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OfflineAtmozFear
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what other compounds, chemicals give a strain its character?
    #26799298 - 07/02/20 12:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I kinda hijacked someone else's thread a half hour ago (tho everyone ignored it anyway), so I thought it would make an interesting post...

I am very familiar with all the terpenes and terpenoids in weed that gives each strain its character, but now that someone brought it up I am curious- What other compounds or chemicals do different varieties of cubes have that gives each trip its character?  Or to be correct, what does any strain (meaning from each germinated spore) have different from one another besides psylocin and psylocybin?


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 12:55 PM)


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OfflineMycoactive
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear] * 1
    #26799309 - 07/02/20 12:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You probably won't find a good answer to this question. No compounds within psilocybin-containing mushrooms have been shown to have psychoactivity at the levels they're expressed in the mycelium/mushrooms other than psilocybin/psilocin. That said, a lot of anecdotal evidence suggests there are differences at least between different species that go beyond potency. Whether this comes down to set and setting or is a genuine chemical difference is an open question.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Mycoactive]
    #26799315 - 07/02/20 01:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:takingnotes:  thanks, appreciate it


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Mycoactive] * 2
    #26799331 - 07/02/20 01:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

While varities can exhibit tendencies or higher frequency of traits occurring, the potential for anything to happen is always present. While it’s probably likely that individual genetics could have wildly different quantities of given compounds it will still be within range for the species.

That all said we don’t even know all the compounds that are at play. Norpsilocin was just recently been discovered in cubes. There could be more.

Yet despite all that I’m not one to consider things like “spirituality” when evaluating effects. Visual effects vs body load is more what I’m balancing. Is there an increased sense of synesthesia? These are what I’m looking for.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26799337 - 07/02/20 01:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

maybe we should expand to that question then...

What kinds of sensations are consistent the most in what group of mushrooms with similar properties?


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26799346 - 07/02/20 01:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don’t think anyone can definitively answer those questions. Far too little work has been done in the field due to the illegal nature of it.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26799350 - 07/02/20 01:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

thanks... learned that nothing has been learned :grin:


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26799369 - 07/02/20 01:30 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Lol. Theres something in there that starts with a B too. The word reminds me of bacitraycin though its not that similar.

dennis McKenna was talking about extracting just that stuff and taking it. I can't remember what he said his experience was on it though.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26799376 - 07/02/20 01:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The ones I know of are
Psilocin
Psilocybin
Baeocystin
Norbaeocystin
Norpsilocin (discovered in cubes).


There are some people who believe there is also a compound in azures that causes temporary paralysis. Some people might be doing some work on finding it.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26799380 - 07/02/20 01:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
Lol. Theres something in there that starts with a B too. The word reminds me of bacitraycin though its not that similar.

dennis McKenna was talking about extracting just that stuff and taking it. I can't remember what he said his experience was on it though.



Thanks Roger!  :takingnotes:  I'll have to look that up.  I read in a kindle book that the most consistently strongest cube (besides mutants) is Amazonian... let me see if I can locate that again (yes I know that every spore is its own strain and all that, but we're talking cubes with similar properties not varieties).

Edit:  definitely will look into those Pasty!  Also from another kindle book- azure's are among the strongest psylocybe species correct?  at least in most cases?

(I pay $10 a month for Kindle... I still love reading textbooks)


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 01:44 PM)


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InvisibleRoger Clemency
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26799718 - 07/02/20 03:50 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Dude I used to drive around with a fucking book in my hand. I got pulled over once going around a traffic circle cuz some cops saw me one handing while driving and reading :lol: I was really good at it and my drives became so nice. I would look down and gather a whole sentence in my head and then look back at the road as I read it in my head, then peek back at the book, back at the road.

I wouldn't do it in traffic or city driving though. I was addicted to reading for like 5 years. I still read a lot but mostly i listen to books now since i upgraded from the flip phone.

It all started with some fantasy book I came up on in jail. It didn't even have a cover so I didn't know what it was called for the longest time. I eventually discovered it in a book store while browsing shelves. I don't remember the exact book in the series but it was an L.E. Modesitt jr book. Magic of recluse maybe. I thought people who read books for fun were just simpletons before that lol.

Back on track - Baeocystin - that's the one.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26799722 - 07/02/20 03:52 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If you ask me, the only thing that has an impact is psilocin at the end of the day. I'm willing to entertain the idea that other compounds have some effects, but honestly I don't really believe that they do. Even psilocybin is just broken down into psilocin. But I'd be happy to be wrong about that.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26799900 - 07/02/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
If you ask me, the only thing that has an impact is psilocin at the end of the day. I'm willing to entertain the idea that other compounds have some effects, but honestly I don't really believe that they do. Even psilocybin is just broken down into psilocin. But I'd be happy to be wrong about that.




Then simply couple this with
1) the Amount of the Psilocin in the given shroom, and
2) the ease at which that amount is metabolized into the system.

It takes different amounts of time to digest mushroom tissue, and the array of variability people experience is often tied to the rate at which it "hits" your system.

Slower, measured release (more fungus tissue to break down) convey different felt experiences than OHFUCKITSALLHITTINGATONCE trips.

I think people naturally over-complicate mushrooms in the end-- with the immense variability of people's unique body state and mental equipment, nobody is ever going to "solve" a subjective experience. nooneman is right-- they are basically all the same thing. If they weren't, we'd have figured it out after 80 years of analysis.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Roger Clemency]
    #26799916 - 07/02/20 05:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Roger Clemency said:
It all started with some fantasy book I came up on in jail. It didn't even have a cover so I didn't know what it was called for the longest time. I eventually discovered it in a book store while browsing shelves. I don't remember the exact book in the series but it was an L.E. Modesitt jr book. Magic of recluse maybe. I thought people who read books for fun were just simpletons before that lol.

Back on track - Baeocystin - that's the one.




haha I love Lord of the Rings!!  and Willow!  and now I know how you rose so fast to notoriety in this community... those who read succeed!

I'm about to google Baeocystin now... (was in the shower washing my grundle)

Edit:  hmmm one of the four major psychoactive compounds in shrooms...  though it is minor within that group...

I gotta read more about that and norbaeocystin- which seems to have been mentioned a few times the last few days...


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 05:39 PM)


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OfflinePhrontist
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26799927 - 07/02/20 05:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

From an article I read earlier today:

“The psilocybin molecule has a phosphate group attached to the oxygen atom at the 4-carbon position. When psilocybin is ingested this phosphate group is cleaved off in the body to produce psilocin which is actually the psycho-active molecule. There are some theories on what role this phosphate group plays both in Psilocybe mushrooms and once ingested by humans...”

