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Invisiblenooneman
Male

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,593
Loc: Utah
Re: Hormones [Re: Tantrika]
    #26805481 - 07/05/20 03:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

This is a variation of the question of what to do about drugs more generally.

I think people shouldn't be prevented from getting what they want, but they should have to take training in it and get some kind of license (to prove that they went through the training), and after that they should only be allowed to get so much at a time. Their use might be monitored by their doctor, but their doctor shouldn't have the ability to say no, only to monitor their use and make suggestions and stuff like that.

The amount available to purchase at a time might be based on weight in much the same way that scientifically the dose of a drug is based on a person's weight. In this way, for something like steroids or estrogen you could appropriately dose the person without going overboard. There might even be some kind of application for an exception to the dosage rule, or maybe if you go through a doctor and get a prescription then you could get an exception, etc.

In teenagers, it should probably require a prescription just because the body is still developing and lots of stuff that's safe as an adult is dangerous to a developing child.


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Offlinebendychicken
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Re: Hormones [Re: nooneman]
    #26805611 - 07/05/20 04:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hormones are serious business. That said it should be legal just like other drugs. To OP, you know if you take a bunch of estrogen it drastically increases your risk of prostate cancer right?


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InvisibleDemonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress
Trans-female


Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW Flag
Re: Hormones [Re: bendychicken]
    #26805787 - 07/05/20 07:00 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hormone Therapy has saved my life to be honest.


--------------------
The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable
Is the violence that we do to ourselves
When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.


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InvisibleDemonic_Chronic
The Plague Doctress
Trans-female


Registered: 08/10/08
Posts: 4,199
Loc: PNW Flag
Re: Hormones [Re: bendychicken]
    #26805792 - 07/05/20 07:04 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bendychicken said:
Hormones are serious business. That said it should be legal just like other drugs. To OP, you know if you take a bunch of estrogen it drastically increases your risk of prostate cancer right?




It's literally at no higher of an average % than if your not on hormones. Its all about ROA and how well you take care of your body, just like normal. Breathing gives you fucking cancer.


--------------------
The Real violence, the violence that I realized was unforgiveable
Is the violence that we do to ourselves
When we are too afraid to be, who we really are.


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Offlinemorrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
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Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,378
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 10 days, 7 hours
Re: Hormones [Re: Demonic_Chronic]
    #26805794 - 07/05/20 07:05 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Demonic_Chronic said:
Quote:

bendychicken said:
Hormones are serious business. That said it should be legal just like other drugs. To OP, you know if you take a bunch of estrogen it drastically increases your risk of prostate cancer right?




It's literally at no higher of an average % than if your not on hormones. Its all about ROA and how well you take care of your body, just like normal. Breathing gives you fucking cancer.



ROA is a big deal IMO, poor people frequently cant afford to get hormone therapy in safer formulations, in my country anyway


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InvisibleAsante
Mage
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,957
Re: Hormones [Re: Demonic_Chronic]
    #26805821 - 07/05/20 07:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I weigh 375 lbs.

I'm a mule pulling a very heavy cart.

Very small, infrequent doses of anabolic steroids help me on my days of most strenuous exercise and if I get an injury, pain and healing time gets cut in half.

It strengthens my muscles, ligaments, tendons, bones, connective tissues, augments regeneration of cartilage and to some degree improves my lean mass to fat ratio.

I am able to exercise harder, be less injury prone and if injured, recover quicker and better.

I'd be a fool not to take an occasional 5mg of Metandienone in my situation.

What a bodybuilder takes in one day would last me a month.



In parts of asia, where they are freely available, steroids are used by construction workers and other males who bear heavy burdens.

Its rational. It enables bodies to give it more, for people who need to give it more.

For this reason also doctors prescribe them to severe burn victims and people who have seriously weakened because of AIDS, cancer or other wasting diseases.

Hooray! For males there is a class of drugs that, if rightly used, improves their bodies.
Why not use it on a far wider scale than now?

If you're an adult guy, and you sprained your ankle badly, why not a week of low dose anabolic steroid? The pain decreases and healing increases. Why prescribe ibuprofen that just lessens pain and helps swelling some?

Microdosing the "Breakfast of Champions"


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleShiithead
Your Huckleberry
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Registered: 04/05/13
Posts: 9,997
Loc: God's Flat Green Earth
Re: Hormones [Re: Asante] * 1
    #26806078 - 07/06/20 12:43 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'd really like to use steroids from rolling ankle so many times. It's getting pretty loose.


--------------------

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Psalm 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Revelation 3:11
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.


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Offlinebendychicken
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Re: Hormones [Re: Shiithead]
    #26806230 - 07/06/20 05:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

" they are freely available, steroids are used by construction workers and other males who bear heavy burdens."

You're talking to an example of said people now :smile:
I do get side effects that have to be managed and get blood tests regularly to make sure nothing is getting out of wack. I recently had to take a break because my blood pressure was shooting up.

