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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800021 - 07/02/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I guess yeah. Not much though. You just have to dial stuff in and keep it there or they’ll abort instantly. Once you get things set up and running they need no maintenance and grow super fast.

I’d just expect the first couple runs to not go well until things are dialed in.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a] * 1
    #26800129 - 07/02/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
I thought the same thing until I tried pans.

Completely different experience, imo there’s no doubt more than just psilo involved.




With all due respect (and I mean that)-- you can't point to any substantiated science that shows it isn't psilocybin/psilocin doing all the lifting with all the Psilocybes.

Baeocystin is always brought up, but it is an N-demethylated derivative of psilocybin (I looked it up, lol), so you're back to the beginning.
It may very well be the ratio of psilocybin/psilocin that makes different types feel distinct, but there's no mysterious chemicals in them but their namesake.

For every person that swears certain mushrooms are unique, you can find others that have tried a wide variety claim they are all giving the same basic effects.

Not picking on you A.K.A. , you're a favorite poster of mine for sure and an amazing cultivator-- but there's just zero evidence that it's anything but psilocybin/psilocin working the magic in all "magic" shrooms-- that's just a fact.

If there's any brand new science showing that a new chemical that all prior analysts missed over all these years is making different psychedelic types behave in a pharmacologically distinct way, it would be very big news in the shroom scene and this forum, and would be heavily discussed by the heavy-hitters/scientists on this forum.

There's a reason it's not part of the formal data discussed by researchers, but instead remains a subjective assertion of feelings and memories on forum boards--


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26800139 - 07/02/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:  :takingnotes:


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 07:18 PM)


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Invisiblemushhead
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800155 - 07/02/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I would speculate to say that it is a combination of active and inactive compounds that give each variety of mushroom their differing trips.
Psilocin/psilocybin are potentiated by the different concentrations of Baeocystin, Norbaeocystin, and Norpsilocin perhaps?


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: mushhead] * 1
    #26800172 - 07/02/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Don’t worry man I’m not gonna get offended, I totally see where you’re coming from. It could very well be the ratios involved. Actually I’d say it’s more than likely the ratios but I tend to think the known ones besides psilocybin and psilocin are what makes the difference. Especially since people who try pure psilocybin say it’s also different than mushrooms.

Same deal with cacti. San Pedro is my all time favorite, which I thought was just mescaline. The first time I ran an extraction I was actually disappointed. It was still awesome but felt like it was missing something compared to what I was used to with the full spectrum tea.

I really can’t believe somebody hasn’t done more in-depth research in a lab on mushroom species. At least now they’re starting too. Better late than never.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: mushhead]
    #26800180 - 07/02/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mushhead said:
I would speculate to say that it is a combination of active and inactive compounds that give each variety of mushroom their differing trips.
Psilocin/psilocybin are potentiated by the different concentrations of Baeocystin, Norbaeocystin, and Norpsilocin perhaps?




Firstly, these are all derivatives from the main chemical at the heart of it all: Psilocin.
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.
If some potentiation existed, it would be in the literature-- it is not. These things are all broken down into the same root chemical in the human body-- psilocin. How would a chemical that is broken down into the same chemical potentiate the chemical? It would merely ADD to the quantity of the root chemical metabolized. More psilocin. NOT supercharged psilocin-- just more.

Maybe the staggered rate of metabolism makes you feel different, maybe the waves of alks cause the gates to fall in your mind at such a way that it lubricates the experience better for some-- but in the end, your brain is tripping on psilocin.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26800200 - 07/02/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Same deal with cacti. San Pedro is my all time favorite, which I thought was just mescaline. The first time I ran an extraction I was actually disappointed. It was still awesome but felt like it was missing something compared to what I was used to with the full spectrum tea.