So yeah, we still don’t know so much about how or why these mushrooms do what they do. Unfortunately, the ignorance and fear mongering of “the war on drugs” cost us decades of potential research, and scientists are only recently being allowed to trickle back into this learning space.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26799936 - 07/02/20 05:44 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

yeah I heard the government recently started doing studies on shrooms and LSD... anyway, I don't consider anything that comes in whole from the earth a drug.  that said, I DO consider LSD a drug and I don't like the idea of ingesting a chemical... not to say I haven't :evil:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26799984 - 07/02/20 06:05 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I thought the same thing until I tried pans.

Completely different experience, imo there’s no doubt more than just psilo involved.


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OfflineAtmozFear
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26799991 - 07/02/20 06:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

in general, are they harder to grow?


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26800015 - 07/02/20 06:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
The ones I know of are
Psilocin
Psilocybin
Baeocystin
Norbaeocystin
Norpsilocin (discovered in cubes).


There are some people who believe there is also a compound in azures that causes temporary paralysis. Some people might be doing some work on finding it.




I think it's called aeruginascin


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800019 - 07/02/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I read somewhere that wood lovers have a higher concentration of baeocystin. Not sure how or if that affects the trip though.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800021 - 07/02/20 06:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I guess yeah. Not much though. You just have to dial stuff in and keep it there or they’ll abort instantly. Once you get things set up and running they need no maintenance and grow super fast.

I’d just expect the first couple runs to not go well until things are dialed in.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a] * 1
    #26800129 - 07/02/20 07:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
I thought the same thing until I tried pans.

Completely different experience, imo there’s no doubt more than just psilo involved.




With all due respect (and I mean that)-- you can't point to any substantiated science that shows it isn't psilocybin/psilocin doing all the lifting with all the Psilocybes.

Baeocystin is always brought up, but it is an N-demethylated derivative of psilocybin (I looked it up, lol), so you're back to the beginning.
It may very well be the ratio of psilocybin/psilocin that makes different types feel distinct, but there's no mysterious chemicals in them but their namesake.

For every person that swears certain mushrooms are unique, you can find others that have tried a wide variety claim they are all giving the same basic effects.

Not picking on you A.K.A. , you're a favorite poster of mine for sure and an amazing cultivator-- but there's just zero evidence that it's anything but psilocybin/psilocin working the magic in all "magic" shrooms-- that's just a fact.

If there's any brand new science showing that a new chemical that all prior analysts missed over all these years is making different psychedelic types behave in a pharmacologically distinct way, it would be very big news in the shroom scene and this forum, and would be heavily discussed by the heavy-hitters/scientists on this forum.

There's a reason it's not part of the formal data discussed by researchers, but instead remains a subjective assertion of feelings and memories on forum boards--


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26800139 - 07/02/20 07:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup:  :takingnotes:


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 07:18 PM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800155 - 07/02/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I would speculate to say that it is a combination of active and inactive compounds that give each variety of mushroom their differing trips.
Psilocin/psilocybin are potentiated by the different concentrations of Baeocystin, Norbaeocystin, and Norpsilocin perhaps?


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: mushhead] * 1
    #26800172 - 07/02/20 07:36 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Don’t worry man I’m not gonna get offended, I totally see where you’re coming from. It could very well be the ratios involved. Actually I’d say it’s more than likely the ratios but I tend to think the known ones besides psilocybin and psilocin are what makes the difference. Especially since people who try pure psilocybin say it’s also different than mushrooms.

Same deal with cacti. San Pedro is my all time favorite, which I thought was just mescaline. The first time I ran an extraction I was actually disappointed. It was still awesome but felt like it was missing something compared to what I was used to with the full spectrum tea.

I really can’t believe somebody hasn’t done more in-depth research in a lab on mushroom species. At least now they’re starting too. Better late than never.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: mushhead]
    #26800180 - 07/02/20 07:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mushhead said:
I would speculate to say that it is a combination of active and inactive compounds that give each variety of mushroom their differing trips.
Psilocin/psilocybin are potentiated by the different concentrations of Baeocystin, Norbaeocystin, and Norpsilocin perhaps?




Firstly, these are all derivatives from the main chemical at the heart of it all: Psilocin.
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.
If some potentiation existed, it would be in the literature-- it is not. These things are all broken down into the same root chemical in the human body-- psilocin. How would a chemical that is broken down into the same chemical potentiate the chemical? It would merely ADD to the quantity of the root chemical metabolized. More psilocin. NOT supercharged psilocin-- just more.

Maybe the staggered rate of metabolism makes you feel different, maybe the waves of alks cause the gates to fall in your mind at such a way that it lubricates the experience better for some-- but in the end, your brain is tripping on psilocin.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26800200 - 07/02/20 07:54 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Same deal with cacti. San Pedro is my all time favorite, which I thought was just mescaline. The first time I ran an extraction I was actually disappointed. It was still awesome but felt like it was missing something compared to what I was used to with the full spectrum tea.





I've never tried extracted mescaline, but I've had a number of cactus experiences, and there are definitely a cocktail of chemicals present in different types.
A foot of Bridgesii is not the same experience as a foot of Pachanoi, and no tricho is like Peyote.
Each branch of that family has the exact characteristics that people are chasing in the mushroom conversation-- different complimentary chemicals surrounding the root chemical mescaline. Do a search on Keeper Trout and you'll find a book written on the chemistry of various psychoactive cactus.
EDIT: here it is: https://troutsnotes.com/pdf/CactusChemistry_2013_Light.pdf

:cheers:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26800231 - 07/02/20 08:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Quote:

mushhead said:
I would speculate to say that it is a combination of active and inactive compounds that give each variety of mushroom their differing trips.
Psilocin/psilocybin are potentiated by the different concentrations of Baeocystin, Norbaeocystin, and Norpsilocin perhaps?




Firstly, these are all derivatives from the main chemical at the heart of it all: Psilocin.
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.
If some potentiation existed, it would be in the literature-- it is not. These things are all broken down into the same root chemical in the human body-- psilocin. How would a chemical that is broken down into the same chemical potentiate the chemical? It would merely ADD to the quantity of the root chemical metabolized. More psilocin. NOT supercharged psilocin-- just more.

Maybe the staggered rate of metabolism makes you feel different, maybe the waves of alks cause the gates to fall in your mind at such a way that it lubricates the experience better for some-- but in the end, your brain is tripping on psilocin.




Except psilocin has an additional methyl group that baeocystin doesn't. This could effect brain chemistry similarly to how methamphetamine and amphetamine are separated by a methyl group. Lack of evidence does not equal the evidence of something lacking.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26800290 - 07/02/20 08:41 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
Lack of evidence does not equal the evidence of something lacking.




