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OfflineGalaxytripper
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BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster
    #26795639 - 06/30/20 09:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hi All,
After a 2-year growing break, I've come back to doing BRF cakes. I PC'd them but in the morning all the cakes were sodden through and through. All fup duck.

I've done BRF cakes repeatedly and successfully before, but don't want to repeat this debacle. I have a big-ass PC that holds more than a dozen half-pint jars. Each jar had dry verm all the way to the top, with 4 holes (uncovered) but each jar separately covered with tin foil. I raised the jars off the bottom of the PC with a small riser grid or whatever you call it and then placed a round trivet with holes in it onto them, and then placed another trivet on top of that, crowning that with the other half dozen cakes.

I put water in up to about an inch above the bottom of the bottom set of jars, and then set the PC on high heat for 90 mins. I wanted to avoid running out of water at all costs, however there was still plenty of water left in the bottom of the PC in the morning.

I don't recall having taped the holes on previous occasions (although I might have and just don't remember. I think I've done both in the past). I thought the tin foil would prevent water from getting in.

Plus I thought I had discovered the secret of alchemy in turning base metals to gold, since the tin foil on the bottom jars now turned a beautiful golden color with the heat.

a) Should I have taped the holes as a matter of course?
b) Should I have used RTV on the holes?
c) Did I put too much water in? How much should I put in?
d) All of the above?

What's the correct way to do this so I don't repeat this. It's bloody annoying to do all this work for nada.

Any tips?

Thanks in advance,

GalaxyTripper


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Invisiblepablokabute
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Galaxytripper]
    #26795739 - 06/30/20 10:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Pics would help.

Most probably steam and therefor water got in your jars.

From what I remember brf recipe is very easy to remember and thats 1:1:2, verm:water:brf


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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: pablokabute]
    #26795804 - 06/30/20 10:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Follow instructions on water. 2 quarts is more than enough for 4 hours run time if used correctly. You said the jars were raised AND you put water 1 inch over the jars. sounds like a lot.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Smartattack]
    #26795876 - 06/30/20 11:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, the water was covering the bottom inch of the jars on the bottom. I'm just wondering if I should always PC with the holes covered, and covered with what?


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: pablokabute]
    #26795883 - 06/30/20 11:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I know the formula but that's for the substrate IN the jars. I need some guidelines for the amount of water outside the jars. Is water going to get in irrespective, unless I have the jar holes covered? And covered with what? Should I go with RTV while we're PCing and then peel back after that for inoculation?


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Galaxytripper]
    #26796068 - 07/01/20 01:21 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Honestly, i would just use a regular pot for steaming those PF jars. U dont need a PC for processing PF jars, i think it just overcomplicates it :shrug: Leave PCing for grains.

If u do follow my advice, buy a large tamale steamer. They work perfectly for PF tek as there is a built in rack to rest your jars on that keeps it away from the water :thumbup:

A) if your jars have tin foil on top, u dont need to tape.
B) dont RTV the holes!
C) use a tamale steamer instead
D) see above


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OfflineCanebrake
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #26796156 - 07/01/20 03:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'm a complete noob so take what i do with a grain of salt. I always put a layer of micropore tape over the holes. Then tinfoil.

I also think I've read you dont want to put that much water in the cooker. I put just enough where it barely touches the bottom of the jars. if youre concerned about running out of water. Use a few jar lids to raise the bottom plate a little.


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Offlinepesa
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Galaxytripper]
    #26796575 - 07/01/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

coming from disaster experience cover the holes with micro pore tape twice better once good then put foil on top cover so no water drop. also use 2:1:1 2 cups of verm 1 cup of brown rice flour and one cup of water.


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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: pesa] * 1
    #26796584 - 07/01/20 09:20 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Never allow the water to touch the jars, especially if you’re using widemouth half pints. The water will expand and run up the side flooding the jars. I would recommend the same precaution for no pour agar.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26796774 - 07/01/20 10:53 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Pasty. But here's the thing: this affected not just the jars on the bottom that had some contact with the water, but also the jars at the top, way elevated.

Therefore I conclude that it's the steam pressure that's doing this, independently of the water expanding towards the bottom.

Would you agree with one opinion here that says PCing is only for grains?  This is the first time I've heard PCing being poo-poo'ed in the case of BRF cakes. But if that would solve the problem...

