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fungusmuncher
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First run with bags.
#26800022 - 07/02/20 06:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Just loaded 4 sawdust bags in my presto. They are about 4.5 lbs each. I put a layer of jar rings under the canning rack to elevate them a bit more and put rings in between the bags to allow steam to flow through. I was going to use a large plate for the top but it's a bit too big so I'm going with this pot lid.
You guys think it will go alright? Is 3 hours at 17psi a long enough cycle?


Any tips on doing bags will be appreciated, this is all new territory for me.
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SHROOMSISAY01
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keep a close eye on it. You may run out of water. 3 hours should do it if you don't run out of water in your pc. I bought an extra rack that goes in the bottom for the top of the bags.
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fungusmuncher
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Hopefully I don't run out. With my presto I taped 3 quarters to the weight per bods tek. I can maintain 17psi for a 2 hour cycle and not lose much water so I should be good.
Thank you for all of your help man. Constantly find you dropping nuggets of knowledge around here.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Thank you for your kind words!! I just want people to have an easier time than I had. I took my PC weight to lowes and bought some washers that fit perfectly on the weight just unscrew the handle and put them on. The PC will use less water with the washers. I control my PC with a PID so I only use about 1/8 to 1/4 of water in 4 hours and I don't have to watch it the timer turns it off. I try to make things easy and have my equipment work for me so I don't spend as much time on it.
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fungusmuncher
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: Thank you for your kind words!! I just want people to have an easier time than I had. I took my PC weight to lowes and bought some washers that fit perfectly on the weight just unscrew the handle and put them on. The PC will use less water with the washers. I control my PC with a PID so I only use about 1/8 to 1/4 of water in 4 hours and I don't have to watch it the timer turns it off. I try to make things easy and have my equipment work for me so I don't spend as much time on it.
That's funny, not even 5 minutes ago I was telling my wife "I need to get smart like that guy Myer's". I watched his video on setting up a pid a few days ago. I'll most likely have 3 cookers with 4 bags in each so the less I have to watch the better. Really looking into a barrel sterilizer but need to make sure the demand is there.
Edited by fungusmuncher (07/02/20 07:49 PM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Just build the steamer. By the time you pay for two more PC's you are almost there as far as price goes. Then you just press a button and walk away. This may help you some if you want to build a steamer I never finished it. I was waiting until my drum started leaking so I could make a video but it still is not leaking...
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25700858


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fungusmuncher
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Yea I probably will end up building one in the next month or so, definitely before winter. Around how many 5 lb bags can you fit in one? I already have 3 pcs, grabbed an AA 921 and 25x for $250 a few weeks ago.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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I think about 60 5 lb bags but I have never had to fill it. I was going to go hard this year since I got everything finally working well. But I had a heart attack and with the COVID 19 I slacked off. I am spending a lot of time on my high-pressure Mist system I am trying to get the price as low as possible so people can have a high-pressure system for under $300. It has been more work than I anticipated. Searching for parts is something I don't enjoy. But this thing is badass.
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fungusmuncher
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60 5 lb bags would be great. It's looking like my workflow is going to be around 75 bags a week once things get moving.
I think my first run of bags went ok, held them at 17psi for 3 hours. Only thing I noticed was a bit of water in between the folds of the bag, was going to unfold it to let the water drip back into the sawdust but not sure.
Is it normal to have water in the folds? If not what can I do to avoid it?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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sounds like you took them out to early I leave mine for 2 days in my steamer to let them cool completely. I am not sure of your procedure or how you are seeing water in the folds the bags should be tight against the sub like it was vacuum packed. If they cool to quickly you probably will have contamination.
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fungusmuncher
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: sounds like you took them out to early I leave mine for 2 days in my steamer to let them cool completely. I am not sure of your procedure or how you are seeing water in the folds the bags should be tight against the sub like it was vacuum packed. If they cool to quickly you probably will have contamination.
After the pc hit 0psi for about 20 minutes set it in front of my flow hood. Opened the bags in the flow and let them cool overnight in front of it.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Can you take a pic of the water in the folds you are talking about? Are the bags tight against the sub? I have never done it like you are talking about so I don't know what to expect. Here are some pics of properly folded bags done correctly...