This.

Other ingredients exist at such minuscule levels in a fruit that it is nearly impossible at present to scientifically determine what effect they have, if any.

With how long fungi have been around perfecting their many gifts, and how efficiently they tackle their myriad duties, my money is on every piece being an important part of the puzzle.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26800300 - 07/02/20 08:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You're welcome to waste your time on hypotheticals all you like guys-- your internet opinion doesn't change anything.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal] * 1
    #26800374 - 07/02/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’ve never found intelligent discussion to be a waste of time. I was just pointing out that scientifically speaking, those ingredients cannot be called anything other than inactive since there is no indisputable proof of their function. This, however, should not be mistaken for indisputable proof that they have no function.

“From a scientific point of view, it would be really interesting to scale up production of the various intermediates and natural derivatives of the psilocybin biosynthetic pathway such as baeocystin and aeruginascin. In our study we demonstrated the production of all (known) intermediates and derivatives of the psilocybin biosynthetic pathway and scaling up the production of these molecules will be an important follow-up step. Compared to psilocybin, we know almost nothing about the therapeutic potential of these molecules. The main reason for this is that while psilocybin can accumulate in Psilocybe mushrooms, up to 1% of the total dry weight, the concentration of these “minor” products is hundreds of times lower, making extraction of meaningful quantities practically impossible.”


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26800398 - 07/02/20 09:43 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.



This is completely false.  With marijuana, there are dozens of inactive compounds that contribute to the 'type' of high called terpenes and terpenoids.  These give different strains their unique taste and smell which are bonded with the experience of the high.  It's what every single High Times Magazine is focusing half their articles on.  :nono:
That was an extremely uneducated assertion.  You lost all credibility in this discussion.

Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
Except psilocin has an additional methyl group that baeocystin doesn't. This could effect brain chemistry similarly to how methamphetamine and amphetamine are separated by a methyl group. Lack of evidence does not equal the evidence of something lacking.



THIS IS KEY.

Quote:

A.k.a said:
Each branch of that family has the exact characteristics that people are chasing in the mushroom conversation-- different complimentary chemicals surrounding the root chemical mescaline.



Again, KEY.


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Edited by AtmozFear (07/02/20 09:55 PM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26800421 - 07/02/20 10:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I believe there is definitely an "entourage effect" similar to cannabis. Until fairly recently most people didn't have a clue about CBD and even more recently about terpenes and their enchaining effects on a cannabis high. Different strains and different phenotypes can have wildly varying effects.

I believe the same is true with cubes. I think we can all agree the main pyscoactive compounds are Psilocybin which then get metabolized by your system into Psilocin (trace amounts also present in the mushroom itself).

Science will eventually catch up in mycology and discover the symphony of natural compounds that create the experience. A big part of science is the discovery and not just what has already been discovered.

Saying a cube is a cube is like saying all grapes taste the same (tell that to a vineyard or master winemaker and see what their response is :wink: )


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Edited by maxmush (07/03/20 09:56 AM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26800438 - 07/02/20 10:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I like that metaphor. But I suspect that if some rank noob asked a master vintner what the best tasting grape was he might also get a similar answer. The nuance of the discussion is sometimes more than most people feel like explaining to noobs, so they say cubes are cubes.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26800444 - 07/02/20 10:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

At that point it starts getting subjective too. No accounting for taste when it comes to “best qualities”.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26800708 - 07/03/20 05:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
I believe there is definitely an "entourage effect" similar to cannabis. Until fairly recently most people didn't have a clue about CBD and even more recently about terpenes and their enchaining effects on a cannabis high. Different strains and different prototypes can have wildly varying effects.



Right, "entourage effects"... there's a pot grower!


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26800713 - 07/03/20 05:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
I believe there is definitely an "entourage effect" similar to cannabis. Until fairly recently most people didn't have a clue about CBD and even more recently about terpenes and their enchaining effects on a cannabis high. Different strains and different prototypes can have wildly varying effects.

I believe the same is true with cubes. I think we can all agree the main pyscoactive compounds are Psilocybin which then get metabolized by your system into Psilocin (trace amounts also present in the mushroom itself).

Science will eventually catch up in mycology and discover the symphony of natural compounds that create the experience. A big part of science is the discovery and not just what has already been discovered.

Saying a cube is a cube is like saying all grapes taste the same (tell that to a vineyard or master winemaker and see what their response is :wink: )




I work in cannabis and have learned a lot and this is what founds my faith in the unknown compounds in mushrooms. Like, if we've been studying this flower and keep discovering new cannabinoids and terpenes, then why is it impossible for a mushroom to be the same? Like part of my interest in mycology is strictly limited to how much we don't know about these things. Lots of potential under all sorts of different rocks.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E] * 1
    #26800747 - 07/03/20 05:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Don't get too excited, there are good reasons to believe that baeocystin and norbaeocystin have no impact on the trip. They often occur in amounts so small that the dose would simply be too small to have any impact, except in specific species of mushrooms known to have higher amounts. Even then, some people have tried the pure compounds and reported that they're either inactive, or only very weakly active at high doses. Cubensis simply has too little baeocystin and norbaeocystin to have any impact on the trip. In terms of other compounds that might be in mushrooms, the problem there is that the chemical compounds contained in magic mushrooms have been thoroughly studied and no others have been identified (despite quite a bit of looking). That doesn't necessarily mean that there are none, but it's not a good sign.

Pastywhite's post is the closest to the truth. If we're talking about old time members, then it's easier to have a serious discussion about the possibilities. But that discussion has to start from the base of knowledge that we have, and that is that according to all the actual evidence, the only thing that's active is psilocin. Once you start from that point of view, then we can have a discussion of "well, maybe psilocybin isn't completely inactive (or maybe baeocystin still impacts the trip somehow), and what would that mean and how could we tell, and would it make a difference anyway, and under what circumstances?" But that's a nuanced discussion that comes from experience rather than jumping on a bandwagon. If we just jump straight to "THEY'RE ALL ACTIVE OMG BAEOCYSTIN" then I think we're headed in the wrong direction, or at least we're not starting from a sound foothold.

I'd be willing to entertain the idea that they are active, but that has to somehow take into account the evidence saying that they're not, and it has to take into account the fact that they occur in very small amounts.

90% of the different cube varieties are just marketing. The old timers don't like to mention that much because we don't want to step on the toes of the sellers, and people seem to enjoy the idea anyway. But it's mostly just marketing.

