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InvisibleSARAtonin
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Separating an artist from their work. * 4
    #26792822 - 06/29/20 08:01 PM (8 days, 4 hours ago)

I feel like it’s getting harder and harder.

As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.

Terese Neilson (MtG and other fantasy artist), until very recently I would have called her my favorite artist, owning literally thousands of dollars of her work, from cards she did the artwork for to limited prints to actual artists proofs. That is until she was outed as a follower of alt right conspiracy theory, nationalism, and transphobic thought. Her “apology” was especially hurtful basically saying “I’m lesbian, I can’t be a bigot.”





More recently there has been the commotion around Harry Potter and J K Rowling’s constant need to remind us time after time he is a shitty person who is not an ally to our trans brothers and sisters. Bring of the time I was raised Harry Potter was a literally monument of my childhood and something I will always look upon positively despite how hard it’s getting.

And now to Space Jesus, who brings me to make this thread. Jasha Tull (Space Jesus) has just all but been arrested for having sex with MULTIPLE underage women. I have literally met Jasha and spent actually time with him and until now have thought of him as an ally I would always look up to.


This all said, how do you separate an artist from their work? Am I just a shitty person and an apologist or should a persons work speak separately from themselves?

Are their any artists who you find disagreeable who’s work you can’t but remain a fan of? How do you justify it?

THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL THREAD SO DO NOT TRY TO MAKE IT ONE!!!


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Edited by SARAtonin (06/29/20 08:12 PM)


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InvisiblezZZz
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26792848 - 06/29/20 08:10 PM (8 days, 4 hours ago)

an artist separates themselves from their own work


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OfflineLeningradCowboy
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: zZZz]
    #26792906 - 06/29/20 08:34 PM (8 days, 4 hours ago)

The Writer of dune, Herbert is homophopic mushroomhead:shrug:
I enjoy hes books.

Lovecraft is from another time when in basic books used to teach reading had N for nigger. So did my dad. This did not stop him of having black friends.
Another time, another ways.

I had chat about this yesterday with relative. Just skip/ignore the personal bs and enjoy the art is my opinion.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #26792920 - 06/29/20 08:47 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
This all said, how do you separate an artist from their work?




You don't, you can't
the most you can do is gauge how shitty they are
and how much that seeps into their work

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
Are their any artists who you find disagreeable who’s work you can’t but remain a fan of? How do you justify it?




Was a longtime fan of Philip Anselmo's vocals and lyrics with Pantera, Down, and some of Superjoint Ritual
was always loosely aware of him pushing narratives of shit like "well this is this is a White Day and They don't understand" in between songs
but never actually experienced that when seeing them live
then he was video recorded at the end of a show doing a Nazi salute and yelling out "White Power!" somewhere down in the South
and it made me realize he was not pushing his narrative on tour in Canada just because it was prolly a place he had figured out it does not play well

have not since then listened to any of his new music, and openly talk to people about my distaste for some of his actions outside his published art
and avoid further financial support of his work so he at least cannot employ my money to his ends
maybe the rest of the band are all still cool dudes who put up with him because he is a good singer and it sucks for them to lose out by association
but they choose who they wish to continue association with

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
Terese Neilson (MtG and other fantasy artist), until very recently I would have called her my favorite artist, owning literally thousands of dollars of her work, from cards she did the artwork for to limited prints to actual artists proofs. That is until she was outed as a follower of alt right conspiracy theory, nationalism, and transphobic thought. Her “apology” was especially hurtful basically saying “I’m lesbian, I can’t be a bigot.”




will not speak too much on this to avoid it skewing into political thought too deeply due to not being familiar with this artist
but this form of non-apology shows up a lot among TERFs -- alongside it is a sentiment that they cannot be bigoted towards trans women,
because they view trans women as men and men cannot be victims of bigotry
and this slides into an adjacency with trans men where they are viewed as targets to be harassed because they left the woman's fight for the side of the enemy

Recognize this was hurtful to hear out of an artist you respected using her shared status with you to try and claim justification of hurting others
:hug::heart:


Quote:

SARAtonin said:
More recently there has been the commotion around Harry Potter and J K Rowling’s constant need to remind us time after time he is a shitty person who is not an ally to our trans brothers and sisters. Bring of the time I was raised Harry Potter was a literally monument of my childhood and something I will always look upon positively despite how hard it’s getting.




