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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields
    #26789133 - 06/28/20 08:10 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)



SKip to around 6:00 if the intro is boring to you.
So I find it very interesting that these patterns produced in water at certain frequencies of vibration resemble very much some patterns found in nature. The most curious thing about nature and evolution to me ever since I was little was that how did they form into that pattern? Sure genes produce proteins etc, but what guides them to a particular shape? I don't think there is an underlying, all pervasive field, but some kind of field guiding within the organism. I don't know but it is very interesting. And similarity between vibratory patterns on a 2D frame and the 2D patterns in nature.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26789293 - 06/28/20 09:21 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

This is a super fascinating podcast on this phenomenon and theory:



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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26789619 - 06/28/20 11:35 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Before one gets too carried away with mysticism, it might be good to balance it out with:

"Human Errors: A Panorama of Our Glitches, from Pointless Bones to Broken Genes "

by
"Nathan H. Lents is an American scientist, author, and university professor. He has been on the faculty of John Jay College since 2006[citation needed] and is currently the director of their honors program and the campus Macaulay Honors College program.[1] Lents is noted for his work in cell biology, genetics, and forensic science, as well as his popular science writing and blogging on the evolution of human biology and behavior. Lents is also a visiting faculty member at the University of Lincoln in the UK."

review on Amzn:
"We humans like to think of ourselves as highly evolved creatures. But if we are supposedly evolution's greatest creation, why do we have such bad knees? Why do we catch head colds so often - 200 times more often than a dog does? How come our wrists have so many useless bones? Why is the vast majority of our genetic code pointless? And are we really supposed to swallow and breathe through the same narrow tube? Surely there's been some kind of mistake.

As professor of biology Nathan H. Lents explains in Human Errors, our evolutionary history is nothing if not a litany of mistakes, each more entertaining and enlightening than the last. The human body is one big pile of compromises. But that is also a testament to our greatness: as Lents shows, humans have so many design flaws precisely because we are very, very good at getting around them.

A rollicking, deeply informative tour of humans' four billion year-long evolutionary saga, Human Errors both celebrates our imperfections and offers an unconventional accounting of the cost of our success."

a hard copy is available from Hamilton books.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: laughingdog]
    #26789652 - 06/28/20 11:48 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

" Why is the vast majority of our genetic code pointless?" First of all, we don't know this for a fact. Mysticism and theorizing are different things as well. It does sound mystical the idea of an invisible field, but this field of biology is quite mystical.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26789917 - 06/28/20 01:59 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I watched all of the first video, and I have no doubt that the morphogenic fields have mechanical and electrical impact on many things.

But I think he gets carried away with his standing wave obsession.

We do see examples of interacting waves in nature participating in living systems, probably in cells, but certainly in larger creatures, across any membranes - and especially across the folded cerebral cortex of our brains.

a big area for study.

do I think it is a direct participant in evolution? not so much.

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
" Why is the vast majority of our genetic code pointless?" First of all, we don't know this for a fact. Mysticism and theorizing are different things as well. It does sound mystical the idea of an invisible field, but this field of biology is quite mystical.




forget mysticism. there is no answer to WHY in evolution, however you can look at "What?", and see that old DNA is carried forward for millions of years:
a small fraction of this is useful in our development and existence.
it is carried forward as a by product of mitosis and meiosis, which are very dependable processes.

non-viable and non-competitive mutations are usually not carried forward in a next generation.

everything else usually is carried forward...
ergo tons of goodies and oceans of garbage

there is no safe way to get rid of it. so we evolve to carry forward with the junk genes.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26791004 - 06/28/20 09:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

I'm curious if every living thing has a particular signal or signature that is broadcasted into the field(morphogenetic possibly)?

Likely this might be how DNA acts with relation from body to enviroment..?

And what does this all mean with regard to the power of attraction..?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26791347 - 06/29/20 04:32 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
I'm curious if every living thing has a particular signal or signature that is broadcasted into the field(morphogenetic possibly)?




all things have a vibratory resonance  and behave variously among electrical fields.
not always a simple or repetitive signature.
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
Likely this might be how DNA acts with relation from body to enviroment..?




there will be effects of some waves and fields in local plasmas but not like the video suggests. though it is definitely a part of localized electro-chemical effects, i.e how enzymes function.
Quote:

BrendanFlock said:
And what does this all mean with regard to the power of attraction..?



it means we have to keep on studying with open minds.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26791719 - 06/29/20 09:39 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
" Why is the vast majority of our genetic code pointless?" First of all, we don't know this for a fact. Mysticism and theorizing are different things as well. It does sound mystical the idea of an invisible field, but this field of biology is quite mystical.




