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InvisibleSARAtonin
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Separating an artist from their work. * 4
    #26792822 - 06/29/20 06:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I feel like it’s getting harder and harder.

As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.

Terese Neilson (MtG and other fantasy artist), until very recently I would have called her my favorite artist, owning literally thousands of dollars of her work, from cards she did the artwork for to limited prints to actual artists proofs. That is until she was outed as a follower of alt right conspiracy theory, nationalism, and transphobic thought. Her “apology” was especially hurtful basically saying “I’m lesbian, I can’t be a bigot.”





More recently there has been the commotion around Harry Potter and J K Rowling’s constant need to remind us time after time he is a shitty person who is not an ally to our trans brothers and sisters. Bring of the time I was raised Harry Potter was a literally monument of my childhood and something I will always look upon positively despite how hard it’s getting.

And now to Space Jesus, who brings me to make this thread. Jasha Tull (Space Jesus) has just all but been arrested for having sex with MULTIPLE underage women. I have literally met Jasha and spent actually time with him and until now have thought of him as an ally I would always look up to.


This all said, how do you separate an artist from their work? Am I just a shitty person and an apologist or should a persons work speak separately from themselves?

Are their any artists who you find disagreeable who’s work you can’t but remain a fan of? How do you justify it?

THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL THREAD SO DO NOT TRY TO MAKE IT ONE!!!


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Edited by SARAtonin (06/29/20 06:12 PM)


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26792848 - 06/29/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

an artist separates themselves from their own work


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: zZZz]
    #26792906 - 06/29/20 06:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The Writer of dune, Herbert is homophopic mushroomhead:shrug:
I enjoy hes books.

Lovecraft is from another time when in basic books used to teach reading had N for nigger. So did my dad. This did not stop him of having black friends.
Another time, another ways.

I had chat about this yesterday with relative. Just skip/ignore the personal bs and enjoy the art is my opinion.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #26792920 - 06/29/20 06:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
This all said, how do you separate an artist from their work?




You don't, you can't
the most you can do is gauge how shitty they are
and how much that seeps into their work

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
Are their any artists who you find disagreeable who’s work you can’t but remain a fan of? How do you justify it?




Was a longtime fan of Philip Anselmo's vocals and lyrics with Pantera, Down, and some of Superjoint Ritual
was always loosely aware of him pushing narratives of shit like "well this is this is a White Day and They don't understand" in between songs
but never actually experienced that when seeing them live
then he was video recorded at the end of a show doing a Nazi salute and yelling out "White Power!" somewhere down in the South
and it made me realize he was not pushing his narrative on tour in Canada just because it was prolly a place he had figured out it does not play well

have not since then listened to any of his new music, and openly talk to people about my distaste for some of his actions outside his published art
and avoid further financial support of his work so he at least cannot employ my money to his ends
maybe the rest of the band are all still cool dudes who put up with him because he is a good singer and it sucks for them to lose out by association
but they choose who they wish to continue association with

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
Terese Neilson (MtG and other fantasy artist), until very recently I would have called her my favorite artist, owning literally thousands of dollars of her work, from cards she did the artwork for to limited prints to actual artists proofs. That is until she was outed as a follower of alt right conspiracy theory, nationalism, and transphobic thought. Her “apology” was especially hurtful basically saying “I’m lesbian, I can’t be a bigot.”




will not speak too much on this to avoid it skewing into political thought too deeply due to not being familiar with this artist
but this form of non-apology shows up a lot among TERFs -- alongside it is a sentiment that they cannot be bigoted towards trans women,
because they view trans women as men and men cannot be victims of bigotry
and this slides into an adjacency with trans men where they are viewed as targets to be harassed because they left the woman's fight for the side of the enemy

Recognize this was hurtful to hear out of an artist you respected using her shared status with you to try and claim justification of hurting others
:hug::heart:


Quote:

SARAtonin said:
More recently there has been the commotion around Harry Potter and J K Rowling’s constant need to remind us time after time he is a shitty person who is not an ally to our trans brothers and sisters. Bring of the time I was raised Harry Potter was a literally monument of my childhood and something I will always look upon positively despite how hard it’s getting.




Rowling ruined my entire pride month with one ignorant tweet and her defense of her ignorance in place of even attempting to learn and understand

but was not raised on Harry Potter, it was a little after my time
and could honestly make a lot of criticisms that the reason it got so much fame and attention
is because it minimized diversity throughout its storytelling
Rowling talks about how getting in to the industry she felt minimized because her publisher told her to use "J.K." instead of her name
because a female author would not sell as well
but she chose to write a series focused on a hereditarily powerful male character and his female friend who does his homework

grew up on Animorphs and Everworld by K.A. Applegate
another female writer who wrote fantasy
but her books were always diverse in terms of character cast
off the top of my head the group in Animorphs was a white boy, his white female cousin, a hispanic boy, a black girl, and a furry (he was a white boy but he just straight up decides he would rather ditch his abusive family and live as a hawk)

and have heard a lot of positive things about a new youth series called Percy Jackson
which deals with ADHD, trans issues and numerous others


and part of me is inclined to think that the main reason Rowling got so rich is because she catered to the main stream
at a time when other (female) writers were already exploring a more diverse cast
and perhaps had their work passed over for Rowling's easier-to-sell-to-bigots series right from the start

it is a sad thing to recognize that diversifying artistic work to accept minorities often alienates financially powerful groups in the majority


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OfflineSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26792932 - 06/29/20 06:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Phil was also a huge heroin addict while acting like that. As we all have seen before,opiates can cause people to say some really disgusting things. I mean you never know, but I hit early dont think Phil is racist. The whole "white thing and they dknt understand" I think it was a more crude and maybe not the wisest way to call out inequality by trying to put it in the opposite perspective.  Music is everyone's thing and none should be excluded from it :smile:


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26792947 - 06/29/20 07:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.




So Lovecraft is arguably the most immediately offensive
the one off the top of my head that most integrated his shitty opinions into his work
and who almost undeniably impacted his sphere of art more than the others

but would also argue that his work benefitted from his hate

it is difficult to claim any work promoting hate benefits from that promotion of hate
but Lovecraft in particular was all about exploring the dark depths of (in)humanity
and what he externalized on to races allowed him to make a lot darker affirmations about the human race
there is a dual-edge to his attacks on other races -- it shows all the darkness he recognizes in humans externalized into a caricature rather than a character of isolateable personality
but by so doing it also unloads the equal degrees of darkness expressed in making those judgements

Lovecraft seems almost "fit" to pass judgement on the human race because he clearly has such difficult thinking of people as individuals

but another big thing about this is that it is really difficult to confront Lovecraft's work without confronting his racism
have multiple collections of his work, and each of them have a preface and numerous footnotes attesting to Lovecraft's racism and how they informed his work

this is the other area where Lovecraft becomes so important to examine
as a historical figure while the others are contemporary, his work is available to be published with these facts made available
the best you will get while Rowling is alive is a forward by her seeking to justify her exclusions in her own terms

but being historical it is also easier to distance oneself from the author in terms of emotional connection

being that the politics of the time influence things but do not totally define them
Lovecraft being racist even for his time
Rowlings transphobic opinions shown via public rating system to be less popular than their counters
it is important to not keep an artist apart from their views, as those views either openly or insidiously informing the works they produce


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SonicTitan]
    #26792949 - 06/29/20 07:02 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SonicTitan said:
Phil was also a huge heroin addict while acting like that. As we all have seen before,opiates can cause people to say some really disgusting things. I mean you never know, but I hit early dont think Phil is racist. The whole "white thing and they dknt understand" I think it was a more crude and maybe not the wisest way to call out inequality by trying to put it in the opposite perspective.  Music is everyone's thing and none should be excluded from it :smile:




The "White Power" instance with the nazi salute was much more recent and since he has cleaned up and written songs about staying clean tho


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OfflineSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26792953 - 06/29/20 07:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

How recent? I remember that happening before dimebsg was murdered  and Phil was hard in to junk then.