High estrogen levels do substantially increase your risk of prostate cancer. If you believe estrogen is keeping you from killing yourself then obviously that's the lessor of 2 evils. The studies I've seen don't seem to indicate a change in the astronomically high suicide rates in trans people on HRT vs those not on HRT. On the other hand, one of the reasons I started HRT was low estrogen(for a man) because I felt like shit and was borderline suicidal. Having normal male estrogen levels made huge difference for me. So I'm willing to accept the possibility that if trans women actually do have a female brain (though I'm not sold on that yet) taking estrogen makes them feel better. You do you ma'am.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Hormones [Re: bendychicken] * 1
    #26806253 - 07/06/20 05:59 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I was on TRT for a few years. In the end it was more of a hassle than it was worth for me. I dropped the Dr after a while due to the endless tests, and constantly getting shuffled from one Dr. to another.

If I could have bought pharmaceutical testosterone without having to get it shipped in sketchy packages from China, I would have kept using it. I only saw benefits. They use too much preservative in what I was buying though, and I was worried about developing scar tissue in my thigh, so I cycled off relatively easily with (iirc) a month or so of Clomid and nolvadex.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code


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Invisiblepirate-blues
Female

Registered: 10/15/12
Posts: 13,695
Re: Hormones [Re: Shiithead] * 3
    #26806271 - 07/06/20 06:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know. Hormones are powerful things and can do all sorts of fucked up shit(ooorrr, make you feel normal when all is right.). It's worth mentioning now that I have zero experience with hormones/steroids/etc.(edit; oh i guess i am on hormonal birth control, disregard lol. i'm one of the lucky ones that doesn't seem to have a tough time, it can fuck shit up for certain people for sure)

On one hand I'd like to just see easier medical access for trans people, but I get that it's a bit of a pipe dream for any significant minority in the current climate, and it's a work in progress. Which doesn't help people who are suffering now - and it doesn't address people who are using them for performance enhancement/fitness.


Ultimately my concern comes down to consumer safety and harm reduction. People are gonna get their hands on this stuff one way or another, especially for someone who needs it to feel and function normally, regardless. I certainly don't feel it should be criminalized, and like Blind Ass mentioned upthread, harm reduction and education, and appropriate caution is key. I certainly don't think it should be criminalized. But some consumer minded safety measures need to be put in place - stuff that doesn't just push it all to the black market and make it even more unsafe to begin with, which is a tricky dance.


I'd like to see some more medical professions focused on harm reduction emerging tbh. I think they're sorely needed. Not doctors, but qualified, nonjudgemental, medical professionals who've been through the appropriate training who act as a resource for people with questions. Even just as a sector of the emerging telehealth field(which I know here in the states, has become the defacto system now for everyone who doesn't absolutely need in-patient services).


Edited by pirate-blues (07/06/20 01:10 PM)


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InvisibleAsante
Mage
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,957
Re: Hormones [Re: pirate-blues]
    #26806689 - 07/06/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm curious about the mood effects of estrogen.  I am well aware of those of androgens, but curious about those of the flip side.

Will addition of estrogen turn a cis-male into a sweetie or a bitch?

I was curious enough to order some :rainbowcloud:

Sex changes come over time, gradually, but steroidal mood effects are mostly near immediate.

A single dose wont induce breast formation :eek:

You know you're a druggie when.. you order some estrogen to get in touch with your feminine side :lol:

It'll probably turn me into a complete bitch :grin:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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OfflineIce9
3X Ban Lotto Champion
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,319
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 13 hours, 37 minutes
Re: Hormones [Re: Asante]
    #26806724 - 07/06/20 11:10 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Here's :2cents: if you are in a place that makes it illegal, or places ridiculous obstacles to obtain legal hormones, people will go to the black market.  Problem with that, is due to the nature of how a single hormone (especially upstream hormones like testosterone and estrogen) effect the body, pretty regular blood work is required to monitor the down stream effects.

TL;DR If people can't get legally they'll get illegally. Hormones have large effects, careful blood concentration monitoring is warranted, getting it legit is best.


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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OfflineIce9
3X Ban Lotto Champion
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Registered: 03/20/14
Posts: 11,319
Loc: daterapeville,USA
Last seen: 13 hours, 37 minutes
Re: Hormones [Re: Asante]
    #26806734 - 07/06/20 11:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I'm curious about the mood effects of estrogen.  I am well aware of those of androgens, but curious about those of the flip side.

Will addition of estrogen turn a cis-male into a sweetie or a bitch?

I was curious enough to order some :rainbowcloud:

Sex changes come over time, gradually, but steroidal mood effects are mostly near immediate.