As you can see. I would not be able to see any water in the folds. I can not see the folds.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Something you might think about doing is putting your bags in a pillowcase or something to keep the bags from touching the sides of the PC. If you don't you will eventually melt the bags especially if you are using a gas stove. When I PC my bags I put them in a pillowcase just to be safe. There is nothing worse than wasting 3 or 4 hours because you did not spend 30 sec putting them in a pillowcase.
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fungusmuncher
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Sorry I should have specified that I presealed my bags. I can get a picture up once I get back to them, the water was in between the layers of plastic towards the top of the bag. The pillowcase definitely sounds like a good idea, last thing I want to do is open up to a bunch of melted bags.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Just out of curiosity why would you pre-seal your sub bags? Now you have to cut them open to spawn to them. If you fold your sub bags properly you will be fine. The only thing I pre-seal is my sub bags. I use these they are quicker than an impulse sealer and you have the luxury of opening the bag...
https://www.amazon.com/Monoprice-Releasable-cable-50LBS-100pcs/dp/B004C4ZRIK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=22WQU3JXZSV1X&dchild=1&keywords=monoprice+cable+ties&qid=1593804522&s=industrial&sprefix=monoprice+cable%2Cindustrial%2C172&sr=1-5
The good news is if they were pre-sealed you have nothing to worry about they are fine. As long as you have your moisture ccontent right.
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fungusmuncher
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The reason I preseal is because sometimes the bags won't be getting inoculated for 2-3 days after sterilization. I thought about just folding them over then placing into totes wiped out with iso but just feel weird about leaving bags unsealed for a few days.
This is my first rodeo with edibles and bags so it's all a learning experience.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Yes, I understand this is your 1st time with edibles. You are doing great so far and I did not mean to sound like I am downing you because I am not. You are doing GREAT!! Just so you know that bag that I took a picture of has 29 brothers and sisters sitting right beside it. They are in open air and I have taken no other precautions other than folding the bags. Those were done 2 weeks ago and it will be another few days before they are inoculated. They should be inoculated immediately but I ran into a problem with mice eating my spawn bags so I had to fix it so no mice can get to my spawn. They were made with soy hulls so if they were going to contaminate they would have already been contaminated.
Anyway my point being. You do not have to seal the bags. A natural cool will seal them tight and you will have to pull the bag apart with some force to inoculate. Next time you do sub bags just try it and you will never go back to pre-sealing once you see how well they seal by just folding. If I would have pushed out the air from the bag when folding the bag would have been super tight. But that takes time and effort and as you can see it is not needed.
Edited by SHROOMSISAY01 (07/03/20 04:14 PM)
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fungusmuncher
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Ran 12 bags last night and 3 of them burst. Would wrapping in pillowcases have saved them? The 2 together were the bottom row in my AA 921 and the solo burst was in my 25x.
The 25x fluctuates in psi a bit even when I don't touch the knob. The 921 was rolling along at a steady 16psi when I heard them go, it was about 90 minutes into the cycle.


edit: I'm wondering if it's the way I stacked them. The top rows were perpendicular to the bottom, they blew out right where the gap in the top row was.
Edited by fungusmuncher (07/04/20 09:59 AM)
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Forrester
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I think it's because you are sealing them before you PC them. How's the increasingly hot air gonna escape? Blow a hole.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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seagu

Registered: 03/03/18
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Quote:
SHROOMSISAY01 said: Yes, I understand this is your 1st time with edibles. You are doing great so far and I did not mean to sound like I am downing you because I am not. You are doing GREAT!! Just so you know that bag that I took a picture of has 29 brothers and sisters sitting right beside it. They are in open air and I have taken no other precautions other than folding the bags. Those were done 2 weeks ago and it will be another few days before they are inoculated. They should be inoculated immediately but I ran into a problem with mice eating my spawn bags so I had to fix it so no mice can get to my spawn. They were made with soy hulls so if they were going to contaminate they would have already been contaminated.
Anyway my point being. You do not have to seal the bags. A natural cool will seal them tight and you will have to pull the bag apart with some force to inoculate. Next time you do sub bags just try it and you will never go back to pre-sealing once you see how well they seal by just folding. If I would have pushed out the air from the bag when folding the bag would have been super tight. But that takes time and effort and as you can see it is not needed.
And I have my steamer outside. So when they are done I open air outside move them from the steamer to my flowhood area. They often sit for a few days with the fan off before inoculation because of my work schedule and letting them dry off and stuff. With no problems of not pre-sealing. Just letting the cooling off period perform a "seal". So to illustrate that the no seal "seal" method you are mentioning works, under even a dirty environment such as outside.
-------------------- Plan to win or you are planning for failure. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Just figure out the solution. Even if that means banging your head on a wall until the solution oozes out of you.
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fungusmuncher
rabbit chaser



