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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26793826 - 06/30/20 06:36 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.




She made public tweets about make believe
if she did not decide that she was qualified to speak up on these issues
no one would respond to her on them

it is not like people are chasing her down for views she expressed decades ago
it is her putting these narratives into the public sphere, interrupting her tweets praising young fans for their drawings of her characters
with tweets those young fans can read about how she believes trans women are men

that you "don't really want to know" what is going on
does not change the fact that someone who you imply should stick to writing fantasy books
is actively attacking minorities in the public sphere



I am curious, how did she attack minorities?




It started with a reply to this news story which states:
Quote:

An estimated 1.8 billion girls, women, and gender non-binary persons menstruate, and this has not stopped because of the pandemic. They still require menstrual materials, safe access to toilets, soap, water, and private spaces in the face of lockdown living conditions that have eliminated privacy for many populations.




where she tweeted that rather than mentioning more than just women menstruate, the article should specify
Quote:

‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?




this compounded in to people pointing out that non-binary individuals assigned female at birth menstruate(as stated in the article she objected to), as do trans men
to which she went on a big twitter diatribe all about how recognizing trans men as men and trans women as women destroys the definition of what it means to be a woman, destroys any concept of homosexuality,
and puts women at risk of having all the rights feminists pushed for taken away from them
by men who are pretending to be women to sexually assault women

it is worth noting that the tweets from earlier in the same day
were perfectly normal, non-chalant and the types of things that most people would be happy to see on their twitter feed



then she went on a rant about trans people

for me, it is easy to imagine some little trans kid that tweeted her a picture one day that she responded to about how much she liked it
then turned around the next day to find the author who complimented them had made political posts letting that kid know she will never respect their identity as a person


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Registered: 08/09/19
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Loc: North EU
Last seen: 6 days, 19 hours
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793865 - 06/30/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Oh yeah that disagreement, I do remember now reading something about it. So essentially she is disrespecting these people's experiences. I do think trans men and trans women are different from biological men and women, but calling them men or women doesn't conflict with the "other type" of men and women nor take anything from homosexuality, but what do I know. "..men who are pretending to be women to sexually assault women." does she think all trans women sexually asault women or what does this mean? I mean I understand if the point is that someone who is trans dates another woman and doesn't disclose it at a proper time.
This whole gender and sexuality debate thing is so stupid. Let adults do and be whatever they want, but I do feel kids need to be protected from too much gender dysphoria in the media and encouraged them to take it slowly in these matters and supported in their individuality. So many teens think it is a solution to their sexual and gender-related problems to switch it. Also young kids should be protected from all gender propaganda and manipulation on both sides (trans and cis). Let kids be kids. They will identify their gender how they feel fit.

Didn't mean to derail the thread btw.


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26793885 - 06/30/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
"..men who are pretending to be women to sexually assault women." does she think all trans women sexually asault women or what does this mean?




She was "kind" enough to write a whole essay about it
but it boils down to, she was sexually abused by a man
and because she views all trans women as men
she views trans women as men who are trying to change laws to make it easier to assault women by invading their spaces

really respect her standing up and talking about her experiences of abuse
when she talks about how she is so nervous that someone unexpectedly coming up behind her throws her into a panic attack
am right there with being able to relate to what she is putting down

but personally do not try to extrapolate that my experiences of abuse mean that all men are abusers
so it is hurtful as a woman to have her accuse me of being both of the same identity and same intentions of her abuser

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
This whole gender and sexuality debate thing is so stupid. Let adults do and be whatever they want, but I do feel kids need to be protected from too much gender dysphoria in the media and encouraged them to take it slowly in these matters and supported in their individuality. So many teens think it is a solution to their sexual and gender-related problems to switch it. Also young kids should be protected from all gender propaganda and manipulation on both sides (trans and cis). Let kids be kids. They will identify their gender how they feel fit.

Didn't mean to derail the thread btw.




