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Offlinedlj403
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Registered: 07/16/18
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26800881 - 07/03/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.




You're forgetting about catalysts - chemicals which are inactive by themselves but make the chemical reaction of other chemicals go faster.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800883 - 07/03/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Don't get too excited, there are good reasons to believe that baeocystin and norbaeocystin have no impact on the trip. They often occur in amounts so small that the dose would simply be too small to have any impact, except in specific species of mushrooms known to have higher amounts. Even then, some people have tried the pure compounds and reported that they're either inactive, or only very weakly active at high doses. Cubensis simply has too little baeocystin and norbaeocystin to have any impact on the trip. In terms of other compounds that might be in mushrooms, the problem there is that the chemical compounds contained in magic mushrooms have been thoroughly studied and no others have been identified (despite quite a bit of looking). That doesn't necessarily mean that there are none, but it's not a good sign.

Pastywhite's post is the closest to the truth. If we're talking about old time members, then it's easier to have a serious discussion about the possibilities. But that discussion has to start from the base of knowledge that we have, and that is that according to all the actual evidence, the only thing that's active is psilocin. Once you start from that point of view, then we can have a discussion of "well, maybe psilocybin isn't completely inactive (or maybe baeocystin still impacts the trip somehow), and what would that mean and how could we tell, and would it make a difference anyway, and under what circumstances?" But that's a nuanced discussion that comes from experience rather than jumping on a bandwagon. If we just jump straight to "THEY'RE ALL ACTIVE OMG BAEOCYSTIN" then I think we're headed in the wrong direction, or at least we're not starting from a sound foothold.

I'd be willing to entertain the idea that they are active, but that has to somehow take into account the evidence saying that they're not, and it has to take into account the fact that they occur in very small amounts.

90% of the different cube varieties are just marketing. The old timers don't like to mention that much because we don't want to step on the toes of the sellers, and people seem to enjoy the idea anyway. But it's mostly just marketing.

Where the idea that there might be some other things active in mushrooms comes from is the unusually wide variety of different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis, and rare unusual effects that occasionally occur especially in higher doses. Still, there's good reason to believe all of these things are just the effects of psilocin. However, pure psilocin tends to be a different experience than mushrooms, and that also adds some weight to the idea that there might be other actives. But the best current explanation for this is that psilocybin is only slowly converted to psilocin which changes the duration of the experience.

If you're expecting there to be some revelation about the impact of other chemicals on the experience, I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.



:werd:
:pipesmoke:


--------------------
I am certain of nothing but the holiness of the Heart's affections and the truth of Imagination--  John Keats

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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800939 - 07/03/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said: different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis




It’s funny you bring this up, because this whole conversation had me thinking about an article about WLP from a month ago (bonding is mine):

“Dr Andrew Chadeayne—CEO of American company CaaMTech, which investigates the potential benefits of chemicals other than psilocybin in psychoactive mushrooms—tells VICE “it would make sense” that aeruginascin might cause WLP because of its structural similarity to bufotenidine: a toxin present in certain toad species that is known to cause paralysis.

“They're really similar molecules,” Dr Beck agrees, adding that in his experience, WLP “feels like a neuromuscular blocker.” This means that something is potentially stopping the signals sent from the brain to the muscles at the point where the nerves make contact, just as bufotenidine has been shown to do at the nicotinic receptors.

When VICE put the theory to Dr Cheadyne that aeruginascin could block neuromuscular receptors, he responded by saying that “activity at nicotinic acetylcholine receptors at the neuromuscular junction makes perfect sense”. He hastened to point out, however, that all of this is highly speculative as there are no studies that show the total chemical composition of psilocybe species.”


I think it’s important in discussions like this to remember that we have so little definitive and complete information. Saying that all ingredients are important is just as speculative as saying some of them make no difference.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26800961 - 07/03/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dlj403 said:
You're forgetting about catalysts - chemicals which are inactive by themselves but make the chemical reaction of other chemicals go faster.



yup that too!

Quote:

Phrontist said:
I think it’s important in discussions like this to remember that we have so little definitive and complete information. Saying that all ingredients are important is just as speculative as saying some of them make no difference.



:thumbup::thumbup:


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Invisiblemaxmush
Always learning...
Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 440
Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26801253 - 07/03/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You will get people that fall within a spectrum of hard scientific data to pure anecdotal reports. I believe discussion and debates are a good thing and so is speculation. This is how new ideas get discovered. Perhaps a discussion in the advanced section may be more appropriate (not to say noobs dont have valid input, so no offense - i am a noob here myself)

I personally believe each variety does have different effects. After working with nutraceuticals for decades, to me, this has to be true (but currently unproven). For example, different species of herbs will have different effects. Scientifically this is because of their different chemical makeup, anecdotally they hold different "intrinsic" values.

Marketing and "placebo" will have some affect (as they are correlated), but to claim it is purely marketing stifles curiosity. Placebo definately has a strong affect (not to be confused with effect), and shouldnt be underestimated, that i will agree.