A single dose wont induce breast formation :eek:

You know you're a druggie when.. you order some estrogen to get in touch with your feminine side :lol:

It'll probably turn me into a complete bitch :grin:




Not a personal attack, I've seen you mention that you are on the heavier side of things, which means your estrogen levels are probably out of range for male (high side) as fat increases estrogen production.  (sorry if I made incorrect assumptions in this)


--------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Brenard Shaw


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InvisibleApollyphelion
Dungeon Master/Princess(1009)
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Registered: 03/15/07
Posts: 16,757
Loc: Festival of Deaths
Re: Hormones [Re: Ice9]
    #26806741 - 07/06/20 11:17 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

As I am one of The Others, A Freak Among Freaks, or as a trans woman,
I say let people "fuck them selves up"
with hormones
This issue is purely a heartstring issue
people are actually okay with a certain % of "necessary harm"
cars, surgery deaths, this kind of argument
appeals to the people scared of flying when yes
HUNDREDS DIE from planecrashes!!! (are hundreds per year perma fucked from HRT?)
is this even an issue?
Not really, IMO. Let the small percentage of fuckers fuck up
This kind of issue results in unnecessary regulation
by people who have no clout in this walk of life
Why do we care so much about a small percentage of "mistakes" in one issue
but not others? THOSE PESKY EMOTIONS:
To the people that made mistakes with hormones: Sorry, but thats life.
Same to the people who wanted to get on a plane.
But like planes, a lot of this shit is reasoned out to be generally safe
for a large %.
sometimes the cure to a mistake is to TOUGHEN UP BUTTERCUP
and dont ruin the fun for everyone else.


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book


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InvisibleAsante
Mage
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,957
Re: Hormones [Re: Ice9]
    #26806751 - 07/06/20 11:20 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Ice9 said:
Quote:

Asante said:
I'm curious about the mood effects of estrogen.  I am well aware of those of androgens, but curious about those of the flip side.

Will addition of estrogen turn a cis-male into a sweetie or a bitch?

I was curious enough to order some :rainbowcloud:

Sex changes come over time, gradually, but steroidal mood effects are mostly near immediate.

A single dose wont induce breast formation :eek:

You know you're a druggie when.. you order some estrogen to get in touch with your feminine side :lol:

It'll probably turn me into a complete bitch :grin:




Not a personal attack, I've seen you mention that you are on the heavier side of things, which means your estrogen levels are probably out of range for male (high side) as fat increases estrogen production.  (sorry if I made incorrect assumptions in this)





No thats true and probably a factor in why I'm so damn nice :grin: but I'd like to experience the effect of a sudden estrogen spike, just as I know the effect of a sudden testosterone spike.

Fat cells aromatize testosterone to estrogen, thats true!


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
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Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,151
Re: Hormones [Re: Asante]
    #26806907 - 07/06/20 12:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Endocrinology is one of the most complex and least understood medical science there is next to neurology.

There's 50 hormones in the human body. Not 2 or 3. And they effect one another. For example estrogen and testosterone can stimulate cortisol production.


Nutrition and even your thoughts effect hormones as well.


Add on top of that the long neglect of science in as far as women's reproductive medicine and the newness of significant popultions of people on HRT and... there's alot of risk and alot of it can't even be named.



IME there's also alot of ignorance in your average doctor. My doctors couldn't understand why hormonal birth control made me batshit insane.


And there's also the interest fact that most women are admitted to mental hospitals after a breakdown when they are in the PMS phase of the hormonal cycle (yeah guys it's not actually made up.)

Are those cycles necessary for the health of an individual? Or are they counterproductive? Are we hurting people by trying to blunt them or not taking them into account when they're on HRT.


We don't know. There's so much we don't know.



PS high estrogen made me a psychotic bitch so don't think we can make meatheads chill out with that alone.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: Hormones [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #26807110 - 07/06/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

And Cause and effect between hormones and the body isn’t all linear & clean or clear in many regards- the effects branch and loop back on other causes leading to more effects and things of that nature over and over, etc etc.  Chemistry is wild, nature’s magic.

Something akin to hysteresis going on with all that...

*the phenomenon in which the value of a physical property lags behind changes in the effect causing it, as for instance when magnetic induction lags behind the magnetizing force.

And then some...


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,151
Re: Hormones [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26807741 - 07/06/20 07:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yep. Not saying it's bad, just that people should be aware that they're guinea pigs.

And no one can ever say for sure how a particular drug is going to interact with their own unique body chemistry. That goes for well studied drugs too.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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Offlinebendychicken
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Re: Hormones [Re: Ice9] * 1
    #26807808 - 07/06/20 07:45 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

"Will addition of estrogen turn a cis-male into a sweetie or a bitch?"
Both, in the space of an hour or 2. E2 causes mood swings.


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Offlinebendychicken
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Re: Hormones [Re: bendychicken]
    #26807861 - 07/06/20 08:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2840927/

However, there is a concern over chronic use of finasteride and development of prostate cancer. Through its effect on hormonal (estrogens vs. androgens) balance and immune surveillance of tumor cells, finasteride increases the risk of prostate cancer. In many studies it has been shown that the prostatic hyperplasia and cancer develop frequently in the hormonal milieu of estrogen excess over androgens. This hormonal imbalance is normally seen in aging males. Finasteride increases the circulating levels of testosterone which is peripherally aromatized to estrogens. Thus the use of finasteride in older males further shifts the hormonal balance towards estrogen excess. The expression of aromatase is also up-regulated in prostatic hyperplasia and cancer."


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