Where the idea that there might be some other things active in mushrooms comes from is the unusually wide variety of different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis, and rare unusual effects that occasionally occur especially in higher doses. Still, there's good reason to believe all of these things are just the effects of psilocin. However, pure psilocin tends to be a different experience than mushrooms, and that also adds some weight to the idea that there might be other actives. But the best current explanation for this is that psilocybin is only slowly converted to psilocin which changes the duration of the experience.

If you're expecting there to be some revelation about the impact of other chemicals on the experience, I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800835 - 07/03/20 06:50 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I disagree with most of that, but it is well thought-out and obviously backed by a bunch of reading, so I respect what you just said.

Again, remember that all those 'entourage' compounds in pot are at very low levels, too, yet they have a profound effect.

Thank you for your input  :takingnotes:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800844 - 07/03/20 06:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Don't get too excited, there are good reasons to believe that baeocystin and norbaeocystin have no impact on the trip. They often occur in amounts so small that the dose would simply be too small to have any impact, except in specific species of mushrooms known to have higher amounts. Even then, some people have tried the pure compounds and reported that they're either inactive, or only very weakly active at high doses. Cubensis simply has too little baeocystin and norbaeocystin to have any impact on the trip. In terms of other compounds that might be in mushrooms, the problem there is that the chemical compounds contained in magic mushrooms have been thoroughly studied and no others have been identified (despite quite a bit of looking). That doesn't necessarily mean that there are none, but it's not a good sign.

Pastywhite's post is the closest to the truth. If we're talking about old time members, then it's easier to have a serious discussion about the possibilities. But that discussion has to start from the base of knowledge that we have, and that is that according to all the actual evidence, the only thing that's active is psilocin. Once you start from that point of view, then we can have a discussion of "well, maybe psilocybin isn't completely inactive (or maybe baeocystin still impacts the trip somehow), and what would that mean and how could we tell, and would it make a difference anyway, and under what circumstances?" But that's a nuanced discussion that comes from experience rather than jumping on a bandwagon. If we just jump straight to "THEY'RE ALL ACTIVE OMG BAEOCYSTIN" then I think we're headed in the wrong direction, or at least we're not starting from a sound foothold.

I'd be willing to entertain the idea that they are active, but that has to somehow take into account the evidence saying that they're not, and it has to take into account the fact that they occur in very small amounts.

90% of the different cube varieties are just marketing. The old timers don't like to mention that much because we don't want to step on the toes of the sellers, and people seem to enjoy the idea anyway. But it's mostly just marketing.

Where the idea that there might be some other things active in mushrooms comes from is the unusually wide variety of different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis, and rare unusual effects that occasionally occur especially in higher doses. Still, there's good reason to believe all of these things are just the effects of psilocin. However, pure psilocin tends to be a different experience than mushrooms, and that also adds some weight to the idea that there might be other actives. But the best current explanation for this is that psilocybin is only slowly converted to psilocin which changes the duration of the experience.

If you're expecting there to be some revelation about the impact of other chemicals on the experience, I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.




Right, and just let me explain my rationale for my willingness to die on this hill. In cannabis we know that the "entourage effect" can produce better results in respects to treating medical conditions. In Minnesota (the most restrictive medical cannabis market) we are able to see tremendous results with autistic and seizure patients by adding a trace amount of THC to their CBD regimen. On the flip side, treating pain and PTSD with just THC can work, however we see much more positive results with the trace amount of CBD. These bind to different receptors and allow for different neurotransmitters to be available.

I just want someone to try to understand where I am coming from. If CBD is not psychoactive but can alter the effects of cognitive ability while under the psychoactive effects of THC, then why do we have to say baeocystin, aeruginascin, and norbaeocystin couldn't possibly play a role? Maybe the MAO action focuses more on cleaving these and make more psilocin bioavailable, maybe they don't and it's literally nothing.

If I was on here arguing the earth is flat when we clearly have satellites and shit, then I could understand. But I'm on here speculating a really understudided field due to a lot of limitations.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: coAsTal]
    #26800881 - 07/03/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

coAsTal said:
Secondly, any inactive compounds are BY DEFINITION inactive, and have no effects. They aren't contributing, or they would be defined as active.




You're forgetting about catalysts - chemicals which are inactive by themselves but make the chemical reaction of other chemicals go faster.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800883 - 07/03/20 07:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Don't get too excited, there are good reasons to believe that baeocystin and norbaeocystin have no impact on the trip. They often occur in amounts so small that the dose would simply be too small to have any impact, except in specific species of mushrooms known to have higher amounts. Even then, some people have tried the pure compounds and reported that they're either inactive, or only very weakly active at high doses. Cubensis simply has too little baeocystin and norbaeocystin to have any impact on the trip. In terms of other compounds that might be in mushrooms, the problem there is that the chemical compounds contained in magic mushrooms have been thoroughly studied and no others have been identified (despite quite a bit of looking). That doesn't necessarily mean that there are none, but it's not a good sign.

Pastywhite's post is the closest to the truth. If we're talking about old time members, then it's easier to have a serious discussion about the possibilities. But that discussion has to start from the base of knowledge that we have, and that is that according to all the actual evidence, the only thing that's active is psilocin. Once you start from that point of view, then we can have a discussion of "well, maybe psilocybin isn't completely inactive (or maybe baeocystin still impacts the trip somehow), and what would that mean and how could we tell, and would it make a difference anyway, and under what circumstances?" But that's a nuanced discussion that comes from experience rather than jumping on a bandwagon. If we just jump straight to "THEY'RE ALL ACTIVE OMG BAEOCYSTIN" then I think we're headed in the wrong direction, or at least we're not starting from a sound foothold.

I'd be willing to entertain the idea that they are active, but that has to somehow take into account the evidence saying that they're not, and it has to take into account the fact that they occur in very small amounts.

90% of the different cube varieties are just marketing. The old timers don't like to mention that much because we don't want to step on the toes of the sellers, and people seem to enjoy the idea anyway. But it's mostly just marketing.

Where the idea that there might be some other things active in mushrooms comes from is the unusually wide variety of different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis, and rare unusual effects that occasionally occur especially in higher doses. Still, there's good reason to believe all of these things are just the effects of psilocin. However, pure psilocin tends to be a different experience than mushrooms, and that also adds some weight to the idea that there might be other actives. But the best current explanation for this is that psilocybin is only slowly converted to psilocin which changes the duration of the experience.

If you're expecting there to be some revelation about the impact of other chemicals on the experience, I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.



:werd:
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: nooneman]
    #26800939 - 07/03/20 07:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said: different experiences that people occasionally have, things like woodlovers paralysis




It’s funny you bring this up, because this whole conversation had me thinking about an article about WLP from a month ago (bonding is mine):

“Dr Andrew Chadeayne—CEO of American company CaaMTech, which investigates the potential benefits of chemicals other than psilocybin in psychoactive mushrooms—tells VICE “it would make sense” that aeruginascin might cause WLP because of its structural similarity to bufotenidine: a toxin present in certain toad species that is known to cause paralysis.