Agree that kids should be protected from manipulation on both sides
but also recognize that the levels of manipulation are even larger than just a popular child's author ranting about trans people
there are all sorts of things with gendered toys and the like that heavily code kids perceptions of what is "right" for them to play with
and feel if a little boy wants an Easy Bake Oven, he should not be socially ostracized by adults as having a girls toy
and instead be looked upon as potentially the next great chef to go around insulting shitty cooks
likewise, a girl with an interest in insects should not be told she should be focusing on keeping her hair nice so people think she is well-behaved
she could end up making a discovery that changes how we understand the world if her curiousity is fostered

and think that if kids were not exposed to such heavy coding
there would be a lot less push for transitioning to "match" the coding that is pushed on them


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 16,449
Loc: Dirdy SOUF Flag
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 1
    #26793907 - 06/30/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

A work of art belongs to the people. It’s a misunderstanding of ownership that causes people to worry about what artists do and think. If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it. Maybe you hope he gets evicted but you don’t think it has tainted your oil somehow. Every note on every Michael Jackson record is exactly the same no matter how many children he fucked. Celebrities are not your friends. Just because you know who they are doesn’t mean there’s a relationship. Unless you’re an idiot you’re not a fan of the person; you’re a fan of their art. The art isn’t changed so wtf does it matter? It reminds me of when Kobe Bryant or Anthony Bourdain died. Motherfuckers, you didn’t know these people.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Registered: 08/09/19
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Last seen: 6 days, 19 hours
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793908 - 06/30/20 07:30 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:

and feel if a little boy wants an Easy Bake Oven, he should not be socially ostracized by adults as having a girls toy
and instead be looked upon as potentially the next great chef to go around insulting shitty cooks



Like this?


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26793916 - 06/30/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:

and feel if a little boy wants an Easy Bake Oven, he should not be socially ostracized by adults as having a girls toy
and instead be looked upon as potentially the next great chef to go around insulting shitty cooks



Like this?





was thinking more like the next Gordon Ramsay
but maybe that is what Gordon was like as a kid :lol:


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
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Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26793919 - 06/30/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
...If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it. Maybe you hope he gets evicted but you don’t think it has tainted your oil somehow...




Would, however, go to someone else for future oil changes and stop giving him my money


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Posts: 16,449
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793930 - 06/30/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
...If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it. Maybe you hope he gets evicted but you don’t think it has tainted your oil somehow...




Would, however, go to someone else for future oil changes and stop giving him my money




Fair enough. People shouldn’t pay for art anyway.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 5
    #26793989 - 06/30/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

My problem with the way you've presented this issue is that it carries with it the underlying premise that a person is morally culpable for racist/intolerant beliefs.  While there are certainly morally reprehensible ideas that have led to undeniable tragedy and pain, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone with these ideas is morally culpable.

Much racism/intolerance comes from simple ignorance.  Undoubtedly, culture has created an entire mythology based on various differences between humans and how those differences should be interpreted to divine information about other people.  A child growing up in such a culture certainly isn't morally culpable for his/her own indoctrination in that mythology.  So, when does a person become morally responsible to abandon the mythology?  It can't be that everyone is evil until they learn better. 

Instead, each person must be judged not by where they are now on the racism/intolerance spectrum, but by how willing they are to adapt and adjust their beliefs when exposed to rational information.  I see it here all the time.  People come with ideas formed about this race or another.  After some discussions, people can change their minds.  Others won't.  That's the point where we can start making moral judgments.

Remember, the very word, "bigot" means a person who won't change his/her mind.

Lovecraft, as shitty of a writer as he was, came from a time when information was less available and culture was more intolerant and racist.  I don't know whether he was a bigot or not, because I don't know if he was ever truly exposed to solid information to counteract cultural myth.

Rowling, on the other hand, lives in a world where information is everywhere.  This makes it more likely that she has been exposed to solid information.  It also makes it more likely that she's been exposed to more cultural mythology.  Can I fault her for getting it wrong?  Maybe.  Still, I don't know whether she's truly a bigot or just not yet informed enough.

