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OfflineRoamingBird
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Registered: 09/05/19
Posts: 6
Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Improved SAB design with shield/visor? * 1
    #26804701 - 07/05/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm quite new in terms of cultivation, but I've read a lot about SAB vs Glove Box, Piston effect and the theory behind how SABs work.
The picture here visualizes it really well, in my opinion:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24994197#24994197

Some people put short pipes in the holes of their SAB. I get the intention, but it feels wrong to me, due to the piston effect. If you get near the pipe (especially when touching the full length of it) you push air away which just can't move aside but have to evade along the pipe, meaning also into and out of the box, creating those unwanted currents.

I thought of an easy fix, which should actually protect the exposed holes from a SAB without having this issue. Just get a pipe with is much bigger than the hole and place it around it - or just one half above it with enough distance. Similar to shields of traffic lights.

Alteratively you could also make one long shield. See this sketch:


These are my considerations how it should theoretically behave - please let me know if it sounds reasonable or if I'm missing something:

I've also seen the variation with one big, long hole instead of two round ones, should work with both kinds.
The shield is like a small pre-SAB, reducing the floating contaminants even more, making it more safe. Since those boxes are trapezoid, it's angled upwards - which is good. Because of this air currents e.g. from breathing are redirected towards the box and then sideways. If it would be angled down, it would flow over the edge of the screen and causing turbulences - which is super bad and could even forward contaminants through the holes into the SAB.

Since the shield has enough distance to the hole(s), even if you touch the edge of the hole, you get no piston effect, since there is enough space to the wall of the sides of the shield, thus the air is still moving slowly away, no fast currents generated.
Also less/no danger touching the shield with your arm.

Of course the shield can't be too big, you have to be able to move properly / you shouldn't be touching it with your body.

What do you think of it? Does it have potential? Is it unnecessarily complicated? Is it actually a disimprovement?


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InvisibleHartford
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Registered: 11/27/19
Posts: 1,124
Loc: Tennessee
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: RoamingBird] * 1
    #26804750 - 07/05/20 07:28 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

That is a very good idea. Nice presentation. It would probably reduce contaminants.

If they made tubs shaped like that, I'd be buying one. U gonna make me a tub shaped like that?

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the current design, because it works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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OfflineTight Lunchbox
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Registered: 11/06/16
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Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: Hartford]
    #26804853 - 07/05/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

It all seems a bit unnecessary to me. I get by just fine with a regular clear plastic tote that has two arm holes cut into it.


--------------------
"it's all a joke between mom contractions and coffin fittings"


The most useful tool for noobs


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Offlineredhandmat
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Registered: 05/09/19
Posts: 463
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: Tight Lunchbox]
    #26804898 - 07/05/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Nice of course, but imo a bit overkill. I just use this:


I tape a box lid in front, stick my arms in the empty sides and do everything in there. 0 contams so far. So simplicity also works like a charm.


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OfflineRoamingBird
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Registered: 09/05/19
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Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: redhandmat]
    #26806144 - 07/06/20 02:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Hartford said:
That is a very good idea. Nice presentation. It would probably reduce contaminants.

If they made tubs shaped like that, I'd be buying one. U gonna make me a tub shaped like that?

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the current design, because it works. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.




Thanks. I strongly consider it. :smile:


Quote:

redhandmat said:
Nice of course, but imo a bit overkill.




Maybe it is, but it isn't super complicated either. I tried it with a smaller box but it failed, so I want to be extra sure with this one. :sad:
I'm new to SAB and shroom cultivation, but I have a little bit of experience in a microbiological lab with agar plates, inoculating and such. But that were different circumstances.


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Offlineredhandmat
Dude


Registered: 05/09/19
Posts: 463
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: RoamingBird]
    #26806154 - 07/06/20 03:03 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RoamingBird said:
Maybe it is, but it isn't super complicated either. I tried it with a smaller box but it failed, so I want to be extra sure with this one. :sad:
I'm new to SAB and shroom cultivation, but I have a little bit of experience in a microbiological lab with agar plates, inoculating and such. But that were different circumstances.




Maybe its your technique then? Maybe you are used to working with advanced equipment that does much of the work for you. You clean your SAB down? Never hover your hands over a plate? flame sterilize loops and all? Really think through your hand movements? Make sure to let air be as still as possible?


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OfflineRoamingBird
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Registered: 09/05/19
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Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: redhandmat]
    #26808178 - 07/07/20 01:19 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redhandmat said:
Maybe its your technique then? Maybe you are used to working with advanced equipment that does much of the work for you. You clean your SAB down? Never hover your hands over a plate? flame sterilize loops and all? Really think through your hand movements? Make sure to let air be as still as possible?




In my opinion the equipment wasn't that advanced. We had smooth surfaces which we sprayed with lysoform and one of those fancy torches with motion sensor. We were told to work always nearby the torch, since there it's low-germ. But thinking of how SABs work it's kinda strange ...
Maybe the room has really clean air due to a filtering system? :confused:
Yet moving humans are still a big contamination factor, I'd say. No hood or box, just open tables. Of course we only lifted the lids of petri dishes as little as possible, so it still protected it from stuff from above.