Edit: nvm just watched the video from 2016.. what the fuck this really saddens me...


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InvisiblepachooDiscord
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #26792964 - 06/29/20 07:07 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I find that the truth is in the duality. Not saying that I don't think anything is wrong with what some people say or do. If it's morally wrong to myself and most of society, then it's wrong to me. It's just that... you know sometimes I take the salt with the sugar if I feel like I really do enjoy the art. It makes me feel weird and talk about it but in my core I still adore their works...

Like take Michael Jackson as another example... I wholeheartedly believe he did do it. Like.... come on. It came from something that was an illness in himself and I can find some sort of empathy in remaining emotionally unattached to the situation over time but there is no way I wouldn't put him above the victims. But I still will sing to some of his songs, out loud, and maybe even dance a little. The art moves me, but the knowledge of his allegations and what I feel make me feel ashamed to enjoying it. It doesn't make me support what he did, it shows I still enjoy his music and creativity.

You have to play with context alot, and it just comes from openly understanding the person's motives, their personal experiences, the times they were alive, etc. But it's hard to do without becoming emotionally attached. You have to discover for yourself, in remaining totally clear of it, if you personally do get satisfaction from their art still. If you do not, then you don't. You shouldn't feel like you need to support the internal workings of an artist to get enjoyment from their art. It's art. It speaks to you. It comes from them, but art speaks to the viewer or listener.



But also, who knows... I'm sure there's people who disagree with what I just said. I'm just learning as I go.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26792968 - 06/29/20 07:10 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
And now to Space Jesus, who brings me to make this thread. Jasha Tull (Space Jesus) has just all but been arrested for having sex with MULTIPLE underage women. I have literally met Jasha and spent actually time with him and until now have thought of him as an ally I would always look up to.




Have no idea who Space Jesus is
but wanted to touch on this one independently
in part because Michael Jackson's music is so huge and so are the accusations against him

for me the instance of recalling this was Tripp Eisen from Static-X and (prior to that) Dope
guitarist, really interesting looking dude for a high school girl
turned out that was his schtick :evilpuke:

the part that is hard for me is his work was on guitars, and most of my love of music is in lyrics and vocals
so it is difficult to resist going back to content I enjoy for other reasons
then being reminded what a shitty dude he is
but he was also kicked out of the band (before the lead singer ended up dying...) so it was also possible to continue supporting their work without supporting him
and think that is a variation that depends a lot on what type of music the person does and how central they are to it

but, either way,
this shows up a number of times
also wanna say there has been a lot of controversy in Canada of late of a singer from a band named Hedly or someshit
with underage girls or general sexual assault

think it is a lot easier to seperate most of a pedophiles legal agenda from their musical work in terms of influence
but think it is also a lot more difficult, as well

at what point does one have to accept the possibility that what they did was not for a love of the art but for exposure to the crowd they wanted to sexually exploit
as previously stated, Tripp was all the stereotypes of attracting young Hot Topic goth girls to him
and pursued a career that made it easy for him to travel from city to city and meet underage girls


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Offlineichugwindex
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26792972 - 06/29/20 07:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The art means whatever it means to you. Yes separate the work from the artist.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: ichugwindex]
    #26792974 - 06/29/20 07:15 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Everyone’s a monster.  Some just learn to express it more healthily than others.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SonicTitan]
    #26792978 - 06/29/20 07:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SonicTitan said:
How recent? I remember that happening before dimebsg was murdered  and Phil was hard in to junk then.

Edit: nvm just watched the video from 2016.. what the fuck this really saddens me...




:hug:

When they played There's Something On My Side opening for Black Sabbath in Montréal around 2007
it was one of the most amazing concert experiences that totally drew me in to the moment
with just everything feeling so complete and loud and yes

so yeah, am also saddened -- as stated, try not to let it spoil his previous work for me because he did not (openly) push his agenda through it
but do not feel comfortable financially supporting them moving forward, so likely will not see them again
and will have to patch up my t-shirts and hoodies rather than replace them :lol:

but it should be noted, and perhaps has been too minimized through my posts so far
but a personal connection to artistic work can do a lot to mitigate concerns when willing to speak out against those beliefs
it has been meaningful to me to be able to own my frustration over Phil's more recent racism
to be able to recognize "I love this work about being buried in pot after my death, but I would not bring about my death defending ideas of racial superiority over others"


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OfflineSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793098 - 06/29/20 07:59 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Pantera was a different phil not the phil today. You could tell they were all just havi g fun with everyone. This is so sad seeing that shit from Phil.

Pantera were all about partying  and having a good time and playing some heavy music. Dime must be rolling g over in his grave.


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InvisibleAhab McBathsalts
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SonicTitan] * 7
    #26793103 - 06/29/20 08:01 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I don't give a fuck. Thriller was the best album ever made.





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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #26793107 - 06/29/20 08:03 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

This is a difficult and longstanding debate with no clear answers.

Terrible, awful people have produced truly great works of art. Masterpieces even. The artwork to a certain degree is separate from it's creator, but it's also not separate.

How much purity do we want or need out of the author of a great work? What about the authors we know nothing about? Should we assume that their works and lives were good on the basis that we simply don't know? What does that say about how we react to the authors whose lives we do know about?

I think it depends on the quality of the work, and just how evil exactly its creator was. If the work is not evil, and if it's a true masterpiece, then I don't think that it's creator being truly evil has any impact on it. But if the work is merely pretty good or very good, and if the author is truly evil, then maybe it does have some impact. And likewise, if the work is merely mediocre, then I think throwing it away on the basis of the author's life might be justified. I would like to believe that works are totally independent of their creator, but I myself have stopped listening to music because I so totally hated its creator.

There's an important difference though in talking about this in the present day versus talking about it historically. Anyone born in any time is never free from the culture and biases of the time and place they were born in. If we demand that people who lived in the 1600s conform to our modern morality, then we're not going to be able to read anything from that time period at all. Even more so if we're talking works from Rome or ancient Greece.

But people who lived in ancient time periods at least had an excuse: they were the product of a culture and a time that they were unable to escape from. They would naturally reflect the prejudices and biases of their time period even if they didn't want to. If we're going to judge them, I think it gets closer to the truth to look at where they stood relative to what was going on during the time period they lived through. If we refuse to admire classical artwork unless its artist was pure by modern standards, then we're not going to be able to enjoy really much of anything prior to 1900.

An artist in the modern day, on the other hand, is a totally different story. They know better, or should know better. They have opportunity and perspective that people living hundreds of years ago didn't have. If they choose to back something like white supremacist ideology, that is a hundred times more damning than if someone believed some kind of supremacist ideology in 1000 AD. They should know better, they live in the modern day and undoubtedly have learned about and been exposed to things like the civil rights movement, ideas about equality, all of that kind of stuff.

Undoubtedly, people from hundreds or thousands of years from now will look back at us as barbarians and savages. Does that mean that all of the artwork produced by our culture should be discarded in the future? If so, then the future will perpetually have no past, no tradition, no great classical masterpieces. Art will instead only have a present. It won't even have a future because the future will discard the past.

On the other hand, if someone was truly a monster, then I have a hard time enjoying their work knowing that. But again, it depends on the greatness of the work, and just how much of a monster they were, and it also depends on the time period and culture they were born into.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #26793108 - 06/29/20 08:04 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

It's easiest when you realize basically everyone is a terrible person.


