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OfflineGypsy Boy
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Registered: 03/17/17
Posts: 4,501
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Last seen: 3 months, 12 days
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: Gypsy Boy] * 1
    #26803694 - 07/04/20 02:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:



05/31/03


Once upon a rhyme, in a far away place
There was a small thought, just drifting through space
It pondered for aeons and suddenly realized
The nature of thought, and meaning of life
To always evolve, experience and learn
Forever and ever - with love and discern

It took upon itself to create space and time
And then thought to itself, "My, this is quite fine"
But after awhile it became rather bored
And simply could not learn a thing anymore
But then all at once had a brilliant insight
"I will divide myself into an army of light!"

This was rather ingenious you see
To experience mutliple subjective realities
For trillions of years they surfed through the sea
A vast pool of souls that were pure energy
Pitching and rolling, and morphing like waves
There was simply no end to the synergy game

They knew not of hatred, nor malice or pain
But only the bliss that eternity brang
But then once again it reached critical mass
And could no longer learn from the inner cosmic class
So in all of it's glory and divine insight
It sought once again to make it's plan airtight

"I will devise stars, planets, and moons
They all will revolve perfectly in tune
And upon their surface I will incorporate
Millions of cycles in harmonic ways
As above, so below, from atom to space
And this shall be called the physical plane"

This will be a place of polar extremes
The final last stop for souls and their teams
"My divided selves will fall far from grace
To see through the eyes of angelic disdain"
To learn from mistakes is to always improve
"Thus I shall teach the darkness to groove"

And so it created a wonderous place
Full of experiences, pleasure and pain
And within every singly thing
Encoded itself, complete, perfectly
Within the elements the endless synergy
A perfect balance to last eternally

The Sun, the flowers, oceans and trees
The crystals, the mountains, the birds and the bees
All this is so perfect to experience this realm
The symbiotic cycle of nature at the helm
Within every being the potential is there
Omniscient creation with the original they share

But what could complete this magnificient feat?
A vehicle for spirit to learn from this treat
A physical body, as perfect as mine
To taste of this world which I have designed
A limited possession of matter and breath
For which to perceive all life until death

Human as one, yes we are the same
Separate illusion, until we reclaim
The reconnection of spiritual sight
The next stage of death - a body of light
So come sacred one - be not afraid
Thy consciousness will is simply to aid

So with every joy and every tear
With every doubt and every fear
Remember the source from whence you came
Human as one yes we are the same





--------------------





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OfflineLazaro
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Registered: 12/20/19
Posts: 26
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26803717 - 07/04/20 02:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

This is a great threat. At least for how it's developing so far.

As for my personal beliefs, I was initially not religious, in fact, I was quite derisive of it (I hadn't been introduced to it at all, honestly). Nonetheless, since childhood I was always fascinated and quite open to the idea that there could be "something more", let's say, "magical", in the world. I don't recall having had any supernatural experiences, at least not "clear" ones.

At the end of my teens I started reading a lot. Seeing that many people I admired had been religious, I started having a lot more respect for religions in general. Eventually I started reading and learning about religion (Buddhism, Hinduism, but lately mostly Christianity) as well as mythology, and currently I am fascinated by the topic.

Since then, and the psychedelic experiences have had a bit to do with it, I would consider myself religious. I can't say what religion I am, though; I am still not sure what I believe in. This is why I can't say "My thoughts about God"; I feel there is something out there, and I've had some very strange experiences, but for now, that's it.


I know what the people who don't feel comfortable with the word "religion" mean, but it is in fact a beautiful word. If you look at the etimology (I specially like the second idea):

Quote:

The classical explanation of the word, traced to Cicero himself, derives it from re- (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligo "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re- (again) + ligare or "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.[6][7]


(Wikipedia)

I think being religious or not is very related to personality. I know some people would like to label people who feel "religiously" as "mentally ill", but I believe they are not right.

And then I'm convinced that trips vary A LOT from person to person, regarding this matter of "God" too. Some people can't feel "God" in their sober state but can sometimes through psychedelics; others can never feel any sort of "God"; others can feel a God in their sober state and most likely have a more intense feeling of it during psychedelics OR perhaps they will precisely have an experience full of doubt, etc.

I've had some very strange experiences myself... in my life and through psychedelics. Specially lately. They lean more and more to the idea that things that happen to us are not completely random, even though there doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation for this. And things seem to get much less random (in my experience) when I'm under the spell of the mushrooms.

My trips, even at quite low doses, seem "guided" by some force, and allowing myself to be guided has always given beautiful results (we could imagine it is my unconscious who is guiding me; but then again, the final message of Christianity for example is that God is inside of us).

