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OfflineJustweed
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Pinset mostly aborts?
    #26806717 - 07/06/20 11:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So I've had issues with aborts ever since I started growing again. I've had decent pinsets that have maybe 50%+ just abort while still tiny pins. The tubs themselves still put out ~4oz dry per flush which isn't bad, but having to clean up the aborts on the tubs is a huge chore, and now I have a quart jar jam packed with aborts that I don't know what to do with...So! Here's some pics, what should I do to avoid these pinsets full of aborts? Typically I make my tubs with a 50/50 mix of composted manure and coco coir which I pasteurize for ~1hr at 160-180*F. My subs can go for 4+ flushes, especially if I'm not rotating them out or just letting them sit. Temperatures in my grow area hover around 76-78*f. I fan my tubs 3-5x a day. I have 6-8 holes on the sides of my tubs covered in micropore paper tape to allow passive air exchange, with a fan and air purifier running in the area to keep air moving.


This shows a tub that's just started flushing. A decent pinset has formed.


Same tub a day or two later, you can see the caps starting to darken as the pins abort.


Same tub a few days later, I did a bit of abort clean up but there were just so many...You can see the remnants of the aborts, a large portion of the pinset just dead :frown:


Another tub showing another decent pinset. This tub is now mostly aborted.


And this is yet another tub showing mid flush, mostly aborts, but with some popping up gettin' big. This tub is Eatyu's method, verm and coir mix.

I'm thinking about switching from pore tape to polyfil/eat's fish filters, I have a feeling this is due to lack of FAE, but I'm fanning 3-5 times a day so not sure exactly what else I could do except maybe leave lids slightly open every day to let more passive air exchange occur.

Before anyone says it, no, these tubs are not contaminated. Grains are clean, different strains, different batches. No trich or bacteria in these. You can see no myc 'piss' on them. Surface conditions look fine to me. The last tub that had these mass aborts went 4 flushes and I just tossed it out to make space for more tubs, not a sign of any contam on it, in it, or under it.


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OfflineRapjack
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26806727 - 07/06/20 11:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Interesting... How are you lighting your tub?


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Rapjack]
    #26806738 - 07/06/20 11:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rapjack said:
Interesting... How are you lighting your tub?



I've never bothered with lighting in individual tubs, but I have 2 6k LED lights in the top of my tent that shine through the paper, so they do get some light, and they get light when they are opened to fan...Maybe I need to get some magnetic light bars for the lids?


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OfflineRapjack
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26806801 - 07/06/20 11:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That could definitely be it, maybe someone more experienced can chime
in. I once grew some tubs that had grey lids instead of white, they let much less light in and I remember them having lots of knots but piss poor pinsets. If you placed the LEDs closer to your tubs you'll get a lot more light. I put mine about three inches above the lid.


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Rapjack]
    #26806864 - 07/06/20 12:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I guess I might as well try, I'll grab some under cabinet lights and try those out.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26806908 - 07/06/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Got any pics of your agar?


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OfflineRapjack
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26806933 - 07/06/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Perfect, that's basically the sort of light I use too. If you get one long enough you could do two tubs per.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Rapjack]
    #26806936 - 07/06/20 12:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Rapjack said:
That could definitely be it, maybe someone more experienced can chime
in. I once grew some tubs that had grey lids instead of white, they let much less light in and I remember them having lots of knots but piss poor pinsets. If you placed the LEDs closer to your tubs you'll get a lot more light. I put mine about three inches above the lid.





I highly doubt its light if it gets enough amb light in general.
what purifier are you using? is it some ionizer thing?


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OfflineRapjack
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: F. 3]
    #26806954 - 07/06/20 12:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

F. 3 said:
Quote:

Rapjack said:
That could definitely be it, maybe someone more experienced can chime
in. I once grew some tubs that had grey lids instead of white, they let much less light in and I remember them having lots of knots but piss poor pinsets. If you placed the LEDs closer to your tubs you'll get a lot more light. I put mine about three inches above the lid.





I highly doubt its light if it gets enough amb light in general.
what purifier are you using? is it some ionizer thing?




