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OfflineMyHeartsInBarca
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Registered: 05/28/20
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Mycology without Chemistry?
    #26794547 - 06/30/20 01:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I dove into this hobby head first, and then worked my way back through what it would take to have a real, formally-educated career in the field. I have a bachelors degree (BA) and aced plenty of science classes, but have never taken biology or chemistry. I got a basic biology book and tried to take an MIT Open Courseware class and 2 chapters in, I'm crashing & burning. The biochem is killing me, just as it did in high school so many years ago. So here's the thing: I'm ultra motivated to learn everything I can, but is there a realistic path forward without basic biology and chemistry? It's funny, I feel like I could draw/write a comic book depicting hyphae growth and fungus reproduction, but those atomic diagrams and molecular interactions just give me hives. Am I doomed to be a Citizen Mycologist? What can I realistically do without that hard math & science?


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OfflineKmacmo
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: MyHeartsInBarca]
    #26794614 - 06/30/20 01:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You can certainly grow some nice mushrooms, it's very easy.
Well Ofcourse it depends on the species and what your end goal is?
It looks like you have a great start already if you wanted to become the next Albert Einstein of mycology lol, anything is possible.

I have very basic knowledge of biology and chemistry, never really used either for growing some cubensis species that is.
Alot of species are pretty straight forward some are difficult, like plants I guess :P


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OfflineMyHeartsInBarca
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: Kmacmo]
    #26794629 - 06/30/20 01:57 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the encouragement, Kmacmo. I guess I'll just learn what I can without it, and maybe at some point it'll make more sense, by osmosis. (heh, see what I did there?) I feel like I've learned TONS already, which feels great.


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Invisiblepanne cyanne
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Registered: 04/15/20
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: MyHeartsInBarca]
    #26794657 - 06/30/20 02:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

there are some excellent growers that probably couldnt pass a GED with a dump truck of gold and william singer as a copilot.

i wouldnt worry about pesky educational details.


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OfflineMyHeartsInBarca
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: panne cyanne]
    #26795028 - 06/30/20 05:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:laugh: Hahaha!! Thank you! I'll reframe my confidence level.


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Invisiblemind.at.large
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: MyHeartsInBarca]
    #26800267 - 07/02/20 08:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Like already stated, you need very little scientific knowledge to be a decent grower, but if you’re looking for in depth knowledge of the mycological world, basic biology and chemistry will be crucial to understand.

But it all depends on how deep you want to go. If it’s just a hobby, don’t worry about those courses, but if you want to be an expert in mycology, you need to know the basic fundamentals of both biology and chemistry.

I’m definitely no mycology expert, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but I would probably have a similar answer to anyone who wants to dive deep into any of the natural sciences.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: mind.at.large]
    #26800543 - 07/03/20 12:06 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Good responses and much agreed.

First of all I wouldn't get hung up on something like what title you can call yourself, it's indeed a matter of what are the exact things you set out to do. While it is true that it is possible there are occasionally some goals here and there you perhaps wanna complete that would require some chemistry, but you can just get some help in the community whether IRL or online... and work together so that you can substitute (chem pun) some skills.

Biology you can do a lot of without biochem/chem, and often you don't have to understand the technicalities of the chemistry involved if you get the gist of it.

And we are talking about it being a hobby, lol.. honestly there are many people who are a bit allergic to the subject of chemistry and the abstractions involved.

Idk how good Paul Stamets is at chemistry right now, but he's probably one of the most famous mycologists around and something of a self-proclaimed selfmade one.

I wouldn't worry about it. Just follow your passions and do some networking to get support early on and don't lose your confidence. :smile: There is tons of networking online, but for me joining an IRL mushroom study group also really tied things together for me. The shared interest is just really obvious and people tend to like to teach others about their deepest interests. *Very little (bio)chemistry going on there like there is with more particular isolated research projects... and the biology is a lot more about ecology. well at least thats my experience with it.


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Invisiblepanne cyanne
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: Solipsis]
    #26801818 - 07/03/20 04:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

or
in theory you could read what your interested in,
and use a merck manual as a rosetta stone,
eventually it would all click.


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InvisibleBabuFrik
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Registered: 01/28/20 Happy 4th Shroomiversary!
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: MyHeartsInBarca]
    #26802385 - 07/03/20 09:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Mycology is a unique beast because of how underdeveloped the formal scientific part of it is compared to other fields and also how well rounded the citizen scientist part of it is. Usually that situation is reversed. There are so many outstanding "amateurs" who don't know about the biochemistry but who are also worth their weight in gold when it comes to locating different fungi, identifications, working with reagents, propagation, plant diseases, teaching, tincture making and the like. The formal science part of what we do is actually more unusual than you might think. If you are looking for proof then randomly select 10 large universities and count how many of them have mycology programs compared to biology and chemistry programs.