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Re: First run with bags. [Re: Forrester]
#26803316 - 07/04/20 10:34 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said: I think it's because you are sealing them before you PC them. How's the increasingly hot air gonna escape? Blow a hole.
After reading this entire thread about 5 times I thought I'd be ok https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26282176/fpart/1/vc/1. ; I'll try another 12 bags tonight unsealed.
Edit: The 4 sealed bags in my presto came out great. Was that just luck of the draw? The 4 bags sterilized in the presto the night before didn't burst either. Sorry for all the posts, just trying to figure this out.
Edited by fungusmuncher (07/04/20 11:12 AM)
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Forrester
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Quote:
fungusmuncher said: Edit: The 4 sealed bags in my presto came out great. Was that just luck of the draw? The 4 bags sterilized in the presto the night before didn't burst either. Sorry for all the posts, just trying to figure this out.
I'm not an expert on PC-ing bags as I found it to be a pain in the ass so I never did it much, but here's my thoughts based on physics:
You're getting lucky on the ones that survive. You mentioned the blowouts happened between where the other bags weren't sitting on top of them - so in other words, if they have a place to blow out, they're probably going to. When you heat up your PC, the air inside the bags as well as outside of them gets hot very quickly. If they are sealed and it can't get out the filter patch quick enough, it's gonna blow if it has room. So if you just rolled 'em over instead of sealing, I think you wouldn't have problems.
Of course you could always cram enough shit in there they wouldn't have a place to blow out, but I wouldn't rely on luck if it were me, I'd just not seal em. Up to you though, just my thoughts.
-------------------- Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here. ------------------- Have some medicinal mushrooms and want to get the most out of them? Try this double extraction method.
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fungusmuncher
rabbit chaser



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Re: First run with bags. [Re: Forrester]
#26803998 - 07/04/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Forrester said:
Quote:
fungusmuncher said: Edit: The 4 sealed bags in my presto came out great. Was that just luck of the draw? The 4 bags sterilized in the presto the night before didn't burst either. Sorry for all the posts, just trying to figure this out.
I'm not an expert on PC-ing bags as I found it to be a pain in the ass so I never did it much, but here's my thoughts based on physics:
You're getting lucky on the ones that survive. You mentioned the blowouts happened between where the other bags weren't sitting on top of them - so in other words, if they have a place to blow out, they're probably going to. When you heat up your PC, the air inside the bags as well as outside of them gets hot very quickly. If they are sealed and it can't get out the filter patch quick enough, it's gonna blow if it has room. So if you just rolled 'em over instead of sealing, I think you wouldn't have problems.
Of course you could always cram enough shit in there they wouldn't have a place to blow out, but I wouldn't rely on luck if it were me, I'd just not seal em. Up to you though, just my thoughts.
Right on, I'm going to try another run tomorrow unsealed. When I fold the top of the bag over should the filter patch be on the inside or outside of the fold? Or does it matter?
So far I've been folding them so the filter patch is between the fold and the bag. Should I fold over in the other direction so the filter patch is exposed?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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I agree with both of the above statements. A pillowcase would not have helped because the bags did not melt because they were against the PC's sides. A hole was blown in the top of the bag from overpressure. You can either buy pre-sealable bags or just fold your bags. I think we know which one I say to do but the choice is yours.
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MMG
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You'd be shooting to have the filter patch directly on your substrate and not on top of one or two layers of plastic. That way the bag will be able to breath and not pop like it did. I've been having issues with melted bags as well. Will try the pillow case method and this idea of making sure the filter is allowing the bag to breath while pced.
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Bsdgaou

Registered: 02/20/19
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Re: First run with bags. [Re: MMG]
#26804591 - 07/05/20 04:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Do you guys compress bags prior to sterilising? And after you add spawn, seal, and mix it?
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fungusmuncher
rabbit chaser