I've never tried extracted mescaline, but I've had a number of cactus experiences, and there are definitely a cocktail of chemicals present in different types.
A foot of Bridgesii is not the same experience as a foot of Pachanoi, and no tricho is like Peyote.
Each branch of that family has the exact characteristics that people are chasing in the mushroom conversation-- different complimentary chemicals surrounding the root chemical mescaline. Do a search on Keeper Trout and you'll find a book written on the chemistry of various psychoactive cactus.
EDIT: here it is: https://troutsnotes.com/pdf/CactusChemistry_2013_Light.pdf

:cheers:


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InvisibleWall.E
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26800231 - 07/02/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Quote:

mushhead said:
I would speculate to say that it is a combination of active and inactive compounds that give each variety of mushroom their differing trips.
Psilocin/psilocybin are potentiated by the different concentrations of Baeocystin, Norbaeocystin, and Norpsilocin perhaps?




Firstly, these are all derivatives from the main chemical at the heart of it all: Psilocin.
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.
If some potentiation existed, it would be in the literature-- it is not. These things are all broken down into the same root chemical in the human body-- psilocin. How would a chemical that is broken down into the same chemical potentiate the chemical? It would merely ADD to the quantity of the root chemical metabolized. More psilocin. NOT supercharged psilocin-- just more.

Maybe the staggered rate of metabolism makes you feel different, maybe the waves of alks cause the gates to fall in your mind at such a way that it lubricates the experience better for some-- but in the end, your brain is tripping on psilocin.




Except psilocin has an additional methyl group that baeocystin doesn't. This could effect brain chemistry similarly to how methamphetamine and amphetamine are separated by a methyl group. Lack of evidence does not equal the evidence of something lacking.


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26800290 - 07/02/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
Lack of evidence does not equal the evidence of something lacking.




This.

Other ingredients exist at such minuscule levels in a fruit that it is nearly impossible at present to scientifically determine what effect they have, if any.

With how long fungi have been around perfecting their many gifts, and how efficiently they tackle their myriad duties, my money is on every piece being an important part of the puzzle.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26800300 - 07/02/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

You're welcome to waste your time on hypotheticals all you like guys-- your internet opinion doesn't change anything.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26800374 - 07/02/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I’ve never found intelligent discussion to be a waste of time. I was just pointing out that scientifically speaking, those ingredients cannot be called anything other than inactive since there is no indisputable proof of their function. This, however, should not be mistaken for indisputable proof that they have no function.

“From a scientific point of view, it would be really interesting to scale up production of the various intermediates and natural derivatives of the psilocybin biosynthetic pathway such as baeocystin and aeruginascin. In our study we demonstrated the production of all (known) intermediates and derivatives of the psilocybin biosynthetic pathway and scaling up the production of these molecules will be an important follow-up step. Compared to psilocybin, we know almost nothing about the therapeutic potential of these molecules. The main reason for this is that while psilocybin can accumulate in Psilocybe mushrooms, up to 1% of the total dry weight, the concentration of these “minor” products is hundreds of times lower, making extraction of meaningful quantities practically impossible.”


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26800398 - 07/02/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.



This is completely false.  With marijuana, there are dozens of inactive compounds that contribute to the 'type' of high called terpenes and terpenoids.  These give different strains their unique taste and smell which are bonded with the experience of the high.  It's what every single High Times Magazine is focusing half their articles on.  :nono:
That was an extremely uneducated assertion.  You lost all credibility in this discussion.

Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
Except psilocin has an additional methyl group that baeocystin doesn't. This could effect brain chemistry similarly to how methamphetamine and amphetamine are separated by a methyl group. Lack of evidence does not equal the evidence of something lacking.



THIS IS KEY.

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Each branch of that family has the exact characteristics that people are chasing in the mushroom conversation-- different complimentary chemicals surrounding the root chemical mescaline.



Again, KEY.


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 09:55 PM)


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Invisiblemaxmush
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800421 - 07/02/20 10:01 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I believe there is definitely an "entourage effect" similar to cannabis. Until fairly recently most people didn't have a clue about CBD and even more recently about terpenes and their enchaining effects on a cannabis high. Different strains and different phenotypes can have wildly varying effects.