--------------------
Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.


Edited by maxmush (07/03/20 04:17 PM)


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26801393 - 07/03/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
Marketing and "placebo" will have some affect (as they are correlated), but the claim it is purely marketing stifles curiosity. Placebo definately has a strong affect (not to be confused with effect), and shouldnt be underestimated, that i will agree.



Yes 'placebo' is very powerful... that's a lot how antidepressants work (with exceptions of course).

What are nutraceuticals?  I have an idea from the name, but am interested to see where it ties into your experience with mushrooms.


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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26801774 - 07/03/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The quick answer is: Nutraceuticals are products, which other than nutrition are also used as medicine. A nutraceutical product may be defined as a substance, which has physiological benefit or provides protection against chronic disease.

I work with large and medium scale labs/companies to further develop better nutritional products for customers. I mostly work in the novel ingredient area and I am am more on the research side of R&D.


--------------------
Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26801798 - 07/03/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I’m surprised they have r&d. I guess there’s bullshitters and legit places.

My only experience with nutraceuticals has been people involved with pyramid schemes.


--------------------
LAGM2020


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InvisibleWall.E
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Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26801881 - 07/03/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
The quick answer is: Nutraceuticals are products, which other than nutrition are also used as medicine. A nutraceutical product may be defined as a substance, which has physiological benefit or provides protection against chronic disease.

I work with large and medium scale labs/companies to further develop better nutritional products for customers. I mostly work in the novel ingredient area and I am am more on the research side of R&D.




So an apple a day keeps the doctor away, but as a business, got it. Lol


--------------------
Life’s shit, but I’m loving it



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Invisiblemaxmush
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Registered: 06/13/20
Posts: 440
Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26801953 - 07/03/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

There is a lot of snake oil and misrepresented products out there, but there are also just as many legitimate ones. I have been contracted by some of the top companies internationally. I consider myself lucky because to me its not work, I love research and discovering novel uses or compounds in nature :smile:

BTW I forgot to tell you i love your handle - Myc_Hunt lol!


--------------------
Disclaimer: all information presented is intended for educational purposes only. All photos are only representations and not directly from the user.


Edited by maxmush (07/03/20 06:06 PM)


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Offlinepeyotillo
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26804557 - 07/05/20 02:37 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I know they found serotonin in Pans.
And to be honest, god knows how many compounds were found, but since the researchers had no interest in them, they did not report them.
First you must understand how HPLC works in order to speak about active makeup.
It's true, there may be a couple of other compounds that are not "active" but that synergize with psilocin.
Because yeah, the pan trip is different.


--------------------
Far above the Moon, planet Earth is blue and there's nothing i can do


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InvisibleWall.E
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: peyotillo]
    #26804626 - 07/05/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

peyotillo said:
I know they found serotonin in Pans.
And to be honest, god knows how many compounds were found, but since the researchers had no interest in them, they did not report them.
First you must understand how HPLC works in order to speak about active makeup.
It's true, there may be a couple of other compounds that are not "active" but that synergize with psilocin.
Because yeah, the pan trip is different.



Right, and that's why I'm thinking "well if it's all just metabolized into psilocin then every mushroom species would produce the same trip." But they clearly don't. People often report more visuals on pans and more introspective thinking on cubes whereas azures can blast you off the planet. Like, there just has to be more to it than just chalking it up to basically nothing


--------------------
Life’s shit, but I’m loving it



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Offlinemycellie
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Registered: 04/30/20
Posts: 7
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26805020 - 07/05/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

To my mind it's perfectly possible that synergistic interactions may take place between psilocin and any number of the additional compounds within varieties of Psilocybe spp.

I mean, just because a molecule has been isolated and ingested and didn't produce any noticeable effects, doesn't mean that it didn't cause a sub-perceptual effect.

Psilocin is a serotonin 2A receptor agonist, and the 2A receptor is known to mediate memory, learning, emotional regulation, light and colour perception, hormone levels (eg oxytocin, prolactin etc), neuronal excitation, some behaviours, anti-inflammatory responses etc etc etc. Basically it is involved in a LOT of very complex stuff that goes down in the brain and can account for all of what is experienced in a trip.
So sure psilocin does a bang up job of inducing a trip all by itself, but if different species of shrooms are known for being more visual/introspective/whatever, then there may be some other constituent acting either on psilocin, or on other receptors.

Modern research trials use a synthesized version of psilocybin without any of the additional constituents found in the mushrooms themselves. I would be interested for them to repeat some of the brain imaging they did with psilocybin with some whole mushrooms of different species to see if the perceived differences such as 'this on is more visual' can link up with an increase in activity in the visual centres of the brain.

Ultimately, the question 'what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character?' is really hard to answer. It seems that psilocin accounts for all the effects of a trip quite nicely, and set and setting are known to factor into the character of a trip in a significant way. Despite this, I believe there is still room for the constituent makeup of a particular shroom to impart a unique character into it's trip. Having said that, I couldn't even begin to suggest what those 'character constituents' might be.