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 2
    #26793111 - 06/29/20 08:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Charles manson had some ideas that I agree with.

Shit half the modern marvels of science come from Nazis.



Bad people can have good ideas and you can respect the idea without respecting the person.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #26793136 - 06/29/20 08:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Daaamn. Good thread :thumbup: that is a famn good question. I am playing mtg with 3 friends as we speak :/


Edit: I'd say as long as the art is purchased secondhand(ebay, thrift store, etc) and not contributing to a racist etc. It would be ok, that's just my take cos I am a fan of  mtg and Harry Potter:p


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OfflineSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow] * 1
    #26793169 - 06/29/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I listen to Wagner and really enjoy his orchestral pieces without the opera singing (not a fan of a lot of opera)
I dont feel like the music is to be seen as anti semitic. (Tho he was an anti semetic trashbag)

James Brown was a piece of shit who beat the shit out of women and notorious prick to his band but everyone loves his music. We shouldn't let his personal life affect the art that came out.

Miles Davis was an angry man, drug addict and allegedly would abuse his wife or girlfriend at the time.  His music wasn't a representation of his personal life.

We may as well burn all the paintings over the last 700 years or whatever because a lot of the art back then was probably created by people with a lot views that would be majorly conflicting to how we see society.

It's a really hard one to not hold resentment to someone you once were inspired by after finding out about some dark truths about the person.

Now if we are talking about shit like NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal) then they can fuck the hell off.


Edited by SonicTitan (06/29/20 08:32 PM)


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26793170 - 06/29/20 08:23 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

As for minority representation in fiction (or even non fiction) ... well we don't have a lot to pick from.

What becomes popular wouldn't be as ideal as it sometimes can be for a non-minority simply because there's just less to pick from.


Then you can also spiral down into this and it's worth being aware of




If JK Rowling were a man would she be shit on by her platform so much?



I can't help but think "boys will be boys" would influence that.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #26793212 - 06/29/20 08:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
If JK Rowling were a man would she be shit on by her platform so much?



I can't help but think "boys will be boys" would influence that.




Prolly not
and she would not be faced with so many trolls who just want to hate on women rather than support the trans movement

but on the flipside, if J.K. Rowling were not a billionaire, would she have still be so culturally tone deaf to take the actions she did?

while other people were supporting protests uplifting minorities around the world
she stayed quiet
then she decided to speak up during Pride Month while people were in the streets for minoritiy rights
she did it from an ivory tower and punched down on trans men
then when called out on that, she defended punching down on trans men by voicing her fear and distrust of trans women

would certainly hope that any other celebrity who had been so aggressively out of touch would have people speak up

personally, again just glad to have been brought up by a more open and understanding author
but perhaps K.A. Applegate just never got big enough to be consumed by Rowling's style of minority hate
:shrug:









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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793238 - 06/29/20 08:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I know what she did. Basically everyone knows what she did.

:ohwell:

I can't imagine that would be the case if she were a rich white dude instead of a rich white lady.


I'm not saying she didn't deserve the backlash she got, I think she did, but other people... maybe don't. Other people I'm pretty sure no one would notice if they weren't trying to be a voice for minorities. If they were instead the dominant class. Which we already have enough of.


My concern is pushing minorities back by... them not being good enough for us when that's basically all we got for the time being. Publishers notice this shit.


I'm sure more cultured peoples could come up with better examples. But I don't follow celebrities.

Shit I can't even name celebrities.


--------------------
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26793250 - 06/29/20 08:58 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Yeah I know what she did. Basically everyone knows what she did.

:ohwell:

I can't imagine that would be the case if she were a rich white dude instead of a rich white lady.




Off the top of my head, Mel Gibson has been hit pretty hard for anti-Semitic remarks

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I'm not saying she didn't deserve the backlash she got, I think she did, but other people... maybe don't. Other people I'm pretty sure no one would notice if they weren't trying to be a voice for minorities. If they were instead the dominant class.




it's not about her not trying to be a voice for minorities tho

that is certainly an issue with Rowling, but a seperate one
she did not include LGBTQ+ representation in characters, or write Hermoine as a black girl
but she wants to claim providing those minorities a voice for more fame

but what she did this month was an instance of making a public attack on minorities

for people who don't write about LGBTQ+ issues, but also don't talk about them in public channels
am not suggesting their content be tagged with "this person wasn't supportive"

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
I'm sure more cultured peoples could come up with better examples. But I don't follow celebrities.

Shit I can't even name celebrities.




Barb Wire
:cookiemonster:


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793263 - 06/29/20 09:06 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I know.

JKR and her infinite stupidity isn't the point.


I think Gibson's career would have survived the racism alone. For atime at least. He did alot of other shit.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26793275 - 06/29/20 09:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Yeah I know.

JKR and her infinite stupidity isn't the point.


I think Gibson's career would have survived the racism alone. For atime at least. He did alot of other shit.




Rowling's career will survive as well
it's survived previous public statements of transphobia on her Twitter
just not so inopportunely timed as this

but she has a wealth of content to make money off of
and even saw people responding to Emma Watson's tweet or posts about Daniel Radcliffe's open letter
saying that they won't watch the movies anymore and cannot wait for the remakes

:rofl:


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793278 - 06/29/20 09:13 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I definitely feel the issue with this.

Everytime i bring up Chris Brown, one of my favorite artists of all time, i get shit on for his horrible acts of slapping women (Rihanna) which is of course completely fucked up and immoral.



Its a tough call. Its almost like they sneak in their own fucked up thoughts in the artwork so they can disguise their hate and discrimination. Definitely seems so eith the racist/transphobic artista, thats for sure.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 2
    #26793287 - 06/29/20 09:14 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I'll admit this is a pleasant painting to look at, and it's really well done I'd say...



It was literally painted by Hitler, see bottom right signature. It's better than a  Bob Ross


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: trees]
    #26793304 - 06/29/20 09:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hitler was humming on the pharmaceutical grade AAA speed when he painted
:tweak:


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika] * 1
    #26793341 - 06/29/20 09:34 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Stephen King retweeted one of J.K. Rowlings tweets; a non-transphobic seeming one from a transphobic 9 tweet essay she tweeted on the 28th



because of him retweeting it, she made a tweet thanking him
because he retweeted something from a transphobic rant, his fans asked him his opinion on trans women
he said trans women are women -- in a tweet seperate from her essay thread



so she deleted the tweet thanking him



:rofl:

and it makes me happy that his random tweet that trans women are women
has more likes than the first post in her transphobic essay


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika] * 5
    #26793397 - 06/29/20 10:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

See this is what happens when the media and public goes prying into artists private life.

If Rowling, Lovecraft and Nielson were just left to be artists and their work was assessed purely on their artistic merit then none of this hullabaloo would exist. They'd be known purely for their art and the less savoury aspects of their personalities would be completely irrelevant and have no negative effect. Unless they are pushing views which will have a negative effect on society through their art it is completely irrelevant.

Agendas are looking for victims and enemies alike, the two are barely discernable.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.


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InvisibleThe Blind Ass
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Northerner]
    #26793409 - 06/29/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Northerner]
    #26793418 - 06/29/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Northerner said:
See this is what happens when the media and public goes prying into artists private life.




"this is"
if in reference to my post
Rowling made her statements publicly on Twitter and got called out for them
she thanked Stephen King publicly, and Stephen King responded to a fan publicly
which triggered her to publicly delete her tweet

what is prying, exactly?
are artists immune to being criticized for views they present if they do not present them in an artistic manner?

