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OfflineOscarVogel
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Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin?
    #26773868 - 06/22/20 11:37 AM (11 days, 23 hours ago)

It’s usually used to treat restless leg but also prescribed for depression.


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"It's not what goes into the mouth. It's what comes out that counts" - Oscar Vogel


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: OscarVogel]
    #26773879 - 06/22/20 11:46 AM (11 days, 23 hours ago)

It's a parkinson drug primarily, a dopamine agonist. I have no exp with it, but I imagine it makes the trip more like LSD which also a dopamine agonist.
But I am very interested in your expereince taking it, have you ever tried Ritalin or Amphetamines? I imagine it to be similar, is it, so stimulating etc? If not how does it compare to other stimulants you know, like coffee, etc?


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OfflineOscarVogel
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: polaritymind]
    #26775658 - 06/23/20 01:48 AM (11 days, 9 hours ago)

Thanks for responding polaritymind. I take pramipexole for depression. My doctor said it would not interfere with psilocybin. But I think it does. I had not had psilocybe cubensis since the 80's. But I've been growing some and last weekend decided to try a minimal dose.

I started w/ 1.5 g (dry). Nothing. Ate another gram. Still nothing. Every hour or so I ate another gram. After 4 hours I had eaten over 4 grams and only felt restless.  After that I quit counting but ate at least a few more grams. Never really felt much of anything except that it did keep me up all night, but groggy. Not at all like dexedrine.  More like caffeine.

So I was disappointed and suspected that the pramipexole got in the way.

But now as I review the time line, 4 grams over 4 hours isn't all that much, I guess. Especially since I'm a big guy. I'll try again this weekend with double the dose.


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OfflineInfiniteDreams
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: OscarVogel]
    #26776050 - 06/23/20 09:32 AM (11 days, 1 hour ago)

Psilocybin itself builds a tolerance quickly, so you should only concern yourself with your initial dose. 

The fact that you consumed random amounts during the 'trip' doesn't matter.

Shrooms also vary in potency.  It could be a weak batch, or it could be the medicine interfering. 

I wouldn't be disappointed, just learn your system, more important if you need that medicine to approach it from a safety standpoint.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: OscarVogel]
    #26776364 - 06/23/20 12:08 PM (10 days, 23 hours ago)

Quote:

OscarVogel said:
I started w/ 1.5 g (dry). Nothing. Ate another gram. Still nothing. Every hour or so I ate another gram. After 4 hours I had eaten over 4 grams and only felt restless.  After that I quit counting but ate at least a few more grams. Never really felt much of anything except that it did keep me up all night, but groggy. Not at all like dexedrine.  More like caffeine.





When I asked what it was like, and if it was like dexedrine I actually didnt mean the combination, but the pramipexole alone? How does it feel, I've never talked to anyone who takes it for depression.

But yeah the combo certainly isnt dangerous I think, and we do understand quite little about how psychedelics really work, one part of them is that they cause a big glutamate release, a little more downstream than 5HT2A activation, so it might well be, that pramipexole interferes with that. Maybe the dopamine system, thus strengthened, has a stronger controlling influence on the Glutamate system than 5HT2A activation (serotonin system). But thats just a thought. Also, another possibility is, I dont know how well studied pramipexole is, that it has other, so far unknown binding sites than dopamine receptors, like maybe it does bind, only doesnt activate the serotonin receptor (mixed agonist/antagonist, high affnity but low efficacy) and therefore it hasnt been discovered yet, but it is enough to block it so something else cant bind it.

Whatever the reason, I am very interested in this experiment and the data you are thus creating, so keep us posted on whether a higher dose all at once will do something!