What I tried was really simple. Inoculation of jars, but I had to use a fruit body for it. I cut it, with a cleaned tool and put it into 3% H2O2 to disinfect the surface and let it soak for a while. Then opened the lid only a bit and slowly and put the piece into it.
I don't think the contamination came from the pieces, since when they were visible, it was like in the whole top third of the glass, not starting from where the pieces were. So I assume it got contaminated via an air current or so? Maybe while lifting the lids, "sucking" air over and into the jar?
That would mean contaminants in the air of the SAB. Although I used a towel and sprayed everything, including the air and waited so it can settle. In a room with no AC, door closed.

(This is kinda off-topic, isn't it? :blush:)


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Offlineredhandmat
Dude


Registered: 05/09/19
Posts: 463
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: RoamingBird]
    #26808192 - 07/07/20 01:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RoamingBird said:
In my opinion the equipment wasn't that advanced. We had smooth surfaces which we sprayed with lysoform and one of those fancy torches with motion sensor. We were told to work always nearby the torch, since there it's low-germ. But thinking of how SABs work it's kinda strange ...




I think its because hot air (from the torch) circulates air upward and thus kinda "works" like a flowhood (but upward direction). But of course its not very effective, however if they added antibiotics to your petri dishes and you were very careful it would be effective enough to work.

Quote:

RoamingBird said:
What I tried was really simple. Inoculation of jars, but I had to use a fruit body for it. I cut it, with a cleaned tool and put it into 3% H2O2 to disinfect the surface and let it soak for a while. Then opened the lid only a bit and slowly and put the piece into it.
I don't think the contamination came from the pieces, since when they were visible, it was like in the whole top third of the glass, not starting from where the pieces were. So I assume it got contaminated via an air current or so? Maybe while lifting the lids, "sucking" air over and into the jar?
That would mean contaminants in the air of the SAB. Although I used a towel and sprayed everything, including the air and waited so it can settle. In a room with no AC, door closed.

(This is kinda off-topic, isn't it? :blush:)




Im sorry mate but this is a recipe for growing contams :frown: Especially with the soaking in h2O2 and all. There are so many vectors for contams in this procedure. Dont you think we would all be inoculating this way if it worked? I get the want to skipping steps, especially with the hassle of agar where you have to transfer and all the time to wait etc. But not only do we make inocullants that are clean that way but even if there is a slight bacterial presence the myc we are introducing have come far along that it can outgrow them. I'd just stick to basics in the start mate :smile:


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OfflineRoamingBird
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Last seen: 6 months, 29 days
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: redhandmat]
    #26808236 - 07/07/20 03:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redhandmat said:
I think its because hot air (from the torch) circulates air upward and thus kinda "works" like a flowhood (but upward direction). But of course its not very effective, however if they added antibiotics to your petri dishes and you were very careful it would be effective enough to work.





Well, but the air coming from the side to rise up wasn't filtered. So if there were any contaminations ... *shrug*
No antibiotics in the petri dishes (if you mean the agar), since we also cultivated bacteria.


Quote:

redhandmat said:
Im sorry mate but this is a recipe for growing contams :frown: Especially with the soaking in h2O2 and all. There are so many vectors for contams in this procedure. Dont you think we would all be inoculating this way if it worked? I get the want to skipping steps, especially with the hassle of agar where you have to transfer and all the time to wait etc. But not only do we make inocullants that are clean that way but even if there is a slight bacterial presence the myc we are introducing have come far along that it can outgrow them. I'd just stick to basics in the start mate :smile:




Well, a friend with experience (both very basic/hacky as well as up to using flow hoods) said I should try it and that it should work, that it's no problem (fruit body as start). It was out of necessity, since I didn't have any other options and also nothing in the near future.
Why so many vectors?

I tried g2g too, didn't work either. It was bag to bag, so probably not the easiest, but the bag was originally sealed and wiped clean before the transfer.
I like the idea of g2g, since it's faster, easier and still pretty safe (isn't it?)


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Offlineredhandmat
Dude


Registered: 05/09/19
Posts: 463
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
Re: Improved SAB design with shield/visor? [Re: RoamingBird]
    #26808264 - 07/07/20 04:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RoamingBird said:
Well, but the air coming from the side to rise up wasn't filtered. So if there were any contaminations ... *shrug*
No antibiotics in the petri dishes (if you mean the agar), since we also cultivated bacteria.




You can hear this dude explain it at 7:37. I personally dont use it because I dont work with antibiotics often and I rather use SAB. And I just feel like its a Russian roulette kind of technique.


And regarding the vectors for contam. Well you are taking a fruit body, unsure how you got the insides to begin with. So if you cut it to start with thats a vector of contam, then dipping it in a solution before putting it to grain god knows how many things may go wrong just there.

Obviously a lot of things since these experiments have failed, no? Usual procedure (there are different ways of doing it) is not to cut but to rip, so that you can get to the insides without pushing in contams from the outside. Then with a flamed scalpel take a small bit of the insides and put to agar. Transfer edge of the agar to new plate, rince and repeat till you feel its safe and as sure as you can be that the plate is clean. And then take agar to grains.

G2G is amazing ofc, it saves a lot of time and material. But it also stresses the importance of clean spawn. Shit in leads to shit out.

Its awesome to innovate, but the results of innovations should speak for themselves. IF it works: amazing! please write the tek so we may copy you. If it doesn't: then learn and go back to the tried methods. You are skipping a lot of steps and chucking it up to the failures of SAB as a concept. A method tried for many years on thousands of grows.


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