Quote:

Northerner said:
If Rowling, Lovecraft and Nielson were just left to be artists and their work was assessed purely on their artistic merit then none of this hullabaloo would exist. They'd be known purely for their art and the less savoury aspects of their personalities would be completely irrelevant and have no negative effect. Unless they are pushing views which will have a negative effect on society through their art it is completely irrelevant.




as noted in Sara's original post
Lovecraft published his racist views in his works
that we have access to his letters and stuff made public for viewing after his death
simply provides more available context
having footnotes about things that were going on when he submitted particular works for publishing that contextualize why he was pushing those views through his work
is helpful

would argue the same would be valuable for Rowlings works after she dies
it would be worth making footnotes about stereotypes when she makes a snake into an Asian woman
it would be worth making footnotes about how when she presents magical mechanics that react to people, she imagines them reacting based on DNA rather than individuality

Quote:

Northerner said:
Agendas are looking for victims and enemies alike, the two are barely discernable.




Art is not produced in a vacuum,
some artists recognize and embrace that while others try to hide their views in their text


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26793420 - 06/29/20 10:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.




She made public tweets about make believe
if she did not decide that she was qualified to speak up on these issues
no one would respond to her on them

it is not like people are chasing her down for views she expressed decades ago
it is her putting these narratives into the public sphere, interrupting her tweets praising young fans for their drawings of her characters
with tweets those young fans can read about how she believes trans women are men

that you "don't really want to know" what is going on
does not change the fact that someone who you imply should stick to writing fantasy books
is actively attacking minorities in the public sphere


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26793467 - 06/29/20 11:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
I feel like it’s getting harder and harder.

As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.




Kind of hard on ole Phillip cosidering that his wife was jewish.

Quote:

SARAtonin said:

Terese Neilson (MtG and other fantasy artist), until very recently I would have called her my favorite artist, owning literally thousands of dollars of her work, from cards she did the artwork for to limited prints to actual artists proofs. That is until she was outed as a follower of alt right conspiracy theory, nationalism, and transphobic thought. Her “apology” was especially hurtful basically saying “I’m lesbian, I can’t be a bigot.”




She followed Mike Cernovitch, so what?  She didn’t follow anybody who’s alt-right.  She’s a supporter of the president and for that she was cancelled.

Terese Neilson is not, I repeat, is not a fascist or a neo-nazi.  What’s happening to her life is a disgrace.

The real neo-nazi took years to get fired from WOC.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: lowbrow]
    #26793481 - 06/29/20 11:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lowbrow said:
Quote:

SARAtonin said:
I feel like it’s getting harder and harder.

As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.




Kind of hard on ole Phillip cosidering that his wife was jewish.




Which was also hard on him
having to first decide to 'elevate' his wife for being not typical of how he perceived Jews
to eventually loosening his resentment later in his life

and do feel that in exploring his narrative works that personal growth was also worth having in the foot notes along the way
it was an interesting airplane read
:cookiemonster:


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Invisibleremake
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 1
    #26793769 - 06/30/20 05:41 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Today we kind of have to walk on egg shells.

Internet stalking by internet sleuths is rampant.

In a way this is good, we can easily find people who truly need to be stopped with what they are doing.

In a way this is bad, since we forget that people are flawed in a fundamental sense.

Being a famous person, however, no matter how they happened to come under the public eye, are most likely experiencing what must be a very strange way of living.

Being under public scrutiny in such an extreme way undoubtedly has severe psychological effects, ranging from extreme delusions of grandeur and probably severe waves of depression.

Not to excuse any inhumane behaviour, but hopefully we will realise that famous people are just ordinary people.

I can't help but think the idolisation of them contributed to actions that might have been a misuse of power.

Long story short, we are all ordinary people.

Idolisation never works out, because we are flawed and constantly changing.

So works of art, imo, is separate from the artist. It is merely a reflection of the world through a particular point of view at a particular time. The more complex this network of perspectives become, imo - the better.

Even though we do not agree with certain works, words or images, knowing about them and taking the time to understand why they exist might help us in understanding ourselves and the world in a more complete way. Perhaps with more compassion too.


Edited by remake (06/30/20 05:55 AM)


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: remake]
    #26793776 - 06/30/20 05:51 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

remake said:
Today we kind of have to walk on egg shells.

Internet stalking by internet sleuths is rampant.

In a way this is good, we can easily find people who truly need to be stopped with what they are doing.

In a way this is bad, since we forget that people are flawed in a fundamental sense.

Being a famous person, however, no matter how they happened to come under the public eye, are most likely experiencing what must be a very strange way of living.

Being under public scrutiny in such an extreme way undoubtedly has severe psychological effects, ranging from extreme delusions of grandeur and probably severe waves of depression.

Not to excuse any inhumane behaviour, but hopefully we will realise that famous people are just ordinary people.

I can't help but think the idolisation of them contributed to actions that might have been a misuse of power.

Long story short, we are all ordinary people.

Idolisation never works out, because we are flawed and constantly changing.




u said it mister


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26793800 - 06/30/20 06:09 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I guess you are right. Isn't this what the whole cancel culture is doing? Although some art may be hard to appreciate after seeing the dark side of the artist, the person who created the art and the art itself are different things entirely. I mean the artist created something separate from them that people can appreciate. Everybody has a dark side and for others it is darker than others, but they at least may know it. Each case should be judged separately though.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793809 - 06/30/20 06:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.




She made public tweets about make believe
if she did not decide that she was qualified to speak up on these issues
no one would respond to her on them

it is not like people are chasing her down for views she expressed decades ago
it is her putting these narratives into the public sphere, interrupting her tweets praising young fans for their drawings of her characters
with tweets those young fans can read about how she believes trans women are men

that you "don't really want to know" what is going on
does not change the fact that someone who you imply should stick to writing fantasy books
is actively attacking minorities in the public sphere



I am curious, how did she attack minorities?


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26793826 - 06/30/20 06:36 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
Idk what she did, and don’t really want to know what she did..  Let her stick to doing what she does best - making books about make believe.




She made public tweets about make believe
if she did not decide that she was qualified to speak up on these issues
no one would respond to her on them

it is not like people are chasing her down for views she expressed decades ago
it is her putting these narratives into the public sphere, interrupting her tweets praising young fans for their drawings of her characters
with tweets those young fans can read about how she believes trans women are men

that you "don't really want to know" what is going on
does not change the fact that someone who you imply should stick to writing fantasy books
is actively attacking minorities in the public sphere



I am curious, how did she attack minorities?




It started with a reply to this news story which states:
Quote:

An estimated 1.8 billion girls, women, and gender non-binary persons menstruate, and this has not stopped because of the pandemic. They still require menstrual materials, safe access to toilets, soap, water, and private spaces in the face of lockdown living conditions that have eliminated privacy for many populations.




where she tweeted that rather than mentioning more than just women menstruate, the article should specify
Quote:

‘People who menstruate.’ I’m sure there used to be a word for those people. Someone help me out. Wumben? Wimpund? Woomud?




this compounded in to people pointing out that non-binary individuals assigned female at birth menstruate(as stated in the article she objected to), as do trans men
to which she went on a big twitter diatribe all about how recognizing trans men as men and trans women as women destroys the definition of what it means to be a woman, destroys any concept of homosexuality,
and puts women at risk of having all the rights feminists pushed for taken away from them
by men who are pretending to be women to sexually assault women

it is worth noting that the tweets from earlier in the same day
were perfectly normal, non-chalant and the types of things that most people would be happy to see on their twitter feed



then she went on a rant about trans people

for me, it is easy to imagine some little trans kid that tweeted her a picture one day that she responded to about how much she liked it
then turned around the next day to find the author who complimented them had made political posts letting that kid know she will never respect their identity as a person


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OfflineInnerWisdom
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793865 - 06/30/20 07:04 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Oh yeah that disagreement, I do remember now reading something about it. So essentially she is disrespecting these people's experiences. I do think trans men and trans women are different from biological men and women, but calling them men or women doesn't conflict with the "other type" of men and women nor take anything from homosexuality, but what do I know. "..men who are pretending to be women to sexually assault women." does she think all trans women sexually asault women or what does this mean? I mean I understand if the point is that someone who is trans dates another woman and doesn't disclose it at a proper time.
This whole gender and sexuality debate thing is so stupid. Let adults do and be whatever they want, but I do feel kids need to be protected from too much gender dysphoria in the media and encouraged them to take it slowly in these matters and supported in their individuality. So many teens think it is a solution to their sexual and gender-related problems to switch it. Also young kids should be protected from all gender propaganda and manipulation on both sides (trans and cis). Let kids be kids. They will identify their gender how they feel fit.