Didn't even think about that. Ionizers are toxic to all oxygen breathing life if I'm not mistaken.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Rapjack]
    #26806975 - 07/06/20 01:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Something to do with splitting the Oxygen molecules, don't remember :shrug:
but that thing is not good for any life form or at least for what this all about.
I use it to sanitize the room I live laugh and grow in from time to time, does a good job, but I take every living thing out of there.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26806996 - 07/06/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think excessive aborts is caused by not having enough moisture in the substrate to support the pinset.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26807049 - 07/06/20 01:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I never had a problem with this over tons if grows until recently, almost definitely heat related in my case.

Some cultures seem prone to it also. My worst was Amazonian which the ones that survived looked just like yours.

This is after harvesting like 300g mature ones, would’ve been an amazing canopy.


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LAGM2020


Edited by A.k.a (07/07/20 06:14 PM)


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26807368 - 07/06/20 03:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

F. 3 said:
I highly doubt its light if it gets enough amb light in general.
what purifier are you using? is it some ionizer thing?




I have a purifier with just a small HEPA filter, but it does have a UV-C light built into it. I'll try deactivating the light for my next few runs and see if that helps at all.

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
I think excessive aborts is caused by not having enough moisture in the substrate to support the pinset.



I don't believe it's a moisture issue, usually when I crack my tubs to check if they're ready for fruiting the lids have tons of moisture that I end up wiping off as part of my initiation for fruiting. The side walls of my tubs stay thoroughly moist, and when I ran hydrometers in them they'd be mid-high 90's all day/night. Plus I do end up with some very large fruits, and my harvest weights are consistent from tub to tub and strain to strain. It's just that the weight is all compacted into say 10-20 fruits rather than the 100 pins that form and die off.

I've got lights coming tomorrow, fish filter coming tomorrow, and I'm going to deactivate the UV-C. Hopefully that can help amend the issue. I've got 2 tubs that are going to be starting fruiting in the next 2-3 days that were spawned using Eat's method, which has produced these amazing pinsets, so I'm assuming I'll have 2 more tubs with similar pinsets coming in.


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: LadysKnight]
    #26807381 - 07/06/20 03:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
I never had a problem with this over tons a gross until recently, almost definitely heat related in my case.

Some cultures seem prone to it also. My worst was Amazonian which the ones that survived looked just like yours.

This is after harvesting like 300g mature ones, would’ve been an amazing canopy.




Yea I didn't run into a ton of aborts until I started having a ton of pins...I'm using Eat's method for tubs now and I'm seeing super dense pinsets from it. Before I'd get maybe 20-30 aborts per tub, now it's like 70+.

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
Got any pics of your agar?



I'm not using agar, I've been doing g2g for my strains for a bit now. None of the tubs pictured were produced using agar. I do my cloning directly to grain. I'm lazy and it works well for me :laugh:


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InvisibleLadysKnight
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26807973 - 07/06/20 09:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Justweed said:

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
Got any pics of your agar?



I'm not using agar, I've been doing g2g for my strains for a bit now. None of the tubs pictured were produced using agar. I do my cloning directly to grain. I'm lazy and it works well for me :laugh:




Contaminated spawn is a possibility.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: LadysKnight] * 1
    #26807989 - 07/06/20 09:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Are you keeping these in a grow tent? If so that’s part of the issue, they most likely are not getting enough FAE. Closet would be bad but a grow tent is a gonna make things much worse IMO.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26808261 - 07/07/20 04:22 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:

Contaminated spawn is a possibility.




contaminated with aborts? :lol:
would not say so, unless fcked up genes or smth, I don't think that't the deal too.


Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Are you keeping these in a grow tent? If so that’s part of the issue, they most likely are not getting enough FAE. Closet would be bad but a grow tent is a gonna make things much worse IMO.




:whathesaid:


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26808441 - 07/07/20 07:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LadysKnight said:
Contaminated spawn is a possibility.