Gary Lincoff is the most famous example for me. He was a writer before he became interested in fungi. He wrote the Audubon Field Guide to North American Mushrooms and taught for decades at the New York Botanical Garden. He was one of the funniest, most intelligent mycologists I have ever had the privilege of working with and he had no formal biochemistry training. Anyone who would call him an "amateur" is wearing crazy pants. Another good example is my friend Susan H. who is probably the sharpest naturalist I have ever met. She can tell you about every single mushroom you come across in the forest and is a true Adept at using them to dye wool. She is even on the North American Mycological Association committee for dying and paper making. Her formal training? Retired postal worker. She could run circles around any academic.

Degrees and classical knowledge do not mean much when it comes to your place in mycology so don't get hung up on a title. The mushrooms and the people you meet are what will transport you where you want to go. Take it one day at a time and learn things as you go. All of the knowledge is not going to crawl into your brain overnight. Be kind to yourself and give yourself permission to take a break or it might end up giving you a sour taste in your mouth. This is supposed to be an interesting and fun journey.


Biochemistry is a monster when you are coming from outside the discipline. Don't let it put you off. I am getting my PhD now and still vividly recall how painful it was to have to learn it. There is a lot to digest so please don't beat yourself up. It was hard for me and I am at a big university with access to an academic plan and professionals. And even though I am close to graduating I am still not a very good mycologist compared to all the people I meet at forays and conferences.


I do not think that you need to do much more than your standard run of Google searches and YouTube Academy on the different principles you come across. But I can recommend some textbooks if you have your heart set on this. There are not many good biochemistry texts out there that are written for people outside the discipline, but a good one is "Biochemistry" by Berg, Tymoczko, & Stryer. You can pick up an older, used 7th edition for $40 US. It would be dumb to purchase the newest edition because not much has changed from the 7th to the 9th other than the price going up by $200 US to feed the textbook industry. That pairs well with nearly any mycology textbook. I like Jim Deacon's "Fungal Biology (4th edition)" and Watkinson, Boddy, & Money's "The Fungi." Those are a little pricey, but you should be able to get digital copies through your library and remove the DRM with a script that works with an ebook app like Calibre.

Even if you go out and spend a fortune on new books the material is still going to be difficult to learn. Nothing changes from the stuff you don't know in the books you have now to the stuff you don't know in these other books. Biochemistry is not really one of those "one thing leads to another" disciplines. All the little tidbits are learned side by side and they lean on each other like a bunch of drunks trying not to fall over. Most of fungal biology is happening at the structural level so maybe you want to think about focusing on protein structure and function, cell membranes and membrane proteins, transport methods, cell wall polymers, action potentials and ion movement. Fungi digest food resources extracellularly and so there is a lot of movement of material through protein channels and pumps. The hyphal growth tips are where all of the interesting chemistry happens. Do not get bogged down in the pedantry.


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If you are interested in trading mycology club tshirts, or want to help me buy one from your club, send a DM my way :banana:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: BabuFrik]
    #26803105 - 07/04/20 08:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Even the people teaching mycology at universities are not exactly great at science and math.
It's a neglected and underdeveloped field.


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Offlinemeowjinx
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: MyHeartsInBarca]
    #26810699 - 07/08/20 09:47 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

If you want to have a solid academic understanding of any biological kingdom you would need to have at least a year's worth of chemistry education, yes

Your run of the mill state uni or college won't have a strong Mycology program, especially if you're an undergrad. If you're lucky they will have a single course for upperclassmen. As an undergrad you mainly learn about fungi through your microbiology course, where you're given a basic rundown of their biology including cell structure, modes of reproduction, and a basic overview of their metabolism. You might also learn a bit about them in a Botany course because fungi very often live symbiotically with plants

But to REALLY understand the Biology of fungi it is in your best interest to develop a good grasp of Bio and Chem anyway. The things you learn in Biology apply to all living things and on a microscopic level all Biology is a series of chemical reactions

You can't expect to understand biochemistry from one online course, even if it's from MIT. Even most Bio majors with their BA degrees don't have a good grasp of Biochem. To understand Biochem you need to understand Organic Chem and to understand Organic Chem you need to undestand General Chem. There is no way around it, having a good grasp of scientific theory  in any field takes years of study

That's IF you want to have a grasp of theory. You don't need that to be a master grower. If you plucked a random tenured Bio professor out of a classroom and asked them to grow in bulk I highly doubt they'd even know where to start

That is to say, there's nothing wrong whatsoever with being "just" a citizen mycologist. If you look at the history of most scientific fields you will find that major contributions were made by "hobbyists". Biology was not always a subject taught in schools, it started from the work of "laymen" with intellectual curiosity

And I see the experienced growers on here with the same reverence that I saw my professors back when I was in school. They may not know every step of the Krebs cycle but that doesn't mean they don't have as much functional knowledge of fungi as many people with doctoral degrees

So yes and no. Mycology is a subfield of Biology. Most experts in any Biology field started where you're starting: with basic-level bio and chemistry. Most botanists probs have a Bachelor's in Bio, not Botany. I think you get my point. There is a path forward, but not a shortcut


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Offlinedeal-euphoria
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Re: Mycology without Chemistry? [Re: meowjinx]
    #26819105 - 07/12/20 10:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hard to tell...:thumbup:


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