Surprised to see so many people who like Peterson here. I disagree with him strongly on some things, but then I agree on many others and I almost always find him very interesting to listen to. Some people say his weakness is when he deals with religion (as he never answers directly, and has a lot of doubts himself), but I'd say it's what interests me the most of him. In general, I like his attitude... He seems on a constant quest of self improvement, and I think these recent events in his life (it seems he almost died) will transform him for the good.


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OfflineThe_BassCannon
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Registered: 10/31/14
Posts: 148
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: Lazaro]
    #26805520 - 07/05/20 03:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

God is an idea/thought/notion, something that is taught/learned or the noise made when one is referencing the god idea.


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Offlinedlj403
Stranger

Registered: 07/16/18
Posts: 95
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: The_BassCannon]
    #26806336 - 07/06/20 07:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

If there is a god, then I'm gonna kick him in the nuts if I ever meet him for what 2020 turned out to be!


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OfflineLosTresOjos
Humano
I'm a teapot
Registered: 09/18/18
Posts: 1,347
Loc: Hurling Through Space
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: dlj403]
    #26806938 - 07/06/20 12:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I recently saw an interview with Jordan. I don't know how to embed a videos but he was talking to Dave rubin...I know.

  He was claiming that although Sam Harris is an atheist he still follows christian values.  Rubin asked him to explain, Jordan said that because Sam doesn't steal or murder that he is following christian teachings...

  This is the stupidity of jordan and religion.


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Registered: 09/05/18
Posts: 1,840
Loc: Westworld
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #26807019 - 07/06/20 01:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LosTresOjos said:
I recently saw an interview with Jordan. I don't know how to embed a videos but he was talking to Dave rubin...I know.

  He was claiming that although Sam Harris is an atheist he still follows christian values.  Rubin asked him to explain, Jordan said that because Sam doesn't steal or murder that he is following christian teachings...

  This is the stupidity of jordan and religion.




Yes I've seen that one. I think that is oversimplifying it. Jordan is claiming that western societies are built on a religious foundation (for better or for worse). Thus, Sam Harris, who was raised in the western style, has a foundation that is rooted in christianity.

But I agree with you. Peterson does hold religion quite strongly and thus says some questionable things. For example, he claims that even atheists have beliefs. And although that is true, atheists have beliefs about the world, he misconstrues that as proving that atheists are living a contradiction (even though the beliefs we hold are of a completely different nature. Like, I believe the supermarket is open doesn't disqualify my atheism).

Peterson is far from perfect. But do we discount the wisdom of a great mechanic when he speaks of the nature of mechanics because he believes that fish are actually aliens that spy on us? His mania does not discredit when he presents his knowledge of mechanics (so long as it doesn't spill over). Peterson's ego does not disqualify the knowledge he has presented on the psychological front, imo.


--------------------


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OfflineLosTresOjos
Humano
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Registered: 09/18/18
Posts: 1,347
Loc: Hurling Through Space
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: Socrateshroom]
    #26807043 - 07/06/20 01:46 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I can go grab a quote from his book I read. It's fishy.

No teacher,no method, no guru.

My main point on Peterson is he's just a person. He has his ideas we have our own. I might hold Terrence up as a wise person but he also had his wacky ideas. Time wave anybody.


Edited by LosTresOjos (07/06/20 01:46 PM)


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,731
Loc: The Primordial Mind
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #26807052 - 07/06/20 01:49 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Everyone’s just a person, more or less like you and I.  Got to remember that and keep things in perspective.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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OfflineSocrateshroom
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Registered: 09/05/18
Posts: 1,840
Loc: Westworld
Last seen: 1 month, 4 days
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #26807123 - 07/06/20 02:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid:

Quote:

LosTresOjos said:
I can go grab a quote from his book I read. It's fishy.

No teacher,no method, no guru.

My main point on Peterson is he's just a person. He has his ideas we have our own. I might hold Terrence up as a wise person but he also had his wacky ideas. Time wave anybody.




I never said he wasn't just a person. He absolutely is. And I love Terrence as well.

What I'm saying is that, the wacky or bad or ignorant ideas that a person may have do not disqualify their good ideas.

I don't hold Jordan or Terrence as, say, gurus or teachers. But I believe their wealth of knowledge is bigger than mine and they have concepts that really resonate with me. So I appreciate them greatly, despite the fact that they were/are also just flawed creatures.


--------------------


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26807155 - 07/06/20 02:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

yes  :respect:


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineLazaro
Stranger
Registered: 12/20/19
Posts: 26
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: LosTresOjos]
    #26807384 - 07/06/20 03:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

LosTresOjos said:
I recently saw an interview with Jordan. I don't know how to embed a videos but he was talking to Dave rubin...I know.

  He was claiming that although Sam Harris is an atheist he still follows christian values.  Rubin asked him to explain, Jordan said that because Sam doesn't steal or murder that he is following christian teachings...