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
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OfflineOscarVogel
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: polaritymind]
    #26777956 - 06/23/20 11:56 PM (10 days, 11 hours ago)

I was prescribed Dexedrine for ADHD.  And I took it for over 25 years and got up to eight 15mg spansule tabs per day, and I always ran out early. Good stuff. Especially good w/ weed. I never thought of comparing it to Pramipexole.  I take Pramipexole for depression.  I have a mid but persistent depression. I've tried everything and Pramipexole works the best. But not great. And I don't feel any other effect from it. 
But I've started growing mushrooms with the intention of using them therapeutically as a treatment for depression. I thought that 1 full trip every 6 months or so could be effective. And I was considering microdosing.  As I've been growing the mushrooms, I've been talking to my psychiatrist about what would be the proper dose. But after my disappointing experience last weekend, I realize that there's no way to figure the proper dose of mushrooms.  So now I've just about abandoned the whole idea. Which is too bad because I had a lot of hope for it.
But I'm going to talk to the shrink tomorrow, and will probably take a larger dose of mushrooms this weekend.  Maybe 3 or 4 grams with another 2 or 3 as a boost if needed.
That's where I'm at.  I appreciate all the input. I will post to this thread this weekend in case anyone is interested or may offer free advice.


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"It's not what goes into the mouth. It's what comes out that counts" - Oscar Vogel


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: OscarVogel]
    #26777976 - 06/24/20 12:05 AM (10 days, 11 hours ago)

The way you spaced your doses like that could've led to a sub par experience.
Maybe felt like an all night come up

Though usually 4g within 4hours no matter the method should work.

I'd stick with your 3g plan but have them straight up this time.


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: pineninja]
    #26780990 - 06/25/20 04:13 AM (9 days, 7 hours ago)

There is a lot of misconception about using mushrooms for depression out there. People tend to thing its a neurobiological thing, but I like to point them to some animal studies, for example with alcoholic rats, where the mushrooms had very little effect. I am going into the field myself, profesionally, and in my experience the mushroom itself only act as somewhat of a psychological amplifier. The healing thing tends to be the experience. Now, there is many people on this forum who are individualists, and really enjoy tripping alone. But I suspect that most of them dont have a secrious mental ilness, and so have a much easier time having positive and recreational experiences. But I have to say, from my experience, also having depression I can say that for me "mushrooms for depression" never worked until I got into a group where there is actual therapy going on.
I'd say the mushrooms arent a pharmacological cure, but they're more like an experience magnifier. So whatever experience you are heaving, for example and especially one of accepting relationships around you, ends up being the healing thing, not the "receptor-brain" mechanism of the psilocybin itself. It's not like a pharmacological drug, its much more of a facilitated therapy, If you want it to work. That is just my two cents, just wanted to tell you this so youre not disappointed. The brain-receptor mindset is soo depp in many, especially psychiatrists too, that even though yours is doing this with you, I suspect she has no idea uf psychedelics, and has no personal experience, and subconsciously also has these incorrect expectations of them.
Especially with depression, the amplified state very often *is* the depression, which means you get thrown right into your trauma and pain, and you really want someone experienced to be there with and for you, when that happens. Except if youre hardcore, but just be prepared for this, is all I am saying :smile: And I would say, as a general rule, if you are stuck in this, in these cycles in your everday life, meaning you dont know how to relate to these feelings then, it will be similar, when they are amplified. Sometimes we need some new input, and someone who can help us see, that there is another way, to relate to and deal with these feelings.


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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OfflineOscarVogel
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: polaritymind]
    #26781171 - 06/25/20 07:07 AM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Thanks for the insight polaritymind. I'm thinking that through.
So if the experience is the therapy, then microdosing would have no effect on depression? 
My sincere intention is to clear this fog of mild, persistent depression. And I thought there were 2 ways to do that w/ psilocybin; tripping and/or microdosing. I was planning on tripping. But now I'm thinking I'll try just microdosing for a month or two.
I tried mushrooms abut a dozen times back in the 80's, usually like last weekend. I would start w/ a small amount (out of fear), and then add to it every hour or so sort of chasing the high. And ending up disappointed and irritable. My "experience" last weekend was very similar.
Psilocybin has never felt recreational to me. I'm intrigued the by the idea of tripping but not really attracted to it. So I'm thinking that maybe microdosing can fix me. Exactly the "neurological thing" that you say has very little effect. That's just where my head's at today. I guess, confused.
On a side note, this is my first time growing mushrooms and it has been one of the most enjoyable things I've ever done. Pure fun. First thing every morning and last thing every night, I visit my little grow box and marvel at how they've grown. I'm on my 3rd flush and plenty of pins are still popping so beautifully I could watch them all day long.