Didn't mean to derail the thread btw.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: InnerWisdom]
    #26793885 - 06/30/20 07:16 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
"..men who are pretending to be women to sexually assault women." does she think all trans women sexually asault women or what does this mean?




She was "kind" enough to write a whole essay about it
but it boils down to, she was sexually abused by a man
and because she views all trans women as men
she views trans women as men who are trying to change laws to make it easier to assault women by invading their spaces

really respect her standing up and talking about her experiences of abuse
when she talks about how she is so nervous that someone unexpectedly coming up behind her throws her into a panic attack
am right there with being able to relate to what she is putting down

but personally do not try to extrapolate that my experiences of abuse mean that all men are abusers
so it is hurtful as a woman to have her accuse me of being both of the same identity and same intentions of her abuser

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
This whole gender and sexuality debate thing is so stupid. Let adults do and be whatever they want, but I do feel kids need to be protected from too much gender dysphoria in the media and encouraged them to take it slowly in these matters and supported in their individuality. So many teens think it is a solution to their sexual and gender-related problems to switch it. Also young kids should be protected from all gender propaganda and manipulation on both sides (trans and cis). Let kids be kids. They will identify their gender how they feel fit.

Didn't mean to derail the thread btw.




Agree that kids should be protected from manipulation on both sides
but also recognize that the levels of manipulation are even larger than just a popular child's author ranting about trans people
there are all sorts of things with gendered toys and the like that heavily code kids perceptions of what is "right" for them to play with
and feel if a little boy wants an Easy Bake Oven, he should not be socially ostracized by adults as having a girls toy
and instead be looked upon as potentially the next great chef to go around insulting shitty cooks
likewise, a girl with an interest in insects should not be told she should be focusing on keeping her hair nice so people think she is well-behaved
she could end up making a discovery that changes how we understand the world if her curiousity is fostered

and think that if kids were not exposed to such heavy coding
there would be a lot less push for transitioning to "match" the coding that is pushed on them


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 1
    #26793907 - 06/30/20 07:29 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

A work of art belongs to the people. It’s a misunderstanding of ownership that causes people to worry about what artists do and think. If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it. Maybe you hope he gets evicted but you don’t think it has tainted your oil somehow. Every note on every Michael Jackson record is exactly the same no matter how many children he fucked. Celebrities are not your friends. Just because you know who they are doesn’t mean there’s a relationship. Unless you’re an idiot you’re not a fan of the person; you’re a fan of their art. The art isn’t changed so wtf does it matter? It reminds me of when Kobe Bryant or Anthony Bourdain died. Motherfuckers, you didn’t know these people.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793908 - 06/30/20 07:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:

and feel if a little boy wants an Easy Bake Oven, he should not be socially ostracized by adults as having a girls toy
and instead be looked upon as potentially the next great chef to go around insulting shitty cooks



Like this?


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: InnerWisdom] * 1
    #26793916 - 06/30/20 07:33 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

InnerWisdom said:
Quote:

Tantrika said:

and feel if a little boy wants an Easy Bake Oven, he should not be socially ostracized by adults as having a girls toy
and instead be looked upon as potentially the next great chef to go around insulting shitty cooks



Like this?





was thinking more like the next Gordon Ramsay
but maybe that is what Gordon was like as a kid :lol:


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26793919 - 06/30/20 07:35 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
...If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it. Maybe you hope he gets evicted but you don’t think it has tainted your oil somehow...




Would, however, go to someone else for future oil changes and stop giving him my money


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793930 - 06/30/20 07:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tantrika said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
...If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it. Maybe you hope he gets evicted but you don’t think it has tainted your oil somehow...




Would, however, go to someone else for future oil changes and stop giving him my money




Fair enough. People shouldn’t pay for art anyway.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 5
    #26793989 - 06/30/20 08:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

My problem with the way you've presented this issue is that it carries with it the underlying premise that a person is morally culpable for racist/intolerant beliefs.  While there are certainly morally reprehensible ideas that have led to undeniable tragedy and pain, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone with these ideas is morally culpable.

Much racism/intolerance comes from simple ignorance.  Undoubtedly, culture has created an entire mythology based on various differences between humans and how those differences should be interpreted to divine information about other people.  A child growing up in such a culture certainly isn't morally culpable for his/her own indoctrination in that mythology.  So, when does a person become morally responsible to abandon the mythology?  It can't be that everyone is evil until they learn better. 

Instead, each person must be judged not by where they are now on the racism/intolerance spectrum, but by how willing they are to adapt and adjust their beliefs when exposed to rational information.  I see it here all the time.  People come with ideas formed about this race or another.  After some discussions, people can change their minds.  Others won't.  That's the point where we can start making moral judgments.

Remember, the very word, "bigot" means a person who won't change his/her mind.

Lovecraft, as shitty of a writer as he was, came from a time when information was less available and culture was more intolerant and racist.  I don't know whether he was a bigot or not, because I don't know if he was ever truly exposed to solid information to counteract cultural myth.

Rowling, on the other hand, lives in a world where information is everywhere.  This makes it more likely that she has been exposed to solid information.  It also makes it more likely that she's been exposed to more cultural mythology.  Can I fault her for getting it wrong?  Maybe.  Still, I don't know whether she's truly a bigot or just not yet informed enough.

See, the reason this matters is that when you talk about "separating" the art from the artist, you're really asking whether you should label the art with the same label that the artist deserves.  Before you can get there, you have to figure out whether the artist really deserves the label in the first place.  Since that's often hard to determine, it's best to hold off on labeling the art beyond what the individual piece says to you.

Just my long-winded two cents.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #26794000 - 06/30/20 08:24 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I can separate people from their work, I follow the snake diet, I think the creator is genius when it comes to weight loss and working out, but out of his 400 and something videos he maybe has about a dozen not focused on health and are just his personal views, hes anti-vax, hes a trump supporter, he is against people being trans (he will still coach trans people and treat them like anybody else he coaches but he has personal views against them), those are the only three I can think of off the top of my head, but theres probably more, but I still watch his videos as he releases them, I even bought a over priced tee shirt from him to help support him cause his diet changed my life


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #26794087 - 06/30/20 09:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
A work of art belongs to the people.




Only in certain foreign cultures.

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:

It’s a misunderstanding of ownership that causes people to worry about what artists do and think. If the guy who changed your oil turned out to be a woman beater you wouldn’t change out your oil because of it.




Don’t know, I already change my own oil.


I don’t see a problem with seperating an artist from the work.  Some people don’t have the emotional fortitude to pull it off, however.

