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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26793170 - 06/29/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

As for minority representation in fiction (or even non fiction) ... well we don't have a lot to pick from.

What becomes popular wouldn't be as ideal as it sometimes can be for a non-minority simply because there's just less to pick from.


Then you can also spiral down into this and it's worth being aware of




If JK Rowling were a man would she be shit on by her platform so much?



I can't help but think "boys will be boys" would influence that.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #26793212 - 06/29/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
If JK Rowling were a man would she be shit on by her platform so much?



I can't help but think "boys will be boys" would influence that.




Prolly not
and she would not be faced with so many trolls who just want to hate on women rather than support the trans movement

but on the flipside, if J.K. Rowling were not a billionaire, would she have still be so culturally tone deaf to take the actions she did?

while other people were supporting protests uplifting minorities around the world
she stayed quiet
then she decided to speak up during Pride Month while people were in the streets for minoritiy rights
she did it from an ivory tower and punched down on trans men
then when called out on that, she defended punching down on trans men by voicing her fear and distrust of trans women

would certainly hope that any other celebrity who had been so aggressively out of touch would have people speak up

personally, again just glad to have been brought up by a more open and understanding author
but perhaps K.A. Applegate just never got big enough to be consumed by Rowling's style of minority hate
:shrug:









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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793238 - 06/29/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah I know what she did. Basically everyone knows what she did.

:ohwell:

I can't imagine that would be the case if she were a rich white dude instead of a rich white lady.


I'm not saying she didn't deserve the backlash she got, I think she did, but other people... maybe don't. Other people I'm pretty sure no one would notice if they weren't trying to be a voice for minorities. If they were instead the dominant class. Which we already have enough of.


My concern is pushing minorities back by... them not being good enough for us when that's basically all we got for the time being. Publishers notice this shit.


I'm sure more cultured peoples could come up with better examples. But I don't follow celebrities.

Shit I can't even name celebrities.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26793250 - 06/29/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Yeah I know what she did. Basically everyone knows what she did.

:ohwell:

I can't imagine that would be the case if she were a rich white dude instead of a rich white lady.




Off the top of my head, Mel Gibson has been hit pretty hard for anti-Semitic remarks

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I'm not saying she didn't deserve the backlash she got, I think she did, but other people... maybe don't. Other people I'm pretty sure no one would notice if they weren't trying to be a voice for minorities. If they were instead the dominant class.




it's not about her not trying to be a voice for minorities tho

that is certainly an issue with Rowling, but a seperate one
she did not include LGBTQ+ representation in characters, or write Hermoine as a black girl
but she wants to claim providing those minorities a voice for more fame

but what she did this month was an instance of making a public attack on minorities

for people who don't write about LGBTQ+ issues, but also don't talk about them in public channels
am not suggesting their content be tagged with "this person wasn't supportive"

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I'm sure more cultured peoples could come up with better examples. But I don't follow celebrities.

Shit I can't even name celebrities.




Barb Wire
:cookiemonster:


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793263 - 06/29/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah I know.

JKR and her infinite stupidity isn't the point.


I think Gibson's career would have survived the racism alone. For atime at least. He did alot of other shit.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26793275 - 06/29/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Yeah I know.

JKR and her infinite stupidity isn't the point.


I think Gibson's career would have survived the racism alone. For atime at least. He did alot of other shit.




Rowling's career will survive as well
it's survived previous public statements of transphobia on her Twitter
just not so inopportunely timed as this

but she has a wealth of content to make money off of
and even saw people responding to Emma Watson's tweet or posts about Daniel Radcliffe's open letter
saying that they won't watch the movies anymore and cannot wait for the remakes

:rofl:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793278 - 06/29/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I definitely feel the issue with this.

Everytime i bring up Chris Brown, one of my favorite artists of all time, i get shit on for his horrible acts of slapping women (Rihanna) which is of course completely fucked up and immoral.