I believe the same is true with cubes. I think we can all agree the main pyscoactive compounds are Psilocybin which then get metabolized by your system into Psilocin (trace amounts also present in the mushroom itself).

Science will eventually catch up in mycology and discover the symphony of natural compounds that create the experience. A big part of science is the discovery and not just what has already been discovered.

Saying a cube is a cube is like saying all grapes taste the same (tell that to a vineyard or master winemaker and see what their response is :wink: )


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Edited by maxmush (07/03/20 09:56 AM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26800438 - 07/02/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I like that metaphor. But I suspect that if some rank noob asked a master vintner what the best tasting grape was he might also get a similar answer. The nuance of the discussion is sometimes more than most people feel like explaining to noobs, so they say cubes are cubes.


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OfflineA.k.aM
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26800444 - 07/02/20 10:16 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

At that point it starts getting subjective too. No accounting for taste when it comes to “best qualities”.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26800708 - 07/03/20 05:06 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
I believe there is definitely an "entourage effect" similar to cannabis. Until fairly recently most people didn't have a clue about CBD and even more recently about terpenes and their enchaining effects on a cannabis high. Different strains and different prototypes can have wildly varying effects.



Right, "entourage effects"... there's a pot grower!


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26800713 - 07/03/20 05:13 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
I believe there is definitely an "entourage effect" similar to cannabis. Until fairly recently most people didn't have a clue about CBD and even more recently about terpenes and their enchaining effects on a cannabis high. Different strains and different prototypes can have wildly varying effects.

I believe the same is true with cubes. I think we can all agree the main pyscoactive compounds are Psilocybin which then get metabolized by your system into Psilocin (trace amounts also present in the mushroom itself).

Science will eventually catch up in mycology and discover the symphony of natural compounds that create the experience. A big part of science is the discovery and not just what has already been discovered.

Saying a cube is a cube is like saying all grapes taste the same (tell that to a vineyard or master winemaker and see what their response is :wink: )




I work in cannabis and have learned a lot and this is what founds my faith in the unknown compounds in mushrooms. Like, if we've been studying this flower and keep discovering new cannabinoids and terpenes, then why is it impossible for a mushroom to be the same? Like part of my interest in mycology is strictly limited to how much we don't know about these things. Lots of potential under all sorts of different rocks.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E] * 1
    #26800747 - 07/03/20 05:49 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Don't get too excited, there are good reasons to believe that baeocystin and norbaeocystin have no impact on the trip. They often occur in amounts so small that the dose would simply be too small to have any impact, except in specific species of mushrooms known to have higher amounts. Even then, some people have tried the pure compounds and reported that they're either inactive, or only very weakly active at high doses. Cubensis simply has too little baeocystin and norbaeocystin to have any impact on the trip. In terms of other compounds that might be in mushrooms, the problem there is that the chemical compounds contained in magic mushrooms have been thoroughly studied and no others have been identified (despite quite a bit of looking). That doesn't necessarily mean that there are none, but it's not a good sign.

Pastywhite's post is the closest to the truth. If we're talking about old time members, then it's easier to have a serious discussion about the possibilities. But that discussion has to start from the base of knowledge that we have, and that is that according to all the actual evidence, the only thing that's active is psilocin. Once you start from that point of view, then we can have a discussion of "well, maybe psilocybin isn't completely inactive (or maybe baeocystin still impacts the trip somehow), and what would that mean and how could we tell, and would it make a difference anyway, and under what circumstances?" But that's a nuanced discussion that comes from experience rather than jumping on a bandwagon. If we just jump straight to "THEY'RE ALL ACTIVE OMG BAEOCYSTIN" then I think we're headed in the wrong direction, or at least we're not starting from a sound foothold.

I'd be willing to entertain the idea that they are active, but that has to somehow take into account the evidence saying that they're not, and it has to take into account the fact that they occur in very small amounts.

90% of the different cube varieties are just marketing. The old timers don't like to mention that much because we don't want to step on the toes of the sellers, and people seem to enjoy the idea anyway. But it's mostly just marketing.