For instance, I love Picasso’s artwork.  A great fucking artist.  But also a complete douchebag.  Doesn’t stop me from loving his paintings.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: lowbrow]
    #26794096 - 06/30/20 09:32 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:whathesaid: with the twist of: as long as it's not supporting them directly. For example: if I wanted a Harry Potter movie I would go to a pawn shop instead of buying through a retailer.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26794119 - 06/30/20 09:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

https://www.stallman.org/harry-potter.html

there was a bookstore that released a potter book like a week or something before they were supposed to, they got a injunction prohibiting the buyers from reading the book before the publication date

so stallman says

Quote:

I don't say you shouldn't read these books. That I leave to the author. I only urge you not to pay for them.




lol, rowling told people not to read her books


--------------------
For most of the normies out there, an operating system is just a bootloader for Google Chrome.

Since Disney has obtained tremendous value from the public domain, knows how important the public domain is, and is firmly determined to never contribute anything to it.

My pronouns are He and Him, and my adjectives are Fat and Jazzy

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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: gopher]
    #26794136 - 06/30/20 09:56 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Isn’t she a billionaire?

:cutoff:


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa]
    #26794153 - 06/30/20 10:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Ya.  She can’t be cancelled.


--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26794159 - 06/30/20 10:07 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
It's easiest when you realize basically everyone is a terrible person.




Well that's the thing, very few can ever be 'good enough' by the standards of today. One has to have been abused into a state of constant victimization, that's very difficult to accomplish over the course of a lifetime.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Enlil]
    #26794160 - 06/30/20 10:08 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Think Enlil just saved the day.
Quote:

Enlil said:
My problem with the way you've presented this issue is that it carries with it the underlying premise that a person is morally culpable for racist/intolerant beliefs.  While there are certainly morally reprehensible ideas that have led to undeniable tragedy and pain, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone with these ideas is morally culpable.

Much racism/intolerance comes from simple ignorance.  Undoubtedly, culture has created an entire mythology based on various differences between humans and how those differences should be interpreted to divine information about other people.  A child growing up in such a culture certainly isn't morally culpable for his/her own indoctrination in that mythology.  So, when does a person become morally responsible to abandon the mythology?  It can't be that everyone is evil until they learn better. 

Instead, each person must be judged not by where they are now on the racism/intolerance spectrum, but by how willing they are to adapt and adjust their beliefs when exposed to rational information.  I see it here all the time.  People come with ideas formed about this race or another.  After some discussions, people can change their minds.  Others won't.  That's the point where we can start making moral judgments.

Remember, the very word, "bigot" means a person who won't change his/her mind.

Lovecraft, as shitty of a writer as he was, came from a time when information was less available and culture was more intolerant and racist.  I don't know whether he was a bigot or not, because I don't know if he was ever truly exposed to solid information to counteract cultural myth.

Rowling, on the other hand, lives in a world where information is everywhere.  This makes it more likely that she has been exposed to solid information.  It also makes it more likely that she's been exposed to more cultural mythology.  Can I fault her for getting it wrong?  Maybe.  Still, I don't know whether she's truly a bigot or just not yet informed enough.

See, the reason this matters is that when you talk about "separating" the art from the artist, you're really asking whether you should label the art with the same label that the artist deserves.  Before you can get there, you have to figure out whether the artist really deserves the label in the first place.  Since that's often hard to determine, it's best to hold off on labeling the art beyond what the individual piece says to you.

Just my long-winded two cents.



QFT:crankey:


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26794167 - 06/30/20 10:11 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

luv u op!


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Enlil]
    #26795492 - 06/30/20 08:18 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Rowling, on the other hand, lives in a world where information is everywhere.  This makes it more likely that she has been exposed to solid information.  It also makes it more likely that she's been exposed to more cultural mythology.  Can I fault her for getting it wrong?  Maybe.  Still, I don't know whether she's truly a bigot or just not yet informed enough.




Personally attribute Rowling's attacks to ignorance
but mostly because that gives me hope for her to learn and change

on the other hand, she has been pushing this narrative for a couple years now
and has been called out as wrong each time, with people explaining why
but she seems to go temporarily quiet then come back speaking about the issue even more loudly

as noted to CookieCrumbs, just this time around she really misjudged her timing on it
if she had not pulled this during Pride Month, no one of note would have spoken against her
Emma Watson tweeted this time, but she never tweeted any of the other times sort of thing

that said, actually find her anti-LGBTQ+ ranting during Pride Month to be unintentionally helpful to the LGBTQ+ movement

a notorious transphobe who has been publicly degrading trans women for years (he once insulted a trans man thinking it was a trans woman, got told that the trans man was wrestling women because of people like himself complaining, he deleted his tweets)
decided to come in to "rescue" Rowling by responding to as many trans people in her replies as he could telling them they are fake women
annnnnnnd he got himself banned from Twitter for hateful conduct, finally

also after Rowlings most recent rant
Reddit finally shut down one of their largest transphobic communities
that has been publicly pushing the narratives Rowling parroted

and honestly do not think such actions would have been taken if not for Rowling making such a highly visible mess in shouting down minorities


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow]
    #26795500 - 06/30/20 08:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

spirit_shadow said:
:whathesaid: with the twist of: as long as it's not supporting them directly. For example: if I wanted a Harry Potter movie I would go to a pawn shop instead of buying through a retailer.




Think this is a totally reasonable course of action
tho, to be fair, despite the fact that she makes so much money off the empire the movies opened for her
it is relevant to note that she is singularly responsible for the books
she is "just" formative in the production of the movies
and while taking the same course of action with the movies as you advise if wanting a copy
would also find a way to financially support the actors and actresses involved in the movie in other works

but this is kind of an issue in having to decide how and where we support artists
for instance, wanted to spend money on Kim Petras' cds but she appears to have only released Vinyl and MP3 versions
so, instead, intend to support her by picking up a hoodie and a hat from her official shop


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: qman]
    #26795506 - 06/30/20 08:26 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
It's easiest when you realize basically everyone is a terrible person.




Well that's the thing, very few can ever be 'good enough' by the standards of today. One has to have been abused into a state of constant victimization, that's very difficult to accomplish over the course of a lifetime.




This is an interesting position that seems like it comes from a state of constant victimization

rather than very few ever being 'good enough' by the standards of today

very few are ever actually criticized for their abhorrent positions by the standards of today

you speak as tho there is some impossible standard being held up that no one can get to
but the reality is there is a very basic standard that most people already adhere to and very few are being needed to be uplifted to


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26795687 - 06/30/20 09:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Thank God Hitler wasn't actually that good of an artist am I right?


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26795701 - 06/30/20 09:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Thank God Hitler wasn't actually that good of an artist am I right?




nor an author
took Mien Kampf out of the High School library
a brick of a read if ever there was one


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: morrowasted]
    #26795765 - 06/30/20 10:09 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Thank God Hitler wasn't actually that good of an artist am I right?



Yeah bob Ross was way better for sure...(even if he copied his whole style from his mentor William allexander) lol


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: morrowasted] * 2
    #26795790 - 06/30/20 10:17 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

morrowasted said:
Thank God Hitler wasn't actually that good of an artist am I right?




Did you not see the painting I posted that he did, it's is a dank ass mountain landscape painting, better than Bob ross. How is that not good?

This is Hitlers



This is a bob ross



Hitlers use of color is more advanced than bob ross, Hitlers is way more intricate and use of complex colors. Bob Ross painting looks elementary comparitivley.


Edited by trees (06/30/20 10:45 PM)


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: trees]
    #26795815 - 06/30/20 10:27 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

The Hitler one isn’t showing 🤨


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #26795823 - 06/30/20 10:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

There's a famous quote about never meeting your Idol (with social media it is too easy to "meet" them) so prepare to be disillusioned.  I am also an extreme cynic.  It wouldn't surprise me if Greta Thunberg was playing a part to make a brand for herself and make money.  Now I'm not saying I mind if she makes money incidentally to her work, but that her work was premeditated as a way to make money, a bizzaro Alex Jones if you will.  But like I said I am cynic, human depravity knows no bounds.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 1
    #26795831 - 06/30/20 10:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Blind Ass said:
The Hitler one isn’t showing 🤨




Tried to fix, I see it, but I just found this other Hitler one that is definitly dank. That's actually a really good painting of a tree



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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: trees]
    #26795850 - 06/30/20 10:47 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Your Hitler paintings aren’t showing up.