Its a tough call. Its almost like they sneak in their own fucked up thoughts in the artwork so they can disguise their hate and discrimination. Definitely seems so eith the racist/transphobic artista, thats for sure.


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Invisibletrees
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #26793287 - 06/29/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'll admit this is a pleasant painting to look at, and it's really well done I'd say...



It was literally painted by Hitler, see bottom right signature. It's better than a  Bob Ross


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InvisibleTexas Honey BadgerM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: trees]
    #26793304 - 06/29/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Hitler was humming on the pharmaceutical grade AAA speed when he painted
:tweak:


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26793341 - 06/29/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Stephen King retweeted one of J.K. Rowlings tweets; a non-transphobic seeming one from a transphobic 9 tweet essay she tweeted on the 28th



because of him retweeting it, she made a tweet thanking him
because he retweeted something from a transphobic rant, his fans asked him his opinion on trans women
he said trans women are women -- in a tweet seperate from her essay thread



so she deleted the tweet thanking him



:rofl:

and it makes me happy that his random tweet that trans women are women
has more likes than the first post in her transphobic essay


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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika] * 5
    #26793397 - 06/29/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

See this is what happens when the media and public goes prying into artists private life.

If Rowling, Lovecraft and Nielson were just left to be artists and their work was assessed purely on their artistic merit then none of this hullabaloo would exist. They'd be known purely for their art and the less savoury aspects of their personalities would be completely irrelevant and have no negative effect. Unless they are pushing views which will have a negative effect on society through their art it is completely irrelevant.

Agendas are looking for victims and enemies alike, the two are barely discernable.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Northerner]
    #26793409 - 06/29/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Northerner]
    #26793418 - 06/29/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
See this is what happens when the media and public goes prying into artists private life.




"this is"
if in reference to my post
Rowling made her statements publicly on Twitter and got called out for them
she thanked Stephen King publicly, and Stephen King responded to a fan publicly
which triggered her to publicly delete her tweet

what is prying, exactly?
are artists immune to being criticized for views they present if they do not present them in an artistic manner?

Quote:

Northerner said:
If Rowling, Lovecraft and Nielson were just left to be artists and their work was assessed purely on their artistic merit then none of this hullabaloo would exist. They'd be known purely for their art and the less savoury aspects of their personalities would be completely irrelevant and have no negative effect. Unless they are pushing views which will have a negative effect on society through their art it is completely irrelevant.




as noted in Sara's original post
Lovecraft published his racist views in his works
that we have access to his letters and stuff made public for viewing after his death
simply provides more available context
having footnotes about things that were going on when he submitted particular works for publishing that contextualize why he was pushing those views through his work
is helpful

would argue the same would be valuable for Rowlings works after she dies
it would be worth making footnotes about stereotypes when she makes a snake into an Asian woman
it would be worth making footnotes about how when she presents magical mechanics that react to people, she imagines them reacting based on DNA rather than individuality

Quote:

Northerner said:
Agendas are looking for victims and enemies alike, the two are barely discernable.




Art is not produced in a vacuum,
some artists recognize and embrace that while others try to hide their views in their text


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26793420 - 06/29/20 10:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.




She made public tweets about make believe
if she did not decide that she was qualified to speak up on these issues
no one would respond to her on them

it is not like people are chasing her down for views she expressed decades ago
it is her putting these narratives into the public sphere, interrupting her tweets praising young fans for their drawings of her characters
with tweets those young fans can read about how she believes trans women are men

that you "don't really want to know" what is going on
does not change the fact that someone who you imply should stick to writing fantasy books
is actively attacking minorities in the public sphere


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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26793467 - 06/29/20 11:20 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
I feel like it’s getting harder and harder.

As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.




Kind of hard on ole Phillip cosidering that his wife was jewish.

Quote:

SARAtonin said:

Terese Neilson (MtG and other fantasy artist), until very recently I would have called her my favorite artist, owning literally thousands of dollars of her work, from cards she did the artwork for to limited prints to actual artists proofs. That is until she was outed as a follower of alt right conspiracy theory, nationalism, and transphobic thought. Her “apology” was especially hurtful basically saying “I’m lesbian, I can’t be a bigot.”




