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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
    #26791506 - 06/29/20 09:11 AM (10 days, 21 hours ago)

They are Panaeolus cinctulus or olivaceus,  microscopy is needed to determine which one. However,  if you see any purplish or brownish color tones in the spore print it is Panaeolus foenisecii.


--------------------
Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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OfflinePsilosadhu
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
    #26792273 - 06/29/20 04:30 PM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

I'd say olivaceus as well. Try them out and let us know how it goes! Olivaceus seems to be mostly inactive, but don't know about NZ.


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InvisibleBagels
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
    #26793984 - 06/30/20 10:10 AM (9 days, 20 hours ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
They are Panaeolus cinctulus or olivaceus,  microscopy is needed to determine which one. However,  if you see any purplish or brownish color tones in the spore print it is Panaeolus foenisecii.




Thanks Doc9151 I appreciated your help. There's no doubt in my mind about the spore colour being anything other than black. Is examination of the spores by microscopy enough in this case? Do you photograph, measure them and compare them and then go bam that's it that's a Panaeolus (whichever species)?


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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
    #26794009 - 06/30/20 10:31 AM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

there's more to it than that,  you not only measure the spores, but determine if they have a germ pore. size and shape of said pore, spore wall thickness,  ornamentation if any on the spore and that is just some of the things that you have to do and look for concerning spores.  The same has to be done with cystidia, Basidia  and a whole lot more. It takes a few hours minimum and sometimes it takes days or weeks to complete everything. Measuring everything in each view is time consuming and you do averages not just one or two but I do a minimum of 50 spores and each type of cystidia and Basidia other structures.


--------------------
Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


Edited by Doc9151 (06/30/20 10:32 AM)


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InvisibleBagels
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
    #26794052 - 06/30/20 11:06 AM (9 days, 19 hours ago)

Quote:

Doc9151 said:
there's more to it than that,  you not only measure the spores, but determine if they have a germ pore. size and shape of said pore, spore wall thickness,  ornamentation if any on the spore and that is just some of the things that you have to do and look for concerning spores.  The same has to be done with cystidia, Basidia  and a whole lot more. It takes a few hours minimum and sometimes it takes days or weeks to complete everything. Measuring everything in each view is time consuming and you do averages not just one or two but I do a minimum of 50 spores and each type of cystidia and Basidia other structures.




That's facinating. Did it take you long to learn the basics?


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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Bagels]
    #26794128 - 06/30/20 11:52 AM (9 days, 18 hours ago)

It's taken me a few years to learn what I'm looking for/at. Learning the terminology is still an on going process because words have been substituted and added over the past few hundred years and most of the original descriptions are of European species written in foreign languages so trying to find translations can be daunting and its those older descriptions that contain words that are not used today so trying to define them is another task.

What I have realized in the past few years since I have delved more into research is that things are not what they thought and change is constant. Professional mycologist are still figuring out relationships and the true secrets of fungi haven't begun to be unlocked because very few people are looking at the chemistry of the different fungi that we know of and we haven't even scratched the surface on the undescribed species, not unknown but undescribed. There are so many unknown species out there that the pharmaceutical value alone is invaluable.


--------------------
Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


Edited by Doc9151 (06/30/20 11:54 AM)


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InvisibleRogerTheRetard
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
    #26794624 - 06/30/20 03:55 PM (9 days, 14 hours ago)

I was wondering if Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus have any macroscopic differentials so one would be able to differentiate cinctulus and olivaceus with the naked eye.

Or would you need to look under the microscope to tell them apart?


--------------------

:mushroom2:angulospora:heart:subaeruginosa:heart:subsecotioides:heart:tasmaniana:mushroom2::bigweed:


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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
    #26794885 - 06/30/20 05:53 PM (9 days, 12 hours ago)

They are hard to differentiate even with microscopy and easily confused with macro characteristics alone.


--------------------
Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


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InvisibleRogerTheRetard
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
    #26794993 - 06/30/20 06:45 PM (9 days, 11 hours ago)

Fuck ok. So they could even be synonyms.

Otherwise what are the microscopic differences between Pan. cinctululs and olivaceus??? Do they overlap. :lol:


--------------------

:mushroom2:angulospora:heart:subaeruginosa:heart:subsecotioides:heart:tasmaniana:mushroom2::bigweed:


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InvisibleDoc9151M
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
    #26795001 - 06/30/20 06:51 PM (9 days, 11 hours ago)

no not synonymous but similar, DNA separates them and they don't mate.


--------------------
Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593


Edited by Doc9151 (06/30/20 06:52 PM)


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InvisibleRogerTheRetard
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: Doc9151]
    #26795119 - 06/30/20 07:55 PM (9 days, 10 hours ago)

Ok cool bro good to know.


--------------------

:mushroom2:angulospora:heart:subaeruginosa:heart:subsecotioides:heart:tasmaniana:mushroom2::bigweed:


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OfflinePsilosadhu
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Re: Looking for confirmation of Panaeolus cinctulus ID please.. NZ [Re: RogerTheRetard]
    #26796526 - 07/01/20 10:40 AM (8 days, 19 hours ago)

Hmm... Olivaceus got rough spores..


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