Rowling ruined my entire pride month with one ignorant tweet and her defense of her ignorance in place of even attempting to learn and understand

but was not raised on Harry Potter, it was a little after my time
and could honestly make a lot of criticisms that the reason it got so much fame and attention
is because it minimized diversity throughout its storytelling
Rowling talks about how getting in to the industry she felt minimized because her publisher told her to use "J.K." instead of her name
because a female author would not sell as well
but she chose to write a series focused on a hereditarily powerful male character and his female friend who does his homework

grew up on Animorphs and Everworld by K.A. Applegate
another female writer who wrote fantasy
but her books were always diverse in terms of character cast
off the top of my head the group in Animorphs was a white boy, his white female cousin, a hispanic boy, a black girl, and a furry (he was a white boy but he just straight up decides he would rather ditch his abusive family and live as a hawk)

and have heard a lot of positive things about a new youth series called Percy Jackson
which deals with ADHD, trans issues and numerous others


and part of me is inclined to think that the main reason Rowling got so rich is because she catered to the main stream
at a time when other (female) writers were already exploring a more diverse cast
and perhaps had their work passed over for Rowling's easier-to-sell-to-bigots series right from the start

it is a sad thing to recognize that diversifying artistic work to accept minorities often alienates financially powerful groups in the majority


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InvisibleSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26792932 - 06/29/20 08:55 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Phil was also a huge heroin addict while acting like that. As we all have seen before,opiates can cause people to say some really disgusting things. I mean you never know, but I hit early dont think Phil is racist. The whole "white thing and they dknt understand" I think it was a more crude and maybe not the wisest way to call out inequality by trying to put it in the opposite perspective.  Music is everyone's thing and none should be excluded from it :smile:


--------------------
"Drink deep, or taste not, the plasma spring."


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26792947 - 06/29/20 09:01 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
As most of you know, I’m a rather fervent fan of the works of Howard Philip Lovecraft. Between using the N word 19 times in a short story to warning of “the Jew [who] must be muzzled” because “[he] insidiously degrades [and] Orientalizes [the] robust Aryan civilization,” it can undoubtedly be told that Lovecraft was an absolutely vile human. That said, his works and the Mythos that Lives are stronger and bigger than his petty shittiness.




So Lovecraft is arguably the most immediately offensive
the one off the top of my head that most integrated his shitty opinions into his work
and who almost undeniably impacted his sphere of art more than the others

but would also argue that his work benefitted from his hate

it is difficult to claim any work promoting hate benefits from that promotion of hate
but Lovecraft in particular was all about exploring the dark depths of (in)humanity
and what he externalized on to races allowed him to make a lot darker affirmations about the human race
there is a dual-edge to his attacks on other races -- it shows all the darkness he recognizes in humans externalized into a caricature rather than a character of isolateable personality
but by so doing it also unloads the equal degrees of darkness expressed in making those judgements

Lovecraft seems almost "fit" to pass judgement on the human race because he clearly has such difficult thinking of people as individuals

but another big thing about this is that it is really difficult to confront Lovecraft's work without confronting his racism
have multiple collections of his work, and each of them have a preface and numerous footnotes attesting to Lovecraft's racism and how they informed his work

this is the other area where Lovecraft becomes so important to examine
as a historical figure while the others are contemporary, his work is available to be published with these facts made available
the best you will get while Rowling is alive is a forward by her seeking to justify her exclusions in her own terms

but being historical it is also easier to distance oneself from the author in terms of emotional connection

being that the politics of the time influence things but do not totally define them
Lovecraft being racist even for his time
Rowlings transphobic opinions shown via public rating system to be less popular than their counters
it is important to not keep an artist apart from their views, as those views either openly or insidiously informing the works they produce


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SonicTitan]
    #26792949 - 06/29/20 09:02 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

SonicTitan said:
Phil was also a huge heroin addict while acting like that. As we all have seen before,opiates can cause people to say some really disgusting things. I mean you never know, but I hit early dont think Phil is racist. The whole "white thing and they dknt understand" I think it was a more crude and maybe not the wisest way to call out inequality by trying to put it in the opposite perspective.  Music is everyone's thing and none should be excluded from it :smile:




The "White Power" instance with the nazi salute was much more recent and since he has cleaned up and written songs about staying clean tho


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InvisibleSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26792953 - 06/29/20 09:03 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

How recent? I remember that happening before dimebsg was murdered  and Phil was hard in to junk then.

Edit: nvm just watched the video from 2016.. what the fuck this really saddens me...


--------------------
"Drink deep, or taste not, the plasma spring."


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Invisiblepachoo
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #26792964 - 06/29/20 09:07 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

I find that the truth is in the duality. Not saying that I don't think anything is wrong with what some people say or do. If it's morally wrong to myself and most of society, then it's wrong to me. It's just that... you know sometimes I take the salt with the sugar if I feel like I really do enjoy the art. It makes me feel weird and talk about it but in my core I still adore their works...

Like take Michael Jackson as another example... I wholeheartedly believe he did do it. Like.... come on. It came from something that was an illness in himself and I can find some sort of empathy in remaining emotionally unattached to the situation over time but there is no way I wouldn't put him above the victims. But I still will sing to some of his songs, out loud, and maybe even dance a little. The art moves me, but the knowledge of his allegations and what I feel make me feel ashamed to enjoying it. It doesn't make me support what he did, it shows I still enjoy his music and creativity.