  This is the stupidity of jordan and religion.




It sounds quite terrible, I guess he didn't phrase it very well, but I understand what he means perfectly.

There are not many real atheists in my view also. One real atheist would for example be Nietzsche, who is a fascinating figure because he really tried to go to the root of it. If you don't go against morality, like he did, I just, like Peterson, don't see how people can call themselves atheists since morality originated in religion and it only later got "rationalized".

Nontheless JP example is quite bad, or badly put, as he is more intelligent than that; as Nietzsche would also not go around killing and stealing for no reason. He actually was quite conservative an believed in order, and thought most criminals are degenerate. The main thing for Nietzsche is that if somebody got in somebody's way to achieve something (perhaps arguably "good", but not necessarly, it could be an egotistical deed also) there should be no remorse for killing that person who is in the middle, trying to prevent it.
His example was Napoleon, whom he really admired. And it is also the example that Raskolnikov of Crime and Punishment takes: Raskolnikov (Peterson refers to this story too) thought that there are some superior individuals (like Napoleon) who are allowed to kill if it will make the world better. I.e.: for actually "good" reasons!

These "sanctity of human life" is something definitely not rational, or at least, I can't see how it is.

Peterson's point, that I like, is that people did and do things without understanding what they are doing first, and only later they rationalize it. But these rationalizations "a posteriory" have something artificial (and extremely fragile) in them.

This kind of realizations are something that mushrooms tend to show very deeply, more deeply than can be expressed. With visions, not words. And it tends to be quite dark...

I've seen how fragile it all is, that a lot of things we take for granted could be done away with extremely easily.


Edited by Lazaro (07/06/20 04:00 PM)


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Offlinekyu
Psychonaughty
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Registered: 10/14/12
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26807404 - 07/06/20 04:09 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
I have to be honest with you all; when I’m using mushrooms regularly, heavily, it gets even more c0nfusing and mixed up in my head. I start considering conspiracy theories, and philosophy, and all sorts of matrix-type stuff.




Now this is painfully true. It's hard to admit it, but psychedelics seem to bring us to a state when we produce certain beliefs of dose-dependent weirdness. It can be healing or inspiring or motivating, but as such psychedelic experiences are just experiences.

However.

I believe we need it. Have you noticed that the more sober you get, the less sense things make? And that conspiracy crap, it makes lots of sense, paradoxically. That's because we're human beings, we're designed to be bananas.

The thing is, we can dance not only with our bodies, but with our minds, our souls. And tripping is a way to do it. For those who aren't afraid to look stupid, you know.


--------------------
You gave me a wonderful, wonderful world,
And you gave me eyes to see it,
And you gave me LSD to open them.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,703
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: Lazaro]
    #26807484 - 07/06/20 04:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Lazaro said:
... If you don't go against morality, like he did, I just, like Peterson, don't see how people can call themselves atheists since morality originated in religion and it only later got "rationalized".
...




morality exists even among dogs, there are many intuitive aspects about morality.

after religion decorated it - it actually became cumbersome.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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OfflineNonagon Infinity
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26807501 - 07/06/20 05:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Great questions, Ed!

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
What are your thoughts on god, spirituality, and religion?




I was raised Jewish. My parents took me to synagogue until I was thirteen, which is typically when Jews go through a right of passage called a Bar Mitzvah. I had a Bar Mitzvah, which required me to learn to read a passage from the Torah (the old testament) in Hebrew - this took months of studying and preparation. I also had to translate the portion and deliver my own interpretation of it as a speech to the entire congregation.

While I was preparing for my Bar Mitzvah, my family was falling apart. My parents got a divorce, and I didn't deal with it very well at all. I remember I was crying alone in my room about the divorce, and I started praying out loud to God to help me heal from it. After a few minutes of talking, I started to ask the question of whether or not anyone was actually listening to my pleas. One question led to another, and after a little more investigation (and discussion with my friends), I discovered that I was an agnostic atheist.

Nevertheless, I had my Bar Mitzvah and, at that point, the congregation considered me an adult (spiritually, anyway), so my parents told me that I was allowed to do whatever I wanted with my faith moving forward. That was when I told them that I didn't believe in God and that I didn't want to practice Judaism anymore - fortunately, my parents were okay with that, even though they both believed in God. They were sad to hear that I was an atheist, but they always seemed to have the attitude that I would come around when I grew up (ironic, considering the congregation already considered me an "adult"), and just trusted me to find my own path back to God. I'm pretty blessed in that respect, as I've heard so many stories of parents forcing their children to adhere to religious traditions.