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"It's not what goes into the mouth. It's what comes out that counts" - Oscar Vogel


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: OscarVogel]
    #26781439 - 06/25/20 10:02 AM (9 days, 1 hour ago)

Well for me at least, microdosing didnt work. I feel like it is a very overhyped concept, mainly from people who have very little of the psychedelic spirit in them and want to have the benefits of tripping without tripping and want to use it for productivity purposes, which in some ways one could argue goes against what psychedelics stand for. To use it to adapt better to this crazy work-addicted society. To make you feel your individuality less and be just another good servant etc. On the other hand people do want to be productive, and feeling happier and healthier often translates into higher rates of productivity, and if its this, and not "adaptedness" you're trying to measure, I am all for it.

But dude, I really recommend you make your own experiences, everyone is different and I can only speak from my personal history!

I would really like to hear from someone else, who likes to trip alone and has treated their depression with it. I m sure there are those people in this forum, just they might not see this thread, and I am not sure how to get their attention, but If yo keep asking around you might hear from them.

And I really get what you mean with growing mushrooms is fun, its gone so far for me, that I am growing edible mushrooms now because I cant eat so many actives and have more than enough stored for the next year or two. And yeah, consuming what youve grown is a very spcial different experience, its a whole different relationship you have to the substance then.


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: polaritymind]
    #26782687 - 06/25/20 07:31 PM (8 days, 15 hours ago)

It's also a natural progression.

I think micro dosing helps peoples inhibition fall away and it's natural to want to potentially go deeper.

I personally can't see much benefit in micro dosing other than to lead people closer to the true experience of mushrooms.
Alot talk about the benefits whilst few (for many reasons) will talk about that time they had a little to many and had a little trip,)

At the end of the day it's whatever works for you OP.
Though my hope is that you have that little trip at some stage:)


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Offlinepolaritymind
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: pineninja]
    #26789936 - 06/28/20 04:05 PM (5 days, 19 hours ago)

Yeah true. I never was gonna do LSD and was shared shitless of it, until I microdosed and realized how much moe organized and less chaotic/mind -melting it was than I had thought.


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"to affirm life is to also affirm death"
-Albert hofmann


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OfflineOscarVogel
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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: polaritymind]
    #26793427 - 06/30/20 12:51 AM (4 days, 10 hours ago)

I'm still wondering why these psilocybe cubensis I've grown has so little effect of me.  Yesterday I tested them out for a second time.  Took 5.3 grams over a couple of hours.  Certainly didn't trip.  Not really even "high".  But a real insight or two.  Felt more like what I read to be the effects of 1 or 2 grams.  Which is OK, because I didn't intend to go further.  But I just wonder again why so little from such a high dose.  I want a full therapeutic trip, but that will involve lining up a good sitter and scheduling a full day for it, etc.  I don't want to go through all that w/out knowing the right dose.  But I'm getting closer.  I'm thinking that about 10 grams is right for me.  But how can that be right?  I think the pramipexole somehow dulls the effects.  And am thinking I need to get off of pramipexole at least to find out if the psilocybin works better.
Does other anti depression medicines interfere with shrooms?  Must not ANY medication that regulates mood, by definition interfere with psilocybin? I think that's the conclusion.
Thanks for the input.


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"It's not what goes into the mouth. It's what comes out that counts" - Oscar Vogel


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Re: Does pramipexole interfere with psilocybin? [Re: OscarVogel]
    #26793527 - 06/30/20 02:26 AM (4 days, 9 hours ago)

I’m not sure if it’s an SSRI, which certainly do dull psilocybin. For most people, they will not trip while on.an SSRI. Other problem I note is that you took the 5g over 2 hours - that would explain why it only felt like 2g. Next time, take the 5g all at the same time - if you take it in a tea, you’ll be able to drink the whole dose in less than 2 seconds.

When you take your dose over a couple of hours, tolerance has built up before you have digested the full dose.

Good luck next time
DJ Ed


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“It’s like when you see a mountain lion,” he suggested. “If you run, it will chase you. So you must stand your ground.”
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“The problem is not to find the answer, it’s to face the answer.”
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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> The Psychedelic Experience

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