Nope, this is why I mention that these tubs can go 4+ flushes easily with no contams. I also have multiple jars of spawn that are months old from the genetics that are g2g'd with no contams. Also you can see from the pictures there's no myc 'piss'/antibodies, so no sign of contams anywhere. Yesterday I tossed 3 tubs, 2 of which had put out 5 flushes and were over a month old, all of which got broken up as I was tossing them out and showed no signs of contams.

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Are you keeping these in a grow tent? If so that’s part of the issue, they most likely are not getting enough FAE. Closet would be bad but a grow tent is a gonna make things much worse IMO.



Yes, they're in a grow tent. I have an air purifier and a fan that is moving air around in the room, and when I go in for manual FAE every 2-3 hours I leave the door open so fresh air comes in. I have oxygen producing plants (a lot) in the area, so when the door opens the o2 levels are going up. I'm thinking about putting another fan in one of the ports in the tent with a filter hooked to it to bring in fresh air, maybe I'll even hook it straight to one of the other grow tents to bring in high o2 air...


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Keep 'em high and tight guys....


Edited by Justweed (07/07/20 07:56 AM)


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26808509 - 07/07/20 08:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That all sounds...over complicated.


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26809476 - 07/07/20 05:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
That all sounds...over complicated.



A fan and an air purifier? It's basically a closet, I have my grow tent for my plants next to it, so I just hooked up one of the exhaust fans to the mushroom tent and stuffed a filter in it. Hopefully the increase in O2 helps as well!

Hooked up some lights in the tubs today, opened 2 new ones today, so they've got lights, plus Eat's fish filters, plus the increased O2...Damn things were spawned 7 days ago and already have a nice set of knots so we'll see how they do.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed] * 1
    #26809512 - 07/07/20 05:19 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Simple is a tub with holes in it and material over the holes to provide resistance. Even simpler is a tub with smaller holes that doesn’t even need a thing done to it. Maybe a light on a timer. Anything more is over complicating it. You don’t need a tent and you certainly don’t need a bunch of extra shit added to that so the tent doesn’t fuck everything up.

Simple tub (notice the pinset)



Even easier



Anything beyond this is likely more complicated than it needs to be.


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26809550 - 07/07/20 05:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Simple is a tub with holes in it and material over the holes to provide resistance. Even simpler is a tub with smaller holes that doesn’t even need a thing done to it. Maybe a light on a timer. Anything more is over complicating it. You don’t need a tent and you certainly don’t need a bunch of extra shit added to that so the tent doesn’t fuck everything up.

Simple tub (notice the pinset)



Even easier



Anything beyond this is likely more complicated than it needs to be.



I have to have the tent for a controlled environment, I don't just have it for fun. If you look at my posts, my tubs are as you say, tubs with holes in them with some resistance. My tubs right now put out ~4 ounces dry per flush, I'm just trying to achieve a more even pinset with fewer aborts. There's a difference between ideal for me and working for me, and I'm shooting for ideal now that I've got things working well. With the advice I got in this thread I made 3 changes that might help boost my tubs to 5-6oz dry per flush, more towards ideal, and with no more work on my part other than the 5 minutes it took me to move my other tent's exhaust and the 30 seconds it took to put lights on my lids. If I could ditch the tent I would, 10 years ago when I first grew I didn't need it and everything worked fine just like I'm doing it now....Again, just working toward ideal now.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26809568 - 07/07/20 05:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Those tubs both put out 9-10oz first flush. The tub should be controlling the environment for the most part. If you absolutely must grow with a tent then you know your business. But if it was a choice between growing in a tent and not growing in a tent, I’m going to do whatever I can to not grow in the tent.


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26809580 - 07/07/20 05:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Those tubs both put out 9-10oz first flush. The tub should be controlling the environment for the most part. If you absolutely must grow with a tent then you know your business. But if it was a choice between growing in a tent and not growing in a tent, I’m going to do whatever I can to not grow in the tent.



Yea unfortunately moving is not an option at this point :frown: BUT! If I can make the tent environment work as a nontent environment, maybe I can hit those numbers myself :smile:


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26809600 - 07/07/20 06:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Your climate isn’t that bad, if that’s what you’re referring to. If your tubs are drying out you’re not dialing them in correctly. My RH is very low especially in winter. It’s called getting the balance achieved. Sometimes it takes a top layer or a slightly lower spawn ratio to achieve but it can be done. Your tubs are soaking man.