--------------------
Peace out :sun:
------------
:mushroom2::heart::mushroom2::heart::mushroom2:


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: mycellie]
    #26805182 - 07/05/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mycellie said:
Modern research trials use a synthesized version of psilocybin without any of the additional constituents found in the mushrooms themselves. I would be interested for them to repeat some of the brain imaging they did with psilocybin with some whole mushrooms of different species to see if the perceived differences such as 'this on is more visual' can link up with an increase in activity in the visual centres of the brain



That would be a very objective approach.

Also, I completely buy that the speed of digestion of psilocin contributes immensely to the character of the trip;  just like deniers of this OP idea keep stating  :smirk:
so I got ya guys, I agree with this!


--------------------


Edited by AtmozFear (07/05/20 12:36 PM)


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Offlinemycellie
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26805446 - 07/05/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

AtmozFear said:

That would be a very objective approach.







There's currently companies filing patents for their synthesis of psilocybin in order to raise funds for taking psilocybin therapy through the next stages of research and onto being a licensed medicine. May happen in the next 5-10 years, and when it does and there's hot dolla to be made, I reckon we might start seeing some research into potentially synergistic consituents, funded by big pharma companies wanting their patentable medicine to have the edge on competition.


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Offlinekarri0n
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26983410 - 10/13/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phrontist said:
Quote:

nooneman said:

“Dr Andrew Chadeayne—CEO of American company CaaMTech, which investigates the potential benefits of chemicals other than psilocybin in psychoactive mushrooms—tells VICE “it would make sense” that aeruginascin might cause WLP because of its structural similarity to bufotenidine: a toxin present in certain toad species that is known to cause paralysis.

“They're really similar molecules,” Dr Beck agrees, adding that in his experience, WLP “feels like a neuromuscular blocker.” This means that something is potentially stopping the signals sent from the brain to the muscles at the point where the nerves make contact, just as bufotenidine has been shown to do at the nicotinic receptors.

“activity at nicotinic acetylcholine receptors at the neuromuscular junction makes perfect sense”. 







When I first heard of Woodlover's Paralysis, I immediately thought people were describing poisonings by amphibian poisons, fish poisons, etc.

I recently saw a very similar article comparing  aeruginascin and bufotenadine and found that very curious.



I too am curious about different effects from the various compounds in mushroom species.

I don't have enough trip experience to weigh in either way, but I'd be much more convinced of differing effect in different species than differing effects in different "strains" of cubes.

It's a disservice to the collective knowledge of trippers and contrary to logic to dismiss people's anecdotal accounts based on a lack of research into the various interactions that might be happening between mushroom compounds as we metabolize them. This is simply due to prohibition and we would have this information well documented by now otherwise.

The entourage effect in Cannabis is widely accepted by science, and the study of the active effects of the "inactive" compounds in cannabis is the biggest thing in the industry right now.

As drug policies relax and research becomes more available, there are a lot of  very smart folks who are going to need to eat their hat in retrospect.


Edited by karri0n (10/13/20 01:43 PM)


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OfflineAtomHeart
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #26983486 - 10/13/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

So I will chip in for what my input is worth.  I recently completed and celebrated my 600th trip on mushrooms.

I cannot offer anything scientific to this discussion, but would like to offer what I've experienced that I'm 100% sure of and think is relevant to this topic.  I have had strains that very clearly always have the same characteristic trip, to the point that I believe I could determine which of them I was taking in a blind test. 

If for example, a strain of mazatepec has one particular characteristic that I could identify every time I took it, regardless of set/setting, etc. that seems to me to be excellent (though anecdotal) evidence that there is more at play in a given mushroom strain than just psilocin/psilocybin content.  Now I would be the first to say this has not been the case with every strain...just some outlyers that stood out from the pack for some reason, but I still felt like that's relevant to this conversation.

Take that for what it's worth.  I'm treading very carefully because I've been sternly berated for suggesting anything more than psilocybin content is at work in past posts.


--------------------
You once ripped a man's jaw off...I seent it!



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Offlinetrippleblack
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtomHeart]
    #26983558 - 10/13/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Could have most to do with the ratio of everything contained within the mushroom.  mycellium likely degrade and uptake minerals in various ratios.

mushrooms have terpenes too.


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OfflineDonkeyHodie
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: trippleblack]
    #26983658 - 10/13/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Then there's all this mess right here.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-brain-gut-connection

Could be that there are compounds in some active species/varieties that don't act at all on the "big brain", but influence it through the gut-brain connection. There's plenty more research to be done in this area. It is far from settled.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: DonkeyHodie]
    #26983753 - 10/13/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Just the difference in the trip between species that are all “psilocybin” is more than enough to convince me there’s a lot of complexity going on.


--------------------
LAGM2020


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