Thing is, I've understood forever that to kill the bacteria you need that 15 p.s.i.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Smartattack]
    #26796777 - 07/01/20 10:55 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for your reply. The top jars were nowhere near the water. The steam got to them anyway. That's the issue.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26796783 - 07/01/20 11:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the reply. I've always understood you need that 15 p.s.i for BRF cakes. So I don't really know what a tamale steamer is, but can it provide that pressure, which I understand is entirely necessary to the process.

Not sure why the idea now is that this is only for grains?  And...if we have 15 p.s.i, I don't see how that pressure is not going to get under the tin foil and into the water as it did in this case, especially if I don't cover the holes. It always seemed strange to me, the idea that tin foil alone with uncovered holes would do it.

How do you combat that logic?


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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Galaxytripper] * 1
    #26797150 - 07/01/20 02:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Galaxytripper said:
Thanks for the reply. I've always understood you need that 15 p.s.i for BRF cakes. So I don't really know what a tamale steamer is, but can it provide that pressure, which I understand is entirely necessary to the process.

Not sure why the idea now is that this is only for grains?  And...if we have 15 p.s.i, I don't see how that pressure is not going to get under the tin foil and into the water as it did in this case, especially if I don't cover the holes. It always seemed strange to me, the idea that tin foil alone with uncovered holes would do it.

How do you combat that logic?






Steaming perfectly works with brf cakes. It has something to do with the surface area of the brf mixture. Lots of people get away by just steaming.. most people who ran brf projects do so for they dont have any pressure cooker available.

Additional micropore tape for the holes wont hurt your projects.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: pablokabute]
    #26797481 - 07/01/20 05:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks, Pablo. I'll try that.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: pablokabute]
    #26798342 - 07/02/20 02:25 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yup, exactly, u dont need to use your PC for PF jars. I would recommend using a regular steam pot (as i mentioned above). And no they dont need 15psi to sterilize. They only need 1psi (boiling water) to sterilize inside a steaming pot (like a tamale steamer).

Even grains dont need 15psi, but it shortens the sterilization time if u PC your whole grains at that pressure.


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OfflineTrichodingus
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26798478 - 07/02/20 04:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Yup, exactly, u dont need to use your PC for PF jars. I would recommend using a regular steam pot (as i mentioned above). And no they dont need 15psi to sterilize. They only need 1psi (boiling water) to sterilize inside a steaming pot (like a tamale steamer).

Even grains dont need 15psi, but it shortens the sterilization time if u PC your whole grains at that pressure.




I'm pretty sure 212f isn't hot enough to sterilize.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Trichodingus]
    #26798571 - 07/02/20 05:28 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oh but it is, for BRF at least. Its called Steam-sterilization. Works for making syringes too.


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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26798662 - 07/02/20 06:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Sterilization is a function of temp over time for a given population. You can sterilize at pasteurization temps if you run it long enough. Which is why I don’t recommend people pasteurizing manure at 170 for 90 min. 150 for 60 min is much better. But that’s another story.

I would use the PC for the cakes any day. Higher temps mean more kill. More is always more IMO.


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Offlinelefty24
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26798784 - 07/02/20 08:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I have done jars with JUST tin foil for lids, so no, you do not have to tape the holes if you have tinfoil over the top.

Are you sure it was sodden wet and not just field capacity?

Why did you open up the jars to check and see?


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OfflineTrichodingus
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26799147 - 07/02/20 11:57 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Oh but it is, for BRF at least. Its called Steam-sterilization. Works for making syringes too.




That's good to know! I always assumed that BRF steaming was effective because of pasteurization rather than actually killing everything off.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: lefty24]
    #26800150 - 07/02/20 07:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I could clearly see that the cakes were super-dark, which they're usually not, plus in many cases, I could see that the formerly at least, dry verm layer had separated and the substrate was gooey. Definitely wet, amigo.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #26800156 - 07/02/20 07:28 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, it's not the pressure per se. The pressure is just a means to achieve a higher temperature over a shorter time.


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OfflineGalaxytripper
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Re: BRF Sodden Cakes PC Disaster [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26805350 - 07/05/20 02:00 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I would use the PC for the cakes any day. Higher temps mean more kill. More is always more IMO.




So if you were using a PC for BRF cakes, you would always use micropore tape, in addition to tin foil, correct?

We're also told not to tighten the jar lids when we pc. Although I have had an instance where the pressure from the PC has blown the lids right off. I can't remember now whether that was a consequence of not tightening the lids. That sounds like a reasonable explanation for what happened.

Regarding adding tin foil, would you just use enough tin foil to wrap around the top and body of the jars or use enough to completely envelope the jars, as a matter of interest?


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