See, the reason this matters is that when you talk about "separating" the art from the artist, you're really asking whether you should label the art with the same label that the artist deserves.  Before you can get there, you have to figure out whether the artist really deserves the label in the first place.  Since that's often hard to determine, it's best to hold off on labeling the art beyond what the individual piece says to you.

Just my long-winded two cents.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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Offlinegopher
Coffee Bean Extraordinaire
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26794000 - 06/30/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I can separate people from their work, I follow the snake diet, I think the creator is genius when it comes to weight loss and working out, but out of his 400 and something videos he maybe has about a dozen not focused on health and are just his personal views, hes anti-vax, hes a trump supporter, he is against people being trans (he will still coach trans people and treat them like anybody else he coaches but he has personal views against them), those are the only three I can think of off the top of my head, but theres probably more, but I still watch his videos as he releases them, I even bought a over priced tee shirt from him to help support him cause his diet changed my life


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

:kratom:


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Offlinelowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #26794087 - 06/30/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
A work of art belongs to the people.




Only in certain foreign cultures.

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:

It’s a misunderstanding of ownership that causes people to worry about what artists do and think. If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it.




Don’t know, I already change my own oil.


I don’t see a problem with seperating an artist from the work.  Some people don’t have the emotional fortitude to pull it off, however.

For instance, I love Picasso’s artwork.  A great fucking artist.  But also a complete douchebag.  Doesn’t stop me from loving his paintings.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: lowbrow]
    #26794096 - 06/30/20 09:32 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

:whathesaid: with the twist of: as long as it's not supporting them directly. For example: if I wanted a Harry Potter movie I would go to a pawn shop instead of buying through a retailer.


--------------------
Those content with the least have the most.....(this account is automated, all posts related to illegal activities or advice thereof are strictly from numerous online sites and are for informational purposes only)- Circa 2011
Ban lotto


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Offlinegopher
Coffee Bean Extraordinaire
I'm a teapot

Registered: 11/22/17
Posts: 13,160
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Last seen: 7 hours, 59 minutes
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26794119 - 06/30/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

https://www.stallman.org/harry-potter.html

there was a bookstore that released a potter book like a week or something before they were supposed to, they got a injunction prohibiting the buyers from reading the book before the publication date

so stallman says

Quote:

I don't say you shouldn't read these books. That I leave to the author. I only urge you not to pay for them.




lol, rowling told people not to read her books


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

:kratom:


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InvisibleTheFakeSunRa
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Registered: 03/01/05
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: gopher]
    #26794136 - 06/30/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Isn’t she a billionaire?

:cutoff:


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Offlinelowbrow
Paddy Time!!!!
Male

Registered: 09/12/08
Posts: 9,711
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26794153 - 06/30/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Ya.  She can’t be cancelled.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Offlineqman
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26794159 - 06/30/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
It's easiest when you realize basically everyone is a terrible person.




Well that's the thing, very few can ever be 'good enough' by the standards of today. One has to have been abused into a state of constant victimization, that's very difficult to accomplish over the course of a lifetime.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
Bodhi
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Posts: 26,731
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Enlil]
    #26794160 - 06/30/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Think Enlil just saved the day.
Quote:

Enlil said:
My problem with the way you've presented this issue is that it carries with it the underlying premise that a person is morally culpable for racist/intolerant beliefs.  While there are certainly morally reprehensible ideas that have led to undeniable tragedy and pain, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone with these ideas is morally culpable.

Much racism/intolerance comes from simple ignorance.  Undoubtedly, culture has created an entire mythology based on various differences between humans and how those differences should be interpreted to divine information about other people.  A child growing up in such a culture certainly isn't morally culpable for his/her own indoctrination in that mythology.  So, when does a person become morally responsible to abandon the mythology?  It can't be that everyone is evil until they learn better. 