“They're really similar molecules,” Dr Beck agrees, adding that in his experience, WLP “feels like a neuromuscular blocker.” This means that something is potentially stopping the signals sent from the brain to the muscles at the point where the nerves make contact, just as bufotenidine has been shown to do at the nicotinic receptors.

When VICE put the theory to Dr Cheadyne that aeruginascin could block neuromuscular receptors, he responded by saying that “activity at nicotinic acetylcholine receptors at the neuromuscular junction makes perfect sense”. He hastened to point out, however, that all of this is highly speculative as there are no studies that show the total chemical composition of psilocybe species.”


I think it’s important in discussions like this to remember that we have so little definitive and complete information. Saying that all ingredients are important is just as speculative as saying some of them make no difference.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26800961 - 07/03/20 07:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

dlj403 said:
You're forgetting about catalysts - chemicals which are inactive by themselves but make the chemical reaction of other chemicals go faster.



yup that too!

Quote:

Phrontist said:
I think it’s important in discussions like this to remember that we have so little definitive and complete information. Saying that all ingredients are important is just as speculative as saying some of them make no difference.



:thumbup::thumbup:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26801253 - 07/03/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You will get people that fall within a spectrum of hard scientific data to pure anecdotal reports. I believe discussion and debates are a good thing and so is speculation. This is how new ideas get discovered. Perhaps a discussion in the advanced section may be more appropriate (not to say noobs dont have valid input, so no offense - i am a noob here myself)

I personally believe each variety does have different effects. After working with nutraceuticals for decades, to me, this has to be true (but currently unproven). For example, different species of herbs will have different effects. Scientifically this is because of their different chemical makeup, anecdotally they hold different "intrinsic" values.

Marketing and "placebo" will have some affect (as they are correlated), but to claim it is purely marketing stifles curiosity. Placebo definately has a strong affect (not to be confused with effect), and shouldnt be underestimated, that i will agree.


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Edited by maxmush (07/03/20 04:17 PM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26801393 - 07/03/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
Marketing and "placebo" will have some affect (as they are correlated), but the claim it is purely marketing stifles curiosity. Placebo definately has a strong affect (not to be confused with effect), and shouldnt be underestimated, that i will agree.



Yes 'placebo' is very powerful... that's a lot how antidepressants work (with exceptions of course).

What are nutraceuticals?  I have an idea from the name, but am interested to see where it ties into your experience with mushrooms.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26801774 - 07/03/20 04:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The quick answer is: Nutraceuticals are products, which other than nutrition are also used as medicine. A nutraceutical product may be defined as a substance, which has physiological benefit or provides protection against chronic disease.

I work with large and medium scale labs/companies to further develop better nutritional products for customers. I mostly work in the novel ingredient area and I am am more on the research side of R&D.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26801798 - 07/03/20 04:37 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I’m surprised they have r&d. I guess there’s bullshitters and legit places.

My only experience with nutraceuticals has been people involved with pyramid schemes.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26801881 - 07/03/20 05:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

maxmush said:
The quick answer is: Nutraceuticals are products, which other than nutrition are also used as medicine. A nutraceutical product may be defined as a substance, which has physiological benefit or provides protection against chronic disease.

I work with large and medium scale labs/companies to further develop better nutritional products for customers. I mostly work in the novel ingredient area and I am am more on the research side of R&D.




So an apple a day keeps the doctor away, but as a business, got it. Lol


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26801953 - 07/03/20 06:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There is a lot of snake oil and misrepresented products out there, but there are also just as many legitimate ones. I have been contracted by some of the top companies internationally. I consider myself lucky because to me its not work, I love research and discovering novel uses or compounds in nature :smile:

BTW I forgot to tell you i love your handle - Myc_Hunt lol!


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Edited by maxmush (07/03/20 06:06 PM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #26804557 - 07/05/20 02:37 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I know they found serotonin in Pans.
And to be honest, god knows how many compounds were found, but since the researchers had no interest in them, they did not report them.
First you must understand how HPLC works in order to speak about active makeup.
It's true, there may be a couple of other compounds that are not "active" but that synergize with psilocin.
Because yeah, the pan trip is different.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: peyotillo]
    #26804626 - 07/05/20 05:23 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

peyotillo said:
I know they found serotonin in Pans.
And to be honest, god knows how many compounds were found, but since the researchers had no interest in them, they did not report them.
First you must understand how HPLC works in order to speak about active makeup.
It's true, there may be a couple of other compounds that are not "active" but that synergize with psilocin.
Because yeah, the pan trip is different.



Right, and that's why I'm thinking "well if it's all just metabolized into psilocin then every mushroom species would produce the same trip." But they clearly don't. People often report more visuals on pans and more introspective thinking on cubes whereas azures can blast you off the planet. Like, there just has to be more to it than just chalking it up to basically nothing


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26805020 - 07/05/20 10:54 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

To my mind it's perfectly possible that synergistic interactions may take place between psilocin and any number of the additional compounds within varieties of Psilocybe spp.

I mean, just because a molecule has been isolated and ingested and didn't produce any noticeable effects, doesn't mean that it didn't cause a sub-perceptual effect.

Psilocin is a serotonin 2A receptor agonist, and the 2A receptor is known to mediate memory, learning, emotional regulation, light and colour perception, hormone levels (eg oxytocin, prolactin etc), neuronal excitation, some behaviours, anti-inflammatory responses etc etc etc. Basically it is involved in a LOT of very complex stuff that goes down in the brain and can account for all of what is experienced in a trip.
So sure psilocin does a bang up job of inducing a trip all by itself, but if different species of shrooms are known for being more visual/introspective/whatever, then there may be some other constituent acting either on psilocin, or on other receptors.

Modern research trials use a synthesized version of psilocybin without any of the additional constituents found in the mushrooms themselves. I would be interested for them to repeat some of the brain imaging they did with psilocybin with some whole mushrooms of different species to see if the perceived differences such as 'this on is more visual' can link up with an increase in activity in the visual centres of the brain.

Ultimately, the question 'what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character?' is really hard to answer. It seems that psilocin accounts for all the effects of a trip quite nicely, and set and setting are known to factor into the character of a trip in a significant way. Despite this, I believe there is still room for the constituent makeup of a particular shroom to impart a unique character into it's trip. Having said that, I couldn't even begin to suggest what those 'character constituents' might be.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: mycellie]
    #26805182 - 07/05/20 12:35 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mycellie said:
Modern research trials use a synthesized version of psilocybin without any of the additional constituents found in the mushrooms themselves. I would be interested for them to repeat some of the brain imaging they did with psilocybin with some whole mushrooms of different species to see if the perceived differences such as 'this on is more visual' can link up with an increase in activity in the visual centres of the brain



That would be a very objective approach.