You have to play with context alot, and it just comes from openly understanding the person's motives, their personal experiences, the times they were alive, etc. But it's hard to do without becoming emotionally attached. You have to discover for yourself, in remaining totally clear of it, if you personally do get satisfaction from their art still. If you do not, then you don't. You shouldn't feel like you need to support the internal workings of an artist to get enjoyment from their art. It's art. It speaks to you. It comes from them, but art speaks to the viewer or listener.



But also, who knows... I'm sure there's people who disagree with what I just said. I'm just learning as I go.


--------------------


:heartpump::heartpump: :heartpump::heartpump:


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin]
    #26792968 - 06/29/20 09:10 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

SARAtonin said:
And now to Space Jesus, who brings me to make this thread. Jasha Tull (Space Jesus) has just all but been arrested for having sex with MULTIPLE underage women. I have literally met Jasha and spent actually time with him and until now have thought of him as an ally I would always look up to.




Have no idea who Space Jesus is
but wanted to touch on this one independently
in part because Michael Jackson's music is so huge and so are the accusations against him

for me the instance of recalling this was Tripp Eisen from Static-X and (prior to that) Dope
guitarist, really interesting looking dude for a high school girl
turned out that was his schtick :evilpuke:

the part that is hard for me is his work was on guitars, and most of my love of music is in lyrics and vocals
so it is difficult to resist going back to content I enjoy for other reasons
then being reminded what a shitty dude he is
but he was also kicked out of the band (before the lead singer ended up dying...) so it was also possible to continue supporting their work without supporting him
and think that is a variation that depends a lot on what type of music the person does and how central they are to it

but, either way,
this shows up a number of times
also wanna say there has been a lot of controversy in Canada of late of a singer from a band named Hedly or someshit
with underage girls or general sexual assault

think it is a lot easier to seperate most of a pedophiles legal agenda from their musical work in terms of influence
but think it is also a lot more difficult, as well

at what point does one have to accept the possibility that what they did was not for a love of the art but for exposure to the crowd they wanted to sexually exploit
as previously stated, Tripp was all the stereotypes of attracting young Hot Topic goth girls to him
and pursued a career that made it easy for him to travel from city to city and meet underage girls


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Offlineichugwindex
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: LeningradCowboy]
    #26792972 - 06/29/20 09:14 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

The art means whatever it means to you. Yes separate the work from the artist.


--------------------
Only hope can give rise to the emotion we call despair. But it is nearly impossible for a man to try to live without hope, so I guess that leaves Man no choice but to walk around with despair as his companion.


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OfflineThe Blind AssS
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: ichugwindex]
    #26792974 - 06/29/20 09:15 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Everyone’s a monster.  Some just learn to express it more healthily than others.


--------------------
The actuality of all experience is like a dream
and in its momentary groundless gleaming,
undeniably perceptible, it is uncrystallizing light-form,
a deceitful flash, a diaphanous form of emptiness.
Yet delving deeply we find neither truth nor falsehood,
for neither present nor absent, it is beyond all conception;
we know it like the sky, inexpressible, unimaginable,
fundamentally ever fresh and pristine.


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InvisibleTantrika
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SonicTitan]
    #26792978 - 06/29/20 09:16 PM (8 days, 3 hours ago)

Quote:

SonicTitan said:
How recent? I remember that happening before dimebsg was murdered  and Phil was hard in to junk then.

Edit: nvm just watched the video from 2016.. what the fuck this really saddens me...




:hug:

When they played There's Something On My Side opening for Black Sabbath in Montréal around 2007
it was one of the most amazing concert experiences that totally drew me in to the moment
with just everything feeling so complete and loud and yes

so yeah, am also saddened -- as stated, try not to let it spoil his previous work for me because he did not (openly) push his agenda through it
but do not feel comfortable financially supporting them moving forward, so likely will not see them again
and will have to patch up my t-shirts and hoodies rather than replace them :lol:

but it should be noted, and perhaps has been too minimized through my posts so far
but a personal connection to artistic work can do a lot to mitigate concerns when willing to speak out against those beliefs
it has been meaningful to me to be able to own my frustration over Phil's more recent racism
to be able to recognize "I love this work about being buried in pot after my death, but I would not bring about my death defending ideas of racial superiority over others"


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InvisibleSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Tantrika]
    #26793098 - 06/29/20 09:59 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Pantera was a different phil not the phil today. You could tell they were all just havi g fun with everyone. This is so sad seeing that shit from Phil.

Pantera were all about partying  and having a good time and playing some heavy music. Dime must be rolling g over in his grave.


--------------------
"Drink deep, or taste not, the plasma spring."