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Re: First run with bags. [Re: Bsdgaou]
#26804633 - 07/05/20 05:36 AM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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It seems bags are a hard thing to figure out in pressure cookers. Some people go years with no issues and others have constant problems. The bags I'm using have a .5 micron filter.
Going to try some unsealed. If I can't get at least %90 success rate in the next week I'll be building a barrel sterilizer asap.
I've seen people mention they can only fit 20-25 bags in a 55 gallon but I think they might be referring to 10lb bags. If I can fit around 50 bags in a 55 gallon it will be worth it.
Edited by fungusmuncher (07/05/20 07:08 AM)
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Well, you might as well start buying the parts for your steamer. Once you start folding your bags you will have 100% success.
The people who are having constant problems. Are the people who don't listen to more experienced growers. I have been there and you have been there obviously. No big deal. I am sure we have all been there at one point.
Understand we are here spending our time to save you time and money and we do it for free. Because we want to see you become a successful grower in the least amount of time possible.
Forget about the impulse sealer. Buy the cable ties they are like $7 and the time and effort they save is awesome.
Something else that will save you time is not mixing the sub before it goes in the bag. Put your dry ingredients in the bag mix it dry and add the proper amount of water. When you spawn you have to mix the spawn with the sub so all the ingredients get mixed when you spawn. No need to mix the sub twice.
You do not have to continue to do anything that someone suggests. But to not try it and just decide against it is not smart.
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fungusmuncher
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I have to bite the bullet and start building a barrel sterilizer. Shopping around for parts now. Found some 55 gallon barrels around here but they have a "poly ceramic direct food contact inner lining" so I don't know if they are going to be suitable. Going to reach out a little further tomorrow and see what I can find.
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fungusmuncher
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You were right, keeping the bags unsealed is much easier. They create a great vacuum on themselves and actually stayed cleaner near the top of the bag. Most important, they don't pop.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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I am glad folding the bags worked out for you. Next year you will just have to buy fireworks for the fourth of July. Instead of sitting back and listening to your bags pop in the steamer.
When you go to build your steamer drum give me a yell and I will help you as much as I can.
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humaninspiredlife
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Do you have consistent success with your steamer for grains? I'm using oats, for reference. I built a 4 barrel steamer with 2 boilers to feed them, and only ran it once, and I think about %60-%75 of the bags worked out.
But there was a lot of factors involved in cooling the system (It sucking back in dirty air upon cooldown), having to remove the bags and transporting to another location, etc.
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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I do my grain in my PC I am only doing about 40 5 lb bags a week. So I only use a 5 lb bag of grain spawn a week (Get a spoodle and save on time and grain spawn). I do 2 bags every 2 weeks in my PC. When I was using more spawn than I needed I used to do my grain in my steamer and never had a problem. I build a hot plate from an old stove and hooked my presto 23 quart PC up to a PID. So I basically press a button and walk away my PC does all the work. I don't check it or monitor it. It is nice and well worth $75 I spent to build it. It saves me a ton of time and heats up quickly. I run it for 4 hours and it barely uses any water.



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humaninspiredlife
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Very cool! Thanks for the info. I've been lurking the forum for 10 years and have really enjoyed your teks and advice to others. You're very helpful, and intelligent =)
I'm going to fit my boilers with a PID and element according to your steamer tek, running propane on my burners really sucked to constantly adjust. Currently I just use my gaggle of AA's but.. it's time for an upgrade.
Is your unit cooled/unloaded in front of your flowhood? Also, did you pack your grain spawn bags in on top of eachother, or use a rack system?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Thank you for your kind words.
My steamer is not unloaded in front of my flow hood. But it does sit for a couple of days until it is totally cooled.
I never did that many bags of grain. The most were four 5 lb bags. No need for a rack system. I just placed them on top of my sub bags. I only use a 1/2 cup of spawn for each 5 lb bag. It does not take much to do the bags. I seal my grain bags with monoprice reclosable cable ties they are great, I also use them to seal my sub bags after I spawn. They are better and faster than an impulse sealer and way cheaper.
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Bsdgaou

Registered: 02/20/19
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From one 5lb bag you do 40 5lb fruiting blocks?
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SHROOMSISAY01
Mr. Shrooms



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Re: First run with bags. [Re: Bsdgaou]
#26826872 - 07/16/20 12:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yes, I use a 4 oz spoodle to spawn with. I place the spoodle in an empty spawn bag and seal the spawn bag and either PC at 15 psi for 20 minutes or place it in with my sub bags when I steam them.
The long handle on the spoodle helps keep from getting contamination in your bags...
https://www.amazon.com/Value-PPG-4-S-Food-Portioner-Handle/dp/B077RPCFRK/ref=sr_1_25?dchild=1&keywords=4+oz+spoodle&qid=1594922584&s=industrial&sr=1-25
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