Instead, each person must be judged not by where they are now on the racism/intolerance spectrum, but by how willing they are to adapt and adjust their beliefs when exposed to rational information.  I see it here all the time.  People come with ideas formed about this race or another.  After some discussions, people can change their minds.  Others won't.  That's the point where we can start making moral judgments.

Remember, the very word, "bigot" means a person who won't change his/her mind.

Lovecraft, as shitty of a writer as he was, came from a time when information was less available and culture was more intolerant and racist.  I don't know whether he was a bigot or not, because I don't know if he was ever truly exposed to solid information to counteract cultural myth.

Rowling, on the other hand, lives in a world where information is everywhere.  This makes it more likely that she has been exposed to solid information.  It also makes it more likely that she's been exposed to more cultural mythology.  Can I fault her for getting it wrong?  Maybe.  Still, I don't know whether she's truly a bigot or just not yet informed enough.

See, the reason this matters is that when you talk about "separating" the art from the artist, you're really asking whether you should label the art with the same label that the artist deserves.  Before you can get there, you have to figure out whether the artist really deserves the label in the first place.  Since that's often hard to determine, it's best to hold off on labeling the art beyond what the individual piece says to you.

Just my long-winded two cents.



QFT:crankey:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps


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InvisiblezZZz
jesus
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Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 33,478
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26794167 - 06/30/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

luv u op!


--------------------
https://discord.gg/NHHd5y2Uyv


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Enlil]
    #26795492 - 06/30/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Rowling, on the other hand, lives in a world where information is everywhere.  This makes it more likely that she has been exposed to solid information.  It also makes it more likely that she's been exposed to more cultural mythology.  Can I fault her for getting it wrong?  Maybe.  Still, I don't know whether she's truly a bigot or just not yet informed enough.




Personally attribute Rowling's attacks to ignorance
but mostly because that gives me hope for her to learn and change

on the other hand, she has been pushing this narrative for a couple years now
and has been called out as wrong each time, with people explaining why
but she seems to go temporarily quiet then come back speaking about the issue even more loudly

as noted to CookieCrumbs, just this time around she really misjudged her timing on it
if she had not pulled this during Pride Month, no one of note would have spoken against her
Emma Watson tweeted this time, but she never tweeted any of the other times sort of thing

that said, actually find her anti-LGBTQ+ ranting during Pride Month to be unintentionally helpful to the LGBTQ+ movement

a notorious transphobe who has been publicly degrading trans women for years (he once insulted a trans man thinking it was a trans woman, got told that the trans man was wrestling women because of people like himself complaining, he deleted his tweets)
decided to come in to "rescue" Rowling by responding to as many trans people in her replies as he could telling them they are fake women
annnnnnnd he got himself banned from Twitter for hateful conduct, finally

also after Rowlings most recent rant
Reddit finally shut down one of their largest transphobic communities
that has been publicly pushing the narratives Rowling parroted

and honestly do not think such actions would have been taken if not for Rowling making such a highly visible mess in shouting down minorities


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InvisibleTantrika
Miss Ann Thrope
Female


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 03/26/12
Posts: 17,138
Loc: Lashed to the pyre
Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26795500 - 06/30/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
:whathesaid: with the twist of: as long as it's not supporting them directly. For example: if I wanted a Harry Potter movie I would go to a pawn shop instead of buying through a retailer.




Think this is a totally reasonable course of action
tho, to be fair, despite the fact that she makes so much money off the empire the movies opened for her
it is relevant to note that she is singularly responsible for the books
she is "just" formative in the production of the movies
and while taking the same course of action with the movies as you advise if wanting a copy
would also find a way to financially support the actors and actresses involved in the movie in other works

but this is kind of an issue in having to decide how and where we support artists
for instance, wanted to spend money on Kim Petras' cds but she appears to have only released Vinyl and MP3 versions
so, instead, intend to support her by picking up a hoodie and a hat from her official shop


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