a way to increase productivity in return for more $$ in wages.
Previously hard fought for conditions, like overtime and a 38hr week, went out the window in return for more $$.
The 38hr week was supposed to give people a better quality of life but it was soon traded for more $$ as people's expectations of a new house, new tv, new car became normalised.
In the 70's a family could survive on a single wage and pay off a home. These days both partners have to work while the kids get farmed out to daycare or grand parents, to look after outside of school hours.
Most mining jobs are 12hr shifts, which absolutely flies in the face of the company being safety first, it's bullshit, but they don't try and change it as it saves them $$ and the workers fall for it as they get to buy the new house, new tv, new car :thumbdown:


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: christopera]
    #26821501 - 07/13/20 05:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That would be great to see happen!


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #26821660 - 07/13/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stable Genius said:
Mmmmm I'm not a fan of enterprise bargaining. It was sold here as a way to increase productivity in return for more $$ in wages.
Previously hard fought for conditions, like overtime and a 38hr week, went out the window in return for more $$.
The 38hr week was supposed to give people a better quality of life but it was soon traded for more $$ as people's expectations of a new house, new tv, new car became normalised.
In the 70's a family could survive on a single wage and pay off a home. These days both partners have to work while the kids get farmed out to daycare or grand parents, to look after outside of school hours.
Most mining jobs are 12hr shifts, which absolutely flies in the face of the company being safety first, it's bullshit, but they don't try and change it as it saves them $$ and the workers fall for it as they get to buy the new house, new tv, new car :thumbdown:




Another interesting thing you didn't mention, the kids are more controlled. In the USSR, I would routinely be left home alone all day starting around age 4-5, as soon as I learned not to play with matches. Lunch was in the fridge, and I had toys and shit.

One of the first things I remember, after coming over to the US, was the cops showing up at my parents door, because they let my 13 year old self walk home from school, and left me unsupervised. My mom almost got arrested for that.

If you're too poor to afford childcare you get punished for working to afford childcare.


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InvisibleChinChiller
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Kryptos]
    #26822352 - 07/14/20 05:19 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You'd think at thirteen you would even be able to look after your younger siblings haha


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OnlineStable Genius
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Re: The Minimum Wage Machine [Re: Kryptos]
    #26822473 - 07/14/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kryptos said:
I would routinely be left home alone all day starting around age 4-5, as soon as I learned not to play with matches



:lol:

Another piece in the problem is land prices.
When I started as an apprentice, wages were $80 a week and a block of land was around $6000, in a good area too.
Quite a few of my friends paid of a block during their 4 year apprenticeship... not me though, my money was invested in motorbikes and beer :awesomenod:

A first year apprentice these days earns around $600 a week, and a comparative block of land, you wouldn't get much change out of $180 000.
Using those figures wages have risen 750% and land 3000%
The cost to build a house in the early 80's was around $30-35000. Today you could build a good size 4 bedroom for under $200 000, so pretty much around the same price rise as the rise in wages.


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