Where the idea that there might be some other things active in mushrooms comes from is the unusually wide variety of different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis, and rare unusual effects that occasionally occur especially in higher doses. Still, there's good reason to believe all of these things are just the effects of psilocin. However, pure psilocin tends to be a different experience than mushrooms, and that also adds some weight to the idea that there might be other actives. But the best current explanation for this is that psilocybin is only slowly converted to psilocin which changes the duration of the experience.

If you're expecting there to be some revelation about the impact of other chemicals on the experience, I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800835 - 07/03/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree with most of that, but it is well thought-out and obviously backed by a bunch of reading, so I respect what you just said.

Again, remember that all those 'entourage' compounds in pot are at very low levels, too, yet they have a profound effect.

Thank you for your input  :takingnotes:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800844 - 07/03/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Don't get too excited, there are good reasons to believe that baeocystin and norbaeocystin have no impact on the trip. They often occur in amounts so small that the dose would simply be too small to have any impact, except in specific species of mushrooms known to have higher amounts. Even then, some people have tried the pure compounds and reported that they're either inactive, or only very weakly active at high doses. Cubensis simply has too little baeocystin and norbaeocystin to have any impact on the trip. In terms of other compounds that might be in mushrooms, the problem there is that the chemical compounds contained in magic mushrooms have been thoroughly studied and no others have been identified (despite quite a bit of looking). That doesn't necessarily mean that there are none, but it's not a good sign.

Pastywhite's post is the closest to the truth. If we're talking about old time members, then it's easier to have a serious discussion about the possibilities. But that discussion has to start from the base of knowledge that we have, and that is that according to all the actual evidence, the only thing that's active is psilocin. Once you start from that point of view, then we can have a discussion of "well, maybe psilocybin isn't completely inactive (or maybe baeocystin still impacts the trip somehow), and what would that mean and how could we tell, and would it make a difference anyway, and under what circumstances?" But that's a nuanced discussion that comes from experience rather than jumping on a bandwagon. If we just jump straight to "THEY'RE ALL ACTIVE OMG BAEOCYSTIN" then I think we're headed in the wrong direction, or at least we're not starting from a sound foothold.

I'd be willing to entertain the idea that they are active, but that has to somehow take into account the evidence saying that they're not, and it has to take into account the fact that they occur in very small amounts.

90% of the different cube varieties are just marketing. The old timers don't like to mention that much because we don't want to step on the toes of the sellers, and people seem to enjoy the idea anyway. But it's mostly just marketing.

Where the idea that there might be some other things active in mushrooms comes from is the unusually wide variety of different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis, and rare unusual effects that occasionally occur especially in higher doses. Still, there's good reason to believe all of these things are just the effects of psilocin. However, pure psilocin tends to be a different experience than mushrooms, and that also adds some weight to the idea that there might be other actives. But the best current explanation for this is that psilocybin is only slowly converted to psilocin which changes the duration of the experience.

If you're expecting there to be some revelation about the impact of other chemicals on the experience, I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.




Right, and just let me explain my rationale for my willingness to die on this hill. In cannabis we know that the "entourage effect" can produce better results in respects to treating medical conditions. In Minnesota (the most restrictive medical cannabis market) we are able to see tremendous results with autistic and seizure patients by adding a trace amount of THC to their CBD regimen. On the flip side, treating pain and PTSD with just THC can work, however we see much more positive results with the trace amount of CBD. These bind to different receptors and allow for different neurotransmitters to be available.

I just want someone to try to understand where I am coming from. If CBD is not psychoactive but can alter the effects of cognitive ability while under the psychoactive effects of THC, then why do we have to say baeocystin, aeruginascin, and norbaeocystin couldn't possibly play a role? Maybe the MAO action focuses more on cleaving these and make more psilocin bioavailable, maybe they don't and it's literally nothing.

If I was on here arguing the earth is flat when we clearly have satellites and shit, then I could understand. But I'm on here speculating a really understudided field due to a lot of limitations.


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