She followed Mike Cernovitch, so what?  She didn’t follow anybody who’s alt-right.  She’s a supporter of the president and for that she was cancelled.

Terese Neilson is not, I repeat, is not a fascist or a neo-nazi.  What’s happening to her life is a disgrace.

The real neo-nazi took years to get fired from WOC.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: lowbrow]
    #26793481 - 06/29/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lowbrow said:
Quote:

SARAtonin said:
I feel like it’s getting harder and harder.

As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.




Kind of hard on ole Phillip cosidering that his wife was jewish.




Which was also hard on him
having to first decide to 'elevate' his wife for being not typical of how he perceived Jews
to eventually loosening his resentment later in his life

and do feel that in exploring his narrative works that personal growth was also worth having in the foot notes along the way
it was an interesting airplane read
:cookiemonster:


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Invisibleremake
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 1
    #26793769 - 06/30/20 05:41 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Today we kind of have to walk on egg shells.

Internet stalking by internet sleuths is rampant.

In a way this is good, we can easily find people who truly need to be stopped with what they are doing.

In a way this is bad, since we forget that people are flawed in a fundamental sense.

Being a famous person, however, no matter how they happened to come under the public eye, are most likely experiencing what must be a very strange way of living.

Being under public scrutiny in such an extreme way undoubtedly has severe psychological effects, ranging from extreme delusions of grandeur and probably severe waves of depression.

Not to excuse any inhumane behaviour, but hopefully we will realise that famous people are just ordinary people.

I can't help but think the idolisation of them contributed to actions that might have been a misuse of power.

Long story short, we are all ordinary people.

Idolisation never works out, because we are flawed and constantly changing.

So works of art, imo, is separate from the artist. It is merely a reflection of the world through a particular point of view at a particular time. The more complex this network of perspectives become, imo - the better.

Even though we do not agree with certain works, words or images, knowing about them and taking the time to understand why they exist might help us in understanding ourselves and the world in a more complete way. Perhaps with more compassion too.


Edited by remake (06/30/20 05:55 AM)


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: remake]
    #26793776 - 06/30/20 05:51 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

remake said:
Today we kind of have to walk on egg shells.

Internet stalking by internet sleuths is rampant.

In a way this is good, we can easily find people who truly need to be stopped with what they are doing.

In a way this is bad, since we forget that people are flawed in a fundamental sense.

Being a famous person, however, no matter how they happened to come under the public eye, are most likely experiencing what must be a very strange way of living.

Being under public scrutiny in such an extreme way undoubtedly has severe psychological effects, ranging from extreme delusions of grandeur and probably severe waves of depression.

Not to excuse any inhumane behaviour, but hopefully we will realise that famous people are just ordinary people.

I can't help but think the idolisation of them contributed to actions that might have been a misuse of power.

Long story short, we are all ordinary people.

Idolisation never works out, because we are flawed and constantly changing.




u said it mister


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26793800 - 06/30/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I guess you are right. Isn't this what the whole cancel culture is doing? Although some art may be hard to appreciate after seeing the dark side of the artist, the person who created the art and the art itself are different things entirely. I mean the artist created something separate from them that people can appreciate. Everybody has a dark side and for others it is darker than others, but they at least may know it. Each case should be judged separately though.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793809 - 06/30/20 06:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.




She made public tweets about make believe
if she did not decide that she was qualified to speak up on these issues
no one would respond to her on them

it is not like people are chasing her down for views she expressed decades ago
it is her putting these narratives into the public sphere, interrupting her tweets praising young fans for their drawings of her characters
with tweets those young fans can read about how she believes trans women are men

that you "don't really want to know" what is going on
does not change the fact that someone who you imply should stick to writing fantasy books
is actively attacking minorities in the public sphere



I am curious, how did she attack minorities?


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