Also, I completely buy that the speed of digestion of psilocin contributes immensely to the character of the trip;  just like deniers of this OP idea keep stating  :smirk:
so I got ya guys, I agree with this!


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtmozFear]
    #26805446 - 07/05/20 02:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

AtmozFear said:

That would be a very objective approach.







There's currently companies filing patents for their synthesis of psilocybin in order to raise funds for taking psilocybin therapy through the next stages of research and onto being a licensed medicine. May happen in the next 5-10 years, and when it does and there's hot dolla to be made, I reckon we might start seeing some research into potentially synergistic consituents, funded by big pharma companies wanting their patentable medicine to have the edge on competition.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Phrontist]
    #26983410 - 10/13/20 01:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Phrontist said:
Quote:

nooneman said:

“Dr Andrew Chadeayne—CEO of American company CaaMTech, which investigates the potential benefits of chemicals other than psilocybin in psychoactive mushrooms—tells VICE “it would make sense” that aeruginascin might cause WLP because of its structural similarity to bufotenidine: a toxin present in certain toad species that is known to cause paralysis.

“They're really similar molecules,” Dr Beck agrees, adding that in his experience, WLP “feels like a neuromuscular blocker.” This means that something is potentially stopping the signals sent from the brain to the muscles at the point where the nerves make contact, just as bufotenidine has been shown to do at the nicotinic receptors.

“activity at nicotinic acetylcholine receptors at the neuromuscular junction makes perfect sense”. 







When I first heard of Woodlover's Paralysis, I immediately thought people were describing poisonings by amphibian poisons, fish poisons, etc.

I recently saw a very similar article comparing  aeruginascin and bufotenadine and found that very curious.



I too am curious about different effects from the various compounds in mushroom species.

I don't have enough trip experience to weigh in either way, but I'd be much more convinced of differing effect in different species than differing effects in different "strains" of cubes.

It's a disservice to the collective knowledge of trippers and contrary to logic to dismiss people's anecdotal accounts based on a lack of research into the various interactions that might be happening between mushroom compounds as we metabolize them. This is simply due to prohibition and we would have this information well documented by now otherwise.

The entourage effect in Cannabis is widely accepted by science, and the study of the active effects of the "inactive" compounds in cannabis is the biggest thing in the industry right now.

As drug policies relax and research becomes more available, there are a lot of  very smart folks who are going to need to eat their hat in retrospect.


Edited by karri0n (10/13/20 01:43 PM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #26983486 - 10/13/20 02:33 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

So I will chip in for what my input is worth.  I recently completed and celebrated my 600th trip on mushrooms.

I cannot offer anything scientific to this discussion, but would like to offer what I've experienced that I'm 100% sure of and think is relevant to this topic.  I have had strains that very clearly always have the same characteristic trip, to the point that I believe I could determine which of them I was taking in a blind test. 

If for example, a strain of mazatepec has one particular characteristic that I could identify every time I took it, regardless of set/setting, etc. that seems to me to be excellent (though anecdotal) evidence that there is more at play in a given mushroom strain than just psilocin/psilocybin content.  Now I would be the first to say this has not been the case with every strain...just some outlyers that stood out from the pack for some reason, but I still felt like that's relevant to this conversation.

Take that for what it's worth.  I'm treading very carefully because I've been sternly berated for suggesting anything more than psilocybin content is at work in past posts.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: AtomHeart]
    #26983558 - 10/13/20 03:26 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Could have most to do with the ratio of everything contained within the mushroom.  mycellium likely degrade and uptake minerals in various ratios.

mushrooms have terpenes too.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: trippleblack]
    #26983658 - 10/13/20 04:35 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Then there's all this mess right here.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/the-brain-gut-connection

Could be that there are compounds in some active species/varieties that don't act at all on the "big brain", but influence it through the gut-brain connection. There's plenty more research to be done in this area. It is far from settled.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: DonkeyHodie]
    #26983753 - 10/13/20 05:31 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Just the difference in the trip between species that are all “psilocybin” is more than enough to convince me there’s a lot of complexity going on.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26984563 - 10/14/20 06:37 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I have no input, just really enjoying this thread and want to bump it.

Love you big brain Bois :heart:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Zakkery]
    #26984645 - 10/14/20 08:04 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I still think the substrate has something to do with it too. Growing on rye vs oats or something. I'm the furthest thing from a scientist though


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E]
    #26984739 - 10/14/20 09:09 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
I still think the substrate has something to do with it too. Growing on rye vs oats or something. I'm the furthest thing from a scientist though




:justno:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26984784 - 10/14/20 09:36 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
I thought the same thing until I tried pans.

Completely different experience, imo there’s no doubt more than just psilo involved.





Is there any particular quality that you could say is different experientially?

Pans have smaller and more delicate bodies than cubes usually. I would imagine the rate at which the material is broken down and metabolized is different. But if that were all, then this would be observable by making a tea or extraction.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n] * 1
    #26985348 - 10/14/20 03:06 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

A higher dose of psilocin with less body load probably feels entirely different to some people tho. :shrug:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Inocuole] * 1
    #26985387 - 10/14/20 03:30 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

For me pans last longer and are way more visual in a different way than cubes are. Plus they have a different buzz to them.

The first time I took them it threw me off because I felt nearly sober and was thinking maybe I didn’t take enough. Then out of nowhere the tile floor fused together and started bubbling. It could just be me specifically but at .5-75 I get very little mind fuck. It’s almost like taking a pill that induces nothing but extremely vivid hallucinations.

A friend that says he never really gets visuals from cubes tried some and was flipping out telling me the flowers are melting and the pool tiles are spinning and pulsing.

Idk it’s just different. If I was dosed blind I would’ve guessed I had taken lsd.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: A.k.a]
    #26985656 - 10/14/20 05:38 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

A.k.a said:
For me pans last longer and are way more visual in a different way than cubes are. Plus they have a different buzz to them.

The first time I took them it threw me off because I felt nearly sober and was thinking maybe I didn’t take enough. Then out of nowhere the tile floor fused together and started bubbling. It could just be me specifically but at .5-75 I get very little mind fuck. It’s almost like taking a pill that induces nothing but extremely vivid hallucinations.

A friend that says he never really gets visuals from cubes tried some and was flipping out telling me the flowers are melting and the pool tiles are spinning and pulsing.