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26809639 - 07/07/20 06:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Your climate isn’t that bad, if that’s what you’re referring to. If your tubs are drying out you’re not dialing them in correctly. My RH is very low especially in winter. It’s called getting the balance achieved. Sometimes it takes a top layer or a slightly lower spawn ratio to achieve but it can be done. Your tubs are soaking man.



Maybe I need to reduce my field capacity slightly when making subs...I just switched from loose coir to compact bricks of coir for my subs, and I'm copying Eat's recipe for substrate to the T.
My humidity outside my tent is less than ideal, as is my temperature. In the winter it'd be far too cold to grow without a tent, or I'd be paying a lot and pulling way more power than I'd want to be for heating.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26809724 - 07/07/20 07:11 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Do you wear a coat in your house in the winter?


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OfflineJustweed
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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26809752 - 07/07/20 07:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Do you wear a coat in your house in the winter?



I could down in the grow area! It's a solid 10*+ less than the upstairs.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26809837 - 07/07/20 08:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well I guess that’s a rough situation, good luck with your spaceship :shrug:


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26810244 - 07/08/20 03:42 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Are you keeping these in a grow tent? If so that’s part of the issue, they most likely are not getting enough FAE. Closet would be bad but a grow tent is a gonna make things much worse IMO.




So low FAE causes higher amounts of pins?


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Justweed]
    #26810351 - 07/08/20 05:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

hope that the reason was the uv-c thing running and u gonna make some nice :mushroom::mushroom::mushroom:
:popcorn:


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26810467 - 07/08/20 07:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Are you keeping these in a grow tent? If so that’s part of the issue, they most likely are not getting enough FAE. Closet would be bad but a grow tent is a gonna make things much worse IMO.




So low FAE causes higher amounts of pins?




I know that my higher amount of pins is from changing my spawn method, having a pseudo casing during spawning like how Eatyu does it has double or tripled the amount of pins I get, between my tubs that were getting half as many or fewer pins were spawned just tossing everything in the tub and mixing, and I'd still get some aborts, but nothing to make a thread about... now though I'm getting a ridiculous amount of pins and a ridiculous amount of aborts!


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26810615 - 07/08/20 08:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Are you keeping these in a grow tent? If so that’s part of the issue, they most likely are not getting enough FAE. Closet would be bad but a grow tent is a gonna make things much worse IMO.




So low FAE causes higher amounts of pins?




No, the pinset is the result of good genetics in good pinning conditions. FAE requirements to satisfy the tropic response for pinnning is pretty low, hence why people can get pins on their agar. However low FAE will contribute to huge pinsets aborting. Stale air allows for standing water (via condensation) to form on the caps which leads to aborts or Pseudomonas setting in.


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26810837 - 07/08/20 11:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I've found that to be the case too. When I see a normal pin set I just keep the tub as is. If I have a dense pinset then I up the FAE. I still  have aborts but not nearly as much as if I treated it like a normal tub.

I have pretty shitty environment that goes from 70 at night to 79 in the day and it's right under a window AC and behind a box fan. I'm using eat's pinky filter tek and having good luck with it so far (probably 7 months now)and pulling .75 - 1 oz per qt of spawn first flush.

Just had a first flush of 1.125oz per qt on a good batch of Rusty Whytes this morning!


Edited by Jive Ass Turkey (07/08/20 11:19 AM)


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Re: Pinset mostly aborts? [Re: Jive Ass Turkey]
    #26822852 - 07/14/20 11:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

See what drives me nuts is I'll not check a tub for too long after spawning, I'll look at it and it'll have a super dense pinset already with no FAE, then once I start FAE, I'll get mass aborts and then get giant fruits...I'm still getting average 1oz per quart of spawn on first flushes, but it's in massive fruits...
So far the new tubs I have with the fish filters are going alright, plus the lights seem to have a small effect! We'll see if things continue!


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Keep 'em high and tight guys....


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