.    RGV explained it to some degree. The human eye vs the cephalopod eye is another huge glitche carried forward by evolution, which, constantly 'gets laden with old work arounds', that cannot be fixed by later mutation. The book mentioned, details this in dozens of cases, as regards the human body. Of course there are at least hundreds of more such cases, if we enlarge our field of study to include more organisms.

.  Sure nature is full of strange fields. Even physics is now explained with fields instead of particles vs waves.

.  My point is simply, that very often when some sort of perfection is clung to as an aspect of manifestation, it ends up being a way to sneak in a 'personal God' (ie. one that cares about people & individuals) and a 'personal self' (ie. one that has some sort of meaningful/ core /cohesion, some sort of permanence/solidity/ and exerts control 'over' itself in such a way as to be able to create a life free of suffering and a life full of predictable happiness, together with the ideals we should attempt to live up to, to maintain this fantasy.

.  Similarly, strangely, the 'Big Bang' theory is rather close to the biblical Genesis. Seems folks just want to 'have their cake and eat it too'.
.    Similarly, strangely, evolution is most often misinterpreted, as a striving (by whom or what?) for some sort of absolute perfection, with (of course "Man") at the top of a pyramid. Ironically, actually studying evolution may wake one one up to the fact that the opposite is the case. There is no Santa Claus. No wizard behind the curtain. Nada.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: laughingdog]
    #26792895 - 06/29/20 06:28 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Jeez that’s askin a lot inner wisdom what is that like 3 hrs of footage ?

Idk much about the topic but aren’t they able to measure the morpho fields ?  It sounds pretty mystical from an empirical perspective dare I say.  But if they can measure them then maybe it’s not.  :shrug:


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26793622 - 06/30/20 02:16 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

The part where they talk about morphogenetic fields and all the research that supports it is only like 1 hour. Well worth the watch from the 10min mark on ward. The phenomenon that has mostly been studied is animals like rats learning a particular thing faster than they should. The latter animals tested are quicker to learn than the first ones even on the other side of the world. The idea is pretty much that there is a field where the rats and other animals pick up on things, because they resonate in it or something.
I can look up the particular examples later if I have time.


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26795030 - 06/30/20 05:06 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Reminds me of kids these days who seem to pick up the standard electronics and learn it much more easily than previous generations.  Morphogenetic fields.  I’m definitely with Sheldrake on this in terms of genes being overrated and over empathized.  I wish he would of explained more thoroughly what a morphogenetic field is tho.  What I got out of it was that they are patterns of ā€œresonanceā€ over time that act as a kind of memory for the species or other grouping of some kind. 

There’s a book called ā€œStalking the Wild Pendulumā€ that talks a lot about morpho fields although I’m not sure they were specifically called that.  At any rate the author there made the case that morphogenetic fields extended well beyond animals throughout all of the physical cosmos including the planets and stars etc.  Idk if Sheldrake has this in his understanding but it is interesting. Because it sounds evident that it is in fact a thing yet it would be difficult to really define what a morphogenetic field is without sounding unscientific.


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26795047 - 06/30/20 05:15 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting.

These patterns (fractal as they are) also appear in the markets.
Try imagining the graph as a side view of the surface of a pond and our consciousness creating the frequency.

These aren't graphs of markets they are graphs of us.:thumbsup:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: Yellow Pants]
    #26801394 - 07/03/20 12:37 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yellow Pants said:
Reminds me of kids these days who seem to pick up the standard electronics and learn it much more easily than previous generations.  ....




"every one should believe in something,
I believe I'll have another drink!"

Who knows why people want to believe in something?

Lots of people speak spanish in Spain, & russian in Russia, etc.
but the "morphogenetic fields"
of those in Spain & Russia, will help no one in China (etc.) learn those languages.

I expect folks would learn something much more useful if they figured out why
they want to believe in something, a bit kooky.
But those who are willing to look inwards, and backwards before moving forward are few indeed.

As for the question in the quote it would seem uncountable changes in modern culture account for many such cases. Think of how our language and customs have changed since Shakespeare's time, which was not that long ago. Of course growing up with telephones, TV, and math classes (etc.) will affect kids, too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: laughingdog]
    #26801434 - 07/03/20 01:07 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

we should be able to pin all that on the morpho fields of potatoes.