Idk it’s just different. If I was dosed blind I would’ve guessed I had taken lsd.




Damn, lol. Now I'm just pumped to try pans.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Inocuole]
    #26985740 - 10/14/20 06:21 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

Myc_Hunt said:
I still think the substrate has something to do with it too. Growing on rye vs oats or something. I'm the furthest thing from a scientist though




:justno:





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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Wall.E] * 1
    #26986930 - 10/15/20 11:59 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:thatsinteresting:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Inocuole]
    #26986993 - 10/15/20 12:34 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah... pans and gyms both have been qualitatively different in an obvious sense when I've taken them.  The reason for that difference with gyms already has an established basis.  I'm hard pressed to believe that there has been a complete mapping of chemical structures of enough psilocybin containing species to render a judgement.  I definitely have cultures that exhibit distinct effects that are hard to qualify on paper, but easy to recognize when ingested.  RW is a superb example, as is my Malaysian mutation.  I will gladly buy into the belief that the gut plays a role.  Matter of fact,  I would suggest that this is possibly one of the larger missing pieces of the mystery in question.  Proteins,  synergistic inactives,  bacteria...  There's a lot of wiggle room there.  The next ten years are going to be revelatory.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: alaskappalachian]
    #26987310 - 10/15/20 03:39 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

alaskappalachian said:
The reason for that difference with gyms already has an established basis.




Is this due to baeocystin or some other compound? I'm having trouble finding any information on this since most of the online discussion seems to be focused around just which members of gym are psychoactive currently.

Not finding any scholarly articles either.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #26987660 - 10/15/20 08:55 PM (3 years, 3 months ago)

I started this thread several weeks ago with a few articles:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/26907559/page/1

I have always believed that each sub species as well as other species has effects beyond your basic psychoactives.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: maxmush]
    #27189220 - 02/06/21 07:29 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

This thread is old but one of the better discussions i've seen on this matter, so shamefully bumping.

New research shows that all of the psychoactive mushrooms tested, including cubensis, contain Harmala Alkaloids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7003923/

Harmala Alkaloids are the same alkaloids in banisteriopsis caapi(ayahuasca vine) and Syrian rue, the most commonly used natural MAOI's. They are used to make DMT orally active, and also increase the length and severity of a psilocybin trip.

Harmala Alkaloids are psychoactive, though not in the same way as psychedelics. There's also a good chance they are responsible for some of the nausea.

It can certainly be expected that the differing levels in Harmala Alkaloids can produce a different experience across two different mushrooms.

Whether we have any accurate way to measure or even produce fruits that contain particular amounts of these chemicals on a consistent basis, especially between different types of cubes, is a very different story.

Knowing this, we can also extrapolate that to mean that mushrooms could be capable of rendering DMT orally active. The downside is you wouldn't know whether your experience is due to the DMT or the psilocin.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #27189268 - 02/06/21 08:02 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

If the DMT and psilocin are indistinguishable upon assay, does it matter which is present? Is 4-HO-DMT a better trip than 5-HO-DMT? I don’t know and I’m not sure anyone has a real answer.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte] * 1
    #27189271 - 02/06/21 08:04 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Expectations are the biggest thing that affects a strain's trip character.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27189337 - 02/06/21 08:58 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Expectations are the biggest thing that affects a strain's trip character.




Nothing like not seeing a forest cause of all the trees in it.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27190183 - 02/06/21 06:16 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
If the DMT and psilocin are indistinguishable upon assay, does it matter which is present? Is 4-HO-DMT a better trip than 5-HO-DMT? I don’t know and I’m not sure anyone has a real answer.




Are you talking DMT(NN-DMT) or Bufotenin(5-ho-dmt)? Bufotenin is in some(or possibly trace amounts in many/all) active mushrooms but I'm not aware of DMT in any.

Or are you referencing the Harmala Alkaloids? Mushrooms have that component of ayahuasca, not the DMT component. Harmaline and harmane.



Psilohuasca (mushrooms + dmt + maoi)is a thing, but I haven't tried it. I'd bet there are people on this forum who have, and I'd also bet it feels different than either DMT or Psilocin on their own. I don't think it would be the same in assay.

I would love to try DMT, and it's reportedly quite different from Psilocin, so I don't think a combination would be indistinguishable from the constituents separately.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #27190259 - 02/06/21 06:58 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Reportedly isn't a quantifiable metric. I'm not saying anything definitive other than I simply don't trust peoples anecdotes as much as I do my own observations, and even those are clouded by perspective.

Mushrooms likely have compounds we haven't found yet but there is no point speculating on their impact until we do, and run tests. Lots of study to be done before any of this is anything more than conjecture and mental masturbation.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27190346 - 02/06/21 07:54 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Reportedly isn't a quantifiable metric. I'm not saying anything definitive other than I simply don't trust peoples anecdotes as much as I do my own observations, and even those are clouded by perspective.

Mushrooms likely have compounds we haven't found yet but there is no point speculating on their impact until we do, and run tests. Lots of study to be done before any of this is anything more than conjecture and mental masturbation.




Are you saying that in your experience at high doses DMT and psilocybin/Psilocin are indistiguishable?

I can certainly understand how that's possible considering the mechanics involved and wouldn't argue against something that you were there for and I wasn't, but it definitely isn't what most anecdotes or scientific study seem to indicate.

The affects of psychedelics are mostly experiential and subjective, so "quantifiable metrics" aren't something we can really easily come by using a typical model for pharmacological studies, unless you are talking about symptomatic relief of some sort.

Saying DMT and psilocybin have exactly the same effects flies in the face of most literature and experience reports, so at what point can "reportedly" be something acceptable in that regard?


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Edited by karri0n (02/06/21 07:56 PM)


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #27190517 - 02/06/21 09:29 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

karri0n said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Reportedly isn't a quantifiable metric. I'm not saying anything definitive other than I simply don't trust peoples anecdotes as much as I do my own observations, and even those are clouded by perspective.

Mushrooms likely have compounds we haven't found yet but there is no point speculating on their impact until we do, and run tests. Lots of study to be done before any of this is anything more than conjecture and mental masturbation.




Are you saying that in your experience at high doses DMT and psilocybin/Psilocin are indistiguishable?

I can certainly understand how that's possible considering the mechanics involved and wouldn't argue against something that you were there for and I wasn't, but it definitely isn't what most anecdotes or scientific study seem to indicate.

The affects of psychedelics are mostly experiential and subjective, so "quantifiable metrics" aren't something we can really easily come by using a typical model for pharmacological studies, unless you are talking about symptomatic relief of some sort.