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InvisibleAhab McBathsalts
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SonicTitan] * 7
    #26793103 - 06/29/20 10:01 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

I don't give a fuck. Thriller was the best album ever made.





--------------------
"Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's going to die."


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: SARAtonin] * 2
    #26793107 - 06/29/20 10:03 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

This is a difficult and longstanding debate with no clear answers.

Terrible, awful people have produced truly great works of art. Masterpieces even. The artwork to a certain degree is separate from it's creator, but it's also not separate.

How much purity do we want or need out of the author of a great work? What about the authors we know nothing about? Should we assume that their works and lives were good on the basis that we simply don't know? What does that say about how we react to the authors whose lives we do know about?

I think it depends on the quality of the work, and just how evil exactly its creator was. If the work is not evil, and if it's a true masterpiece, then I don't think that it's creator being truly evil has any impact on it. But if the work is merely pretty good or very good, and if the author is truly evil, then maybe it does have some impact. And likewise, if the work is merely mediocre, then I think throwing it away on the basis of the author's life might be justified. I would like to believe that works are totally independent of their creator, but I myself have stopped listening to music because I so totally hated its creator.

There's an important difference though in talking about this in the present day versus talking about it historically. Anyone born in any time is never free from the culture and biases of the time and place they were born in. If we demand that people who lived in the 1600s conform to our modern morality, then we're not going to be able to read anything from that time period at all. Even more so if we're talking works from Rome or ancient Greece.

But people who lived in ancient time periods at least had an excuse: they were the product of a culture and a time that they were unable to escape from. They would naturally reflect the prejudices and biases of their time period even if they didn't want to. If we're going to judge them, I think it gets closer to the truth to look at where they stood relative to what was going on during the time period they lived through. If we refuse to admire classical artwork unless its artist was pure by modern standards, then we're not going to be able to enjoy really much of anything prior to 1900.

An artist in the modern day, on the other hand, is a totally different story. They know better, or should know better. They have opportunity and perspective that people living hundreds of years ago didn't have. If they choose to back something like white supremacist ideology, that is a hundred times more damning than if someone believed some kind of supremacist ideology in 1000 AD. They should know better, they live in the modern day and undoubtedly have learned about and been exposed to things like the civil rights movement, ideas about equality, all of that kind of stuff.

Undoubtedly, people from hundreds or thousands of years from now will look back at us as barbarians and savages. Does that mean that all of the artwork produced by our culture should be discarded in the future? If so, then the future will perpetually have no past, no tradition, no great classical masterpieces. Art will instead only have a present. It won't even have a future because the future will discard the past.

On the other hand, if someone was truly a monster, then I have a hard time enjoying their work knowing that. But again, it depends on the greatness of the work, and just how much of a monster they were, and it also depends on the time period and culture they were born into.


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: Ahab McBathsalts]
    #26793108 - 06/29/20 10:04 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

It's easiest when you realize basically everyone is a terrible person.


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          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 2
    #26793111 - 06/29/20 10:06 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Charles manson had some ideas that I agree with.

Shit half the modern marvels of science come from Nazis.



Bad people can have good ideas and you can respect the idea without respecting the person.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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Offlinespirit_shadow
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #26793136 - 06/29/20 10:13 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

Daaamn. Good thread :thumbup: that is a famn good question. I am playing mtg with 3 friends as we speak :/


Edit: I'd say as long as the art is purchased secondhand(ebay, thrift store, etc) and not contributing to a racist etc. It would be ok, that's just my take cos I am a fan of  mtg and Harry Potter:p


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InvisibleSonicTitan
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Re: Separating an artist from their work. [Re: spirit_shadow] * 1
    #26793169 - 06/29/20 10:23 PM (8 days, 2 hours ago)

I listen to Wagner and really enjoy his orchestral pieces without the opera singing (not a fan of a lot of opera)
I dont feel like the music is to be seen as anti semitic. (Tho he was an anti semetic trashbag)

James Brown was a piece of shit who beat the shit out of women and notorious prick to his band but everyone loves his music. We shouldn't let his personal life affect the art that came out.

Miles Davis was an angry man, drug addict and allegedly would abuse his wife or girlfriend at the time.  His music wasn't a representation of his personal life.

We may as well burn all the paintings over the last 700 years or whatever because a lot of the art back then was probably created by people with a lot views that would be majorly conflicting to how we see society.

It's a really hard one to not hold resentment to someone you once were inspired by after finding out about some dark truths about the person.

Now if we are talking about shit like NSBM (National Socialist Black Metal) then they can fuck the hell off.


Edited by SonicTitan (06/29/20 10:32 PM)


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* Bill Hicks was WAY better then "Kramer" at dealing with hecklers *VIDEO* EmperorKuzco 2,845 15 12/10/06 06:52 PM
by killme

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