Now they are.


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Amanita86 said:
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: trees]
    #26795852 - 06/30/20 10:48 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

🧐

Hmmm.  Decent.  Now I can see why it didn’t take him anywhere good :sad:


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: The Blind Ass] * 5
    #26795857 - 06/30/20 10:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 1
    #26801148 - 07/03/20 09:48 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Snipped from your thread about Bassnectar
Quote:

SARAtonin said:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/CCFegEdp8LI/




So recognize that with what happened to your parents a lot of your talk about this dude being "dad" and the community he ran
likely meant you had a lot more invested than it is possible for me to relate directly to
and would like to reassert that you being willing to share this with us is huge

you mentioned in discord that you want to deny this until you are white in the face
but that you need to stand with women first
and that you adopted that view, and deleted the smilies from the server means more to me than you may realize
because it affirmed my having a safe place to deal with these issues around you -- that is the community you have given me as someone who has been an outcast all her life :heart:

but what really struck me was some of the characteristics of what he said
and am going to actually try to do a sort of compare and contrast with another artist

while we were talking about this all in discord and stuff, Alanis Morisette serendipitously came up in my youtube recommends
and as soon as firing up Hands Clean, immediately remembered it is a song all about grooming
or, rather, about being groomed

Alanis sings about her being groomed and abused from the ages of 14 to 19

worth noting that at the time of her abuse, 14 was technically the legal age of consent in Canada (now 16)
so the illegality of the affair comes out of the relationship she implies
she speaks about the abuser being in a formal position of authority over her, which immediately voids a portion of the law and makes the age of consent 18

it is important to note that Alanis has never named her abuser
the overall lyrics of the song heavily imply it was her producer who put out her first album around the age of 16
and a lot of people in her fanbase jump to accusations of him, but personally feel it important to recognize not to blame someone without an explicit identification from the victim when available


verses are parroting of things her abuser told her, chorus is her
Quote:

[Verse 1]
If it weren't for your maturity, none of this would have happened
If you weren't so wise beyond your years, I would've been able to control myself
If it weren't for my attention, you wouldn't have been successful and if
If it weren't for me, you would never have amounted to very much

[Pre-Chorus]
Ooh, this could be messy
But you don't seem to mind, and
Ooh, don't go telling everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

[Chorus]
Well, fast forward to a few years later
And no one knows except the both of us
And I have honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this

[Verse 2]
You're essentially an employee and I like you having to depend on me
You're a kind of my protégé and one day you'll say you learned all you know from me
I know you depend on me like a young thing would to a guardian
I know you sexualize me like a young thing would, and I think I like ya

[Pre-Chorus]
Ooh, this could get messy
But, ooh, you don't seem to mind
Dude, don't go telling everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

[Chorus]
We'll fast forward to a few years later
And no one knows except the both of us
And I've more than honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this

[Bridge]
What part of our history's reinvented and under rug swept?
What part of your memory is selective and tends to forget?
What with this distance it seems so obvious?

[Verse 3]
Just make sure you don't tell on me, especially to members of your family
We best keep this to ourselves and not tell any members of our inner posse
I wish I could tell the world cause you're such a pretty thing when you're done up properly
I might want to marry you one day, if you watch that weight and keep your firm body

[Pre-Chorus]
Ooh, this could be messy, and
Ooh, I don't seem to mind
Ooh, don't go telling everybody
And overlook this supposed crime

[Chorus]
We'll fast forward to a few years later
And no one knows except the both of us
And I have honored your request for silence
And you've washed your hands clean of this




the part that resonated most for me with the bassnectar audio
was when she talks about her abuser telling her he might want to marry her one day
akin to lorrin telling the victim that he couldn't take marriage seriously until she was 25-26
a time frame to string the victim along, and a promise of being so special as to "potentially" warrant a monogamous relationship

it chills me to think of just how many girls her age he may have fed that narrative to, bang now with no commitments but you are oh so special

back to Alanis tho
her not naming her abuser gives me a double-edged respect and frustration
the lack of naming makes the song accessible to others who have gone through manipulation and abuse
and that is a hugely empowering thing, and think that is the actual reason she keeps it this way

but it reflects on another issue with grooming
it is often very difficult for victims to get to a headspace where they want to speak of the experience at all
let alone do something to hurt the abuser in instances of grooming
because there was so much uplifting and affirmations of themselves at the hands of the abuser
that there is a risk of it all having been made up and not having anything to fall back on to
this is especially embraced in the first line of the song "If it weren't for your maturity, none of this would have happened"
she was 14 years old, with an older man telling her that his attraction to her was her "fault" due to her "maturity"

have known other women who were involved with men decades older than them at that age
and they speak of the experience with a confidence
that makes me want to say "wow you really internalized the manipultion"
because they treat having been in that relationship as a factual indicator that they have been mature from a young age
because that is what they were told over and over to justify playing with an old man's junk

and this plays back into my concerns that one recording is potentially indicative of a pattern of abuse
since he also seems to have a method of delivery set up for it as well


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika] * 2
    #26802470 - 07/03/20 11:21 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

so with what you supplied in discord with regards to Lorin's response to the situation
really felt it of value to this topic to be able to highlight contrasts between his response and that of another

so Lorin made a statement that the community has been dissecting



and while critical of his statement with regards to "rumours" compared to what has been available for me to listen to
would instead like to highlight the incredibly positive response on his part
none of the above excuses what he has potentially done
but they are really big steps to mitigating damage done to individuals
and to extend in to helping people not impacted by him directly but impacted by similar circumstances

forgiveness and a sense of balance can only really be defined by the victims of the actions
but it is also not my place to pass judgement or push for more than what they feel is sufficient

but would like to contrast this with Rowling's recent outbursts and actions


J.K. Rowling's statements and doubling down on them resulted in other artists raising awareness for the issues she spoke against
but this is certainly not the same thing as recognizing actions as hurting people and seeking to make ammends
she has actively opposed further efforts to educate her or foster empathy for those she hurts
and continues to use her position of disproportionate power to punch down on a minority

it is my hope that history properly recognizes such responses as much so as the initial transgressions
an individual's growth or lack thereof is important -- as much as prison is a corrupt and heinous system
the theory of rehabilitating rather than eliminating members of society is sound
and rehabilitation is a holistic process that covers a lot of things beyond just the transgressive behaviour


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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika] * 3
    #26802617 - 07/04/20 01:18 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I think its weird people who get passes. Mark Wahlberg committed unprovoked racial attacks on numerous minorities and no ever mentions it, Michael Richards aka Kramer dropped some N bombs on hecklers and never worked again.

I watch Roman Polanski movies and he drugged and raped a child, not even any maybe like MJ, he fucking did it. So it feels hypocritical of me not to watch a racist guys movies like Mel Gibson, or James Woods just because they say bigoted shit. 

Also I kind of make the dead vs alive distinction, reading Lovecraft isn't making him rich as he's long dead, whereas buying Harry Potter makes JK even more money.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: viraldrome]
    #26802631 - 07/04/20 01:30 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

What happened with Phil Anselmo?


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: viraldrome]
    #26802634 - 07/04/20 01:32 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Its that Celebrity Privileges'. Its like White Privilege but much more blatant. Harvey Weinstein was guilty of it then he finally got caught and his privilage was done-for.