I still don't believe in God today. Specifically, I don't believe in the God described in the Torah. As I said, I'm an agnostic atheist. That means that I don't believe in God, but I would gladly change my beliefs if evidence of God's existence were to present itself to me. Many people have had such revelations in their own lives, including Phillip K. Dick, one of my favorite authors of all time, so I'm open to that type of experience. Nevertheless, it hasn't really happened for me, and it might not ever :shrug:

When it comes to spirituality, I find the term to be a bit hard to define. To me, spirituality means feeling connected to something larger than yourself and, under that definition, I am absolutely spiritual. Though I am an atheist, I believe that the universe itself exists, and that it is vastly more complex than my wildest imagination. As a living thing in this universe, I feel a kinship with the whole, so I guess I'm spiritual in that sense. It might be tempting to label me as a pantheist, but that isn't quite accurate, since I'm not entirely convinced that the universe is sentient, conscious, or has any creative capacity.

As for religion, I feel torn about it, really. There have been some God-awful (pun intended) atrocities committed in the name of religion, and there have been horrible people who use organized religion to protect themselves from prosecution, to control people's behavior, and to extort money from desperate people. Nevertheless, it's not all bad. Some of the traditions I was raised with affected me in a positive way. For example, writing my own interpretation of my Torah portion for my Bar Mitzvah was a great exercise in creative writing and critical thinking. That said, I could have acquired those skills without the aid of an organized religion, but it's kind of cool that I went through that. I guess I'd say organized religion is a tool - it can be used to bring people together and encourage growth and development, but it can also be used to control, abuse, and extort. I believe all traditions should be questioned.

Quote:

DJ Ed said:
How have these beliefs been affected through psychedelics use?




The main thing that psychedelics introduced to me was a new question I hadn't asked previously: are there things which are completely beyond the realm of human understanding? Are there questions that our best rational tools (science, mathematics, philosophy) could never answer? Psychedelics have shown me things that cannot be described in words, things that seem to escape all rational analysis, so I think the answer to my question may be "yes". That said, just because something doesn't have a rational explanation does not mean that we have license to populate our lack of understanding with tradition or conjecture.

So, even after using psychedelics, I am still an agnostic atheist. Psychedelics have exposed me to new modes of human consciousness, and I think that's really interesting, but I'm extremely hesitant to attach a religious or spiritual context to my psychedelic experiences.


--------------------
Nonagon Infinity Opens the Door


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OfflineLazaro
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26808231 - 07/07/20 03:03 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Lazaro said:
... If you don't go against morality, like he did, I just, like Peterson, don't see how people can call themselves atheists since morality originated in religion and it only later got "rationalized".
...




morality exists even among dogs, there are many intuitive aspects about morality.

after religion decorated it - it actually became cumbersome.




Well, thinking this way I guess would qualify you as an atheist in my view.

Personally I don't know about this "morality" of dogs, but I'm unsure whether it's right to call that morality.

In any case, it would be more wise to look at Chimpanzes (the closest relatives) and compare their behaviours to humans.
I think we can imagine the first humanoids started of like that. I am not expert on the topic either, but as far as I know those Chimpanzes societies are quite rough.

Of course they have some "rules" or patterns of functioning too. But if morality was only that, if it was just the same for humans as in dogs but just with different rules, then it would have never changed or improved at all: it would have remained the same throught history.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: Lazaro]
    #26808296 - 07/07/20 05:22 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

what dogs may teach you is the innate respect of others,
and that is the essence of soul after you scrape off the junk

nothing need be added,

however, a written record of how you solved family matters etc. can be a terrific guide for generations to come.

note that the name of god in hebrew always was something like Yehaveh which means "I am that I am"

this is an awfully short sentence in which the meaning of I am (essential entity) is doubled, which suggests both duality and appreciation of the other. I would look at that most carefully in thinking about god.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Edited by redgreenvines (07/07/20 06:16 AM)


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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: Nonagon Infinity]
    #26808348 - 07/07/20 06:25 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

A very well composed response, NI, thank you.
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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OfflineDJ Ed
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Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26808350 - 07/07/20 06:29 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

redgreenvines, perfect!

And I have to say it, “dog” is “god” spelt backwards. I think the whole intent of the Bible could be summed up by “behave like a dog”, in that you should treat others how you would expect to be treated yourself, and with love. Live in the moment, savour life, and love your family.

When I think of the love my dogs have for me, I cry often. They are my children, and I would jump in front of a train for them.

Take care
DJ Ed


--------------------
“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
Michael Pollan: How To Change Your Mind

“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
Terence McKenna



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InvisibleFerdinando
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Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 3,678
Re: What are your thoughts on God [Re: DJ Ed]
    #26808525 - 07/07/20 08:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

it is in instincst too

another word for it is common sense

..

all that good stuff non violence painting etc.

writing good posts

no error

seeing the sun rise etc.

morning mentality

liberation

school

good parenting

finding one's center


--------------------
with our love with our love we could save the world


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