Saying DMT and psilocybin have exactly the same effects flies in the face of most literature and experience reports, so at what point can "reportedly" be something acceptable in that regard?




What literature? Experience Reports? I'm sorry but I take most of what's available on the subject with a rather large grain of salt. But that strawman argument aside, I don't believe I said they have "exactly the same effects." I said (or at least tried to say) that the effects in concert will likely be indistiguishable. But I'm also not looking to convince some level 9 shamans on the internet that the scientific method can be used to unpack the trip reports of 1000's of Wooks with too much time on their hands.

I'm betting that if I gave someone 50 mg of 4ACO, 2 grams of dry Pan cyans, and 50 ug of LSD all mixed up in a cocktail, 99% of people in a blind taste test couldn't tell me exactly what they took other than it was a psyche.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27190590 - 02/06/21 10:05 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

I recently took 21 grams worth of AA+ in tea form. I've never done DMT. I don't know what the difference is because that's my normal dose with Cubensis but this was my first experience with Albinos and I am extremely experienced. I have taken 25 hits LSD at once and I smoked PCP for a good portion of my life and I never had this type of experience ever. I would say it was around 5 times plus more intense than usual. I passed into the afterlife and returned and now I know what they mean by the reset button in your brain. I imagine it would have taken a few oz of my normal shrooms to get where it took me. I don't know if it's a difference in alkaloids or compounds etc... I do know I didn't know that was possible. I actually was worried I Od'ed even though I know it would take at least a couple oz of pure psilocin to do so. Whatever the difference is Albinos are not the same as the normal ones.


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Professor X]
    #27191029 - 02/07/21 06:10 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Ok so you happened to grow a strong batch :shrug:
Quote:


but this was my first experience with Albinos and I am extremely experienced




:stonedjerk:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27191148 - 02/07/21 07:49 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:But I'm also not looking to convince some level 9 shamans on the internet that the scientific method can be used to unpack the trip reports of 1000's of Wooks with too much time on their hands.




:ducklol:


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27191215 - 02/07/21 08:50 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:



I'm betting that if I gave someone 50 mg of 4ACO, 2 grams of dry Pan cyans, and 50 ug of LSD all mixed up in a cocktail, 99% of people in a blind taste test couldn't tell me exactly what they took other than it was a psyche.





Lol yeah I can just see a bunch of people drinking that tea swishing it around going “mmm..yes. I’m getting distinct notes of pan tropicalis with just a hint of 4ACO undertones to this fractal I’m flying through”


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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27192492 - 02/07/21 07:29 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Quote:

karri0n said:
Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Reportedly isn't a quantifiable metric. I'm not saying anything definitive other than I simply don't trust peoples anecdotes as much as I do my own observations, and even those are clouded by perspective.

Mushrooms likely have compounds we haven't found yet but there is no point speculating on their impact until we do, and run tests. Lots of study to be done before any of this is anything more than conjecture and mental masturbation.




Are you saying that in your experience at high doses DMT and psilocybin/Psilocin are indistiguishable?

I can certainly understand how that's possible considering the mechanics involved and wouldn't argue against something that you were there for and I wasn't, but it definitely isn't what most anecdotes or scientific study seem to indicate.

The affects of psychedelics are mostly experiential and subjective, so "quantifiable metrics" aren't something we can really easily come by using a typical model for pharmacological studies, unless you are talking about symptomatic relief of some sort.

Saying DMT and psilocybin have exactly the same effects flies in the face of most literature and experience reports, so at what point can "reportedly" be something acceptable in that regard?




What literature? Experience Reports? I'm sorry but I take most of what's available on the subject with a rather large grain of salt. But that strawman argument aside, I don't believe I said they have "exactly the same effects." I said (or at least tried to say) that the effects in concert will likely be indistiguishable. But I'm also not looking to convince some level 9 shamans on the internet that the scientific method can be used to unpack the trip reports of 1000's of Wooks with too much time on their hands.

I'm betting that if I gave someone 50 mg of 4ACO, 2 grams of dry Pan cyans, and 50 ug of LSD all mixed up in a cocktail, 99% of people in a blind taste test couldn't tell me exactly what they took other than it was a psyche.




I don't disagree with any of that, Aside from dismissing it as a straw man, considering I was literally asking if that's what you're saying. I was also asking if you've specifically tried it. Not trying to argue but I can understand why it seems that way. I'm well aware drug stories are full of shit, which is why I'm asking experts.

There are in fact scientific studies detailing the affects of different psychs, so I don't know what you're playing at there.

What you said as I understood it does fly in the face of a lot of the common understanding. On the other hand you're considered a bit of an expert on the matter, so you're qualified to make claims like that.

As to your extreme example, agree 110% , though That cocktail is  not the same as a moderate dose of dmt + Psilocin, and identifying what compound you were dosed with with specificity isn't the same as saying dmt + psilo feels different than one or the other alone. At full mind blowing doses, sure.

Mild to.moderate? Still skeptical.


Fuckin A man, I post a scientific study detailing an answer to the thread question and I get bod AND pasty coming after me for being a goddamn hippie.


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Panaeolus Bisporus


Edited by karri0n (02/07/21 07:31 PM)


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InvisiblePastywhyteMDiscord
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: karri0n]
    #27192579 - 02/07/21 08:39 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound so harsh. I guess this shit just frustrates me cause I’ve got the same questions as everyone else and my own hunches. But it’s honestly a meaningless discussion without better data and I don’t consider myself enough of an authority to feel comfortable postulating my thoughts on the subject, regardless of who wants to read them.


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OfflineProfessor X
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #27192600 - 02/07/21 08:56 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Ok so you happened to grow a strong batch :shrug:
Quote:


but this was my first experience with Albinos and I am extremely experienced




:stonedjerk:


idk I'm 40 and been doing psychedelics for 26 years. Maybe just a tad. Like I said my normal dose is 21 grams and it wasn't one batch it was a bunch of tubs. I have 50 copies of the culture atm.


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Offlinekarri0n
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Re: what other compounds, chemicals give a strain's trip's character? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #27192618 - 02/07/21 09:12 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Pastywhyte said:
Sorry, didn’t mean to sound so harsh. I guess this shit just frustrates me cause I’ve got the same questions as everyone else and my own hunches. But it’s honestly a meaningless discussion without better data and I don’t consider myself enough of an authority to feel comfortable postulating my thoughts on the subject, regardless of who wants to read them.




I get it.

Pharmacokinetics are a super interesting topic to me, so discussing and hearing others thoughts on the matter, especially those with either credentials or experience, is also interesting.

Besides, mental masturbation and regular masturbation are both generally cool in my book. Isn't that the point of the internet anyway?


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Panaeolus Bisporus


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