When you are rich, famous and an artist, you have the privilege to bend the rules of Ethics. But they eventually get in trouble later down the road....and its happening more and more it seems.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: viraldrome]
    #26802677 - 07/04/20 01:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Mark Wahlberg is hot and Kramer is not.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #26802683 - 07/04/20 02:01 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

“The establishment” determines whether or not a lot of these people catch heat over shit they may or may not have said..  good little lap dogs get away with a whole lot more than ones who may struggle with sit/stay/roll over..


--------------------
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"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26802686 - 07/04/20 02:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Mark Wahlberg is hot and Kramer is not.




AHA I KNEW U WAS STRAIGHT
HAD ME FOOLED


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: zZZz] * 2
    #26802714 - 07/04/20 02:39 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Both Jimmy Page and Robert Plant got huge passes.

Iggy Pop is another.


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[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Offlineviraldrome
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: TheFakeSunRa] * 1
    #26802765 - 07/04/20 03:49 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Both Jimmy Page and Robert Plant got huge passes.

Iggy Pop is another.




Iggy wrote a full on song about an underage groupie. I think Bowie had an underage g/f too if I'm not mistaken. Bringing this up in my 40 something age group gets people really defensive and mad as though everyone in the 70s banged minors or something....

Tom Jones seems to not only have gotten away with it but got the press not to talk about it, google Tom Jones + South Africa you get stuff like:

https://www.brongersma.info/Police_investigating_Sir_Tom_Jones_over_child_rape_allegations


Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Mark Wahlberg is hot and Kramer is not.




Kramer said he was just trying to be edgy though in a foul mouth stand up comic kind of way, he was new to stand up and when he got heckled he didn't know what to do. I won't say I feel bad for him but I think its time we let him back in.
Marky mark oth committed violent racial hate crimes and has never suffered in his career for it....


--------------------
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: viraldrome] * 1
    #26803010 - 07/04/20 08:13 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Kramer even was like so apologetic in the most sincere way after that happened. He made some skype apperances on other talk shows and was shocked apologetic, not trying to be funny even though the crowds were laughing when he was apologizing and he was struggling to apologize profusely enough about that stand up thing.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: trees]
    #26803033 - 07/04/20 08:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I like the clip where he says it tbh

“40 years ago you’d be in a tree with a fork in your ass”
“You’re not funny”

As ferocious as Kramer tried to be the real truth that his stand up wasn’t funny was more brutal on a personal level. Every mediocre comedian suffers like a substitute teacher. They cry because people are talking but they’re talking because they’re not engaged. Not many people can do it. Being black isn’t a failure. Bombing on stage is and he freaked out because he was bombing not vice versa.


--------------------
[quote]Asante said:
You constantly make posts thatr fling middle school insults at people you don't like mixed in with maladjusted psychopathic comments about wanting to beat up the other poster with a crowbar.

You know how shit you are, you just don't give a fuck for precisely that reason.

I disendorse you.[/quote]


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Offlinelowbrow
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Amanita86]
    #26803154 - 07/04/20 09:17 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita86 said:
What happened with Phil Anselmo?




See for yourself.



--------------------
Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..


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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: zZZz]
    #26803324 - 07/04/20 10:40 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #26803368 - 07/04/20 11:03 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Here's Lindsey Ellis opening up about her experience with cancel culture on social media.



Only from the alt right instead of the left (or people who fancy themselves left.)

She makes a point early on in the video about someone who made some bad social media choices a very long time ago that someone dug up. She defended the person because she didn't want to set a bad precedent. People and times change.

That person was cancelled.

A few months later people tried the same tactic with her. Taking her posts out of context and using it to say she's a terrible person and trying to ruin her relationship with PBS and publishers.


She also says only one person in a position of any power attempted to cast a positive light for her in that situation.

I think this happens because we are obsessed with negativity. A rallying cry is more effective when you provide a target for hate rather than love. Because... we don't like love very much. We don't like expressing it anyway. Or we think it's not welcome or not helpful.


But always getting behind the hate parade and not the pride parade has... very negative implications.



Lindsey Ellis is one of the few celebrity (?) voices I respect because she always makes the point to her audience that it's not right to say thing bad or thing good most of the time. That's too simple and often not entirely truthful. In this case I would say I think her opinion would be thing problematic.



She probably doesn't have a problem cancelling JKR but... well personally I stopped with the idea of Power To The People when I realized people, en mass, are probably too stupid to have power.

And I think social media is a wonderful avenue we've never had before that does give power to the people. But most people are simple minded, closed minded, and stupid, so they can and do abuse that power.


People with the intelligence to understand better manipulate that power. As they have always done.

The only solution is for us to become less stupid. And that's not an easy task.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: viraldrome]
    #26803399 - 07/04/20 11:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viraldrome said:
Quote:

TheFakeSunRa said:
Both Jimmy Page and Robert Plant got huge passes.

Iggy Pop is another.




Iggy wrote a full on song about an underage groupie. I think Bowie had an underage g/f too if I'm not mistaken. Bringing this up in my 40 something age group gets people really defensive and mad as though everyone in the 70s banged minors or something....

Tom Jones seems to not only have gotten away with it but got the press not to talk about it, google Tom Jones + South Africa you get stuff like:

https://www.brongersma.info/Police_investigating_Sir_Tom_Jones_over_child_rape_allegations


Quote:

CookieCrumbs said:
Mark Wahlberg is hot and Kramer is not.




Kramer said he was just trying to be edgy though in a foul mouth stand up comic kind of way, he was new to stand up and when he got heckled he didn't know what to do. I won't say I feel bad for him but I think its time we let him back in.
Marky mark oth committed violent racial hate crimes and has never suffered in his career for it....




Don't think I'm justifying it. That sort of thing was exactly my point on page 2 or whatever.

Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby both only got attacked at old age. When they were perceived to be less powerful. (don't think I didn't think they deserved it, that's not the point.) Flack is likely to be thrown and gain attention in those that do not have all the power, that aren't part of the primary power class.

I think it was easier to talk shit about both because the media wasn't praising for them for their role in film or whatever. Meaning they had less ardent supporters.

And that's probably part of the Kramer thing too. He wasn't doing TV at the time and wasn't a beloved character in TV that people project their feelings onto.


There's a whole lot of psychology at play here when you ask "why him but not him?" or her.

And I can only guess at what that psychology is but:
It is proven without a doubt that people are more likely to think better of attractive people and are more likely to assume they didn't commit a crime

It is proven that people tend to jump to negative assumptions more often when the person is a minority

It's proven that people have less fond reactions to an idea (in this case a person) they haven't had positive interaction with in an extended period of time

It is a long tradition to excuse behavior in a male that would not be excused in a female (boys will be boys)

It is proven that people view wealthy white men who present their wealth in appearance are less likely to be viewed as vulnerable


None of this is at a conscious level. How can you logic someone through something they did not logically get themselves into?




Though... the hard thing about bringing up very old examples is just that just 10 years ago the climate was very different. Gay and faggot and rape jokes were a staple of the internet back then and widely used in comedy and rap. Now? Well, people call that awareness.
If the old age vulnerability theory holds up we'll probably have to wait another 10-20 years. To coincide with the increased awareness.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: lowbrow] * 2
    #26803501 - 07/04/20 12:25 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

lowbrow said:
Quote:

Amanita86 said:
What happened with Phil Anselmo?




See for yourself.





Bro, you’ve never screamed white power while having a white wine spritzer?  Come on now..


--------------------
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"They threw me off the hay truck about noon...":fishing:
:mushroom2:*Mark 15:34:levitate::mushroom2::blueninja:
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Amanita86]
    #26803676 - 07/04/20 02:16 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

That's Panterrible


--------------------
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