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: laughingdog]
    #26802740 - 07/04/20 03:07 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Regarding standard electronics, if by that we mean smart phones and computers, they aren't very difficult to learn and especially smartphones are very intuitive to use: you just touch and there you go. They aren't very different from old analog devices previous generations had like cassette decks and radios and stuff like that. Also we have nothing to compare to how fast children these days are learning to use these technologies.
Regarding what would said about believing things, are you saying that the morphogenetic field idea is a kooky belief? I would agree believing any idea without sufficent evidence is kooky, but to believe one's own hypothesis about something is essential to testing it out and researching it. Believing it for a fact without support is just a belief.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26803349 - 07/04/20 10:52 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Regarding standard electronics, if by that we mean smart phones and computers, they aren't very difficult to learn and especially smartphones are very intuitive to use: you just touch and there you go. They aren't very different from old analog devices previous generations had like cassette decks and radios and stuff like that. Also we have nothing to compare to how fast children these days are learning to use these technologies.
Regarding what would said about believing things, are you saying that the morphogenetic field idea is a kooky belief? I would agree believing any idea without sufficent evidence is kooky, but to believe one's own hypothesis about something is essential to testing it out and researching it. Believing it for a fact without support is just a belief.




"are you saying that the morphogenetic field idea is a kooky belief? " -- Yes--because as I said:
"Lots of people speak Spanish in Spain, & Russian in Russia, etc.
but the "morphogenetic fields" of those in Spain & Russia, will help no one in China (etc.) learn those languages. "
.  It just seems obvious common sense. No new experiments necessary. As is often said  extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not the reverse.

.  As regards: "They aren't very different from old analog devices previous generations had like cassette decks"---of course you skipped over both the changes in language, and all the tacit assumptions that go with that, and math classes, and being surrounded by people from birth who are already good at (in this case, electronics) the subject and take it for granted.
.  Take the case of the 4 minute mile. After one guy did it others' beliefs changed and they could do it too--but not everybody with no effort--only those who were good runners already--& no weird long distance explanations were necessary, just belief in a known fact, which, type of phenomenon can be seen in many cases.
.  Our common knowledge of a huge amount of science, in about half the population, makes an enormous difference, in the entire "mindset" of todays' kids. Your being dismissive of todays technology, because of how some humans use it, misses this bigger picture.

You are correct that my attitude, as regards "morphogenetic fields", is dismissive.

.  A similar claim was made by NLP folks and Tony Robbins --- namely that just by modeling very successful folks one could become a great runner, or artist, or business person, or whatever --- and the suckers lined up to buy their great insights and techniques --- a little skepticism is often a very wise investment.

Then there were the TMers teaching "Yogic Siddhis" including flying....
It cost over $2000.00 back in the day
They to had many takers
--- a little skepticism is often a very wise investment.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: laughingdog]
    #26804426 - 07/04/20 11:39 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Analog ideas are archetypes.. of the meaning beyond/above behind a certain symbol.. ascertaining the meaning of the symbol is true! 1/0 false divided by true.. binary boolean search requirement function.. (s) theory!


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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26804429 - 07/04/20 11:42 PM (3 years, 7 months ago)

So the true wisdom chochmah is found from the experience which requires every facet of reality necessarily as experiencers experience each other!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #26804912 - 07/05/20 09:53 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

too much DXM ? When grammar is abandoned one can't even share silly beliefs.

but robo style movement  can be perfected WITHOUT Robo

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSiO9HSviL3d9WOCHcY8F-Q

which apparently interests some folks, a lot


Edited by laughingdog (07/05/20 10:13 AM)


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InvisibleYellow Pants
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Re: Dynamic Patterns in Water as Analogue Models - and discussion about morphogenetic fields [Re: laughingdog]
    #26805049 - 07/05/20 11:14 AM (3 years, 7 months ago)

Ok laughingdog would you also say that the rats are able to call each other on the telephone and communicate that the acetone chemical is something to be suspicious about?  And you can’t simply refer to genes to explain this mechanism.

And I am referring to the experiment where rat poison was tainted with the citrus-y chemical ā€œacetoneā€, something like that, where the rats began to associate the smell of acetone with the poisonous effect where their offspring immediately associated the acetone smell with ā€œdangerā€ and became notably anxious without themselves having experienced the process.


Edited by Yellow Pants (07/05/20 11:20 AM)


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